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View Full Version : A crazy idea: The Tau ask for advice.



Memnos
20-01-2010, 12:39
The Ethereal, Aun'el D'yanoi Tien Ho, stood gravely before the assembled throngs. His hands were clasped behind him, a sense of nobility in his bearing.

"My friends, we are at a crossroads. We, the Tau, have had our collective Cadres defeated on numerous occasions. Unless we show up to battle, drop out of numerous Devilfishes with overwhelming firepower and then pile back in before we can be effectively shot, we have begun losing far more than we win. The Tyranids have adapted. The Imperium. Changes in warfare are constant and we have been left behind. I just wish I knew what we could do. I wish I knew what I could -"

A lone voice raised a hand, waving it around. "Excuse me. Sir? Sir? Uh... I have some advice. Y'know. About not sucking."

Silence fell on the assembled crowd. El'Tien peered at the Earth Caste member. "Go on...."



"Well, the first change that I would do is to:"

Ethereals

"You guys lead everything, right? You command the earth caste, the air caste? Everyone is willing to die for you or do anything, right?"

El'Tien nodded.

"Then why don't you command people to do things? Why don't you have the earth caste rapid deploy to a place before a major fight and fortify something so the troops don't get shot? Why don't you have the Air Caste drop orbital bombardments or have the Water Caste enter in to protracted negotiations with units and armies before the battle to keep them from showing in a timely manner?"

El'Tien paused, "Well... Err... It's because... Uh.... No. No, just no. The Fire caste fights. The other castes don't. Besides," he said, "I'm too busy training with my honour blade before battle to do this."

"By all that is holy, DON'T! Don't we hate hand to hand? Isn't it barbaric? Why are you spending time learning to fight as well as an average Ork when the Warboss is going to just snip you in two when he gets close? Just get the Castes to do SOMETHING."

"And last about the Ethereals. Why is it that only people who can directly see you become braver?" He asked, throwing up his arms in disgust.

The ethereal shook his head, standing his ground. "Because we don't tell them we're there."

The earth caste gritted his teeth. "Then... Tell. Them." He said.

There was a general outcry, "But the Firewarriors would want autographs and pictures!" "How come the Firewarriors get to know when Ethereals are there? It isn't fair!" "Loud noises! I don't know why we are yelling!!"

"The next thing I want to talk about is the..."

Shas'vre and Shas'ui

"Yeah. About them." The Fio caste pointed out two of them. "You. Shas'ui. Why do you lead troops?"

The Shas'ui glared, "Well... Because I stay calmer in a fight. And -" he said proudly, "Not to brag, but I'm better in hand to hand than anyone else."

The fio caste shook his head in disbelief, "And you - Shas'vre? Are you even more courageous than the Shas'ui?"

The Shas'vre puffed himself up proudly, "No. But I'm about as good in hand to hand combat as your average Imperial Guard Sergeant. That's why I earn the big bucks!"

The Earth Caste member smacked his face with the palm of his hand. "You're retarded. Why do we spend time training people to be better in hand to hand? It doesn't help. We don't like it. Doesn't anyone remember? Hand to hand barbaric? I think the Shas'ui and Shas'vre should learn a better skill, like...


Gunfighting

A Shas'vre and Shas'ui have learned to keep their cool even when the opponent is in their face. Because of this, they get to fire whatever weapon they have in to the melee, using their base attack and weapon skill since the opponent can parry guns as they're being brought to bare, but using the weapons S and AP. Note that things like missiles and template weapons do not have time to arm, nozzles get shoved in to mouths or other orifices and triggers are pulled. Because of that, weapons with templates and/or blast markers do not get said blast markers.


"Yes. And while we 're on the subject of hand to hand, I want to talk about the -"

Kroot

"Kroot are great. They can run, jump and squeeze through the tiniest gaps in even the thickest jungle brush. Right? And they're so good at hiding behind "

The Ethereal nodded.

"Then why, by all that is holy, do they stumble around like drunken children the moment they have to walk on asphalt instead of a root system?"

There was an eruption of angry shouts, "The stones hurt their feet!" some cried, or "Their green scales clash with urban decor!"

The Earth caste member threw up his hands, "Buy them boots and send in Kroot that have evolved urban colors to urban areas and jungle colors to jungle areas? Am I taking crazy pills? This doesn't seem so hard. That way, they could gain full use of their skills in:

stealth and the ability to move through cover in addition to their ability to infiltrate. Wouldn't it make sense? Then, they might be better at holding firepoints with their Krootox and someone might actually bring them instead of leaving them at home."

The throng shifted uncomfortably. Finally, the ethereal spoke, "Well... The real reason is that Krootox stink." He said with a sad finality. "We kind of deliberately make them as unattractive as possible."

"Ah... Err... Okay. Then maybe I should talk about

Fire Warriors

As soon as their name was said, all the firewarriors in the crowd began fingering their rifles, peering at the Earth Caste member.

"Well... Err... You guys are great! I do have some suggestions, though:"

"1: I'm pretty sure we can streamline the Devilfish assembly process. That should make it more easily mass-produced and require less effort."

"2: Why not just assign a Shas'ui? Do we not have enough veterans to go around? The humans do."

"3: Look... I know we don't do a combined arms approach. That specialization is the key to victory. I also know that we used to send drones with almost every Firewarrrior unit. Why not let the Shas'ui requisition Sniper Drones? It wouldn't slow them down, it would give them better anti-light vehicle capabilities, we have the technology to create them right now and our troops are trained to fight next to Drones, so it wouldn't require radical re-training."

"The next thing I want to talk about are the

Vespids

And how they fit in. They can move through cover and... I'm reading how the honoured Ethereals described them. They are masters of flanking. So... Err... How come they can't outflank?"

Again, the crowd erupted in to jeers and anger. "It says flank, not OUT-flank!" said some. "Going the long way is tiring. Their poor little wings!" said others.

The Earth Caste member sighed, "Okay. Fine. They get tired. We'll let them sleep AFTER the battle. But what's the difference between a flanking force and an outflanking force?"

There was silence, until one Fire caste member rose up. "Well one is flanking and the other is flanking with a more out-y way to it." He said triumphantly. The other firecaste members high-fived him.

**************

Well, that's the beginning of 'How I would change the Tau.' I have some ideas on the rest, but those were some of the most important ones that need changing.

What do you think?

The Marshel
20-01-2010, 12:50
...wow

you raise a few very good points. I wouldn't have any issues with stealth kroot, suits who sacrifice combat ability for shooting ability or outflanking vespid.

the stuff you said about Ethereals, are you sayn you think Ethereals should have an order system similar to the imperial guard? i think this would be a great idea, really make them worth taking.

Memnos
20-01-2010, 12:52
Maybe like orders. More like the Guard Support crew - Call down orbital strikes, fortify ruins like the Techmarine. Since he commands ALL the Tau, why not use the other Tau to help for the Greater Good?

Eldoriath
20-01-2010, 13:17
Good reading, but you should edit that the firewarriors make a high-four in the end ;)

Also, some good points there and the devilfish should become much cheaper comparing to how cheap transports in general are now.

azimaith
20-01-2010, 13:19
This is great.

tu33y
20-01-2010, 13:44
if every wish list posted on here was this clever, this thoughtful and this funny the admins might have a few less ants in the pants.

my only and (i do mean ONLY criticism) would be Tau would become a IG-EQ with orders and whatnot but with some decent develoment that might not be a problem.

excellent... i salute you sir. best thread in ages.


also, ultimo lol at "No. But I'm about as good in hand to hand combat as your average Imperial Guard Sergeant. That's why I earn the big bucks!"

Cerraand
20-01-2010, 14:00
well said, good narrative too

these are much better than the non-sense suggestions I've seen in the other threads (such as increasing hand-to-hand capabilities with power weapons and such)

boreas
20-01-2010, 14:19
Best interpretation of those points... EVER!!! :-)

Phil

Hypaspist
20-01-2010, 14:30
wow a 40k gen post that was a pleasure to read!

well done Memnos, a good start to promoting *reasoned and reasonable discussion* :)

(also happen to agree with many of your points)

more please ;)

Thud
20-01-2010, 16:03
Good show.

I really like the "shooting in cc" idea.

Reddog
20-01-2010, 17:02
Very good points.

This reminds me of a narrative pointing out all the Eldar flaws. It was a few years ago on either Warseer or the old Portent website. Anyone have a copy of that?

Gen.Steiner
20-01-2010, 17:13
Excellent and funny post, well done.

I have no problems with any of those ideas.

Personally I'd also add in way more alien units - Demiurg Warbots, Nicassar Assault Packs, that sort of thing. I've started doing it (see sig) but I wish GW would save me the bother, frankly.

Chaplain Ark
20-01-2010, 17:59
the entire time i read that i was smiling. touche good sir. ive never heard a request thread quite like this. very good.

and yes, this post has absolutly no useful input in it. im bored and my teacher is going monotone like in Ferris Buelers Day Off.

RED9335
20-01-2010, 19:02
Memnos for president! The best thing I have ever read since joining. Excellent points.

spriten
20-01-2010, 20:25
Kudos sir, finest post Ive read here. Including both humour AND logic in one post, I'm awestruck!

Nakor
20-01-2010, 20:43
excellent op

agree with pretty much everything

Wurrzog da Orcy Tomb King
20-01-2010, 21:17
.

Personally I'd also add in way more alien units - Demiurg Warbots, Nicassar Assault Packs, that sort of thing. I've started doing it (see sig) but I wish GW would save me the bother, frankly.

I've heard that GW add an aux race per codex update. Like a patch but with Codex release time instead of load times.

By the way OP, awsome work! Ithe next segment(if there is one) can a kroot hound have a poo on the ethereal to point out his lack of armour for a ViP who we don't like dieing (the etheral dieing, not the hound :D.

starlight
20-01-2010, 21:34
More...like this...

Firaxin
20-01-2010, 21:43
Uh, I lolled too, but did anyone actually read what he suggested? :eyebrows:

Shooting in melee? Using the model's WS and A but the guns' S and AP? You realize that for +32pts a Shas'O will get eight Strength 6+ power weapon attacks (4 from a plasma rifle, 4 from a fusion blaster), and still have a slot left over to give it a 4+ invul save for combating enemy characters?

That's even more stupid than the 'shoot once as a charge response' rule people like to come up with. It makes the Crisis suits more powerful in close combat than they are at range. :wtf:

starlight
20-01-2010, 21:57
The style and execution, not the specifics... :p



...I'd go for shooting a single weapon as a charge reaction...

Jorgandr
20-01-2010, 22:10
All the things you suggests are well thought out, except the gunfighting thingie. I don't like the Tau to be better in close combat. If anything, they shoul be worse, and let the Kroot handle the dirty fighting.

Perhaps some sort of run away from combat rule, a bit like Hit and Run, but not based on Initiative (to let them actually get a chance of breaking out of the combats)?

Lyinar
20-01-2010, 22:14
Or, they could change the Crisis suits to not be almost-kinda-close-combat-monsters like they are now, in which case, it wouldn't be a huge deal.

The OP puts me in mind of the post written from the POV of someone's Emperor's Children army as they reacted to the changes in the new codex... Like getting stuck with generic daemons because the other legions were complaining how the ECs got hot six-plus-breasted women while they were stuck with, respectively, "flaming mushrooms and walking bags of poo".

Triple Threat
20-01-2010, 22:22
I love it! I think most of the suggestions are good and I have always thought that Tau should have more drones and turrets in the codex like forgeworld:
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/acatalog/TAU_BATTLESUITS.html
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/acatalog/TAU_TURRETS.html

Memnos
20-01-2010, 22:56
Uh, I lolled too, but did anyone actually read what he suggested? :eyebrows:

Shooting in melee? Using the model's WS and A but the guns' S and AP? You realize that for +32pts a Shas'O will get eight Strength 6+ power weapon attacks (4 from a plasma rifle, 4 from a fusion blaster), and still have a slot left over to give it a 4+ invul save for combating enemy characters?

That's even more stupid than the 'shoot once as a charge response' rule people like to come up with. It makes the Crisis suits more powerful in close combat than they are at range. :wtf:

That's untrue. A Shas'o would get 4 S 6-8 power weapon shots for their most powerful character, as their attacks characteristic is 4.

I'm looking for where my post said that 2 weapons would double their attacks...Ah! I see where I posted that they can fire 'Whatever weapon they have in to the melee using their base attacks characteristic.'

Let me FAQ that, then: They may choose one weapon and attack, using the aforementioned rules.

That would mean their most powerful character could get up to 4 S 6 or 8 attacks if kitted out specifically to do that as the Shas'el gets in to point blank range and unloads his gun. It sounds like you're saying that isn't appropriate. Would you say that characters that can get 4 S 6 or 8 power weapon equivalent attacks are too powerful? I would direct you to actual close combat armies and see if their most powerful character can do better than that. I will hazard a guess to say they could.

I apologize for the confusion. Thanks for pointing out the poor word choice.

Hmm - And actually, now that you mention it, you could throw 2 Shas'vre in and get potentially 8 S8 total power weapon attacks with that unit. The downside is that you'd have to be going forward to engage in hand to hand with Tau and only 3 models, which means you might quickly be overrun.

Mudkip
20-01-2010, 23:22
Hmm - And actually, now that you mention it, you could throw 2 Shas'vre in and get potentially 8 S8 total power weapon attacks with that unit. The downside is that you'd have to be going forward to engage in hand to hand with Tau and only 3 models, which means you might quickly be overrun.

Yeaaaaaah, no.

Some of your other suggestion are much more sensible and realistic. Scouting Vespid would be fluffy and useful since it would have synergy with their wings and guns. They could outflank but also they would be in range of most targets on the first turn if they used a scout move (12" deployment, 12" scout, 12" move, 12" range gun = 48" range).

Kroot do need their Fieldcraft rules replaced by generic USRs to make them better at being a cover-hugging skirmisher screen regardless of terrain.

Grinder
20-01-2010, 23:40
What if the Tau added a new 'cadre' such as a dogs of war, perhaps an aircaste, maybe earthcaste who has a large baggage train greater knarloc loaded with the goods.

I would jump for joy if Kroot could call out for a unit Hounds to join them 'on the fly' like a DSing demon unit on an icon.

What if the Sky Ray could mount up passengers?

no narrative, sorry

jason_sation
21-01-2010, 00:00
Great post!!!

To be honest, I think rules that depend on specific TYPES of terrain should go the way of the dodo. I mean Catachan are no longer around as masters of the jungle. The reason I say this is because you are left with one of two types of games.

Either:

1. You have a board that favors one of the armies due to the specific terrain type.

-OR-

2. You have a board that one of the armies is underpowered in because they paid for special rules that don't apply to that terrain.

Of course there are always exceptions. We all know how overpowered Chimeras are because of their Amphibious rule. :D

I like the stealth idea for any unit that is good at hiding out in terrain. I guess you could make the arguement that some armies might lose out on fluff, but I think that rules that might not even apply to your game (Maybe you don't even have forests to use as terrain, maybe you use books and cottonballs) should be more of a house rule.

fwacho
21-01-2010, 04:47
This was one of the best posts I have read in ages. add in his FAQ and their are some very valid ideas. honestly if you could just use your guns in CC using WS comparison to hit it would be an improvemnt. (and keep my suits from getting tied up with dreads.)

Balragore
21-01-2010, 04:58
Good points and +1 cookie for an extremely humorous approach! :)

Xyrex
21-01-2010, 05:05
Very nice post, DO MORE, DO MORE!!!

I happen to agree with the shooting in close combat thing... At least a single shot, I mean if you were a guardsman with a plasma rifle facing a marine, would you rather use your shiny new and hella deadly plasma pistol... or your gun but?

Though they should only ave 1 shot...