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View Full Version : Am I missing something? Venomthrope, Trygon, and reserves.



Damore
20-01-2010, 17:49
First the Venomthrope: Can anyone tell my why it has BS 4? As far as I can tell it can't shoot. Am I overlooking something?

Next the Trygon: This is a great unit, but what I'm having issues with is the hole it makes when it deepstrikes. Everytime I have used the Trygon the hole is useless because ether the other unit(s) in reserve arrive before or at the same time as the Trygon.

Finally the reserves: Tyranids have the bonus for Hive Tyrant(if bought), the bonus from Lictors, and the bonus from the Death Leaper. But the Lictors and Death Leaper have to be on the table to for a turn to use it. It is a nice to have, but it has the same problem as the Trygon hole.

Is there something that I'm not seeing about Tyranid reserves that makes them not have to role reserves for every unit that is in reserve. Because these powers look great until you remember that you MUST roll for reserves. Was this overlooked or bad design?

Zanzibarthefirst
20-01-2010, 17:52
these are only a few of the :wtf: moments that the tyrnaid codex is plagued with. if you look in a few other threads you'll see many more

Chaplain Ark
20-01-2010, 17:54
thats actually a good point.

GW probably figured a way for this to work. otherwise it wouldnt be in the codex. can the Trygon DS in, then the other models come through the hole right after him, cause that makes sense.

madival
20-01-2010, 17:56
The later two problems are simply solved by placing them first. It is all in the way you get them in. I have always done DS one unit at a time. so if my lictor would come in, I would roll for him first, then the next and so forth.

Damore
20-01-2010, 17:59
thats actually a good point.

GW probably figured a way for this to work. otherwise it wouldnt be in the codex. can the Trygon DS in, then the other models come through the hole right after him, cause that makes sense.

That is what I thought at first, but other models can only use it on subsequent turns.


The later two problems are simply solved by placing them first. It is all in the way you get them in. I have always done DS one unit at a time. so if my lictor would come in, I would roll for him first, then the next and so forth.

The problem is their powers can't be used the turn they come in.

Chaplain Ark
20-01-2010, 18:00
That is what I thought at first, but other models can only use it on subsequent turns.

really? now that dont make no sense at all.

hmm... let me ponder this for a while.

RampagingRavener
20-01-2010, 18:05
No, there's nothing to ponder. Units can only emerge from the Tunnel on subsequent turns, and there's nothing which allows you to specify they're arriving that way like you can declare a unit is arriving via Outflank or Deep Strike. As a result it's not a particularly useful ability. Potentially good if your entire army starts in reserves, as any straggling units which fail their reserve rolls in the early turns can appear from a Tunnel without having to slog across the entire board, but it's not something to try and base a strategy around.

azimaith
20-01-2010, 18:07
Theres not much to ponder, another retarded ability in a codex full of them. It ranks right up there with lictor pheremone trail and reserves buffs. You could use it max turn three by which point you could have already reached that point long ago or dropped a spore pod.

madival
20-01-2010, 18:08
Well this just makes me want to play strictly warrior wing even more. I didnt know that the awesome abilities of some of these guys were so stingy

azimaith
20-01-2010, 18:10
Hive commander has no effect on a trygon. The only thing the tunnel is useful for is dawn of war deployments where you get royally screwed out of a unit for three turns and that unit isn't the trygon and that trygon came in on turn two and not turn three.

That's a lot of If's.

Wurrzog da Orcy Tomb King
20-01-2010, 21:05
@OP: Venomthropes have BS4 as they are apart of the thrope Genus.

As in apart from Attacks and Ld Zoan and Venom's stats are the same. The diff being their abilities.

On that point I'm a bit miffed that the the venomthrope isn't a psyker as we were meant to get A uber psyker but they spread the abilities around making them more awsome. Alas this makes the Venom a lackluster KFF.

@azimaith: why doesn't hive commander affect Trygons?

SPYDER68
20-01-2010, 21:13
Who knows, maybe the faq will end up being crazy and let lictors still give their +1.

Doubt it though..

And yea, Hive commander still gives Trygon +1 to their roll on reserves like everything else.

Latro_
20-01-2010, 23:21
I think the trygon's tunnel is supposed to be a minor buff that will come in handy from time to time not the nid version of a webway portal! he's already 200+ pts if he was any more you'd all moan like bŁ$%chs.

Its a cheeky fluffy sometimes useful thing that does not detract away from the actual trygon and its abilities to crunch stuff. e.g. people are gonna take em because they preform their own role and not just so 150 gaunts can appear from thin air and swarm into the enemy's deployment zone on turn 2.

Having a choppy army my self in the form of orks its almost mandatory to keep at least one unit of troops in reserve if you have big units of troops, if I had the option to drop 20 boyz across the table now and again i'd be like wooo! If not, use the brain cells to form that lovely art of tactics and plan around it. Too many people in 40k have one plan or pine after the most reliable units possible, ye should have several plans going on at once and most of them should be negative 'what ifs'

ehlijen
21-01-2010, 00:10
What if those abilities are not meant to be the primary abilities, ie they are not meant to increase the lethality of tyranid reserves. Rather, they could be emergency use abilties to make sure that if the reserve rolls go bad, they'll still be there a turn earlier.

Lictors, should they arrive before turn 4, will move automatic arrival from turn 5 (the possibly last turn) to turn 4, giving the unit at least one more turn to assault in.
The tunnel is a safe option if, on the turn another unit arrives, there's nowhere else that's worth the risk of trying to use normal deepstriking rules (this can happen when facing other horde armies).

Geep
21-01-2010, 01:48
Normally, with the Hive Commander ability, reserves only arrive turn 3 on a 2+. Sure it's good odds, but I've failed that roll countless times. With a lictor on the table it becomes automatic- you WILL have all reserves in by turn 3.

Maybe not game breaking, but still useful.

azimaith
21-01-2010, 03:29
Normally, with the Hive Commander ability, reserves only arrive turn 3 on a 2+. Sure it's good odds, but I've failed that roll countless times. With a lictor on the table it becomes automatic- you WILL have all reserves in by turn 3.

Maybe not game breaking, but still useful.

If he comes in on turn 2. Big if.


Sorry, hive commanders+1 does work, I was under the impression you wanted to outflank him.

LKHERO
21-01-2010, 03:52
Well.. I can only figure its probably a way to reduce FAQ's in the future. For example: What if a HT casts Parasoysm on a unit without a ballistic skill?.. or maybe even a another ability in the future such as...

(I'm making this up)

24" psychic shooting. The unit must make a ballistic skill test or are unable to move in their movement phase as they're blinded by holy light. ??? :wtf: you get the idea.

Znail
21-01-2010, 03:53
First the Venomthrope: Can anyone tell my why it has BS 4? As far as I can tell it can't shoot. Am I overlooking something?

Can you point me towards a codex that does NOT have any units with BS and no ranged weapons?

ehlijen
21-01-2010, 04:17
I believe the complaint isn't really 'Why does the venomthrope have a ballistic skill?' but rather 'Why is one of the few instances of BS4 in the nid codex wasted on the venomthrope when unit X could have benefied so much more from it?'.

I honestly think that if they'd given it BS3 but no shooting attack, there'd be no complaints.

Vepr
21-01-2010, 04:23
I believe the complaint isn't really 'Why does the venomthrope have a ballistic skill?' but rather 'Why is one of the few instances of BS4 in the nid codex wasted on the venomthrope when unit X could have benefied so much more from it?'.

I honestly think that if they'd given it BS3 but no shooting attack, there'd be no complaints.

As long as it did not go into the end points cost of the venomthrope then I do not care. If BS4 is actually figured into it then :eyebrows:

ehlijen
21-01-2010, 08:44
As long as it did not go into the end points cost of the venomthrope then I do not care. If BS4 is actually figured into it then :eyebrows:

Given that stats are apparently not factored into cost at all, that in fact, there is not cost calculation system at all (or so I'm told), I think we can safely say that no, the BS of a gunless unit probably makes no impact on its cost.

TheShadowCow
21-01-2010, 11:11
Perhaps they intended it to be an interesting option for some of your Reserves in the late game (getting right up to the opponent), but not reliable enough for you to build an army around it and expect it to work every time depositing an army on Turn 2?

the_picto
21-01-2010, 11:28
Planet strike. The trygon comes in on turn 1 and then stuff can come through the hole later on. Perhaps the new mission book will have alternate deployment senarios that will make subterrainean assault more useful. Overall it's an amusing ability that won't get used very often, but you don't actually pay much for it.

Why can't lictors have the choice of just infiltrating? It'd be appropriate and let them be on the board at the begining of turn two.

Why are the reserve bonuses compulsory anyway? If the tyrant is such a tactical genius he should have more control and not just make things turn up faster. For example, if you could choose to add 1 to the trygons roll, then choose to subtract 1 from the 30 strong hormagaunt unit so the can use the hole next turn.

ehlijen
21-01-2010, 12:01
Why are the reserve bonuses compulsory anyway? If the tyrant is such a tactical genius he should have more control and not just make things turn up faster. For example, if you could choose to add 1 to the trygons roll, then choose to subtract 1 from the 30 strong hormagaunt unit so the can use the hole next turn.


The reason reserve roll boni tend to be compulsory is because the game is meant to be about players trying to use their models to overcome the enemy in a fair fight, not about who can hide his the longest and thus gets to suckerpunch the enemy without serious fear of retaliation.

Reservehammer can already be made dangerously close to that and we're better of if it doesn't go there all the way.

LonelyPath
21-01-2010, 12:23
The Venomthropes BS4 is something that bugs me as well, I would much rather have had a BS4 Tyrant.

IJW
21-01-2010, 12:29
Why are people assuming that the Venomthrope's BS4 is an either/or situation with another unit in the codex getting BS4?

As Wurzog pointed out, it's a 'relative' of the Zoanthrope and just got given the same BS stat, in the same way that Old One Eye got Living Battering Ram because he's a Carnifex.

Souleater
21-01-2010, 12:42
Yeah, but OOE would still be charging into the thick of the enemy. He might not get much use out of the rule but it fits his background to still have it.

The venomthrope I don't really care about his BS. What puzzles me is why the Biovore (a lurk and shoot from long range unit) keeps the exact same profile as the Pyrovore (close range frontliner).

Didn't the Hivemind think that slightly altering their makeup might be a good idea? I.e. GW giving the Pyrovore a bit more survivability or an extra attack to show off the difference in the models?

Not everything built off a Rhino hull is 11/11/10 after all.

Damore
21-01-2010, 17:37
Why are people assuming that the Venomthrope's BS4 is an either/or situation with another unit in the codex getting BS4?

I don't think it is a either/or situation. I think the way it is looked at is that is Venomthrope got BS4 and can't use it, and the Hive Tyrant needs BS 4 base because of its cost. It makes the other mistakes in the codex look even worse.(This thread is not about how bad/overcosted the Tyrant is.)


As Wurzog pointed out, it's a 'relative' of the Zoanthrope and just got given the same BS stat, in the same way that Old One Eye got Living Battering Ram because he's a Carnifex.

I would say the Venomthrope is not a 'relative' of the Zoanthrope, other than it is a Tyranid. They are 2 very different creatures in game and background. Just because they have 'thrope' does not make them 'relatives'.

IJW
21-01-2010, 17:41
My mistake, I was thinking of the Parasite being a variation on the Zoanthrope.

de Selby
21-01-2010, 21:22
Its a cheeky fluffy sometimes useful thing that does not detract away from the actual trygon and its abilities to crunch stuff. e.g. people are gonna take em because they preform their own role and not just so 150 gaunts can appear from thin air and swarm into the enemy's deployment zone on turn 2.


I'd agree with this. I plan on having a trygon in my army and I expect to occasionally put things in reserves. So sometimes I will get a nice bonus from this cool ability. The trygon is not one of the things that's over-costed for its abilities.

Vepr
21-01-2010, 21:35
Given that stats are apparently not factored into cost at all, that in fact, there is not cost calculation system at all (or so I'm told), I think we can safely say that no, the BS of a gunless unit probably makes no impact on its cost.

I have heard people say this before. Do we know this for sure? If stats and abilities are not factored into the equation how do they arrive at point costs?

IJW
21-01-2010, 22:15
Intuition and guesstimates. Seriously.