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Ba'al Starslayer
22-01-2010, 00:56
So, with the apparent Black Templars codex soon to be released (I'm not confirming anything, I'm just going by rumours and trend of GW), I was wondering.... what is there left for them to be unique?
Space Wolves received Counter Attack and Furious Charge USRs, and the Blood Angels are apparently getting Furious Charge and 2 attacks on their basic profile.
Also, SW got Thunderwolves, BA got Exalted (And both got a nice amount of SCs) but what can be added that's in BT fluff that isnt already in the list?
With all these glorious treats going out to other CC-orientated chapters... what could GW actually DO to make Templars unique? If you understand where I'm coming from...

Lord Malorne
22-01-2010, 00:58
You should be more worried about what will be left for DA ;). Vows, Black Templars will get vows, preferred enemy :evilgrin:.

Malakai
22-01-2010, 01:03
You should be more worried about what will be left for DA ;).

lol, Oh my lovely Dark Angels. They really are a mess aren't they? :cries:

Corax
22-01-2010, 01:04
Hang on a second. I'll just go get my violin...

WinglessVT2
22-01-2010, 01:14
Tau, then templars or another xeno, then all the other xeno, and more marines.

It's a circle that's continued without fail for a thousand upon a million years.

If the tau and blood angels sell really, really well, GW will give us more xeons between the tons of marines.

Raibaru
22-01-2010, 01:25
Black Templar will be fine. They have the combo units, terminator wargear, army wide rules, champion. There's tons that gives them some character. As the above poster said, Dark Angels are the ones that GW has left no real option. May as well put Belial and Sammael in the SM Codex and call it a day.

sic
22-01-2010, 01:31
Well if the current marine dexs are anything to go by there will new special characters that grant army wide special rules as well as the Emperors champion. So I guess you'll have vows like the current dex with the EC but also some other neat tricks that a chapter master might confer to the army.

The Sword brethren might get a bit of tweaking and there'll probably be a whole heap of furious charge. Maybe some mixing up of weapons costs (more in line with the SMC) and some unique wargear.

As it stands theres still some stuff in the templar dex that stands out as unique now, LRC as transports, Holy orb, better Chaplains, stuff like that i would expect them to keep.

The DA definately need more love in the unique stakes.

lordmoon
22-01-2010, 01:44
Jousting land speeder units.

IcedAnimals
22-01-2010, 01:55
They could go into much further depth with sword brethren. Neophytes+Initiates and how they work. Most SM armies go for the "elite" feel. BT could be more zergy marines. Emperors champion and vows will likely get a complete overhaul.

And don't forget that each marine army dex tends to get new toys. Trust me. Templars will be fine when their dex is released. However don't expect it this year.

Firaxin
22-01-2010, 02:08
Thunderwolves,

Jousting land speeder units.

Given that Mankind has overcome its differences, you'll likely see lance-wielding marines riding jihading camels. :angel:

I could see some unique close combat weapons being made available to non-independent characters. Like broadsword type things that increase strength but don't act as power weapons. Or allowing combat shields as a squad upgrade. Etc.

lordmoon
22-01-2010, 02:21
more camelry is always welcomed.

Absolutionis
22-01-2010, 02:29
Jousting land speeder units.Come on now. Don't take away the last sliver of what makes the Eldar special.

lordmoon
22-01-2010, 02:33
Come on now. Don't take away the last sliver of what makes the Eldar special.

but they have jousting bikes not speeders. Now when Templars have little flowers on their tanks, then the eldar will have nothing special.

Absolutionis
22-01-2010, 02:41
but they have jousting bikes not speeders. Now when Templars have little flowers on their tanks, then the eldar will have nothing special.Blood Angel rumors have it that they will contain long-haired "Pretty Marines" with tight power pants. Just add flowers and purple paint.

On the subject of new codecies ripping cool things from Eldar, I bet Dark Angels are going to get Jetbike Troops (with lances in a Fast Attack slot) and Black Templars are going to get Runes of Warding (Words of Hate?) and Bladestorm (Bolterstorm?) and Banshee Masks (Chaplain AngryFaic Warcry?).

lordmoon
22-01-2010, 02:49
well it would be green paint and flowers but still would hit the point home.

and your forgetting the Blood Angels eye lasers that function like mandiblasters.

primarch16
22-01-2010, 03:50
Were still wicked original, we've got the Emperors chamion who gives the entire army vows (I'm sure they will get a buff in the new dex). Mixed squads, initiates and crusaders with no veteran seargents. Sword Bretheren will be getting a buff too I imagine, with more options. I think our chaplains will be receiving a buff too, as we are renowned for them. Righteouse Zeal will be fixed which will be most welcome. Granted everyone stole the Land raider crusader, but maybe we will get blessed hull for free on this bad boy in the new dex to set them from the rest. Few ideas I had:

Black Templars purgatation squad: Elite unit with every initiate having the option for a flamer, would be very fluffy and put the fear of god into orks, nids etc. Much like the witch hunters ones, but were kinda in the same league. Maybe some kind of phycic defence too? Help them with burning witches.

Some form of bike unit with lances, makes me cringe a little but it wouldnt half surprise me. They gave space wolves wolves to ride after all.

Close combat dreadnought. Dual weilding giant swords is good.

But I'm no game designer. I'm sure GW will come up with something.

lordmoon
22-01-2010, 03:54
Were still wicked original, we've got the
Some form of bike unit with lances, makes me cringe a little but it wouldnt half surprise me. They gave space wolves wolves to ride after all.


and you know they will be awesome.

Netfreakk
22-01-2010, 04:02
I agree with the posters above about the sword bretherns.

They could make them fleeting with all relic blades, WS6, A2 base, and combat shields. I don't think this would make them too crazy as they would still have 3+/5+ saves.

They could also make an army wide vow that give them something like 5+ to ignore psychic abilities.

or do something about those neophytes like make all neophytes fleeting as they're not encumbered by PA.

primarch16
22-01-2010, 04:11
and you know they will be awesome.

It would be quite cool, maybe have them count as power weapons and melta bombs :D

lordmoon
22-01-2010, 04:24
It would be quite cool, maybe have them count as power weapons and melta bombs :D

just want to see a unit slay a Valkyrie.

MajorWesJanson
22-01-2010, 04:38
Well, each book has sort of an overall theme:
Space Marines: Flexable, Jack of all Trades, Chapter Tactics
Space Wolves: Characters, individuality, counterattack
Blood Angels: Assault/jump packs, fast vehicles, Rage/Furious Charge
Black Templars: Crusaders, duels, likely a focus on chaplains
Dark Angels: Secrecy, Fallen, Old Technology.

wilsongrahams
22-01-2010, 07:40
Why all the Black Templar fuss? Blood Angels and Space Wolves are FIRST FOUNDING CHAPTERS, so they should be made unique before other armies. Black Templars have a totally unique force organisation chart, so they don't need special rules to play different. What I'd prefer is some Imperial Fist love, as most players don't even know that Black Templars are a second founding of the IF.

Xelloss
22-01-2010, 08:22
Our estimated brothers of the imperial fist follow perfectly the astartes codex. They don't really need a dedicated codex (maybe a fixed trait system, but that would wait for the next SM codex).

Back to the next BT codex, I would totally see :
- neophyte bikers
- sword brethren bikers with power lance
- maybe some kind of mini-chaplain as a squad upgrade
- Vows with an equivalent level of power, that can be decided at the beginning of the game (to avoid the need of doing a whole new army list each time you want to change the vow)

But maybe that's just wishlisting...

marv335
22-01-2010, 08:32
Some form of bike unit with lances, makes me cringe a little but it wouldnt half surprise me. They gave space wolves wolves to ride after all.



That's actually something I would expect to see on the Dark Angels Ravenwing, Not Black Templars.
BT are from IF stock, and have no chapter history of that sort of behaviour from their recruiting worlds. It just doesn't fit.

What I expect for the BT, is storm shield/relic blade sword brethren.

R0ot
22-01-2010, 09:35
- As already said some kind of storm shields/combat shields for normal squads.
- Maybe a change to some of the upgrades they can have (ditch the heavy weapons in crusader squads because they just don't feel right for a CC army).
- Maybe a some changes put into vows to make the preferred enemy one to not be the one and only vow worth taking in 5th.
- Again as already said jousting bikes/land speeders feck yeah!
- More chaplain love
- Some new special characters (that aren't special characters) like the other SM chapters have please!
- How about a few upgrades for the Emperor's Champion like plasma pistol or can use the holy hand grenade (I don't really have any arguments about the invul save not applying to to shooting as CC is what he's meant to be in the thick of).
- LRC love please! The built in blessed hull would be nice for a alternate style to Templar LRC's but a point reduction would be lovely too.
- Since psychic powers have taken a bit more of a fore front since the last BT codex release a little bit more psychic defence for the chapter that won't fight with any psykers even as allies might be nice.
- Make sword brethren tournament viable please! Maybe a special character that lets you take a squad or two as troops or objective capturing units.

Think that's the end to my wish list, apart from maybe the inclusion of a Whirlwind? Since they are detailed as being in the bloody crusades at the back of the BT codex! :D

maze ironheart
22-01-2010, 09:47
Hang on a second. I'll just go get my violin...

Would be so awful if a space marine codex got left out :rolleyes: when their are other armys in need of an update.

radical ed
22-01-2010, 09:52
since wolves got a wolf, how about a giant mechanical horse? go fukll tilt with the crusading knights theme?

i play BT but really dont want a new dex. the only thing that is wrong is the weapons not being the same as codex marines. thunder hammers, cyclones etc. The rest of it is solid. New models would be nice, but just for a new dex, no thanks.

Dark Angels tho? They need one 1st. as someone already posted, they should go really gothic, robey, with older tech, more powerful tech: autocannons in tac squads, plasma that dosent overheat, mortis dreads, anti-grav bike units, webbers to catch those "pesky fallen"....etc.

marv335
22-01-2010, 14:44
since wolves got a wolf, how about a giant mechanical horse? go full tilt with the crusading knights theme?

Because they don't have any background linking them to this in the slightest?

Unlike the DA who have the Ravenwing? you know, the brotherhood of mounted warriors, originally on horses, who now ride bikes?

BT don't have anything remotely like this.
They have never had anything like this.
Sword Brethren on foot, fine, no problem with that, but on bikes with lances?
Just don't go there.

Lord Malorne
22-01-2010, 14:59
As they are primarily fleet based and have many marshals and jail from many different worlds with different cultures (which does make knight bikers possible) I think we will get a healthy dose of Special characters to modify army selection. In some cases I would say out terminators should get some love because of the nature of the chapter.

Earthbeard
22-01-2010, 15:03
BIONIC super horses for the knight units to ride around on. (j/k)

I can't really see the Black Templars really changing too much, just tidying up really.

marv335
22-01-2010, 15:05
Terminators with relic blades could be good.

jason_sation
22-01-2010, 15:09
Come on now. Don't take away the last sliver of what makes the Eldar special.

Maybe the Templars can specialize in Jousting on the back of giant ostriches, over vast fields of lava.

WinglessVT2
22-01-2010, 15:16
We're going to end up wth blood angels riding vampirebats, templars on robot horses, and dark angels on bionic lions, aren't we?

Maybe gray knights can ride around on winged books, or have thrones mounted on top of their land raiders.

primarch16
22-01-2010, 15:27
I do agree, Lances is a little bit meh to me, maybe taking the crusading knight thing a little far. But I can see GW doing it.

Maybe Templars will become a predominant drop pod assault army? Since were mostly fleet based I can see that kind of attack happening a fair bit. More swords and sheilds would be ace too.

Memnos
22-01-2010, 15:27
Terminators with relic blades could be good.

Ah! You mean 'Grey Knights', since that's exactly what Grey Knights have.

WinglessVT2
22-01-2010, 15:31
Templars should be the de-facto mechanized marines, with the most land raiders.

drmarco
22-01-2010, 15:37
Ahem...

Far be it from me to interrupt, as basically this IS a 'Black Templar' thread...

But you seem to be forgetting the fact that the Black Templars are an offshoot of a much bigger original legion...

Seeing the trends that exist already, and the rumoured trends of how the upcoming Blood Angels codex might involve a large portion of how their successors interact, might it be a reasonable step to consider a more 'familial' codex, that expands on the Fists (both imperial and crimson) and the Templars?

I know the Fist characters feature in the SM vanilla codex, but surely that lack of specialisation doesn't reflect the defensive master builders of the Emperor's Palace and their questing and stoic descendants?

Trying not to devolve to wishlisting here, but might that not be the simplest way to expand a 'Templars' codex, and still keep them in context, with generic rules that apply to the 'Fist successors?

Marco

Luisjoey
22-01-2010, 15:37
"Preferred enemy" would be their sole trait

i hope many troops with terminators honours added (2 attacks)
and lots of New Characters and Troop choices.

Hope they keep the STRONG chaplain builds chances

I been playing SM Imperial fist since 5th ed, but last night i was playing with the armybuilder finding that Black Templars are really expensive and mostly unarmed (I.e troops without frag/krak grenades, dread without smoke launchers, etc)

Xelloss
22-01-2010, 15:43
Templars should be the de-facto mechanized marines, with the most land raiders.

I kind of agree. BT are not just an CC army (the buff of preferred enemy is quite misleading now), they are a mobile army. Additional movement in the opponent shooting phase, better transport choices, and no access to "static units" as devastators and whirlwind.
For example, with AC spam and vindicators they can be really good in mid-range shooting.


Black Templars are really expensive and mostly unarmed (I.e troops without frag/krak grenades, dread without smoke launchers, etc)
Welcome to a 4th edition codex.

primarch16
22-01-2010, 15:45
Ahem...

Far be it from me to interrupt, as basically this IS a 'Black Templar' thread...

But you seem to be forgetting the fact that the Black Templars are an offshoot of a much bigger original legion...

Seeing the trends that exist already, and the rumoured trends of how the upcoming Blood Angels codex might involve a large portion of how their successors interact, might it be a reasonable step to consider a more 'familial' codex, that expands on the Fists (both imperial and crimson) and the Templars?

I know the Fist characters feature in the SM vanilla codex, but surely that lack of specialisation doesn't reflect the defensive master builders of the Emperor's Palace and their questing and stoic descendants?

Trying not to devolve to wishlisting here, but might that not be the simplest way to expand a 'Templars' codex, and still keep them in context, with generic rules that apply to the 'Fist successors?

Marco

Aye but Imperial Fists basically operate by the codex astartes. If you want a few defensive builds take a load of devastators stick them in ruins and reinforce the ruins with master of the forge :D gonna be hard to shift.

Templars operate completely out of the codex astartes, we recruit differently and from everywhere, were the only chapter still left on the great crusade etc.

drmarco
22-01-2010, 16:12
Not meant as a dismissal of the uniqueness of the Templars, just that even 'Codex' Chapters could focus on different aspects of what the Codex Astartes teaches...

Be a shame not to update the Imperial Fists as one of the few first founded that never really seem to get their own 'independence' from the others in terms of gameplay, especially as their successors are so popular (Crimson fists are literally the coverboys for the original 40k!)...

Marco

Bassline
22-01-2010, 16:17
Idk if any one has said it but Land raider crusaders! Atm I think its like 8 or maybe more BT can field in 1 FOC.... They got to do something with that like 1/2 the price and get 20 odd into the FOC. Keep whole army with preferred enemy and make the champion get FNP!

But tbh i think BT are best marine codex out atm :)

Chiron
22-01-2010, 16:45
Hang on a second. I'll just go get my violin...

Is it the worlds smallest?

R0ot
22-01-2010, 16:59
Idk if any one has said it but Land raider crusaders! Atm I think its like 8 or maybe more BT can field in 1 FOC.... They got to do something with that like 1/2 the price and get 20 odd into the FOC. Keep whole army with preferred enemy and make the champion get FNP!

But tbh i think BT are best marine codex out atm :)

Which tbh isn't saying much. I love my BT army got about 5000k points worth or so at this stage and enjoy their background and the way they play but against a lot of armies they are sub standard especially in the cheese lists grouping.

I am quite content with the codex and a few clarifications about certain things (like the LRC assault vehicle rule being missing) and maybe a tweek or two is all the codex needs but my wishlist still stands whether I get it or not is another question. :D

Skyros
22-01-2010, 19:51
They'll be able to launch pieces of Eden into the atmosphere in order to mind control their opponents.

Corax
23-01-2010, 10:07
Is it the worlds smallest?

I don't know if its the smallest, but its preeety tiny...