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View Full Version : WoC Giant...is it even worth it any more?



Daedalus81
21-01-2010, 18:58
Maybe i'm just suffering from hell pit abomination envy, but my giant seems to wind up as free points about half the time. I need an all-comers list for tournies and he just doesn't seem up to the task. Please bear in mind i'm aware on the counters to the HPA and other options that I have -- I just want to discuss the viability of the giant, with some comparable equivalents.

When comparing to HPA the giant just seems a waste. At only 10 points extra it has regen, impact hits, +1I, 17% to come back from the dead, but -2L. There is a 3% chance the HPA can go berserk, but it can charge any direction at least until a FAQ states otherwise. For a handful more points you get MR1 and magical attacks...

In combat it has :
33% to do d3 wounds, 1.5 wounds on average
33% for 10.5 S6 attacks, 5 hit, 2.5 wounds on average
33% for 7.5 hits S6 (includes intiative attack), 3.25 wounds on average
--2.4 total wounds on average (not including impact hits)

The giant on the other hand will have :
17% to win by 2 (HPA is stubborn anyway)
50% to cause 7 wounds, 3.5 on average after regen
33% to cause 1.5 wounds, .75 on average
--2.3375 total wounds on average

Against ranked units I would say the abomination wins hands down. The giant has some characterful attacks, but too many chances to wind up doing nothing in combat the next turn. And the only way to get him there is to go balls to the wall movement, but all too often it seems i'm hampered by poisoned attacks from the woods at my flank or by cannon balls slapping my face.

Thoughts?

Witchblade
21-01-2010, 19:14
The giant is somewhat overcosted. MoS compensates a little, but not enough.

The HPA is grossly overpowered and broken.

Lord Malorne
21-01-2010, 19:17
I really do wonder what they are going to do with giants, they have been overcosted for years now in all the books they have been in, just not surviveable enough.

Daedalus81
21-01-2010, 19:33
The giant is somewhat overcosted. MoS compensates a little, but not enough.

The HPA is grossly overpowered and broken.

At a tournament this past weekend the winner ran 2 HPAs and a furnance. If I recall he want by an unheard of margin. (Sorry got myself off-topic :P)

Valaraukar
21-01-2010, 20:59
I really do wonder what they are going to do with giants, they have been overcosted for years now in all the books they have been in, just not surviveable enough.

Well the BoC one now has a chomp attack causing D3 wounds which he can regain if he has lost some which makes him somewhat more survivable but still pretty random.

Lord Malorne
21-01-2010, 21:02
That is the bigger one though? the one that (rightly) has T6?

Valaraukar
21-01-2010, 21:04
No the actual giant I think it may be instead of head but, they also have the gorgon which has a similar single attack which killing blows on a 4+ and regains it D3 wounds.

snottlebocket
21-01-2010, 22:05
I really do wonder what they are going to do with giants, they have been overcosted for years now in all the books they have been in, just not surviveable enough.

They're not that bad really. Giants take considerable effort to deal with and are cheaper than most combat units in the chaos army. It's not hard to kill a giant, but it takes dedication.

If someone takes down my giant it probably means they failed to take down my knights and other mean, nasty combat units. If someone failed to take down my giant it means I got a ld10 stubborn model into combat where it can potentially do serious damage for a mere 225 points.

Giants tend to do more damage than other monsters in their price range (barring some exceptions with ridiculous rules like the abomination) in addition they are stubborn on ld10. It's no wonder they die more, they attract a lot of attention. I don't think they're overcosted, there's just a few undercosted buggers out there as well.

Daedalus81
22-01-2010, 00:47
They're not that bad really. Giants take considerable effort to deal with and are cheaper than most combat units in the chaos army. It's not hard to kill a giant, but it takes dedication.

If someone takes down my giant it probably means they failed to take down my knights and other mean, nasty combat units. If someone failed to take down my giant it means I got a ld10 stubborn model into combat where it can potentially do serious damage for a mere 225 points.

Giants tend to do more damage than other monsters in their price range (barring some exceptions with ridiculous rules like the abomination) in addition they are stubborn on ld10. It's no wonder they die more, they attract a lot of attention. I don't think they're overcosted, there's just a few undercosted buggers out there as well.

I would probably rather absorb fire with a tzeentch warshrine (I already have a hellcannon kicking around). Sometimes it is great when the giants takes up so much fire, but at times I really wish they'd shoot my warriors since they can take those poison shots with an armor save instead.

Storak
22-01-2010, 07:16
the giant is weak. my O&G army uses it occasionally, because he can operate outside 12 inch of the general. but it is really a weak monster these days.

snottlebocket
22-01-2010, 07:56
I would probably rather absorb fire with a tzeentch warshrine (I already have a hellcannon kicking around). Sometimes it is great when the giants takes up so much fire, but at times I really wish they'd shoot my warriors since they can take those poison shots with an armor save instead.

Yeah I'd like that to, but who in their right mind actually shoots at warshrines. Those things are pretty damn tough, slow as heck and if they already got a good roll on the eye of the gods table the damage is done already.

xxRavenxx
22-01-2010, 10:37
I think the giant is usable and *fun*

I own one, and may buy another sometime soon.

As for good? I think every other "Big singular thing" pretty much has it beaten in competitive terms, but... it may still be the best way for some armies to deal with tough targets.

Launching into a steam tank, getting a smash with club, and inflicting a dozen automatic wounds is probably the most fun I've had with a giant... on the other hand, if the person I played in that game had been a little luckyer with his cannon, I imagine I'd never have had the chance.

Daedalus81
22-01-2010, 15:29
I think the giant is usable and *fun*

I own one, and may buy another sometime soon.

As for good? I think every other "Big singular thing" pretty much has it beaten in competitive terms, but... it may still be the best way for some armies to deal with tough targets.

Launching into a steam tank, getting a smash with club, and inflicting a dozen automatic wounds is probably the most fun I've had with a giant... on the other hand, if the person I played in that game had been a little luckyer with his cannon, I imagine I'd never have had the chance.

I can't deny how fun and characterful the giant is -- he really is my favorite unit to run. I struggle with the great situational uses he can have against the mathhammer and general experiences. Maybe target overload would keep him around longer.

Artinam
22-01-2010, 15:33
A few gaming mates use two in their 2000 p lists. They are still a considerable threat that can't be really ignored.

An ASF version would be a nightmare for my Brets.

Granted that there bigger badder things, bit I wouldn't discount them.

Lord Khabal
22-01-2010, 15:35
HPA is not broken!!! stubborn with ld 8 has 17% chance of fleeing from combat (if it loses)! besides if you roll feed, it will do almost no damage!
Its good and a bit undercosted but definitly not broken. the doomwheel is a lot more "broken" then the HPA

JonnyTHM
22-01-2010, 16:19
The value of taking a giant really shouldn't change from the HPA coming onto the scene. It's in your army list to fulfill a role. It stops having value if that role ceases to exist, or if there's something else in your army list that does it better (or in a more cost effective manner).

So, the only way that the HPA changes the value of the giant is if your primary purpose for it was going toe to toe with big bad monsters, and now the HPA mucks that up.

The reality of the situation in my mind is that the giant still presents itself as a viable option for a particular role in WoC. It's a rare choice that causes terror that's mobile.

If all you're going to do is crunch numbers on combat, the Giant isn't going to come out on top (especially if you only look at yelling as compared to stubborn enemies... it's wonderful against many many things - in fact I'd say it's one of the best things you could ask for, just not against stubborn opponents). However, if you actually look at its tactical use, I think you'll find that the Giant has a role to fill in a WoC army and does so in a cost effective manner.

Valaraukar
22-01-2010, 17:43
The problem is it's survivability as even with T6 with no save of any kind it tends never to cross the board or roll badly in it's first combat and get chopped up in response. Poison against it is horrible and most things that do multiple wounds are also high strength. To me a giant should be a bit harder to kill than he is as represented in the rules.

Skyth
22-01-2010, 18:31
I take my giant when I want a fun list. I take another unit of knights when I'm looking for a more powerful list.

Seville
22-01-2010, 18:43
Valaraukar - the Giant is only T5, which is part of the problem!

Yeah, honestly, I think for competitive play, it's best to leave the Giant at home. For fun games, though, it can be great. I've had it perform pretty well in fun games, and, Giant vs. Giant fights are always cool.

It's a cool model. I dunno. I put it out there when I am looking to have a good time.

Urgat
22-01-2010, 19:35
especially if you only look at yelling as compared to stubborn enemies... it's wonderful against many many things - in fact I'd say it's one of the best things you could ask for, just not against stubborn opponents

Yeah? Yell and bawl screwed me up a number of times. When I field my giant, I use it to make combined charges. So unit 1 (say savage boar boyz) obliterates half the unit. Then giant yells... And instead of winning by 6 or 7 (before giant enters with his big fat clumsy feet), I win by 2. Weeeeeh. I've grown to dislike my giants precisely because of that.

Witchblade
22-01-2010, 20:25
Yeah? Yell and bawl screwed me up a number of times. When I field my giant, I use it to make combined charges. So unit 1 (say savage boar boyz) obliterates half the unit. Then giant yells... And instead of winning by 6 or 7 (before giant enters with his big fat clumsy feet), I win by 2. Weeeeeh. I've grown to dislike my giants precisely because of that.
That plus ASF giants that yell before your other troops get to strike.

blackjack
22-01-2010, 21:39
HPA is not broken!!! stubborn with ld 8 has 17% chance of fleeing from combat (if it loses)! besides if you roll feed, it will do almost no damage!
Its good and a bit undercosted but definitly not broken. the doomwheel is a lot more "broken" then the HPA

LOL what is this sarcasm? Have you played against an HPA and a wheel? the Wheel is nothing compared to the HPA. Run an HPA at some knights, or dragon ogres and get back to me about how usless feed is...

Giants are great and not much overcosted the problem is that he simply does not compare to the HPA or the much cheaper Hydra. If the giant got regen for free he would be a match to the other two.

decker_cky
22-01-2010, 23:31
Something to consider with the HPA is that it can be panicked if I'm not mistaken. While still rock solid, this is a weakness that's seldom talked about. Break or destroy a unit beside it and has a 28% chance of fleeing away.

Darkangeldentist
22-01-2010, 23:55
I like the WoC giant, he's better than the giants of most other armies, in part because of his 'chomp' attack. Alas that doesn't make a great choice compared to the other rare slots in the WoC book.

I do really like fielding one though, particularly with the mark of Slaanesh. ASF is particularly nasty. You do need to give your opponent plenty of other targets though. I find he fits in very nicely in a Kholek list. That guy is both big and scary enough to attract all of your opponents attention and still keep coming. So with Kholek acting as fire magnet the giant has a decent chance to do something.