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Seville
20-01-2010, 08:28
I currently play Warriors of Chaos. I figure in a few months I will be as done as I'd like to be with constructing that army.

And, in true addict fashion, I'd like to start a new one once that's done. I've had my eye on Empire and Orcs for a while now, but I got to thinking High Elves might be fun, too.

I like the models. I think they present a lot of fun painting opportunities. Especially since my Chaos army is so "ugly". It might be a nice change of pace to do something pretty.

I also like that they can participate in all phases of the game. And their powerful magic seems like it might be fun.

Any thoughts? If you play High Elves, do you enjoy it? What builds do you find to be both fun and effective?

Thanks a lot.

ChaosVC
20-01-2010, 09:00
Love it, like you I started off with VC and chaos so most of the tactics I learn and practice are offensive manuveurs, I started thinking I want an all rounder army and stared DE during 6th ed 5 yrs ago which is very fun and refreshing. This makes me start empire and highelves, because they have the option of doing the same thing with different combos.

A few points these armies share is that they are,

1.) Generaly more squishy, (high elves being the most)
2.) Relatively small in size and number (with the exception of empire)
3.) And you can play all of the phases in the game.

Since your question is high elves here are the things you may want to know.

Unlike empire and darkelves, highelf is generally a smaller and more elite army so to fight the enemy on equall terms on the open field will generally put you in a disadvantage because you can't really afford to take much causalties and you have lesser units to manuveour.

So terrian to you is your best ally when it comes to attacking or defending.
Your best assets are troops and items that allow you to move thru difficult terrian with no penalty so you can either surprise your enemies (effective only once) or allow you troops more option to manuveur easily in terrian where you oponents would have been easily bog down. All this will give you all the advantage you need to find cover under fire when advancing or fight against a larger army in a smaller frontline thanks to terrian.

Combine these with your fire power which is moderately powerful and magic and you can play a relatively balance all rounder army capable of both offensive and defensive actions.

And this is just one of the many things that make Highelves a fun army to play with(IMHO the most fun tactic). I am pretty sure there are other more fun tactics to employ with the high elf armylist but the rest is really up to you to discover them. Good luck.

BigbyWolf
20-01-2010, 09:09
If you like going first, then they're the army for you! They stike first, I think they have something that boosts their chances of getting first turn, and they always finish first in exams...swots...

On a more serious note, I've not played as HE for a few years, but have always like the idea of the highly-trained, spotlessly dressed units (despite the dresses). They get bigger dragons than most people, and the extra rare/ special slots mean you can heavily theme your army with ease. They're good in combat, have good cavalry, and the shooting ain't too bad either. As for magic...they can have Teclis...

Since the new book came out I've been toying with the idea of a Chracian/Shadow Warrior army, but have never got round to it due to an overwhelming desire to play "evil" (with the exception of OnG of course), and an aversion to armies with T no greater than 3...

Nuada
20-01-2010, 09:28
I'm having trouble with High Elves. My first army is Orcs and Goblins, an aggressive hand to hand horde army. I've had two games with my new high elves, and i'm very close to selling them.

Maybe it's because they're too defensive for me. Maybe it was just the game. Maybe my list is wrong for me. Not sure. I'm struggling to find any joy with them at the moment.

Orcboy_Phil
20-01-2010, 09:33
Not really, there a little two perfect. I find my Dark Elves and Lizardmen far more fun to play with (not as fun as Skaven though). Heck even my O&G's are more fun in a frustrating die stupid wolfriders bikkering again and lossing me the game kinda way.

Alathir
20-01-2010, 10:34
I definitely think so. I've been playing them for about two years now and have been very rewarded with my time with them. I field a Yvressian force based around 2-3 units of Spearmen (with no Dragon Princes as my Prince is common-born) and the amount of fluff I've developed around the force has really added to my games. The only downside being that you feel your defeats all the more because of the elven race being on the decline, not like with Skaven when you can laugh off a massacre if you took out two a Dwarf Thane - that's a win!

So yeah, I definitely recommend High Elves, nothing cooler than a glittering host in scale armour marching to war in disciplined phalanxes. See for yourself! (http://s55.photobucket.com/albums/g124/toBIASFTY/?action=view&current=FinalArmyShot.jpg)

barlio
20-01-2010, 14:32
The great thing about High Elves is that you can build an army that is capable of strongly contributing to each phase. This was one thing that really appealed to me when I played them. Granted I started with the Empire so going from men to elves wasn't an overly drastic change (I started with 6th edition HEs).

I played a more balanced list with a little for each phase, but from what I've read and seen with more successful players is that you need to focus on either Magic, Shooting, or Close Combat. As awesome as it is to have ranks up ranks of shiny spears and curved bows; they ultimately going to get swept aside by a strong wind. Focusing on a specific phase gives you more control.

Good luck

Cerraand
20-01-2010, 14:39
I like them, but I find them so unforgiving at times... for exemple, they are supposed to be very disciplined, but if you do fail the panic test at LD8 you can lose a unit, that hurts since nothing is expendable and everything is needed.

like chaosVC said, playing in all the phases is pretty fun, especially when you can pack a lot of damage (or threats) in every one of them

they are a quite customizable force, making it possible to change to taste of your list at almost every game

Tolinwiz
20-01-2010, 16:55
High Elves to me represent an army that can really build a multitude of lists and be competitive with all of them.

Feel like going magic heavy? Can succeed well.

Feel like going Cav/Chariot heavy? Yep, sure can.

Feel like going shooting heavy? Yep, can do that.

Feel like doing a weird theme army that involves Lions only? Yep

Dragons? Yep

Mages guarded by sword masters? Yep

For me, it's an army that doesn't tend to get old, because as soon as I get tired running one list I can just re-write a new one, totally different, be "themey" and still compete.

Hell, you could run 10 chariots in 2250 if you wanted to....and dominate ;)

UberBeast
20-01-2010, 16:58
High Elves were my first army, and I always enjoyed playing them. There are deffinately some painting possibilities if you're willing to get away from white, silver, and blue.

The Red Scourge
20-01-2010, 17:13
Its probably the least interesting army - tactics wise - of the elven armies. And it sadly lacks a little in internal balance.

But this is game all about models, and as long as you like them, I say: Go for it! :)

Seville
20-01-2010, 17:46
Thanks for the comments, guys.

Yes, I've heard from a friend that it can be a tactically limited army - the Speed of Assuryan actually concerns me a lot. He said there is just about no incentive to participate much in the movement phase of the game because you always strike first anyway. Any thoughts?

So, would a build like this be any good to start? Or am I totally off? And are the sorcerers better mounted or on foot?

3 Sorcerers

2 x 25 Spearmen

2 x 12 Archers

2 x Bolt Throwers

1 x 10 Dragon Princes

1 x 10 Swordmasters

1 x Lion Chariot

barlio
20-01-2010, 19:37
Core: Spearmen are best 6-7 wide. You could have 2 Units with 18 Spearmen (6x3) and be ok. I always found my Bolt Throwers were capable of earning their points back. Archers not so much, but massed Archer fire should kill lightly armored troops well enough. Using Archers against Rank and File frees up your Bolt Throwers for the more juicy targets.

Special: Well you would be better served to have your Dragon Princes in two units of 5. 12 Swordmasters with Full Command is a little better than just 10. Lion Chariot is a beast by itself, but does wonders when charging into a flank.

Characters: 3 Sorcerors should be fine in games less than 2000, but over when you get past the 2000pt mark you should consider adding an Archmage or Elf Prince. Even the Princes are capable of accessing a bit of magic.

The Red Scourge
20-01-2010, 19:41
Lion Chariot is a beast by itself, but does wonders when charging into a flank.

At US4 it hardly makes a difference what side it charges :rolleyes:

enyoss
20-01-2010, 20:24
Yes, I've heard from a friend that it can be a tactically limited army - the Speed of Assuryan actually concerns me a lot. He said there is just about no incentive to participate much in the movement phase of the game because you always strike first anyway. Any thoughts?


My thoughts are: disagree completely!

With a half decent opponent, any High Elf general who simply sits on his ass not moving will have it handed back to him. If you don't make the most of your movement phase you will get outmanoeuvred and shot to ribbons very quickly. This is exacerbated by the fact that you will no doubt be outnumbered unit-wise by your opponent, and don't have great defence against missile fire for your high cost troops.

Ok, so there are instances when you are at a disadvantage charging with High Elves. However, there are also countless other instances when you need to engage the enemy to fight the fight on your own terms.

Examples where you need to charge or actively engage your enemy might be:

1 - I need a unit to win in one combat this turn, so I can support another combat next turn.
2 - Enemy units are lurking everywhere, and I need to engage and win quickly before I get flanked in subsequent turns. This one happens a lot.
3 - I am being shot at. Seriously, you won't be waiting around with your swordmasters for long, I promise.
4 - I get a bonus for charging. Dragon Princes are actually pretty bad if you just let your opponent charge them, believe it or not :).
5 - Get away from your board edge! If you sit near the back you're just asking to lose a unit off the board due to panic, a unit you can't afford to lose. Unsurprisingly, moving closer to your opponent means that points 1-4 are then more likely to kick in.

As for the internal balance issue, I'd say that with the exception of Silverhelms, High Elves are one of the most internally balanced books of the lot. Really, there are just so many viable builds using almost any combination of units that you'd have to have pretty chronic ADHD to get bored quickly.

Above all though, the best thing about the High Elves is their background! That's what made me fall in love with these guys 15 years ago, and I've never looked back :).

DarkMark
20-01-2010, 21:02
Have a VERY good look at the DE book before you decide to go with HE. You could paint up an HE force, if your preference is the models, in dark colours which would allow you to use your army as either DE or HE.

Your list looks ok, though I'd try to squeeze in an eagle too.

Shadow_Steed
20-01-2010, 21:56
As a High Elf player myself I can make a little list of pros and cons for you.

Pros+
+Expensive in points which means you can get a 2000 pts army rather fast without having to paint a thousand models.
+Good background, I almost always root for the High Elfs in fluff etc, I don't think I an alone in that regard. However this is of course very individual but for me it is a big+
+Some of the best troops in the game, Swordmasters, Dragon Princes etc, it is really awesome to see 12 Swordmasters cave a bloody path through a unit of Chaos Warriors.
+Variation in the list, you can go with a very defensive army with lots of Bolt Throwers and Archers etc or a fighting-heavy army with White Lions, Chariots, Swordmasters etc.
+Good heroes, a lot of cool different mage and commander models, with good stats to match.

Cons-
-Always Strike First rule, this rule makes for less tactical thinking and thats one of the biggest cons I see in this army.
-Older models, many models are not that great when compared to the Dark Elf range for example. All cavalry(except the chariots, whom are awesome) and most of the infantry are old not very good looking models. Compare Dragon Princes to Cold One Knights. This is of course also highly individual.
-Overpowered, the High Elf army has an advantage over other armies due to a powerful new 7 ed book so beware to not make to powerful army lists.

As you can see the pros clearly outweigh the cons, and hopefully we will see some new High Elf cavalry in the summer!

enyoss
20-01-2010, 22:05
-Older models, many models are not that great when compared to the Dark Elf range for example. All cavalry(except the chariots, whom are awesome) and most of the infantry are old not very good looking models. Compare Dragon Princes to Cold One Knights. This is of course also highly individual.


I'd agree with this. I was lucky enough to get all my archers, spearmen and cavalry models before 6th edition plastic kits and 5th edition Gary Morley horses, which are all absolutely dire. In fact, those models would be a real turn off for me now if I was to start again, although I'm sorry to say it.

Witchblade
20-01-2010, 22:06
Decent internal balance, variety of possible lists, options in all phases of the game, good (not great) models, but a major tactical demotivator with the ASF garbage.

It depends on what kind of list you want to run (e.g. infantry lists are boring with ASF) and how much you value the tactics of the movement phase.

selone
20-01-2010, 23:21
Speed of Asuryan does NOT mean they have have low incentive to compete in the movemnt phase, it's pretty much as enyoss says.
Myself I like the HE army a lot, it does compete in all phases quite well. It suffers from not having some of the options the DE army has and not being as unique as wood elves and has (like most armies) some clearly better and worse choices. HElves will get better if core choices get better :)

Alathir
20-01-2010, 23:35
I think its just a myth that's been perpetuated around these forums that High Elves don't ever need to worry about movement and that the games involving them offer no sense of tactics. Its what it looks like on paper, and I think many people here whine more than they play. What I have discovered is indeed the exact opposite, as enyoss says. I have also found that the opposing player is encouraged to think doubly hard about his movement phase; he doesn't want to charge those Black Orcs right into the White Lions so how is he going to manoeuvre the rest of his army so that they have adequate support when he does charge?

Do you really think that if I just sit there with my Spearmen and Phoenix Guard that they aren't going to be completely overwhelmed by the enemy? I find myself on the aggressive anyway as my army works in tandem with my Tiranoc Chariots so combo charges are extremely important to my strategy.

enyoss
21-01-2010, 00:25
Tandem charges are probably the biggest incentive for charging, I can't believe I forgot that one! It's the best way to ensure you don't get stuck in those protracted `war of attrition' combats which HE hate.

@ Shadow_steed and Alathir: I was starting to think I was some crazy with off-the-wall beliefs, it's nice to know someone else agrees with me! :D

Seville
21-01-2010, 01:07
I really do appreciate everyone taking time out of their busy days to offer me comments and advice. Thank you.

I guess the only place where I could see a need for tactical maneuvering being limited is that the HE essentially do not need to bait anyone. Sure, you can't just sit back and wait for charges, but, at the same time, you can pretty much just run up into your opponent's face and from there either sit back and accept the charge or charge at your leisure. There's no need to be really slick with your movement and play the whole "do you have 8" there? Do you feel lucky, punk?" game with your opponents because it simply doesn't matter. In fact, with spearmen, you have all the reason in the world to accept the charge, usually.

But having said that, for those of you who have actually used High Elves (as opposed to just reading about them on Warseer), do you find that that aspect of the army limits your enjoyment?

Also, do you find that you have a lot of fun with the magic phase of the game? This, maybe more than anything, is what appeals to me about the army. I really like their mastery of magic, and High Magic has some neat-o spells.

Also, where could I find some fun / effective sample builds?

Thanks, guys!

ChaosVC
21-01-2010, 01:40
I definitely think so. I've been playing them for about two years now and have been very rewarded with my time with them. I field a Yvressian force based around 2-3 units of Spearmen (with no Dragon Princes as my Prince is common-born) and the amount of fluff I've developed around the force has really added to my games. The only downside being that you feel your defeats all the more because of the elven race being on the decline, not like with Skaven when you can laugh off a massacre if you took out two a Dwarf Thane - that's a win!

So yeah, I definitely recommend High Elves, nothing cooler than a glittering host in scale armour marching to war in disciplined phalanxes. See for yourself! (http://s55.photobucket.com/albums/g124/toBIASFTY/?action=view&current=FinalArmyShot.jpg)

Strangely you and I have the same main colour for our HE but I like your scheme alot more, very beautiful.

Seville, despite being a more experience chaos warrior player in which manuveuring is a very important thing for the army to succeed. I definately disaggree with alot of people here who claims that High elves tactically limited(as in easier to play or whatever they mean), but I will agree that their tactical advantage options are limited being a high cost, low toughness and lightly amoured army, so some people will go dragon heavy easy for an easy way out.

Infact, having a relatively smaller army then most armies, manuveuring becomes more important and asf while very good is still not enough to cover the weakness of high elves generally being a low toughness and frail army, you may dominate against lighter troops but you will have little advantage against any cheaper but tougher or heavier armoured troops type, even with asf.

But of course thats just my opinnion based on experience, I actually lost alot of games before I start to learn how to use them properly.

TheSanityAssassin
21-01-2010, 03:43
As a High Elf player I have always still found the movement phase critical. The level of play in my area is VERY high, with a couple former Canadian GT champions frequently involved, I can say from experience that if you just sit there and wait to get charged you will get POUNDED.

The trick to tactical movement with High Elves, to me at least is less about baiting and fleeing and the like (though turning things to flank charges from Chariots or Banner of Elyrion cav is great), and more about position. The fact that you don't have to be worried about being charged is to me less encouragement to be static and defensive, and more a reason to be aggressive with your movement. One of my favorite tactics is to drive my infantry forward very aggressively and pay careful attention to their angles and the lanes between them. Do things like slamming one of your infantry units somewhere where it sits an inch and a half away from a big enemy unit, cranked on as much of an angle as possible without giving up a flank. Float a unit of cavalry or some chariots (or more infantry) just around charge range to the side of your unit. At this point your foe's block is so tightly hemmed in he can't effectively disengage, and you can keep him marched blocked and tied up unless he charges, in which case he'll hopefully get stuck on your unit and counter charged by another unit. This works great in conjunction with Courage of Aenarion to hem in really beaty enemy units, as your elves will still have trouble with tough or heavily armoured things. (Though Great Weapon Nobles help a LOT).

You can also use this idea to be very crafty with your pursuit angles....think you'll break a foe in one round? Force him to charge you in that fashion, with your unit angled in such a way that pursuit will take you to striking distance of a vital part of his army.

There are also some cool things you can do with odd variant army lists. One of my favorites was the "ReaverStar", which was a unit of 8 Ellyrion Reavers with a Prince and BSB with banner of Ellyrion on unbarded steeds. Suddenly you have 7 S6 attacks, still with decent saves from other equipment, able to move like fast cav and charge 18" through terrain. Yeah, it's probably not the best unit you could make in the book, but it can take people quite heavily off guard, and won me a fair bit of success.

As for magic, your phase to me is all about control, rather than all out blastiness (though you can just take a blasty fire Archmage, I don't feel it's the best use). Your magic defense should be one of the best in the game with lots of great items to help protect your fragile troops from enemy spells, and a decent bit of magic resistance, but it's High Magic itself that shines for me. While the spell list has some nasty offensive spells like Fury of Khaine and the dreaded Flames of the Phoenix, the strength of it is the "control/augment" spells. Curse of Arrow Attraction makes those slightly overpriced Archers start being very deadly to small units, and can make Bolt Throwers brutal even at long range. Vaul's Unmaking can often have people holding on to dispel dice in fear, allowing you to blast out with a hidden bound spell (putting Ring of Fury on a Non-Caster is great for this), and can really take over if you start breaking big things like Banner of Hag Grief. Courage of Aenarion can be massively handing for doing things like holding a big unit up with some Archers, or being able to charge a chariot into a ranked unit, do some damage and then hold for a turn. My personal favorite is Shield of Saphery. I always default spells down to this for both my Archmage and my LV2....You can very often get it off, as people are fearful to throw dice at a first level spell with other stuff still waiting, and the ability to put a 5+ ward save on Swordsmasters against shooting, or Spearmen going into combat is a real game-changer.

Then of course Drain Magic. You have to be very careful with your use of this I find...sometimes it's better NOT to cast it against VERY casty armies. I've been bit on the butt a few times by raising casting costs to a a higher level, only to find my opponent can still cast them, and I no longer have the dice to reliably dispel. Know what spells your opponent has/will cast before letting this one loose. It's great for suddenly making low level spells need 2 dice, but a bit less reliable on stopping the mid-high (9-10) casting spells.


That's about all I can think of right now. Just to reiterate what has been said before, my greatest fondness for this army comes from fluff and versatility in army builds.

kaubin
21-01-2010, 04:01
I don`t like high elves specifically for the same reason that everyone likes them. The fluff makes them out to be way too `good` and `riteous` for me, and I have quirks for things that are too perfect. The models don`t appeal to me either, and army wide ASF is something I don`t enjoy playing with or against. High Elves are possibly the last army I would pick up, especially since the only thing I did enjoy about the army no longer exists, the Everqueen and her attendants. But as you can see, a lot of other people do enjoy it, so it really depends on how you feel towards this army and how you react towards it. I recommend trying a proxied game with models you currently have before going out and buying some models to see if they are really fun, game play wise, if the fluff and the models appeal to you.

TheSanityAssassin
21-01-2010, 04:12
Ahh....that was the comment I forgot to make. The Prince/Noble kit is FANTASTIC for kit-bashing together plastic versions of other units. I built my full unit of Dragon Princes and White Lions out of Spearmen/Silver Helms mixed with left over Prince, Noble and Chariot bits I either had myself or purchased for very cheap off of other players who hadn't used those options. Find yourself a few people with Tiranoc Chariots and a few extra spearmen and Bam! There's some sweet plastic White Lions....

ChaosVC
21-01-2010, 04:28
Yep the Prince/noble kit is the one that inspire me to redo my entire highelves army. Basically all the new plastic models even the wizards are good to have. But building an entire of white lions units with the new chariots bits is very costly. You my friend is either very dedicated or very rich. The last time I did something like that to make my chaos warriors look cool with all the expensive plastic bits...I have to eat grass for a few months.

TheSanityAssassin
21-01-2010, 04:47
Yep the Prince/noble kit is the one that inspire me to redo my entire highelves army. Basically all the new plastic models even the wizards are good to have. But building an entire of white lions units with the new chariots bits is very costly. You my friend is either very dedicated or very rich. The last time I did something like that to make my chaos warriors look cool with all the expensive plastic bits...I have to eat grass for a few months.

I was a Grey Knight with Games Workshop Canada at the time and got all my models for free (to a limit of course) :angel: That spawned the Dragon Princes

The Lions came from LOTS of bit scrounging for the Axes and Cloaks that were not getting used when people built Tiranoc chariots instead of Lion Chariots.

Seville
21-01-2010, 05:41
Cool. Thanks Sanity and Chaos.

Which do you guys like? The Lion Chariots or the Tiranoc Chariots?

Phoenix Guard or Swordmasters? At a glance, Swordmasters look like the better unit.

I think the one thing that is bugging me about the army is the abundance of metal models... wish there was more plastic.

ChaosVC
21-01-2010, 07:18
No Prob Seville,

Both are useful in their own way but are generally good suport and count medium cav(T3 2+saves) units. While Tiranoc are lighter and cheaper, they have their limitation as to what they can deal with and are best use for support charges, budgets choices. Lion chariots are obviously more expensive but are much more devasting in a charge, in a good day, they can take out blocks of light infantry on their own easily with a frontal charges but being chariot, you are risking getting blown up first turn by a freaking canon ball, so being more expensive, the lion chariot is relatively less expandable then the Tiranoc.

For Phoenix guard and swordmaster haha, I am afraid I have yet to try out the Phoenix guard because I don't own them yet and would love to know how other High elves players use them myself. Personnally I use both Swordmaster and White lions, of the 3 special elite infantry.

I like white lion the best because they are sturbon, they pack a punch at str 6 and they can move thru woods easily. This gives you a huge defensive advantage for both offensive and defensive actions. You can advance your troops thru forest to clear enemy scouts and attack their position behind a forest while benefiting from the cover from shooting or you can take position inside a forest with other troops near by as support to force your opponent to fight against your smaller army in a smaller battle front. White lions also get +2 amour save bonus on top of their heavy armour against all shooting attacks.

Swordmaster on the other hand is your all rounder elite infantry, they are very good against most medium and light troops, in the words of dota "Dominating!". The 2 x str 5 asf attack will discourage people from charging them but believe me, these guys are best kept as reserve and hidden until they are needed for a counter offensive, unless you have screening troops they should not be left in the open. T3 5+ heavy armour makes them easy target to magic and shooting and anything with impact hits can be their worst nightmare.

As for Phoenix guards, to be honest, I have never used them before, but having only a single str 4 attack, they are really not much of a fighting unit but with fear and numbers, they can be pretty powerful...and sadly... also cost a bomb. They are probably best used as secondary Tar pits like their White lion buddies because they all have 4+ wardsave on top of their heavy armour.

Kloud13
21-01-2010, 07:38
Try out a unit of Seaguard as one of your Core choices. These guys can do some amazing things from time to time.

Fast Cav, Don't leave home without them.

ASF does NOT mean sit back and wait. A nasty and horribly wrong train of thought among non-HE players is that because you have ASF you do not need to worry about movement. WRONG WRONG WRONG. It is extremly important as a HE to use you very good movement to decide when and where the close combat is going to happen.

Eagles are always good to take in an all-comers list. sometimes they get shot down early an do nothing, sometimes they force the early release of fanatics that proceed to devestate an OnG army. They are really the cheapest thing in your army, and closest thing to a disposable unit.

Lion Chariots are awesome IF they get into combat. Most likely they will attract every missile in your opponents arsenal. Tiranoc's can be quite a surprise to your opponent as the 18" charge is alot for a chariot.

Shadow_Steed
21-01-2010, 10:58
I really do appreciate everyone taking time out of their busy days to offer me comments and advice. Thank you.

1)But having said that, for those of you who have actually used High Elves (as opposed to just reading about them on Warseer), do you find that that aspect of the army limits your enjoyment?

2)Also, do you find that you have a lot of fun with the magic phase of the game? This, maybe more than anything, is what appeals to me about the army. I really like their mastery of magic, and High Magic has some neat-o spells.

Also, where could I find some fun / effective sample builds?

Thanks, guys!

1) I think that the ASF-rule can be quite boring, although it is not all that good when facing certain armies, cavalry heavy armies for example, lets say your 18 Spearmen is charged by a Lance of 9 Bretonnian Knights, you will strike first and possibly killing one or two(if your lucky) knights, then they will trash your unit anyway as they would with a non-ASF unit.

When facing other mainly infantry armies I can find it a bit of a strategy-killer, for example, it does not matter if you charge or get charged by a unit of Chaos Warriors, both units will strike at the same values anyway.

In general I don't really think this is something that makes the army less fun,unless it gives you a huge advantage, and this depends on what army you are facing etc. It is never fun to totally outclass an enemy.

2)Yes, I forgot to stress this in my previous post, the High Elf magic phase is great, since they can choose between their own High Magic and the rest of the 8 Lores you can always experiment with new magic combos and lores etc. The High Elves also have a great range of magic items, also giving you a lot to experiment with. In conclusion the High Elf magic phase is really great!

DarkMark
21-01-2010, 11:26
I've read here that 'pointy ears' are rumoured to be in the next starter box, which could influence your decision.

I'm not too hot on item names etc, but a rough list would probably look something like this:

Lords

Your choice really but I'd definately take a dragon as the kit is so cool:p

Core

1x block of Spearmen
2x 10 Seaguard (for utility)

Special

6-8 SM
1x WL
1x chariot
1x big unit of DPs with that movement banner: Ellyrion?

Rare

2x RBT
2x eagles

:)

Kayosiv
21-01-2010, 11:39
All the high elf special infantry is good. Swordmasters for killiness and white lions for stubborn, mobility, and protection against shooting.

Phoenix guard have several advantages though, despite being the weakest of the elites offensivly. 4+ ward save is amazing, and that's on top of heavy armor. They are so resilient against shooting your opponent likely won't bother, letting them advance up the field at full strength, and if they do bother, they are waisting their shots so that's good too. This makes them a great place to hide casters or nobles with super-bows.

Leadership 9 fear causing. The white lions biggest stumbling block is fear because it ignores stubborn, not so with Phoenix guard. They have fear and are thus immune to it, as well as the possibility of making opponents fail charges or hit on 6's. They are the only high elf Infantry with leadership 9, making them less likely to panic than the other 2 units.

Their combat skill is the worst but it is almost impossible to score kills on them. White lions and Sword Masters still only have 5+ saves in combat. The Phoenix Guard are literally twice as durable.

If you need to protect a hero, hold a flank against fear causers or chariots/large monsters, or tar pit a dangerous unit, they are one of the best units in the game.

marv335
21-01-2010, 12:14
I'm having trouble with High Elves. My first army is Orcs and Goblins, an aggressive hand to hand horde army. I've had two games with my new high elves, and i'm very close to selling them.



It takes far longer than two games to learn how to use a new army, You need to give it a bit longer to see what works for you.




Yes, I've heard from a friend that it can be a tactically limited army - the Speed of Assuryan actually concerns me a lot. He said there is just about no incentive to participate much in the movement phase of the game because you always strike first anyway. Any thoughts?

Rubbish, that's the sort of whining we get from the elf haters.
If you don't choose your combats, you'll be overwhelmed by any half way competent general.
You want to be going after the flanks and rear of units to make up for the lack of ranks on your elite units (because they get expensive very quickly)
SOA should not make a huge difference, because your main offensive units should be charging.



So, would a build like this be any good to start? Or am I totally off? And are the sorcerers better mounted or on foot?

3 Sorcerers

2 x 25 Spearmen

2 x 12 Archers

2 x Bolt Throwers

1 x 10 Dragon Princes

1 x 10 Swordmasters

1 x Lion Chariot

That's what, about 2000pts, maybe 2250 with upgrades?

Well for a start, those spearmen blocks are a bit big,
I'd have two units of five dragon princes, and I'd also drop a mage and take a combat character, a lord perhaps, who you can make into a mage with a magic item.
I find Mages are better off on foot, hiding in units. Mages need to go into a unit for their own protection, and mounted units are too combat orientated to risk a mage in.

I usually have one block of spearmen and a couple of units of 10 archers

Nuada
21-01-2010, 14:29
It takes far longer than two games to learn how to use a new army, You need to give it a bit longer to see what works for you.

I understand how to use them, i think it's my list that doesn't suit me. I've gone for min core of x2 archer units, lots of magic, lots of bolt throwers (either 3 or 4), phoenix guard as a place for a mage and banner of sorcery.
None of those units want to be in combat, and are best held back.

The other stuff i'll probably keep in the list is DP, WL & SM units.

I've won twice (both VC) and didn't enjoy either. I do normally have fun with my O&G. I think my solution is drop the PG, change archers to SG or spears, drop the magic, drop some bolt throwers.
It probably won't be as effective, but i'll enjoy it more :)

sorberec
21-01-2010, 16:30
If you just accept charges as HE you're on a hiding to nothing as you still have the same general issues to worry about as other armies, i.e.:

Knights charging you will get their lance bonus / Chariots charging you will get impact hits
If your knights get charged or your chariots get charged they won't get their lance bonus / impact hits

My personal experience is that with HE you can't steam in straight away except against average toughness low armour units as you'll get bogged down or not overcome static res. You need to make use of a couple of turns of magic and shooting to soften up anyone you're going to have to change frontally - which in my experience is everyone as having fewer (often far fewer) units than my opponent means getting a flank charge is practically unheard of.

I have a love/hate relationship with Phoenix Guard. In theory they should just sit there as the perfect bunker for a mage. In practice I find they lose combat when it comes too easily as the 5+ AS isn't worth anything these days and I never seem to get average rolls for the ward save. At the moment I've dropped them from my lists for a unit of White Lions - less survivable but they will kill stuff

enyoss
21-01-2010, 19:03
I understand how to use them, i think it's my list that doesn't suit me. I've gone for min core of x2 archer units, lots of magic, lots of bolt throwers (either 3 or 4), phoenix guard as a place for a mage and banner of sorcery.
None of those units want to be in combat, and are best held back.

The other stuff i'll probably keep in the list is DP, WL & SM units.

I've won twice (both VC) and didn't enjoy either. I do normally have fun with my O&G. I think my solution is drop the PG, change archers to SG or spears, drop the magic, drop some bolt throwers.
It probably won't be as effective, but i'll enjoy it more :)

Wow, I'm not surprised your not enjoying it with that list :D.

I would say that the key to a happy and fulfilled Warhammer HE life is to love your core, not neglect it :D. I think you'll have more fun if you get a biggish (20-25) unit of Spearmen in there, then fill out the other slot with one Archer (around 10) or Seaguard (15) unit.

Also, 3-4 Bolt Throwers and magic heavy is all, well, a bit gunliney, which I find always makes for dull games. You could try and balance it out a bit with some good combat units which, along with the spearmen, will give you something to take to the enemy. My advice to begin with would be to drop the RBTs to two.

One of the things I love about High Elves is that they can do something in every phase of the game, and can usually do it quite well. As you say, If you make the most of this you might enjoy it a bit more (you'll probably lose a bit more too, but oh well :)).

marv335
21-01-2010, 19:59
I like a unit of 20 seaguard with a noble in there. give him a great weapon and the reaver bow.
three ranks of 7 makes a nasty block.
the noble adds punch to the line, and the shooting is useful.

Kloud13
21-01-2010, 20:10
Seaguard are great giant killers, and warmachine killers. why? Well, a large target can be shot at by all the models in the unit, including those in the very back rank. And same goes if your target is up on top of a hill, you know, where people hide warmachines. 20 arrows hitting a warmachine, some are bound to hit some squishy crew.

TheSanityAssassin
22-01-2010, 04:48
My list goes as follows if you're interested:

Lord:
Archmage, Vortex Shard

Heroes:
Caradryan
BSB with Great Weapon, Armour of Caledor, Guardian Phoenix
LV2 Mage w/ Ring of Fury

Core:
20 x Spears, FC, Banner of Ellyrion
10 x Archers

Special:
20 x Phoenix Guard, War Banner (Caradryan and BSB go here)
14 x Swordsmasters, FC, Champ has Talisman of Loec, Lion Standard
1 x Lion Chariot

Rare:
2 x RBT
Great Eagle

Comes in around 2250...I might be missing an upgrade as I keep getting 2239.


The Archmage goes in with the Spears and get into the woods as shooting protection, the LV2's main job is to put Shield of Saphery on the Swordsmasters. The big Phoenix Guard block suddenly becomes FAR more scary with 6 character attacks and MORE combat rez bonuses from Warbanner and the BSB (I find giving the BSB huge survivability is great...Elf BSB's are SO easy to kill if they fluff, and at 2+/5+ he can survive most things). With all the ward saves that unit is SO hard to shift. If Special Characters aren't allowed then I replace Caradryan with another Great Weapon noble, sometimes with White Sword or somesuch.

I will also often switch around the Lion Chariot to either a unit of Dragon Princes or a unit of White Lions, or drop the bolt throwers and an item or two for another Lion Chariot and a Tiranoc Chariot (tri-chariot charges are the must BRUTAL thing if you can pull it off).

ChaosVC
22-01-2010, 07:40
Yeah! Show and Tell! I want to play too!

My list consist of

Prince
mounted barded pointy ear steed.
Gem of hoeth, +1 lvl magic
Staff of saphery, chose your own adventures...I mean spells.
5+ ward save thingy.
Dragon armour
shield
lance

Noble BSB
Reaver Bow
Mask of 10 points that makes you aquatic and gives you 1+ amour save
dragon amour
shield
Great weapon

Foot wizard lvl2
Ring of fury

Mounted wizard lvl2
2 x dispell scroll

Core

10 x lorther seaguard with shield (because i have no xtra archers)

10 x archers

Special

15 white lions full command with lion standard (pride and joy)

11 swordsmasters with full command and banner of saphery (reserves)

5 dragon princes full command with Ellyrion banner (they hate scouts and loves trees)

White lion chariot (canon ball magnet)

Rare

2 x bolt thrower (aka heavy bolter)

2 x Great Eagles code name KFC (Kentacky fried chickens)

Edit (2250pts exactly baby!)

Well this list is generally fun but relies heavily on terrian. So whoopi do, if I fight in open plains or desert terrian, they will probably die faster than a unit of fleeing skaven slaves.

GenerationTerrorist
22-01-2010, 23:41
At 1500pts I run:

- Mounted Noble with Star Lance and Enchanted Shield and Dragon Armour
- Lvl2 Dragon Mage with Guardian Phoenix and Silver Wand

- 10 Archers

- 2 units of 5 Dragon Princes with Standard
- 1 unit of 6 Dragon Princes with Standard (WarBanner) and Champion (Dragon Horn), Noble goes here

- 2 Repeater Bolt Throwers

When I play 2000pts games:

- Prince with Great Weapon, Armour of Caledor, Vambraces of Defence and Star Dragon
- Mounted Noble (BSB) with Star Lance, Enchanted Shield and Dragon Armour
- Lvl2 Mounted Mage with 2 Scrolls and Silver Wand

- 10 Archers
- 10 Archers

- 2 units of 5 Dragon Princes with Standard
- 1 unit of 6 Dragon Princes with Standard (WarBanner) and Champion (Dragon Horn), Noble goes here

- 2 Repeater Bolt Throwers

I like the fast, hard hitting (if somewhat fragile) attitude of the Caledorian Knights :-)

Seville
22-01-2010, 23:42
Awesome! Thanks, guys. These lists give me a lot to work with.