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Negafex
20-05-2005, 16:55
not sure if its been posted before but i wanted to start a discussion on general ogre tactics

should one go for maxed out lords and heros or cheaper ones?
are gnoblars really worth the points?
ogre bulls vs ironguts vs leadbelchers?
is a scraplauncher worth more than just a few laughs?
do the special characters get any armor saves( i havent been able to find any armor or anything)?
do they really hold their ground against other armys?

looking for helpfull tactics from both ogre players and opponents alike

kyussinchains
29-05-2005, 12:21
I'm a relative newcomer to the ogres, and I got roundly panelled when I first started playing with them. I've learned a few things based on my experiences, which I'll share here.

1)Ironguts are massively superior to bog standard bulls! the great weapons make them effective all round, they have twice the save against missile fire (admittedly still pathetic at 5+) and the extra point of leadership is vital. Use bulls as flanking units, but dont rely on them to take on anything more threatening than units of basic core troops.

2)Hunters are excellent units! use the sabretusks to dispose of potentially dangerous wizards, with their 16" charge, they can run down most wizards, and the fact they cause fear is an added bonus. Against elf mages, 6 S4 attacks is usually enough to dispose of them. They're also handy for getting rid of pesky elf loremasters, who cannot wear armour. The best use I've found for them so far, is to charge down the Heirophant of a tomb king army, as they're rarely placed inside a unit. The hunter is excellent for killing a few knights with his crossbow, especially if you get them in the flank, he's also no slouch in combat either. I usually give him mastodon armour to keep him alive pretty much regardless of how many cannonballs he eats.

3)Leadbelchers are potentially devastating units, but also, they can't be relied upon, I've had a unit of 4 leadbelchers fire, get 2 misfires, kill 2 members of their own unit and score a pathetic 5 shots, only 2 of which hit, additionally, I've also had a unit of leadbelchers kill 22 elf spearmen in one volley, so it's a case of taking the rough with the smooth. They work well as deterrant units, and can be nasty against large monsters thanks to the +1 to hit, the best bet is to put them on the flank to prevent anyone sneaking around the back.

4)Maneaters seem great, but all they're really good for is blocking charges!, they never have the numbers to win a fight against a decent sized enemy unit, and the fact that they can't take a standard bearer works against them. Having said that however, 3 maneaters with cathayan longswords can hold up against all but the very best enemy units, giving you a chance to get your tyrant and ironguts in there to dish out some meaty punishment.

5)I try to max out on characters whenever possible, an ogre bruiser with some choice items is a match for most lords of other races, and tyrants are destructive beasts, especially with the thundermace, the mace is fantastic for blasting huge chunks out of densely packed units of elves, skeletons and humans, and also can cause severe damage to units of ironbreakers and other heavily armoured troops. I also like to give all my characters the 'mawseeker' big name, and my tyrant gets the jade lion so he can re-roll the stupidity test. +1 toughness is EASILY worth 10 points and stupidity, especially when a nearby butcher casts toothcracker on the character's unit, giving everyone a further +1 toughness. Butchers have some of the best spells in the game, as well as the hellheart, which is fantastic for effectively negating a magic phase, as most sensible generals dont try to cast spells when their wizards stand a fair chance of exploding into a shower of giblets.

6)Goblars are tricky to use correctly, I found them best used as a skirmish screen, when they get charged, you get to stand and fire with 40+ shots, which through sheer volume of fire may cause a few casualties, then if they run, no-one cares. They also work well against wizards riding pegasuses or equivalent weak flyers, as the rank bonus is usually enough to win the combat, they might even cause a wound if you get lucky.

sword gnoblars are a waste of points, but then you probably could figure that out for yourself.

my recommendations for a typical ogre army of approximately 2000 pts would include

Tyrant
butcher with the hellheart
Bruiser with army standard
hunter with 2 sabretusks

8 bulls with ironfists and light armour
8 ironguts with the war banner
2x30 gnoblars
3 maneaters with longswords and heavy armour
4 leadbelchers

that's about it, if you could squeeze a scraplauncher in there, it would probably be a good idea.

Tactics wise, I've found that deploying your combat units in 2 ranks of 4 models works well, you get +1S bonus for all the models in the front rank when you bull charge, and a rank bonus for the first round, assuming you win, which with a unit of ironguts and a tyrant is pretty certain, you can then expand frontage, negate the rank bonus of the enemy unit, and get 4 more ogres into combat.

that's what I've learned so far, maybe I'll have some of tactics proven wrong, but until then I'm sticking to them. I appreciate comments and criticisms

Cheers!

Artemis_Quinn
29-05-2005, 13:36
I don't play with ogres and I don't play against them very much. but what I have found is that Gnoblars are a must. Whenever he charged one of my clanrat units with his ogres he barely did enough damage to tie combat from all of the negative resolution modifiers he started out at. But whenever he charged with gnoblars too they cancelled out all of those bonuses I could hold over his head and it destroyed me in resolution. Though once the ogres break through the front line the gnoblars are next to useless.

taer
29-05-2005, 18:04
All I know is that zombies and Ogres do not mix at all. Without the ability to cause a few wounds to the Ogres and the fact zombies are really squishy...well, the combat res ends up something along the lines of "Hey, I get 3 rank and a standard....You get 8 kills and unit strength....o dear."

Azroth
29-05-2005, 22:48
Although I don't claim to be an Ogre Kingdoms pro, I must say that I disagree with most of the things kyussinchains said. I'm not awake enough at the moment to come with a long, sensible post about everything, but I will make out a few points. Keep in mind that these are purely my own, humble opinions and nothing more, so treat them accordingly.

* Hunters are really not that great. There are plenty of other choices in the army that fulfill the same functions better and/or more cost-efficiently. Really.

* The Hellheart basically sucks. It's very expensive and one use only. Also, according to the the temporary FAQ on the GW site, can be quite dangerous to your own Buthcers. It also really doesn't affect some of the magic heavy-hitters, like Tomb Kings and Slann.

* The Thundermace... well, it basically sucks too. Sure, it can be devestating sometimes, but you get one attack, and only one, which will at best hit at 3+. A normal great weapon will probably perform better nine times out of ten.

* Mawseeker causes Stupidity. What more is there to say? I know that I at least don't want a Stupid general for my army. You can use the Jade Lion of course, but then we're talking 40 points, and you can still fail that all-important test.

* Some people use a bruiser with an army standard, but I prefer not to. A Fistful of Laurels for your Tyrant is so much cheaper.

* A unit that numbers eight Ogres before you add characters is not a great idea in my opinion. I usually have units that aren't bigger than six with characters, and certainly not bigger than eight (six Ironguts+Tyrant+Brusier/Butcher).

* Gnoblars are more or less a must. In 2000 points, I would say a unit of 8-10 Trappers and 2-3 units of 20 Fighters is about right.

Just a few (hopefully) helpful pointers. Remember, I'm not an expert myself (more of a newbie actually), so don't think that everything I say is kosher. It is after all only my opinions. For more of other people's opnions about Ogres, why not check this (http://www.ogrestronghold.com) out?

Cheers.

EDIT: Oh, and another thing. Never ever use a Bruiser as a General instead of a Tyrant, unless the game is under 2000 points of course. The Tyrant is vastly superior in every possibly way, alway take him. Just trust me on this one, ok?

kyussinchains
29-05-2005, 23:48
I accept that the thundermace is a risk, but it can be used as a great weapon also, the thing is, even with 5 attacks, you're probably going to hit with 3 (on average) which means 3 dead enemy troops (armour saves notwithstanding), if you miss with the thundermace, that's pretty awful, but when you do hit, it's FAR more devastating, with the 2.5 inch template, you can potentially hit 20 enemy troops on 20mm bases. and around 16 on 25mm bases, you can usually hit 6-7 knights too. Now although the majority of the hits are S4, I'd still wager on killing more troops with say 12 hits at S4 no armour save, than with 5 attacks having to roll to hit, on average, against a T4 WS4 enemy, you'll kill twice as many with the thundermace.
I may be wrong, but so far, I've not suffered too badly.

My hunter was a pain at first, I only really bought him because I love the model, but after a few games of not really thinking, I put him on the flank, quite near to a unit of spearmen with a wizard in the front rank. I charged the spearmen with the tusks and shot a unit of 6 knights in the flank with the crossbow, the tusks killed the wizard and the crossbow took out 4 knights, effectively ruining the unit. Now again I know this wont happen every time, but if you dont take the hunter, you lose the chance of it ever happening.

The gnoblars are a good buy, the one problem I find is that they're too slow to work perfectly with the ogres, there seems little point in having movement 6 if you're not going to move that far, because you dont want to outrun your support unit. Also, against tough units like chaos warriors and swordmasters, gnoblars are basically giving away combat resolution, you only need to kill 4 of them to almost completely negate their effect, plus they have the bicker rule, which means they tend to be unreliable just when you need them.

I concede about the units of 8, I usually buy 7 and stick a character in there, if you give your tyrant the wallcrusher big name, and he has an ogre in the rank behind him, you get 2 S6 impact hits on charge, which can help to offset the risk of the thundermace.

Cpt. Drill
30-05-2005, 01:45
First of all fighting zombies is a criminal mistake you will be bogged down foever! literelly for ever!

Secondly kyussinchains knoblars are ok but no one will ever be stupid enough to charge a weak flyer into a rank file unit even if it is gnoblars!

In my opinion ogres are not a great army... its a sad thing to say because im really like them... but no they are a bit mediocor. my rundown of the thinkgs in it are...

Tyrant is big and smashy, it is definatyly a competetor for the scaryest things to face in warhammer! He (or she) is also quite affordable! the thunder mace is also very good, but it does have that chance of failure...

Butchers are kings they are the things in the ogre army that will win you the games in 1500+ you must have two minimun if you dont I laugh alot!

Bruisers are good but take up those slots for butchers! but you will need one for some combat res!

Hunters seem ok expensive and average but the sabertusks are definatly a good thing just to kamakazi into a unit and kill characters!!!

Ogre bulls provided you give them the adition hand weapon then they are awsome! jest because you need to hope that you get bull gorger off on them because they really make a mess of things which makes up for their pitiful WS3... also i think that the light armour is a waste on them also if you want to be super eco then dont give them iron fists as i have them to give me the choice.. bit i have never seena good occation when you may want to use them...

Iron guts are really good because they can beat the ogres worse enemy CAVELRY make sure you have the spell trollguts on them and you will be able to recieve a charge and hopefully win! the problem is they dont have the attacks to get lucky and win combats against rank-file infanty by themselfs... thats where having regular ogres work well!

I see gnoblars on paper as being the answer to ogres problems but in game *sigh* gnoblars squabble and are slow! But they provide the 3 ranks and outnumber bonus which most of your other units will be lacking!

Gnoblar trappers are awsome as they can kill cannon crews and hunt down lone wizards or just march block!

Leadbelchers are one of the best units to have on your flank i take them in units of two because then you never see the massive overkill on one unit of light cav... but they are as fickle as the dice in your hand... more than often i will score two hits and six on myself... but i will always tak them after killing 13 chosen nurgle warriors of chaos!

Yhetis are great in game.. but look terrible simple enough....

the scrap launcher is quite good but i havent used it enough.... :rolleyes:

Maneaters are soo expensive but with magic (mmmm... a commmon theme now!) are soo goodthey are also possibly my favorite part of the army because they are some of the coolest models in the GW range i think!

Tactics wise avoid bretonians at all cost.... because none of your units will win combats and run away like the fools they are! umm.. magic wins you games always if your loose magic you will loose games....

well thats my opinion i have used this army alot played all warhammer world armys and think it is a mediocor list!

IF ANY OF YOU DESIGNERS ARE OUT THERE MAKE IRON GUTS WS4 IT WILL MAKE THEM GOOD (i say this because they are described as the ELITE of the army but are as raggy as the rest of the loosers... for more points i would still buy them maybe if they were special then it would be more fair... but at the moment they cant win combats!!!)

taer
30-05-2005, 03:13
Unless you were playing (like I was) the new Zombie pirates list, in which case those casualties ain't ever coming back. I think I chose the worst opponent for that army for my first game with them. Kinda like if I started tomb kings and my first game was against a mortal khorne force.

Azroth
30-05-2005, 10:22
Some very good points here.


Tyrant is big and smashy, it is definatyly a competetor for the scaryest things to face in warhammer! He (or she) is also quite affordable! the thunder mace is also very good, but it does have that chance of failure...

The Tyrant is quite good, but I'm not yet convinced about the Thundermace. It's too unreliable, and I do think you need your Tyrant for that pretty reliable +3 CR his kills will grant (on average with a normal GW). The Thundermace is sweet when it hits, I'm not denying that, but what about when it misses? Your Tyrant contributes nothing to the fight, your enemy has ranks and outnumber, and you lose, run and die. That won't always happen of course, but think about how devastating it can be when it does.

A possible solution to this problem, and to get that reliability that I crave so much, could be to use a Bruiser with the Thundermace in the same unit as the Tyrant. That way you have a much better chance of winning when the Thundermace misses, and when it hit... You all get the picture. Worth trying out I think.


Butchers are kings they are the things in the ogre army that will win you the games in 1500+ you must have two minimun if you dont I laugh alot!

Well, I don't think they will win you any games on their own, but they can certainly help a lot by enhancing your best units to scary levels. Also, a Butcher with the Skullmantle casting Braingobbler can be so much fun...


Hunters seem ok expensive and average but the sabertusks are definatly a good thing just to kamakazi into a unit and kill characters!!!

Again, I still think there are better solutions. But it is sort of viable I guess...


Ogre bulls provided you give them the adition hand weapon then they are awsome! jest because you need to hope that you get bull gorger off on them because they really make a mess of things which makes up for their pitiful WS3... also i think that the light armour is a waste on them also if you want to be super eco then dont give them iron fists as i have them to give me the choice.. bit i have never seena good occation when you may want to use them...

What can I say? The general consensus seems to be to give important/big units extra hand weapons, to keep small flanking units naked, and not bother with IF/LA. Me? I take Ironfists purely because they look so bloody cool (actually, I'm giving most of the two Ironfists), and besides, a bit of variety never hurts. It's only one point more after all. Since I know I will usually use them as extra hand weapons I tend not to bother with light armour to save at least some points.


Iron guts are really good because they can beat the ogres worse enemy CAVELRY make sure you have the spell trollguts on them and you will be able to recieve a charge and hopefully win! the problem is they dont have the attacks to get lucky and win combats against rank-file infanty by themselfs... thats where having regular ogres work well!

Basically agree with this. Ironguts are nice...


I see gnoblars on paper as being the answer to ogres problems but in game *sigh* gnoblars squabble and are slow! But they provide the 3 ranks and outnumber bonus which most of your other units will be lacking!

And a table quarter for 40 points is a bargain. Gnoblars are nice.


Gnoblar trappers are awsome as they can kill cannon crews and hunt down lone wizards or just march block!

Yup, Trappers are awesome. Never leave home without them. And the models are bloody cool as well.


Leadbelchers are one of the best units to have on your flank i take them in units of two because then you never see the massive overkill on one unit of light cav... but they are as fickle as the dice in your hand... more than often i will score two hits and six on myself... but i will always tak them after killing 13 chosen nurgle warriors of chaos!

I personally don't like Leadbelchers, but that's mostly from a modelling standpoint. They can work, but are very hit and miss. Just never rely on their shooting ability and you'll be fine. They might even surprise you now and again. And remember that it only takes to Ogres in the flank to negate ranks.


Yhetis are great in game.. but look terrible simple enough....

Couldn't agree more. I must admit that I haven't actually tested them, but they certainly look good on paper. I would take Yeheetis (spelling?) over a Hunter any day. Always. Problem is, the models are simply crap (in my own humble opinion of course).


the scrap launcher is quite good but i havent used it enough....

Same here. I hate that model also.


Maneaters are soo expensive but with magic (mmmm... a commmon theme now!) are soo goodthey are also possibly my favorite part of the army because they are some of the coolest models in the GW range i think!

I haven't actually tried them yet, but they seem good for holding a unit in combat while waiting for support, since they don't run. Just don't expect them to kill entire units on their own.

Well, that's it from me for now. Cheers.

Angelripper
30-05-2005, 17:44
I like the combined power of two Regiments of Bulls, two regiments of Ironguts combined with a unit of Yethis on each flank. throw in a unit of Leadbelchers to worry your opponent and you got a quick Army with a massive punch.

You don't need gnoblars. They are slow and only kill something if the enemy drops dead laughin about them. Trappers are a nice unit but they are still ugly.

Tyrants are a must for every army above 2000 Points. The Thundermace is too unreliable IMHO. Butchers are definetly worth their points in gold.
I don't like Maneaters, too expensive IMHO. The Scrap Launcher is ugly but funny.

My Army fights Empire or Dwarf armies about 80% of the games we play. They do quite good. Well at least we always got a lot of fun, and I think thats what they are for, much like Orcs&Goblins. If I desperatly want to win a Game I take my Lizardman or the Darkelves out for a walk. never let me down, except the one time they fought against my own Ogrearmy. ;)

kyussinchains
30-05-2005, 18:14
A possible solution to this problem, and to get that reliability that I crave so much, could be to use a Bruiser with the Thundermace in the same unit as the Tyrant. That way you have a much better chance of winning when the Thundermace misses, and when it hit... You all get the picture. Worth trying out I think.



the one problem with that is the fact that the thundermace is 55 points, which means a bruiser can't take it, and as you can only have one tyrant in an army, it pretty much has to go to him... unless you give it to a slaughtermaster......

EDIT: unless you mean to take the bruiser to dish out the punishment with a great weapon/longsword if the tyrant misses, if that's the case, yeah you can do that!

Azroth
30-05-2005, 21:05
the one problem with that is the fact that the thundermace is 55 points, which means a bruiser can't take it, and as you can only have one tyrant in an army, it pretty much has to go to him... unless you give it to a slaughtermaster......

EDIT: unless you mean to take the bruiser to dish out the punishment with a great weapon/longsword if the tyrant misses, if that's the case, yeah you can do that!

Yeah, I noticed that too when I got home and double-checked my armybook. I could have swore that it was 50 points. Oh well, my mistake.

But of course, we could, as you say, meet halfway and add in a Bruiser with a GW to deal out some guaranteed punishment while the Tyrant does his thing. I still don't like the Thundermace, but I think we'll just have to leave it at that. Agree to disagree?

kyussinchains
31-05-2005, 00:18
Yeah, I noticed that too when I got home and double-checked my armybook. I could have swore that it was 50 points. Oh well, my mistake.

But of course, we could, as you say, meet halfway and add in a Bruiser with a GW to deal out some guaranteed punishment while the Tyrant does his thing. I still don't like the Thundermace, but I think we'll just have to leave it at that. Agree to disagree?

of course!

I can see your point, and I agreed with it when I first started with the ogres, if anything I went too far on the defensive, giving heavy armour, gutplates and ironfists to as many characters as possible to keep them alive. After losing a few, I tried seeing how the thundermace would work, it won me the game against an unbeaten tomb king army, so I took it again, and it worked wonders, against really tough units when winning is vital, you can always aviod the risk element and use it as a great weapon, but when cutting down large rank and file units down to size, I usually opt for the stone thrower rule. I guess a bunch of unlucky games may convince me otherwise, but it's not happened yet!

oh and yeah, the ogres arent really the best army there is, I just really loved the hunter and maneater models, I think my dark elves and slaanesh chaos are both intrinsically more powerful than the ogres, but the ogres are lots of fun

Azroth
31-05-2005, 16:47
You know what? After this, I promise you that I will try the Thundermace out, just for the fun of it. I don't think I'll end up being convinced, but I'll try it. Peace and love man.

And yeah, I agree that Ogres are far from the most powerful army out there, but it is fun, and many of the models are great. I also love the Hunter model, and I'm probably going to use as a base for my Tyrant conversion. And plastic Ogres are just great models. Personally, I don't need more than that. I'd rather have good models and crappy rules than crappy models and uber rules. I play Orks too...

Badgobbla
01-06-2005, 09:39
OK, some points I've noticed after playing a few games with a 1500 pt force (basically the contents of the army deal with a bruiser and a butcher extra):

- Gnoblars are worth a great deal! For 50 points you get 25 gnoblars with a groinbiter which probably won't do that much, but can acts as a deterrent for some units. If your enemy ignores them you can use them for claiming table-quarters or flank-attacks.
- the butcher was not really worth his points imo. Next time I'd take two in a 1500 pt army, because you're bound to fail at least one cast per turn and sometimes even more when you're unlucky (like me).
- the hunter hasn't lived up to his reputation: the sabretusks were quickly killed most of the time and the time the hunter has to spend waiting after his 'tusks go charging is a turn wasted imo.
- I always used the item which grants a 5+ inv. save and i ALWAYS got a wound at the start of each battle (6 iirc!), also the +1T with stupidity is nice, but very average with a Ld 8 Bruiser.
- Ogre Bulls are best used as flanking forces in units of three(as was said before iirc), armed with ironfists for those extra attacks.
- Ironguts are really the cream of the crop: use them in big units so the can withstand all the missile-fire and magic that will be thrown at them.
- Yhetees are very good at flanking and even rear-charging, but be sure they have some back-up while charging.
- gnoblar trappers are very good at stopping march moves and hunting lone wizards or taking care of war machines. Don't expect them to win all their battles, but sometimes a turn or two not shooting from a warmachine can be very good for Ogres.

What armies have I played so far:
- High Elves: got a good clobbering here, but my opponent was very consistent in rolling 5s and 6s for wounding my ogres with missile fire and magic. Normally you should hope for the first turn and charge right in there, just try to stay away from silver helms and dragon princes, unless you can charge them with everal units at once.
- Lizardmen: I won this game, but only barely. Skinks with poisoned blowpipes, darts, javelins and other cutlery are your bane. There's not much you can do about this, just hope your opponent rolls bad for his to hit.
- Dwarfs: This was a very convincing win, but I had the first turn and the dwarf-player's shooting did next to nothing due to his bad rolls.

kyussinchains
01-06-2005, 18:50
I guess I should add which armies I've playtested against.

Against High elves, I suffered from plenty of nasty magic, and the guy has so much cavalry it's hard to even charge, let alone get some meaty bull charges in there, needless to say I lost the few games I played!

Empire were probably even tougher! as well as the very well armoured cavalry (which only ironguts stand a chance of doing much damage at all to) they have plenty of hand gunners with long rifles, which are excellent for taking out wounded champions or ogres and shrinking the unit down, as well as cannons and volleyguns!

Tomb kings are not too difficult to beat, just dont get complacent and rely on you being faster than them, with the sheer number of spells they get off, they WILL charge you when you dont want to be charged! having said that, maneaters with great weapons will smash those chariot units to bits, and lapping round with only 2 ogres negates all those ranks, winning you the combat by that much of a bigger margin.

I've still got to play against the vampire counts, chaos and lizardmen, but my gaming group only plays every few months, admittedly for about a week solid... I'll be playing tommorow night for the first time since march, so I can try out some new ideas.

Badgobbla
02-06-2005, 13:05
OK, this saturday I have game coming up against Beastmen for 2000 pts (first time).

I think I'm going to field something along these lines:
- tyrant with cathayan longsword and maybe some magical item
- 2 butchers with dispell scrolls
- 2 units gnoblars (2x25)
- 1 big unit of bull ogres (5)
- 1 big unit of Iron Guts (5)
- 3 yhetees
- 8 Gnoblar Trappers
and then I'll fill my points in with units of 3 ogre bulls with ironfists to protect my flanks.

I plan to keep my units together, if possible in two waves, with the first going for the Beastmen that start the game on the board and the second wave to intercept the Beastmen ambushing. I'll try to get as far away as possible from my board edge, to rule out the possibility of the rear ambush. This would leave my opponent with two sides to come from (in fact three, but coming from his own edge seems stupid), i.e. my left and right flank.

kyussinchains
03-06-2005, 14:42
I just lost a game against the high elves, afterwards my mate said that he thought I was going to win it, but a few things went against me, I tried to refuse his flank by putting my 2 gnobolar blocks opposite his archers, while putting my ironguts and maneaters against his knights and his huge unit of 45 spearmen (with a lord and battle standard so you know they're hard!) the maneaters advanced and were charged by his knights, they managed to survive with the last one on 1 wound, then the tyrant and his ironguts charged in and wiped out half the unit, who ran. Then it became a game of cat and mouse between the ironguts and his spearmen, he kept moving back and I didnt want to get charged, so I inched forward, every turn he kept getting fury of khaine on them, as I saved my dice to dispel the ring of corin (which he kept doing trying to kill the thundermace) after he knocked the rank off them, he peppered the rest and wiped out all but the standard bearer, after that it was a simple matter of charging in with his spearmen and winning by miles.

my goblars did great against his archers, killing 5 in one turn with thrown rocks, but I didnt dare get them into combat for fear of losing, my buddy said this won him the game because I didnt get round the side or back of his big unit of spearmen, if I'd charged and had the gnoblars in the flank, I would have won!

lessons: I need to be less cautious, I tried to get everything in position too finely and suffered because my being out of combat was only good for him, ogres arent good at maneuvering, it's best to get stuck in!

mastodon armour on a hunter is great, he got shot and killed so many times and just kept getting up again!

for other armies, placing a couple of cheap war machines at the flanks of a unit is a great flank protector, just flee with the crew and the machine blocks the charge!

I'll talk about my other games as and when they're played

Negafex
07-06-2005, 13:40
for butchers the most neccesary item imo is the halfling cookbook because there is nothing worse than killing off your own guy and since he doesnt have any armor to speak of he is going to need his wounds to withstand attacks. that said he is a great unit who has done more than his points worth of damage in the games i played as well as boost my units to the point where it scares my opponent that i can even do that. and their magic is easy to cast as only a three plus is needed, give him two casting dice a spell and if you can settle for two spells a turn then your all set. and the only reason i ever take gnoblars is to keep my enemys from getting to close to him as he is semi voulnerable

kyussinchains
07-06-2005, 14:12
well, my weekend was terrible!

my best result was a winning draw against the high elves, I lost to empire, tomb kings and high elves multiple times!

my first game I already talked about, but in the second I managed to wipe out most of his stuff and he did the same, so it was a draw (I got about 100 more vps than him)

Against the tomb kings I thought I was doing well, I broke through the middle, wiping out his ushabti and tying up his huge unit of skeletons with my maneaters, then he reformed his tomb guard (with tomb king and prince) who had broken through my bulls and gnoblars, and forced a charge into the flank of my ironguts using magic, needless to say, my ironguts fled and got caught and I lost BADLY

the thing is, I didnt need to be so foolish, when I charged the ushabti it was because I didnt want to charge the tomb guard, get tied up, and get hit in the flank by the ushabti, so I thought I'd charge the ushabti and get out of his charge arc, forgetting that tomb kings can pretty much charge in whatever direction they like thanks to their magic, I didnt overrun with my ironguts because I thought I'd be able to get in the flank of his skeletons and help my maneaters out, if I had done, I probably would have been out of his charge arc and got my tyrant in.

Empire are too good against ogres, they have good missile fire, magic and cavalry, needless to say I got pounded into the ground and lost pretty badly!

Lessons:

Bulls are very ordinary troops, they wont stand up against much at all, and really suffer when charged by cavalry, only take the bare minimum of bulls, maybe with a bellower to use as a flee and rally unit which may get in the flanks.

Ironguts on the other hand are great! especially with a bruiser or tyrant (or both!) to beef them up, I use units of 7 with a character in 2 ranks, charge in, get the +1S on the charge, then expand frontage and lap round

Hunters are difficult to use well, but they are very handy for flank charges, having 10 attacks when you include the sabretusks is very good indeed.

Maneaters are a MUST for the ogres, give them all longswords to help them get hit less easily and so they can hit other troops better, and they make the perfect screen for your ironguts. As the ogres dont have any magic items to bolster their combat resolution or make them stubborn, it is imperitive that you dont get charged by really tough units, maneaters are perfect for this role, I plan on buying another 3 right away.

Butchers are great, I really need a second one, we have a house rule which limits you to 1 dispel scroll, so having 2 butchers, one with the hellheart, would be extremely good!

Gnoblars are not much use at all, against all but the weakest troops, charging gnoblars in the flank is as good as giving away combat result

Leadbelchers are too hit and miss to rely upon, and units of more than 3 are a waste of points, but they can potentially wipe out units of cavalry and take down the toughest monsters, as well as flank charging.

Negafex
07-06-2005, 19:33
i would have to disagree as in the 4 or 5 games i played with larger amounts of bulls(12-16)
they performed exceptionally well as ogre clubs are an instant minus 1 save and bull charge helps. if they have a butcher or two backing them up they can become unstoppable. and leadbelchers are a must for my army as they always take care of pesky troops wishing to charge me.

Nukem
07-06-2005, 21:03
"As the ogres dont have any magic items to bolster their combat resolution or make them stubborn, it is imperitive that you dont get charged by really tough units, maneaters are perfect for this role, I plan on buying another 3 right away."

Toothcracker makes your unit stubborn AND +1 T :)

No one has mentioned the gorger... I always take one of these dudes. It has helped me take out warmachines and even that unlucky dwarflord which I managed to rip in half thanks to killing blow.. woohoo.

I thought I was the only one willing to put Mastadon Armor on my Hunter... but I can see why I'm not the only one.. its just so ammusing to have him run up unleash his cats fire his harpoon and get shot in return.. only to get back up and shoot his bow again :).

My Tyrant used the Siegebreaker Weapon. +3!! Strength and I hit based on the I of the enemy. Yeah ok that can be bad vs Elves, chaos etc but against dwarves.. and most undead heros.. excluding vampires. And I mean having WS6 the worst he can hit on without to hit modifers is a 4+. Now Dwarflords have a high WS but when you use his I value your going to be hitting on 3's which is always better then 4's hehe

Personally, I hate leadbelchers. They have failed me time and again and I have never had a saving grace with them ><

I have to admit I use 2-3 scraplaunchers in my army. With that many pie plates its inevitable that you will roll a couple of 6's. Not to mention that slight chance you knock off a lord character with him failing his lookout sir. That would make my day.

ManEaters are UBER!! They kick so much ass it isn't funny. In the last tourny I was using them as a Dogs of War for my chaos.. a unit of Dwarf Ironbreakers and Longbeards were engaged with them as I had failed to break through the Longbeards last turn. I was down to one maneater model and he had 1 wound left. Now with 4 attacks your not going to win combat so I decided to go after his thane in the Ironbreakers unit. I managed to wound him twice and kill him. And by some twist of fate that maneater lived the battle. *9 Nurgle Chose Knights and my lord flanked the ironbreakers and whomped them* Then got into combat with the Longbeards and it was all over. *on a seperate note my chaos chariot in that game got the MVP award. This guys stonethrower landed on it and needed a 2+ to kill it.. he rolled and 1.. he had the rune of luck I think thats the one that allows you to reroll a dice or something. He rolled another one. That chariot ended up killing a unit of Thunderers, The goblin hewer and 5 ironbreakers.* I know this is orge tactica, but this went along with that great story of the maneater.

I have yet to use a bruiser, but I want to soon. I just picked up the Bruiser model and just love it. Granted I can't spend as much money on the orge's as I want to because my Demon army is calling, but I have around 2000pts of them. I love Ironguts.. they simply kick ass... but a WS4 would be nice since they are the ELITE of the army.. and yes it was said before but needs to be said again.

Butchers are just great. The hellheart is a awsome piece of wargear. Best 50pts I have ever spent on a magic item. It can cause your enemy to rethink casting spells or of course you have the chance to kill the wizards and make the spells fail. Now that miscast one that wounds every butcher on the battlefield.. well thats a risk you need to take. Plus you can always heal your butchers.. yeah it could in turn kill them but healing one wound will deny your enemy half his points. I have yet to lose a butcher in a game.

I see all these people with bad stories about the orge's. I have great stories with them. I have lost one game with them so far and that was against a Empire Dwarf combo.. that was too much shooting for me to handle. 1 on 1 I have beaten empire. And he is a good friend and a very good general. He has won the 2 past tourniments. Yes you need luck when using orge's as most of their units are frail. But you have that chance on just utterly WHOMMPING your enemy. I think you can either win big or lose big with the orge's. I have not seen a close game when using them, but these are just my experiences with them so far.

Cheers.

Negafex
07-06-2005, 22:48
funny story about my butchers, i was playing a small game of about 500 pts and my butcher kills almost all his lizardmen ( one of the armys ogres are good against in my experience) including his bajillion skinks then right as he goes to give my bruiser toothcracker he goes and miscasts and then rolls a 1 on the miscast table so he and every other butcher on the table ( he was my only one thank goodness) blows up.

Nukem
08-06-2005, 02:27
Rofl thats is funny. Mine have a really hard gut then.... none of them have killed themselves or have died in combat.. they are AWSOME!!

Badgobbla
08-06-2005, 07:07
OK, this saturday I have game coming up against Beastmen for 2000 pts (first time).


So, I lost the battle saturday against those beastmen, but it was more because of the huge mount of luck my opponent had than his tactical skills. The battle had begun pretty good: I got first turn and marched up to half of the field. Then my opponent fails an Unrly-test and a unit of Gors-Ungors and a Shaman has to march towards my Yhetees. I charge with the Ice-monsters and overtake them, which leaves me open to a charge from a chariot and a unit of Minotaurs, so I march my unit of Ironguts with Tyrant as far ahead as possible to foil the charge of the chariot. Unfortunately the chariot was still able to charge the Yhetees (he could charge past my Ironguts because we had to roll a die for it :( ). That's where it started going downhill: I started rolling very bad for bull charges (1s and 2s to wound) and my opponent rolled super (5s and 6s to wound).

His ambushing units all turned up ok, so he was able to charge what he wanted, when he wanted. From the moment I lost those Yhetees (I was sure he wouldn't be able to charge past my Ironguts, but the die-roll decided otherwise) the battle was kinda lost, because that forced a panic test in all my closeby units which I promptly fail (one 12, one 10 and one 11 roll, go figure). This meant my battle line was destroyed and all I could do was damage controll (afterwards it was a minor victory for him).

Beastmen are still one of the power-armies out there and if you want to play tourneys and do good I suggest taking them or Skaven, so my result saturday was not really a surprise.
I have to mention that my opponent was used to playing tourneys (which I absolutley hate, I play the game for fun and giggles) and that gave him a bit of an edge.

Avian
08-06-2005, 15:12
Quick question:

I have four spare ogres I haven't assembled yet and parts enough to make them into either Bulls (I currently have 12), Ironguts (I currently have 5, though some double as Maneaters) or Leadbelchers (I currently don't have any)?

Badgobbla
08-06-2005, 16:26
So, what's the question then? What you should make em into? I'd go for the Ironguts as you only have 5 of them. 12 bulls seems enough tho'.
Haven't tested Leadbelcher's yet but I think they should be good too.

Avian
08-06-2005, 16:32
My reasoning is as follows:

-Bulls are decent and cheap and an additional unit means I can have more Gnobbos
-Ironguts are always okay and frees up some of the other models (metal Dragonrune ogres) to be Maneaters
-Leadbelchers might be okay, but when I've proxied them so far they haven't done anything bulls could not have done (apart from blowing themselves up). I like the models, though

Nukem
08-06-2005, 17:30
I bought a unit of ironguts then bought the batallion and I hve 2 extra irongut weapons. So I made the 2 leadbelchers from the batalltion into ironguts and the other 2 into bulls as I hate leadbelchers.

Negafex
08-06-2005, 20:46
leadbelchers are definitely good if you are in the dice gods favor otherwise i would go with the ironguts as they tend to rock. also on a side note if your opponents army has a generally low initiative like lizardmen take the seigebreaker weapon for your tyrant/bruiser. and although man eaters are expensive they are definitely worth their salt in combat and can even tenderize their prey from a range with the brace of handguns

Nukem
09-06-2005, 00:27
Yeah My maneaters use brace of handguns.. I wish you could give them both handguns and longswords.. yeah a bit expensive but damn that would be great.

My Tyrant always uses seigebreaker. As your dude is WS the worst you will hit on is a 4.
And against dwarves with a high ws but low Initative it can crack open those tin cans :)

Negafex
09-06-2005, 01:38
ive been wonderin wots betta a slave giant or a unit of leadbelchers cause i was tinkin that a slavegiant is powerful and really hurts enemy moral ( as in my opponents confidence in his own units) but i know from experience that leadbelchers can be devastating

Nukem
09-06-2005, 02:02
remember the giant isn't stubborn.

Badgobbla
09-06-2005, 06:38
Slavegiants are not so very good I'm afraid. First of all, as Nukem said, he's not stubborn and his special attacks (although good fun) are so random that he most likely won't win any combats.
The Terror-trait is good, but not [i]that[/] good: I mean if they pass their test you just paid 200-odd points for having some units take some psychology tests. I'm definately throwing out the giant in favor of some leadbelchers (I haven't tried these before, but it seems you will have to be a bit lucky with them).

Nukem
09-06-2005, 07:17
bah just get 4 scraplaunchers like me.. rofl

Ummm I much much MUCH rather have a gorger then a slave giant. Its hard for me to pass up one of these guys. My 2250 list usually runs me 1 Gorger and 5 maneaters. Expensive yes, but in my opinion worth its weight in gold.

My gorger has paid for himself time and again.. he killed a dwarf lord :) Caused the chaos hell cannon to break its bonds and chase him. Forced mages to hide, preventing them from casting damaging spelles at my big units. And for 75 points a bargain in my opinion. Hes a better investment then a slave giant.

Badgobbla
09-06-2005, 09:25
Haven't tried the Gorger yet, but it seems very good against static shooty/magic armies where you're sure he will be in combat around turn 3 or 4.

How do you think it will fare against armies that are coming towards you (ie beastmen, chaos, etc)?

And idd, I think it will be a better investment than a slavegiant.

BTW do you really use 4 scraplaunchers? Haven't tried one of these things too, you know. Is it worth taking? I think it contradicts a bit with the fact that your units are charging towards your opponent and thus take away the line of sight of your 'launcher.

kyussinchains
09-06-2005, 11:47
I really tried to make bulls work, but they just dont, if you leave them with ogre clubs, the extra -1 save is nice, but you get less attacks and the best save you can get is 6+ which is basically not worth having. Against a unit of bulls armed like this, even elf archers will make a mess of them, especially if you get curse of arrow attraction cast on them. They only need to kill 1 model to take off a rank, which is not hard with a mere T4 and light armour.

I would take no bulls at all if it was an option, they're an utter waste of points.

My ideal army (which I'm working on) would have 2 biggish units of ironguts and 2 units of 3 maneaters, couple that with a unit of 3 bulls and a couple of tough characters, and you've got all the good elements of the ogres and none of the bad.

In addition, if you use units of bulls, they are quite susceptible to panic after a hard round of shooting/magic, ironguts have that all important LD8 to tide them over, and it's saved my butt many times.

Avian
09-06-2005, 12:04
Maybe you're just not a very good player? :D

I've just finished converting my second unit of Bulls to have light armour (strap on some shields, straps from GS and a bit of battering with a knife and file. My favourite for Bulls is one unit of 5 + character and another of 7 + character. Very decent units.

Nukem
09-06-2005, 18:14
I have taken 4 scraplaunchers before and it was hilarious.My army stayed put except for my gnoblar trappers. I managed to kill a empire wizard/empire captain/ a WHOLE unit of swordsmen and a cannon. Now the swordsmen took 3 shots that all stuck the shot... which will never happen for me again. 1 did misfire and hurl a axe right into the groin of the rinox but I rolled low for the charge distance and it didn't reach my tyrants unit, which would have sucked so much ><

Now I just did this for fun I don't suggest doing unless you want a funny game because that game sure was. I usually take one though. just for that chance of skewering a character with a lucky roll :D

kyussinchains
09-06-2005, 20:05
Maybe you're just not a very good player? :D

Maybe that's the case, but maybe the people YOU play arent very good generals, ;) I know for sure that I wouldnt have any problems at all dealing with units of standard bulls, they're just not that threatening, and none of my gaming group have problems dealing with units of bulls, against knights they cant get through the armour, even with a -2 save, empire knights have a 3+ save against it, and the WS3 of standard bulls means they get hit. a LOT, if you've not got an ironfist, they will die in droves!

see, my issue is that I'm not a bad player as far as I can tell, and I do alright with my other armies, I just think the ogres are underpowered is all, and that's why I'm having such problems, I also think it's down to my opponents being experienced and figuring the ogres out pretty fast.

Nukem
09-06-2005, 20:30
Hey I got a question.. which I SHOULD know but dont.

Maneaters can take what weapons they wish or.... can one maneater only have 1 item from the list, its just that you can have one with a brace of handguns and the other with a cathayan longsword.... So what I'm asking is can I give two maneaters both a brace of handguns and cathayan longswords?

Azroth
09-06-2005, 20:44
Sorry, only one weapon per Maneater. So you could have one Maneater with a Cathayan Longsword and another one with a Brace of Handguns, but not one with both.

Nukem
09-06-2005, 20:58
Yeah thats what I thought... >< Lame Hmmm Alright then Ill revise my list then :)

Nukem
09-06-2005, 21:17
Alright I'm pretty sure I'd find more advice in this thread then the army list thread as no one finds it nesscary to reply to my lists. This is for the lustria campaign and I need some advice on the units.

*Note that the whole board is going to be a forest except for those few clearings*

Bruiser --- 189
Cathayan Longsword
Brace of Handguns
Heavy Armor
Wyrdstone Necklace
Gnoblar Thiefstone

Butcher --- 180
Halfling Cookbook
Bangstick

3 Ironguts --- 169
Standard Bearer
Lookout-Gnoblar

6 Bulls --- 235
Standard Bearer
Lookout-Gnoblar

2 Leadbelchers --- 110

3 Yhetees --- 195

2 Maneaters --- 172
Cathayan Longswords

1250

Negafex
10-06-2005, 02:35
i would drop the leadbelchers and get more yhetees or ironguts cause that many isnt gunna do much

Nukem
10-06-2005, 05:52
Id only be able to afford one more yhetee if I did that as they are 65 points each ><

I guess I could take some more ironguts. I like the yhetee's in heavily terrained areas as they ignore terrain :)

Ill post a updated list in the armylist forym and see if anyone responds ><

Badgobbla
10-06-2005, 06:25
@ Nukem: I think that's a pretty decent list you put together there. But I would try to take at least one unit of Gnoblars (20=40 pts), who are cheap and good to act as cannonfodder.

How many points do you still get to spend on that campaign?

Nukem
10-06-2005, 07:10
It's going to be set up like a boarder princes campaign... as I collect land, and specific places I will be able to spend more points on my army. Its going to be like if I own this shrine on the map uncontested I will be able to take a extra special unit free of charge. Like lets say I own a black-powder factory I might be able to take a extra unit of leadbelchers. Some will allow you field a extra character/rare unit. Ummm your character can take the normal amount of magic items + a certain amount. Most of it can be found in the Warhammer Rule book, but with some changes to help fit the feel of lustria.

I didn't want to go heavy shooting.. if you can call it that with a orge army. I have a few guns just for those clearings in the forest.

I'm thinking about droping the leadbelchers and putting in a few more ironguts.

BUT not to spam up this thread, I'm going to repost this list in the armylist section and respond there.

Thanks

Avian
10-06-2005, 08:52
I know for sure that I wouldnt have any problems at all dealing with units of standard bulls, they're just not that threatening, and none of my gaming group have problems dealing with units of bulls, against knights they cant get through the armour, even with a -2 save, empire knights have a 3+ save against it, and the WS3 of standard bulls means they get hit. a LOT, if you've not got an ironfist, they will die in droves!
On the whole I think my gaming group are pretty much as decent as anyone else's. :)

It seems you have problems when facing knights. Is that when they are charging you or when you are charging them?

kyussinchains
10-06-2005, 15:38
It seems you have problems when facing knights. Is that when they are charging you or when you are charging them?

it's not just the knights to be honest, any relatively tough enemy is hard for bulls, tomb guard, big units of high elf spearmen, greatswords and of course knights.

if the ogres charge against a unit of knights (which isnt that often) half your attacks will hit (say in a unit of 4 ogres) which means you get 6 hits, 2/3 of those will wound, meaning you get 4 wounds, and 2/3 of those will be saved (assuming a 3+ save) meaning you get 1-2 wounds through (we're talking averages here) in return the 6 knights get 4 hits, and 2 wounds, their horses will probably do another wound. Assuming you both have standards, the combat is a draw, possibly won by the knights. on charge, you really dont stand a chance, the odds are stacked in the knights favour

I know I'm generalising here, but I really dont see how big units of bulls are worth using at all

Avian
11-06-2005, 15:18
Use bigger units to get Outnumbering and more powerful Bull charge, would be my advice.

A charging unit of 6 Bulls (4 wide) against 6 Inner Circle Knights should on average win by about 1 and then autobreak the knights due to Fear.

My tactic is basically a decent US (18+) and a fighty character in the unit. It tends to work.

Lordmonkey
11-06-2005, 16:13
or buff them with the strength spell. str 5, combined with 17 attacks (frontage 4, champion, ironfists) will spell T3H P4IN for most units, even elites.

kyussinchains
11-06-2005, 18:09
or buff them with the strength spell. str 5, combined with 17 attacks (frontage 4, champion, ironfists) will spell T3H P4IN for most units, even elites.

that's true, but you really shouldnt base a strategy around a spell, ogre spells are never THAT hard to dispel, it's better to rely on the S6 ironguts, hell pump them up with the strength spell and make them chariot smashers, as well as giving them an extra -1 save modifier

the thing is, I dont see why you would use bulls instead of ironguts, a unit of 6 ironguts costs the same as a unit of 8 bulls with clubs, they have better leadership, better armour and better weapons, they do much better against knights and other tough troops.

after getting big units of bulls absolutely battered by knights and even a unit of elf spearmen, I really can't see the point in them, if you tool bulls up, they only cost 3 points less than an irongut!

strv
11-06-2005, 20:49
I'm building a ogre warband and want's some help,so:
I currently own 5 bulls,10 gnoblars(can boost them to 24 if a want to)
and i have ordered a box of leadbelchers of witch i'm going to use 1 as belcher
with the other 3 as ironguts.
I also have a standard bearer that can be used with the ironguts or the bulls.
I am think of promoting the lone leadbelcher to thunderfist,so he can stand charges from knights with first stand and shoot then giving 4 S4 armor percing attacks.
Now i have run out of ideas,and I ask you, any thoughts or ideas?

sorry for bad spelling/gramar,and thank you in beforehand
Strv

Lordmonkey
12-06-2005, 00:48
after getting big units of bulls absolutely battered by knights and even a unit of elf spearmen, I really can't see the point in them, if you tool bulls up, they only cost 3 points less than an irongut!

This is true... the higher strength does tend to outweigh the extra attack that bulls get. And they have ld8, iirc?

Hmmm... army of ironguts...

Avian
12-06-2005, 19:01
the thing is, I dont see why you would use bulls instead of ironguts, a unit of 6 ironguts costs the same as a unit of 8 bulls with clubs, they have better leadership, better armour and better weapons, they do much better against knights and other tough troops.
But Bulls are better against horde troops, so if you are facing them they are better than Ironguts.
And with the equipment you need a Bull costs 39 pts (I don't know how you can get them to cost 45... :confused: ), nine points less than an Irongut. And if your General is nearby their Leadership is irrelevant, because they're using his anyway.

And more Bulls lets you take more very useful Gnobbos (considering how much you like Bulls I have a feeling you don't like Gnobbos either :p).

Badgobbla
13-06-2005, 06:27
I'm building a ogre warband and want's some help,so:
I currently own 5 bulls,10 gnoblars(can boost them to 24 if I want to)
and i have ordered a box of leadbelchers of which i'm going to use 1 as belcher
with the other 3 as ironguts.
I also have a standard bearer that can be used with the ironguts or the bulls.
I am think of promoting the lone leadbelcher to thunderfist,so he can stand charges from knights with first stand and shoot then giving 4 S4 armor piercing attacks.


I didn't think it was possible to put Gnoblars in units of 10? I thought they came in units of 20+ at least, but I have to check my codex for that.

I'd definately split the bulls in two units, just so you can't get bogged down in close combat with all your troops. Otherwise it looks like an OK-warband (pun intended).

Nukem
13-06-2005, 06:47
Yes your correct. They need to be in units of 20+ And what the hell would 10 do anyway >< lol They would throw shiny stuff lol

Badgobbla
13-06-2005, 10:08
Watch out for them though: my gnoblars once killed 1,5 Kroxigors because of that shiny cutlery they're throwing!

Nukem
13-06-2005, 16:24
My gnoblars have died.. ummm died and oh yeah died >< lol

kyussinchains
13-06-2005, 20:40
But Bulls are better against horde troops, so if you are facing them they are better than Ironguts.
And with the equipment you need a Bull costs 39 pts (I don't know how you can get them to cost 45... :confused: ), nine points less than an Irongut. And if your General is nearby their Leadership is irrelevant, because they're using his anyway.

And more Bulls lets you take more very useful Gnobbos (considering how much you like Bulls I have a feeling you don't like Gnobbos either :p).


yup, gnoblars are also a waste of points! :p I would rather have units of gnoblars than bulls however.

I made a mistake, I meant 5 points less than an irongut, with light armour and an ironfist, a bull costs 43 points compared to 48 for an irongut with a better weapon and better armour, if you want the protection from the ironfist, you're weaker than an irongut offensively in every department, and for a measly +1 save

I would say that bulls might work better against horde armies such as skaven and goblins, but the extra attack is largely offset by the fact that you get less wounds and more enemy saves.

4 bulls with ironfists against a unit of skaven with light armour and shields would get on average, 8 hits, 6 wounds, 2 of which would be saved, potentially more, potentially less

4 ironguts would get 6 hits and 5 wounds, the enemy would get no saves.. I fail to see how the bulls with the extra hand weapons would perform any better?? the ironguts cost 20 points more, but those 20 points guarantee all but the best armoured enemy troops wont get a save.

I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm sure you've done great with bulls, I'm just saying that from my experiences, bulls aren't much good, yeah the LD isnt much of an issue, but what if the tyrant gets killed by a cannonball or a hard enemy character? the ironguts dont rely on him to be tough

Although the ironguts didnt do much better than the bulls in the above example, they are more consistent, the great weapons remove the armour variable in most cases, and they wound almost everything on a 2+

I'm sticking to my guns here...

Ironguts all the way!!

Nukem
13-06-2005, 21:01
That 4+ save has saved my ass hundreds of times. I use ironfists on bulls to deny the enemy wounds. I usually use 2 units of 8 bulls each. So hopefully I will outnumber cause a few wounds, have 1 or 2 ranks and a standard. I usually place a Bruiser in the unit as well just for a extra wound or two. Not to mention the bull charge. Against things that would have a hard time wounding the bulls like empire swordsmen/elf spearmen I would use the orge club just to negate their save or cause it to become a 6+. Bulls have and will in the future pull their weight, but you need to use them correctly, and using small units of them will not generate good results. You need to have at leasy 6 in a high point game.

And of course ironguts are nice :) I won't argue with that hehe

Nukem

kyussinchains
14-06-2005, 00:03
just out of curiosity, you arent getting the extra -1 save for using an ogre club when you use an ironfist in either attack or defence are you? because you only get the -1 save modifier when the club is used on its own, at least that's what I understand the rules to be

a 4+ armour save is nothing special, against anything with any decent strength it has a negligable effect, it's better to use trollguts on them and give em regeneration

big units of bulls are a big waste of points, what I'm saying here is that instead of a big unit of bulls, it's much better all round to use a unit of ironguts

Nukem
14-06-2005, 03:03
Big bull units are a waste of points huh... rofl Yeah I don't think so.

No you can't use a ironfist along with a club. I look down on people who field the bear minimum number of bulls you need, which would be 3 with no upgrades... that is a wuss army. I want an army that will challenge my tactics, not just a stright forward... I'm going to smash you into the ground... ><

Just my thoughts. Go Bulls! Go Ironguts! Go OK!

Nukem

kyussinchains
14-06-2005, 08:56
ok, big units of bulls are not a waste of points, what I'm trying to say here is that they're not as versatile, against low toughness, no armour enemy troops, they have a slight edge (and it is slight) but against anything with toughness 4 and/or good armour, they struggle mightily.

I'm not making it up, I've charged big units of bulls into units of empire knights and been beaten off quite comprehensively, against elf spearmen they suffer badly too, my mate puts his spearmen in ranks of 9, so he gets 27 attacks back against the bulls, he's bound to cause some wounds, and the armour on the bulls wont protect against much of it.

I'd always take ironguts because they do better against stuff like knights, black orcs, tomb guard etc. They still give most swarm type units a mighty whacking, but they can deal with tough units, which bulls simply can't :p

Badgobbla
14-06-2005, 11:29
I sometimes use one unit of Bulls (3 with no upgrades) in a flanking role and I must say this works quite good. In my centre I always use either a big unit of Ironguts or a big unit of Bulls, with that flanking unit of bulls and a flanking unit of Yhetees or Gnoblars.

But then again I haven't played that many battles against units which are rock hard (knights etc). There was one battle vs dwarfs where I charged his unit of 20 Iron Breakers with my Bruiser in the front and a unit of bulls in the flank and I just managed to break them.

On the other hand people are very scared of those Iron Guts: they tend to manoeuvre around them all the time.

strv
14-06-2005, 11:40
I'm building a ogre warband <-


Warband,have i mest up the rules wit hborder patrol?Or are they now 5+,I also need a unit of inf over 10 models.

Avian
14-06-2005, 12:11
Firstly:
Read what I'm saying - additional hand weapons are what you generally want! It doesn't matter if a Bull with a lot of stuff you aren't going to use costs 5 pts less than an Irongut. A Bull with the stuff you are going to use costs 9 pts less.


ok, big units of bulls are not a waste of points, what I'm trying to say here is that they're not as versatile, against low toughness, no armour enemy troops, they have a slight edge (and it is slight) but against anything with toughness 4 and/or good armour, they struggle mightily.
My Wolf Riders couldn't take out knights on a frontal charge either, but that doesn't make them useless.


I'm not making it up, I've charged big units of bulls into units of empire knights and been beaten off quite comprehensively, against elf spearmen they suffer badly too, my mate puts his spearmen in ranks of 9, so he gets 27 attacks back against the bulls, he's bound to cause some wounds, and the armour on the bulls wont protect against much of it.
Are you kidding me? A Bulls unit 6 wide will absolutely murder that High Elf unit. And probably cost less...


I'd always take ironguts because they do better against stuff like knights, black orcs, tomb guard etc. They still give most swarm type units a mighty whacking, but they can deal with tough units, which bulls simply can't :p
Then you let the Ironguts deal with the tough stuff and the Bulls with the less tough stuff. I was throwing out Plague Monks left, right and centre with my Bulls yesterday.

enyoss
14-06-2005, 13:42
my first post in five years of portent watching!

the unit of six bulls may have cost less but murder the unit it did not... trust me ;) . maybe the bulls will do more damage when they charge but rank bonus, outnumbering and standard mean the combat will be a close draw. next turn, striking last, they stand no chance. add a prince with the armour of the gods and the balde of darting steel and you may as well only have five bulls at the start anyway. ok, it is true that against this leviation unit of spearmen ironguts wouldn't be much better but the bulls are far easier to neutralize with cavalry long before they get there. i'm with kyussinchains on this one... bulls just don't worry me at all :p!

cheers, enyoss

Avian
14-06-2005, 14:01
If we are talking about including characters then the ogres get one as well. Fair's fair and your Prince is probably roadkill. :p

The thing is that a decent ogre bull unit should win the combat and have outnumbering. If you are lined up 9 wide you don't get much of a rank bonus and the bulls have a standard as well. Against a unit of 27 spearmen the Bulls consistently win if they get the charge, Bull charge or not.

I can't say this too often: Make sure you outnumber the opponent!
The majority of units you face (including said spearmen) are not Immune to Fear and will run like dogs.

enyoss
14-06-2005, 14:31
sorry if this is a repeat but i'm not sure if my last post worked (i'm pretty new to this stuff!)

outnumbering may be a problem for smaller units which is why i use my spearmen in 5 ranks of 9 to give US 45! i'll agree with you... that prince can be pasted pretty easily! to stop this i move him so he won't be in direct contact with those characters when they charge in. even without the prince, elves have such good movement that they can close the distance to prevent a bull charge. HE also have access to plenty of anti-fear stuff so it's a bit risky to count on that.

Avian, what kind of units do you take in a 2000pt army then? i've only played against one OK player and am interested to see how you would play them (although i think i know what your thoughts are on bulls already :) )

cheers, enyoss

Avian
14-06-2005, 14:40
outnumbering may be a problem for smaller units which is why i use my spearmen in 5 ranks of 9 to give US 45!
45 Spearmen AND a pretty tooled up Prince??? :wtf:
That's an 800 pt unit, you can't compare that to 200-odd pts of Bulls.


My 1750 pt list yesterday was as follows:
-Bruiser with GW, HA, Mawseeker, Jade lion, 2 Swordgnobbos
-Butcher with Bangstick*
-5 Bulls with AHW, FC (+ General)
-7 Bulls with IF, LA, FC (+ Butcher)
-4 Ironguts, FC
-30 Gnobbos
-30 Gnobbos
-8 Trappers, Champ
-3 Yhetees, Champ
-Scrappy

It was limited by campaign restrictions, though. At 2k I'd probably add a Butcher and a Gorger and reorganize the list a bit (drop some champs for another Irongut, for example).


*some day I'll even remember to use it :D

Nukem
14-06-2005, 18:32
Not a bad list, but why use champions? 20 points a pop >< you can afford more models if you drop those. Well I use champions in some of my units so I shouldn't talk to you about yours rofl. I usually run 2 Units of bulls, sometimes 3 and they usually run 6+. And they preform very well. Yes they have characters in them, but anyone I know will add a character to a pretty solid unit as it is. And I usually run 1-2 units of ironguts. They are usually 4-6 strong.

I'm not downgrading ironguts... because well you really cant lol, but bulls have their place and I have seen them munch empire/chaos/elf cav. Yes I lost a few... but losing a 35 point orge and taking out 1-2 chosen chaos knights... Ill take that trade any day

Nukem

kyussinchains
14-06-2005, 22:46
I probably should mention that enyoss is the guy whose elves have massacred my ogres on multiple occasions...

I concede about the bulls, yes they can handle weaker units, but if you're only giving them standard ogre clubs? my god they get massacred, even S3 attacks dont get saved, and against swarm type units that's suicide.

I know bulls can take on the weaker units and ironguts can take on the tough stuff, but what if your ironguts arent tough enough? what if they run and get caught by that big unit of charging inner circle knights? your bulls cannot stand up to that, unless you get lucky, and manage a couple of flank charges and a whole handful of impact hits!

The point I am making is to use ironguts instead of bulls, if your 'main' unit of ironguts folds (which they can and will do) you have more to take up the slack, bulls with ogre clubs may do well against cavalry, but the fact that they have no armour means they die in droves, the knights hit on 3+ and wound on 4+, same percentage as the ogres (4+ followed by 3+) the knights however have a 3+ save, wheras the ogres dont.

I'm saying that there is no need to use anything other than 3-5 bulls, and I wouldnt risk using them out as a main unit. Ironguts cost more, but they are SO much better, those extra points are worth it. use ironguts as an alternative to bulls is my point. why take bulls when you can take ironguts??

and dont spring the gnoblar argument on me! :p

I lost a unit of 7 bulls, containing my tyrant, against enyoss's large spearmen unit, the bulls were over 600 points, so it's a fair-ish fight. Against that many pointy sticks.... needless to say I lost... BAD

In a subsequent game, a similarly sized unit of ironguts with the tyrant, made short work of the spearmen, and munched through a bunch of silverhelms too (that was my only draw in around 2 dozen games)

Not only have they reduced the ogre's survivability in this edition of warhammer, they've also decreased the offensive power of the bull.

I'm pretty sure we're gonna go round and round on this one, how about we agree to disagree?

anyway I think I've made a list which will do pretty well against most armies, I just need to try it out....

Nukem
15-06-2005, 05:17
I can agree to that, I know bulls have their place, and my army is based around the fluff of the orge's. Winning isn't THAT important. Having a enjoyable game is the thing I'm shooting for. I have lost many games, but I had a ball playing in them. Gnoblars are just funny, and the trappers... rofl they are just great.

Badgobbla
15-06-2005, 06:56
outnumbering can be a problem for smaller units which is why i use my spearmen in 5 ranks of 9 to give US 45!

OMG, so you made a unit that's just good against Ogres? I wonder how well you fare against other tough and hard-hitting units (chosen knights, inner circle knights) with a good save, or do you use a different army list against each army?

I used to make my armies like that too: looking how the army of your opponent works and then making units who can match them step-for-step. But this isn't fun, no? Now I make an army that can take on all comers, agreed: this is very difficult, but quite a challenge!


and dont spring the gnoblar argument on me! :p


I gather you've had some bad experiences with gnoblars? I always use 2 big units (25+) of gnoblars just for the fun of it: either they get the attention of your oppponent, in which case they die and that's just what they're there for! Or they can roam around uninterfered and they can claim table quarters or balance a certain close combat in your favor with a well-timed flank attack.

So, all in all, gnoblars are pretty good if used correctly and if you're not afraid to lose them. They cost next to nothing and can be taken in droves, which is always good.

Nukem
15-06-2005, 07:04
Mmmmm see this... he knows what he is talking about... GOOD MAN!!

librerian_samae
15-06-2005, 11:38
Just to ask somthing,
what do people think makes the best all round tyrannt for tournement play?

I was looking at various combos and this is what i came up with:

Tyrannt-
heavy armour, cathyan longsword, luck gnoblar, spangleshard, jade lion, bull gut and maw seeker (plus a brace of handguns if you really feel like it...)

I feel this gives a very good str with the added impact hit bonuses, can cleave through most armour with the sword as well as increasing your chances to hit.
His 4 + armour save is pretty good too, as well as the 5+ ward and the armour reroll comind with the extra toughness should make him surviveble.
The jade lion is really a neceity though with the risk of suddenly getting stupid.

kyussinchains
15-06-2005, 13:34
I'd take the thundermace (unless your tournament rules have a 50 point maximum on magic items) along with the jade griffon and mawseeker, just rely on his toughness 6 and 5 wounds to keep him alive long enough to pound the hell out of anything with the thundermace.

I also tried using the bullgut, an ironfist, heavy armour, wyrdstone necklace, jade lion and mawseeker (I think, I dont have my book handy for points)

if you use the ironfist as a sheild, you get a 2+ armour save, toughness 6, a 5+ ward and 5 wounds. That tyrant is going to be tough to take down! unfortunately, he's not the damage dealing beastie he can be, he's more to soak up punishment and hopefully spare your ironguts/maneaters a little bit.

kyussinchains
15-06-2005, 13:39
OMG, so you made a unit that's just good against Ogres? I wonder how well you fare against other tough and hard-hitting units (chosen knights, inner circle knights) with a good save, or do you use a different army list against each army?

Trust me, those spearmen are more than capable of taking on anything you can throw at them, the only unit I consistently beat it with is my chosen slaanesh knights carrying the rapturous standard! it's great against chaos warriors, skeletons and tomb guard... greatswords and inner circle knights... you name it!

I hate those spearmen almost as much as I hate his great eagles *remembers watching 30 chosen chaos warriors of khorne pursuing an eagle across the table sideways after getting charged in the flank*

Badgobbla
15-06-2005, 14:12
*remembers watching 30 chosen chaos warriors of khorne pursuing an eagle across the table sideways after getting charged in the flank*

30 chosen warriors of Khorne???? :cries:

Nukem
15-06-2005, 14:23
omg yeah.. +1 on that.. 30 of them... lucky you aren't playing againat empire, that will attract so much shooting lol.

I like how you set that Tyrant up. I think I might need to steal your idea.. hehe

Avian
15-06-2005, 16:40
Not a bad list, but why use champions?
Lack of anything else useful to spend the points on, really. I'm still building up my army and I don't have all the models I want.
Besides that, champs are good for soaking up a few wounds so that rank and file models don't die.




what if they run and get caught by that big unit of charging inner circle knights? your bulls cannot stand up to that
Don't get charged by knights. Just put your Gnobbos...


and dont spring the gnoblar argument on me! :p
...uh, if you don't want to do the smart thing then I guess you die...



I lost a unit of 7 bulls, containing my tyrant, against enyoss's large spearmen unit, the bulls were over 600 points, so it's a fair-ish fight. Against that many pointy sticks.... needless to say I lost... BAD
???
I'd leave that 800 pt unit alone, if I were you. Make sure you can flank him if he tries anything fancy with it (you can do this with a unit costing a quarter of what the HE unit costs) and concentrate on killing the rest of his army.

Don't go for the trick of building an even bigger and deadlier Deathstar. :p

kyussinchains
15-06-2005, 21:41
see, if you put a screen of gnobbos against charging knights, the gnoblars get mown down and flee, the knights then pursue right into the ogres, bagging themselves 2 units for the price of one!

the only way to screen reliably is to use a minimum of 3 maneaters and hope that one survives and passes his break test!

kyussinchains
15-06-2005, 21:44
omg yeah.. +1 on that.. 30 of them... lucky you aren't playing againat empire, that will attract so much shooting lol.

I like how you set that Tyrant up. I think I might need to steal your idea.. hehe

this was a big game, so 30 chosen khorne warriors wasnt my main unit (that was 12 chosen slaanesh knights) if they get shot up, fair enough, their frenzy protects them from panic, their toughness and armour means they really soak it up, and what shoots at them, isnt shooting at my knights, daemons or dragon. If they dont get shot, then they mince everything in front of them in short order! it's win-win... unless a stupid eagle flank charges them, then flees, they have to pursue, sideways across the table!

not one of my better games that....

Edit: hope the tyrant works out for you.. he's won me many a combat

Badgobbla
16-06-2005, 06:58
Don't go for the trick of building an even bigger and deadlier Deathstar. :p

It seems to be too late! :cool:

Nukem
16-06-2005, 07:31
My deathstar is in my 5000 pt chaos list of doom... but I wont get into that rofl.

Ok reading off my new 1250orge list I'm going to need some advice on beating chaos in the jungles of lustria. Remember armor in lustria is not good so maybe they wont go heavy on units... but its chaos.. I would do it despite the lustria rules. Any advice? Thanks

Nukem

Avian
16-06-2005, 18:39
see, if you put a screen of gnobbos against charging knights, the gnoblars get mown down and flee, the knights then pursue right into the ogres, bagging themselves 2 units for the price of one!
Angle the frontage, silly! It's not that hard to make sure you'll get a flank charge on the knights if they charge the gnobbos.

I can understand that you lose a lot if you ogres turn their backs to the enemy, bend over, pull their pants down and yell: "Insert lances here!"
You don't have to try to lose, you know. :p

kyussinchains
16-06-2005, 19:14
Angle the frontage, silly! It's not that hard to make sure you'll get a flank charge on the knights if they charge the gnobbos.

I can understand that you lose a lot if you ogres turn their backs to the enemy, bend over, pull their pants down and yell: "Insert lances here!"
You don't have to try to lose, you know. :p


well obviously ;p

I dont get which frontage I'm meant to be angling? if the gnoblars get charged, they will act as a slight speedbump for the knights, there is no way the gnoblars will hold them up long enough for the ogres to get a flank charge.

Unless you're arranging the ogres so the knights run past them?

_____
\
\
\

kinda like above, where the line is the gnoblars and the slashes are the ogres?

Avian
16-06-2005, 19:35
You place the gnobbos a decent distance in front of the ogres and angle their (ie. the gnobbos') frontage so that any unit that charges them (again: the gnobbos) and pursues gets charged in the flank by the ogres in return.

If possible it's also good if you have a unit that can flank them even if they don't pursue, but at least make sure you can charge them in the front. Ogres have good Move, so it should work well.

If you have problems grasping this tactic I can understand that you only want the most elite units in your army.

Nukem
16-06-2005, 21:24
And that to me is UNfluffy. I like fluffy army's, well except my khorne army with a mage in it :p. Since ironguts are prized guys to me it seems there will be less of them even if they are core troops in the book.

fubukii
16-06-2005, 21:24
ironguts are nasty

Avian
17-06-2005, 12:20
And that to me is UNfluffy.
What is? :confused:

enyoss
17-06-2005, 13:05
I have found that screening units of gnobbos can cause more problems for an ogre player then they can sometimes solve. If I thought that by charging the gnobbos I would be leaving my knight's flanks open to counter charges I just wouldn't do it. The ogres (whatever unit it may be) can't charge through the gnobbos as they don't have los. Even if they do have los they can only do so by sending the gnobbos to their doom as well to give them enough room to charge. This reduces the number of ogres in contact (never a good thing!) and ensures plenty of dead gnobbos for combat result which leaves my knights reasonably safe staying where they are. So, in essence, one unit of knights can tie up several otherwise powerful ogre units while they get softened up by any artillery/missile fire in the meantime. It seems like the trick is to put other pressures on this unit so it has to either charge or get charged from elsewhere but then the ogre player risks committing too much of his force to trap just one unit. I know this isn't always what happens but it is something to be wary of :)

cheers,

enyoss

kyussinchains
17-06-2005, 17:37
I agree with enyoss, the gnoblars can basically be avoided, many armies (not chaos or vampire counts) can afford to sit on their deployment line and wait for the enemy to come to them, if I move the gnoblars forward in a 'please charge me' effort, they're just not enough of a threat. It might work with units of 3-4 bulls however... but then you're spending 140 points for a decoy unit, which CAN panic the rest of your army.

if the gnoblars get charged, it will be by a weak unit, dark riders, pistoliers and most other light cavalry can take gnoblars down with no problems. If the gnoblars break and run, this leaves the cavalry unit's flanks open, so you charge with your ogres, break the cavalry and regardless of whether you pursue or not, you're left right out in front of the opponent's tough stuff.

In the case where I park a unit of gnoblars in front of the ogres, the enemy can ignore the gnoblars, and just shoot up the ogres as they advance, hindered by the gnoblars being in the way.

Avian
18-06-2005, 17:09
If I thought that by charging the gnobbos I would be leaving my knight's flanks open to counter charges I just wouldn't do it.
In my most recent game against the Vampire Counts my opponent had a unit of Black Knights with attendant Thrall sitting around doing nothing much the entire game because there was a Wolf Rider unit (costing a tiny fraction of what the knights did) blocking their path, angled so that a charge would do the knights nothing good.
Meanwhile the rest of my army beat up the rest of his. Guess who won! :D

Freak Ona Leash
18-06-2005, 22:23
Hmm, has anyone tried using Ogre Bull Rhinoxen Riders yet? They can be used as DoW too and hit like a ton of briks. Though, they are a bit of a points sink. They do make a good "Shhot Me" sign as well. Everything in your enemy's army is going to be aimed at these guys and with their 5 wounds, 6 toughness and 4+ save, 3+ with Heavy Armour, they can take it. Oh and with US of six and terror, a full unit of these babys can auto-break most enemy units if they are supported by a unit of gnobbos.

Avian
18-06-2005, 22:28
I have converted one, but not tried it out yet. It's quite reasonable compared to things such as the Slavegiant and it can do a lot of damage. Their Ld leaves a lot to be desired, though.

Lordmonkey
18-06-2005, 23:38
Hmm, has anyone tried using Ogre Bull Rhinoxen Riders yet? They can be used as DoW too and hit like a ton of briks. Though, they are a bit of a points sink. They do make a good "Shhot Me" sign as well. Everything in your enemy's army is going to be aimed at these guys and with their 5 wounds, 6 toughness and 4+ save, 3+ with Heavy Armour, they can take it. Oh and with US of six and terror, a full unit of these babys can auto-break most enemy units if they are supported by a unit of gnobbos.

I'm sorry but... what? Monkey is yet to PH34R the power of these ogres!? When did they introduce Rhinox riders?

Avian
19-06-2005, 00:12
Forgeworld made some (expensive) models and put up some rules for them. They are a bit odd, but okay.

Nukem
04-07-2005, 05:41
Where can you get the rules for them? I'd like to see if they are worth taking. Oh and I bet you can convert some quite easily :p

Naghaz
05-07-2005, 20:06
The test rules are available on Forgeworld Downloads section, check Warhammer Monsters.

They are extremely good on paper and a squad of them could be the best heavy cavalry in the game which would go a long way towards making Ogre Kingdom armies more dangerous and possibly even a tournament army for some.

I'd really love to hear feedback from players on them, specificaly those who use these units or proxy them in a game or two. Could be just what the army needs to buff up a bit.

Avian
05-07-2005, 20:11
I have used mine in a battle against the Dwarfs. It did okay, though (as suspected) slayers are not a very good opponent for them (immune to terror and T5 is no bonus).

Nukem
05-07-2005, 20:15
Hmmm Yea lol thats a Trial by Fire there against slayers.. ROFL

Ill go check our their stats now and maybe use them this weekend to see how good they do.

Naghaz
05-07-2005, 20:42
I have used mine in a battle against the Dwarfs. It did okay, though (as suspected) slayers are not a very good opponent for them (immune to terror and T5 is no bonus).


I wish I had a ready opponent to do some testing on this. I'm on the cuff right now between a Wood Elf Army themed around the hunt, or an Ogre Kingdoms army with a sort of 7 Samurai feel (as opposed to cannabalisitc brutes). I have a fierce competetive bone in me so taking armies that are hard to master isnt a problem, so long as they actually can compete once mastered. In it's current form I don't feel the Ogre Kingdom army meets this standard, but if the cavalry changes things, well then I may have a winner.

Nukem
06-07-2005, 03:53
How can it not be good? This guy at my gaming club knows what he is doing, and tools most armies thrown at him. I'm getting that way too. You need to realize when you have to sacrafice a unit of bulls or even ironguts to make the enemy come to you, but this is how I see it. Even if I dont win I always have a good game with the orge's and I have never been totally destroyed without just destroying his army.. but he always had one unit left to win :P

And wood schmucks...... Pfffff :P

Naghaz
06-07-2005, 13:43
How can it not be good? This guy at my gaming club knows what he is doing, and tools most armies thrown at him. I'm getting that way too. You need to realize when you have to sacrafice a unit of bulls or even ironguts to make the enemy come to you, but this is how I see it. Even if I dont win I always have a good game with the orge's and I have never been totally destroyed without just destroying his army.. but he always had one unit left to win :P

And wood schmucks...... Pfffff :P



:) I know, I know, wood elves will be flavor of the week for certain while Ogre Kingdom armies are few and far between. Trouble is I have a strong affinity for elves (even if GW does not) and have enjoyed my dark elves thoroughly.

As for my opinion on the Ogres being underpowered, I shouldn’t have said that outright as I have no real experience with them from a general's standpoint. I can say the one player in our area that uses them, a past tournament winner, gets soundly beat quite often in our seemingly over competitive marketplace. A lot of players here min/max their armies and as such chameleon Skink shooting, SAD heavy, 14 power die flying Tzeentch Dragons of doom are quite common. Because it appears that Ogres are so well balanced, players cannot exploit the list quite as heavily as other generals. Therefore when a really good Ogre player faces a really good, but mildly to heavily cheesy opponent, the Ogre player can face some trouble.

This is the point I was trying to convey, albeit inarticulately. Ultimately I like both armies equally in many ways, but would really appreciate some additional qualtiy choices for the Ogres as the Wood Elves seem to have options galore. This keeps the army fresh for me, and gives it some venerability in my cabinet. Knowing that Forgeworld has some pretty and significantly usefull force additions goes a long way towards making Ogre Kingdoms more of a draw for me.

On paper the Ogre Cav seems incredible, but as we all know things can play out quite a bit differently on the field, specifically when a general has to make tough cuts in his line up to afford them. Whenever any of you get some table time using the cavalry I'd really love to hear your opinions. Until then, I'd even enjoy some "theoryhammer" regarding them.

Avian
06-07-2005, 14:01
Because it appears that Ogres are so well balanced, players cannot exploit the list quite as heavily as other generals.
The feeling I'm getting after playing a bunch of battles with my ogres is that there are so many checks and limitations in the list (a high price on almost everything being a primary one!) that it's quite difficult to twist it into unusual shapes.

With my greenskins I could go bonkers and make a Night goblin heavy magic + lots of chariots / artillery + savage orc monstrosity, but you can't do that with the ogres.

ett_paket_kaffe
06-07-2005, 16:58
I agree with Avian. The ogre book is very limited, most armies look the same. The ogres also have a lot of problems with a lot of things, cavalry (fast and heavy), shooting and magic. If you face an army consisting mostly of rank and file infantry the ogres work excellent, but even a few units of knights or a war machine supported by missile troops can mess up a lot of your battle plan. Their vulnerability to panic doesn't help either :(

Nukem
06-07-2005, 22:25
Yea I wish they had a few more troop options. As we know the book won't get redone in quite sometime, but they might add options in WD, or in the Annuals. Could this happen?

Naghaz
06-07-2005, 22:40
Yea I wish they had a few more troop options. As we know the book won't get redone in quite sometime, but they might add options in WD, or in the Annuals. Could this happen?


Hypotheticaly? Yes

Realisticly...no.

Thats why an official ruling on the FW unit would be nice.

Negafex
07-07-2005, 23:49
i think most players would let you use fw stuff any ways unless its like a tournament or something

Naghaz
08-07-2005, 01:20
i think most players would let you use fw stuff any ways unless its like a tournament or something


Quite right! And if they don't you have to wonder why you're playing beside them. But sometimes it is nice to take an army out for a stroll down tournament lane. I've enjoyed my time at tournaments greatly and learm much from them. In this scenerio it would be nice to have an additional unit to rely upon.

Skrag
09-07-2005, 07:53
Just read through all the posts and I must say I already learned a lot from what was said. I have bought a bunch of Ogre Models while I was on holiday in Spain (they are so much cheaper there!), so now will be a good time to build myself a good solid list, for which I off course need all the input I can get! :cool:

I won't post my entire list here, cause it's not this is not the place for it, but I will post one later in the armylist forum after I have heard you out. At the moment I'm considering something like this for my 2K army:



Chars: Tyrant, Hunter, Butcher (yet have to think about their config)

Units: 2 units of 7 which will both contain a character +FC
1 unit of 4 Iron guts with the Bull Standard +FC
1 unit of 4 Leadbelchers with Bellower

and two Gorgers!

The main idea is that I really do NOT! want to include any gnoblars, except for decoration on the Ogres' bases. The reason for this is twofold: I really, really do not like the models and have just finished my All Gobbo army which numbers over 300 Gobbos... u understand what I mean? ;)

ALthough I think the Maneaters are great, I think them veru costly in a 2000 points list and I think the list' main weakness is massed shooting for which the Gorgers come in handy! I thought having two will remove much of the randomness of them showing up. Having two should guarantee having one on the second turn. The models are great too!

Let me know what you think of it.



BTW...

1. I like the Maw Seeker/ Jade Lion combo which I saw in Avian's list. Downside is that you can no longer take the Fistful of Laurels to save yourself the cost of the BSB.


2. Is the OK Army book correct in the part about the BSB, that when taking a BSB you can't choose any magical equipment even when you do not take any magical banner. Other armies have different texts here... someone who can clarify?

Negafex
11-07-2005, 18:49
dont mean to sound ignorant but what is bsb?

Nukem
13-07-2005, 01:11
bsb = Battle Standard Bearer

Alco Engineer
13-07-2005, 03:38
I was witnes sto two Ogre games last night and it was amazing the difference was between the. the first was against VC where the Ogres prettymuch rolled the VC and only lost 1 maneater and a unit of 20 Gnoblars.The Butcher certainly made a huge impact on the game as did the man eaters (1 with cathyan LS and 1 w/ Brace of hand guns) The took a charge from a unit of black knights and wiped them out only losing the hand gunner. The game went so well that the Tyrant and his body guard (6 bulls) didn't even get in a fight (and didn't need to) The butcher was on fire and took out 4 black knights and kept eating away his main unit of skeletons (which meant a lot of magic was spent trying to replenish it) all with Magic. He did quite well considering he miscast tooth cracker (+1T?) first turn and couldn't use it all game.

This was then compared to taking on a Beasts of Chaos army where first turn the scrap launcher missfired and fell apart and his butcher miscast and blew up. Really he didn't stand much of a hope and all he took out were 2 minitours and a Gor chariot.

It amazed me the comparison between the two games and the ogres behaved almost like an orc or skaven army where luck can truley go either way with the army.

Negafex
13-07-2005, 14:39
i have to admit that in my experience the ogres really can be an army of chance. depending on dice rolls the ogres can rock harder that a stone troll (pun intended), or suck worse than the most powerfull vacume. thats really the atraction in them, chance and luck. the ogres, i feel, are all about charging headlong into the enemy and taking more risks than should be legal.

Edit-"In it's current form I don't feel the Ogre Kingdom army meets this standard, but if the cavalry changes things, well then I may have a winner."-naghaz

just post your army list and maybe we can help with a couple things

Lavfluris
11-08-2005, 22:16
Thats why an official ruling on the FW unit would be nice.The next UK WD will have full rules for GW Studio's own take on the Rhinoxen Cavalry.

Unless the Studio does a Chosen of Ahriman on us, the Rhinoxen will be a legal unit.

Chuffy
12-08-2005, 08:28
Chars: Tyrant, Hunter, Butcher (yet have to think about their config)

Thats alright, although since the FAQ Hunters have been shafted (can't move and fire).


Units: 2 units of 7 which will both contain a character +FC

No no no.

How much are you paying for that extra rank? Alot. It's useless and costly. Take units of four. Also don't take a champion, they cost 20 points for an extra attack, dont bother honestly.


1 unit of 4 Iron guts with the Bull Standard +FC

Excellent choice, that unit will destroy anything it touches. Although as before don't take a champion.


1 unit of 4 Leadbelchers with Bellower

Good, but split them up into two units of two. They become alot more flexible and are able to perform their actual role (shooting up flankers and fast cav) better.

DeathlessDraich
13-08-2005, 09:11
I'm still uncertain about the Leadbelcher shooting rule. Is it possible to shoot in 2 consecutive rounds if the Leadbelchers have not moved in the second round? The 'Ogre turn' (as stated in the rules) could be interpreted as starting from the previous shooting round and ending after the next movement round? If this is the case then the addition of being in 'base contact with the enemy', in the rules, is superfluous. Any ideas?

Negafex
14-08-2005, 01:30
i beleive the ogre turn is interpreted as a whole turn (movement, charge, magic, shooting, and cc) spent not in combat reloading. if an ogre leadbelcher shot the weapon in a previous round then he would have to spend all phases of his next turn reloading. and the thing about base contact has more to do if he is charged. EX- leadbelcher shoots up a squad of dwarfs, then on the dwarf players turn the dwarves charge the ogre, which means that unless the ogre slaughters the dwarf squad on that dwarf turn then the next round could not be spent reloading as he is to occupied with close combat

Negafex
14-08-2005, 01:32
also can leadbelchers move and fire ?

Lavfluris
14-08-2005, 07:25
also can leadbelchers move and fire ?Yes they can.

They can also ignore shooting penalities.

Avian
14-08-2005, 15:36
Some shooting penalties. They ignore penalties for moving, long range and firing more than one shot. They do not, however, ignore penalties for:
- shooting at single models / skirmishers
- soft or hard cover
- shooting at chargers
- shooting at large targets (this isn't even a penalty)

Runt Nosher
14-08-2005, 18:13
Well I have had a lot of games lately against Lizzies and Dark Elves, and I tend to agree with the fact that certain dice rolls really change the game for you. Like Scrappys/Butchers blowing up (I normally use 2 dice for at least 1 spell a turn, normally 2 spells...) and bickering gnobbos against shooty armies. That's the real kicker generally for me is if my Gnoblar screen stands still for a turn. It can normally hinders my movement at least once and ties up a unit or two of ogres for a turn. This has led me to start using gnoblars just sitting on whichever flank your tyrant is within 12" and have them cover the flank for a at least a turn or two. My new armies also include a Kineater, and I use units of 4 ogres to screen 3 units of 3 Ironguts. I'm thinking of getting two units of 4 Ironguts and 1 of 3 now, they are simply that good...

Skrag
15-08-2005, 20:16
I'm currently trying to build a new armylist for tomorrow against my friend's Skaven army. Any suggestions? I think I'll try a second butcher. It's 1500 points btw. Would be nice to cause a couple of panic testst...

The one and only James
15-08-2005, 20:37
If I were you I would only you one Butcher and give him the Brahmir Statue, then cast Braingobbler on his units, thats a panic test at minus 3! Also be sure to get a Gorger to hunt his Warlock Engineers and the Warp-Lighting cannon if he brings one. I would also get some Gnoblars to screen your units from his magic and shooting. If you can afford it be sure to bring a Scraplauncher, it will work wonders on large units.

Negafex
15-08-2005, 20:55
i would then recomend bulls over ironguts as to fight skaven u may not nead as much strength but more wounds and attacks total really helps. ive also found that taking the butchers to power up your bull units is a good idea unless your opponent can dispell it easily. ive never actually faced skaven but i have watched a game and am basing my assumptions on that

Lavfluris
16-08-2005, 10:35
Some shooting penalties.Apologies, I'll pay more attention next time. :o

Skrag
17-08-2005, 06:41
If I were you I would only you one Butcher and give him the Brahmir Statue, then cast Braingobbler on his units, thats a panic test at minus 3! Also be sure to get a Gorger to hunt his Warlock Engineers and the Warp-Lighting cannon if he brings one. I would also get some Gnoblars to screen your units from his magic and shooting. If you can afford it be sure to bring a Scraplauncher, it will work wonders on large units.

The game against Skaven went great! My friend with his Skaven scored 205 VP's and my Ogres scored only 1800 VP's. Massacre!

I took one butcher as was suggested. His magic didn't come off since I rolled a 1 or a 2 three times a turn (sometimes 4 times)! Bad luck! :confused:

Overall it really worked to have multiple hitty units. I gave them all IF and HW and this really sliced through his Skaven, even though he was playing with that Bubonic Court list (in which most units have T4).

Even two large units of frenzied rats (name?) who have 16 attacks didn't do any real damage (just one wound on the butcher).

It's my first win with this list and I must say that 12" move is great!!

The one and only James
18-08-2005, 21:51
Good to see the Vile Ratmen taking a beating, way to go Skrag.

Ponyking
28-08-2005, 06:38
cool thread, keep the tips coming pleae ;)

I'm starting an ogre army right now and I'll make my way forward by trial and error, the first thing I am curious about is if Ironguts are so much better than bulls as you guys seem to think. The big argument for Bulls is of course the armoursave in combat, a wound negated is just as good as a wound caused.

That's all for now, cheers mates.

Avian
29-08-2005, 14:07
That's not neccesarily true, because an ogre can take two wounds and still fight back at full effect. Inflicting two wounds on the enemy, however, reduces their Unit Strength, making it easier to break them.

I would not go for armour saves in combat, if I were you, not with Bulls anyway.

Skrag
29-08-2005, 17:55
What is this idea of putting both your Tyrant and one of your butchers with your large unit of Iron Guts(6) when playing 3000 points?

Doesn't the butcher wastes great potential by preventing an Iron Gut from cracking heads? That's 3/4 S6 attacks less! :confused:

Or does this Butcher have the Siegebreaker? :D

Ponyking
29-08-2005, 18:07
That's not neccesarily true, because an ogre can take two wounds and still fight back at full effect. Inflicting two wounds on the enemy, however, reduces their Unit Strength, making it easier to break them.

I would not go for armour saves in combat, if I were you, not with Bulls anyway.


well, I didn't mean that you get more attacks back by staying alive, although you do. Instead I meant that one point of combat resolution your opponent is not getting is worth just as much to you as one point of combat resolution that you are getting, so in effect a wound saved by you is worth as much, in the context of determining who won the combat( and who will autobreak due to fear and unitstrength) as a wound caused.

Cheers

Avian
30-08-2005, 12:48
so in effect a wound saved by you is worth as much, in the context of determining who won the combat( and who will autobreak due to fear and unitstrength) as a wound caused.
Yeah, and my point is that a wound caused is better, because it gets you further towards that Outnumbering bonus.

That's one of the main advantages of challenging a mighty lord with a lowly champion. His CR might be the same, but there are more of your guys left standing and contributing to the static CR of the unit.

I have used my Ironfists as shields exactly once, to avoid losing a wounded ogre to an attacking unit of Saurus Warriors. That ogre who lived gave me the outnumbering bonus instead of him and let me auto-break his unit.

That's the only time in all my battles that Ironfists have been better than additional hand weapons.

Ponyking
31-08-2005, 05:45
are you telling me the units you meet are allways equal enough to you in US that casualites caused by you will get you outnumbering? Sounds weird unless you allways run your ogres in units of 8 for 24 US and your opponents are running their in units in 25, but surely this has to have been different in some battles? My point is that initial US plays more of a role in determining outnumbering than casualties does in most cases, unless you regularly cause around 10 wounds or more. And outnumbering is also only worth as much as 1 wound saved or caused.

Avian
31-08-2005, 12:00
I'm saying that boosting attacks are for ogres nearly always better than boosting armour save.

Ponyking
01-09-2005, 05:39
Yeah, I get that ^^ but I still can't really see why you value one attack over two points in armour.

Now, I just played my first game with Ogres yeasterday and tried out two units of 3 leadbelchers and 1 of two and they were simply amazing even though I got 2 missfires. Anyone else feel that they are slightly too good? And could I hear some opinions on their uses?

DARKsoulx
02-09-2005, 17:10
yesterday i played 2 games first vs brets and then empire.
762 points.

my army
bruiser.
3 iron guts
3 iron guts
3 ogre bull
3 leadbelcher
1 gorger

brets got i would say 10 knight of realm with genreal leading it.
a little less knight errents and 5 grail knights with bsb leading it.

i got my ass kicked i shot 1 grail knight with leadbelchers then he charged my 2 iron gut units and 1 leadbelchers unit. and ran them down. i then got to charge his general unit with my remaing 3 bulls hitting with 0 out of 9 attacks. so he got a massacre on me. we played like 30 mins.

next game was against empire. he had:
10 hand gunners.
1 cannon
1 hellblaster volley gun.
16 flaglants.
8 knights with +1 save and general leading it.
1 mage.

his first turn i lost 1 unit iron guts to a cannon ball.
and 1 unit leadbelchers to his bolleygun.
me down to 2 units i moved forward next turn he killed my last unit iron guts with volley gun and some magic.

my gorger got int he game and killed the cannon. i charged his knight unit with 3 bulls and my bruiser. me doing mayb 1 wound. him doing more and running me down.

i did have some bad rolls i must say but i just dont see how to beat brets when i cant afford the units to flee. also empire i have no idea how to beat. in bigger games he will get more cannons and ill have to rank up some units its gonna be a mess out of my ogres....

so far i played 6 games won 2 lost 4. won against goblins, vampire counts.
lost to HE, skaven, brets, empire...

i really feel i have a big problem with shooting..

any ideas to beat empire ?

Ponyking
02-09-2005, 20:15
I've in general found that games under 1500 points strongly favour shooty armies, so a start would be to up the points. other than that, gorgers? a hunter or bruiser with longstrider charging warmachines on turn two? gnobblar trappers could work and get a charge in on turn 2 as well.

Will have to try some things out as well before I can recommend them though ;) will let ya all know how I do.

cheers

DARKsoulx
07-09-2005, 21:24
bump^^ any comments to my post?

made_of_metal
12-09-2005, 22:02
i was wondering what poeple did for orge characters. not so much builds as how many. I have just started them and have been having trouble fitting more the 3 in a 2000 pnt force.
a tyrant seems like a must with his ld9 and i think 2 butchers look like a good idea. But i want a brusier or hunter as well, but that is at least around 200 more pnts in characters which i find hard to get in there.

Ponyking
13-09-2005, 06:56
I just tried 1 tyrant 1 butcher and 1 hunter in a game and it worked soso as my opponent was magic heavy... but I am thinking about taking a bruiser instead of the hunter or just dropping the hunter for more troops.

2 butchers? sure could come in handy, been thinking about that too, but i think that 3 characters in 2000pts is the most you should go for.

Avian
13-09-2005, 12:37
Well, I don't play 2k games, but at 2500 pts my characters have so far been Tyrant, 2x Butcher, Bruiser Battle Standard Bearer (but then I haven't started my Hunter conversion yet...)

I have also tried Bruiser / Hunter / Bruiser BSB for smaller games, since my opponents would often show up with just a dull scroll caddie. It also works.

At 2k I'd probably just stick with 3 characters: Tyrant, Butcher and then either a BSB, Hunter or a second Butcher.

made_of_metal
13-09-2005, 14:25
i am happy to see that i am on the the right track with characters.

for tactics i have been thinking that a general rush seems to be the "safest", so you don't get blasted to bits on the way there. but i think to be good they need to be a bit more careful then that.

how do your units play out over the game? find that anything just gets stuck chasing fleeing units? or just getting out charged by cav?

Ponyking
13-09-2005, 20:34
outcharget by cavalry hasn't been a problem yet for me, but that may be because the light cav has charged my bulls and the heavy cav has charged my Ironguts, hehe, Ironguts hit back hard.

Having a bit of trouble with WE though, treemen being stubborn is pain... mages being all alone avoiding charges are annoying and moving woods blocking my units is just wrong. I suppose my tenderiser armed general and Ironguts, and maybe maneaters, will do for the treemen and for the spells, 2 butchers? any advice?

made_of_metal
14-09-2005, 01:36
for one butcher i have been looking at the skullmantle. seems just to good to clear out units. too bad you can't combine it with the bangstick. that would be a panic machine.

but the bangstick and the 2d6 s2 hit could be a good bet. those elves aren't that tough.
yhetees can also run through the trees.

like the idea of taking the tenderiser to the treeman. but that trick will only work once i bet. after that he will still clear of your lord.

this is mostly theory though....

Ponyking
14-09-2005, 06:10
I'm kind of hoping on the tenderiser for any lords with annoyance of nettlings as well, one hit could hopefully kill them ;) . and it is good against treeking also. Starting to think that the tenderiser is a good allround choice as well against other armies cause you have to kill any opponent in a challenge fast because you have no defensive items to speak of and the probably do.

Avian
14-09-2005, 11:09
The thing about ogres in challenges is that unless you take something that does multiple wounds, it takes forever to kill them, thus you can be pretty sure you'll get to fight back.

And yes, the Tenderiser is a very good weapon. :)

Yhetees are also good against forest spirits, since their magic attacks negate their ward save and their high strength makes it easier to get past that high T and armour save.

Ponyking
14-09-2005, 18:21
Yhetees are also good against forest spirits, since their magic attacks negate their ward save and their high strength makes it easier to get past that high T and armour save.

And they walk through woods at normal speed ^^ too bad the models are awful... anyone found nicer anywhere else? or can they be made ok looking with painting?

made_of_metal
15-09-2005, 04:18
i was half thinking of just using green stuff to make a hairy ogre. it would be alot of work but i think it would be fun.

ya the models are bad though. not even sure it ther are worth converting.

Ponyking
15-09-2005, 06:15
sure a hairy ogre might work, hair isn't too difficult, but what about the pants? I'm not a great sculptor so make my own legs would be kind of out of the question... but I still want Yhetees in the army. They may be good enough for me to swallow my sense of fashion pride and just get the GW ones.

Avian
15-09-2005, 15:03
And they walk through woods at normal speed ^^ too bad the models are awful... anyone found nicer anywhere else? or can they be made ok looking with painting?
I'll be making mine from the plastic rat ogres, just as soon as I finish painting the gnobbos. I'll let you know how it goes.

Ponyking
16-09-2005, 06:07
cool

how about them slavegiants then? worth 175pts? I'm thinking it is but I'm also thinking that that rare slot should go to something like a gorger(or 2 if you have slots) or maybe rhinox riders. My gorgers allways seem to end up men(things?) of the match. Destroying characters and small units easily in the rear or flank of the enemy army.

made_of_metal
16-09-2005, 14:04
I would have to say no to the slave gaint. he has no stubborn, the thing that makes a gaint worth while vs big units. he would always have to go in supported and that seems hard with all the big base sizes in the army.
the other 2 rare choices on the other hand are unbreakable and stubborn, have high S and seem like great buys. Not totally sure about the rhinox riders, the low ld seems killer but they would hit like jesus with a brick in each hand.

Durham_red
18-09-2005, 10:44
I take a gorger and one Bull Rhinox cavalry for my Rare choices. The gorger is great for taking out Artilary and thretaning the rear of units, Being Unbreakable means they can tie up large units on there own. The Bull Rhinox i've found to be really useful.

I send it down one of the Flanks to threaten the enemy and just the presance of it there is enough to make your opponant worry. If they don't make sure they deal with it, when it hits it hits HARD with the added bonus of Terror. To make sure they deal with it, they may have to over commit their fire power, drawing it away from the bulk of your army.

Bergtorp
25-09-2005, 18:03
Hi. Now I have read through all this... and I still have some questions.
1, About Rhinox. Bull or not to Bull??
2, I want to play Ironskin tribe. The are just to cool. But how good is it?? Leadbleacher as core and Rhinox as special, but Gnobblars as special to.
3, A fashion question. The Ghark converstion. How many here thinks it's good?? IMHO, I think it sucks.

Ponyking
25-09-2005, 20:47
Hi. Now I have read through all this... and I still have some questions.
1, About Rhinox. Bull or not to Bull??

Well, try to both and see what you like. Myself I like the idea of a large target in the army and the terror, but I gotta limit myself to one, which is sad ;)


2, I want to play Ironskin tribe. The are just to cool. But how good is it?? Leadbleacher as core and Rhinox as special, but Gnobblars as special to.

No idea on this one, I am gonna get more experience running a regular ogre army before trying on that one.


3, A fashion question. The Ghark converstion. How many here thinks it's good?? IMHO, I think it sucks.

I don't much like it either, but I like the idea of using a juggernaught for the Iron Rhinox. I think I can remember some really cool juggers from the late 80s or early 90s, try and check them out.

Bergtorp
25-09-2005, 20:52
BUT THEY ARE TO SMALL!!! THE MODEL IS TO SMALL!!! This is one of the most powerful Tyrant there is and he has an ordinary bull sword! Come on, hte metal Tyrants sword is bigger than an Ogre. You see my point??

Ponyking
26-09-2005, 06:07
BUT THEY ARE TO SMALL!!! THE MODEL IS TO SMALL!!! This is one of the most powerful Tyrant there is and he has an ordinary bull sword! Come on, hte metal Tyrants sword is bigger than an Ogre. You see my point??


^^ hehe, sure it is small, on the other hand it is just supposed to be nothing really special about it. it's not the siegebreaker or anything mate just a handweapon sized weapon. But, it could look cooler.

Von Wibble
31-08-2006, 10:58
I am picking a 2500 pts army (facing HE)

Tyrant, gw, ha, Fist of Laurels, Gut Maw, Thiefstone (305)

Butcher, Bangstick, Dispel Scroll (180)

Butcher, Skullmantle, Dispel Scroll (175)

Butcher, 2 x TGnoblar (140)

7 x 3 Bulls (7 x 105) 3x 20 Gnoblars (3 x 20) Slavegiant (175)

10 Trappers (60) 2 x Scraplauncher (2 x 165) 4 Leadbelchers (220)

I like small blocks as combined with the Gnoblars I should be able to outthink knights. 2 blocks put together, or 1 block + scraplauncher/Slavegiant/Tyrant should be hard hitting enough where I need more power

3 butchers because I need the dispel dice, and might as well go offensive from there...

Opinions anyone?

Toppan
19-09-2006, 04:23
hi yall! im a new OK player, and i have some questions. me and my friends are starting fantasy, he is starting VC and another is probably starting empire or dark elves. there are also quite a few skaven players in my store, as well as a few chaos players. me, the emp/DE player and the VC player are all starting out together, so we'll probably play small games at first as we build our armies.

let me show you what i got so far

6x bulls (1 standard, 1 bellower) each with 1 hand weapon and a missing hand until i figure out if i want a hand weapon or a IF.

41x gnoblars including 2 groinbiters

in the mail i have about 16 iron guts and a bruiser/tyrant i think

ok now the questions
1. ironfists or extra hand weapons?

2. bellower+standard worth it?

3. how many bulls to a unit?

4. what is the irongut to bull ratio? (2 irongut units to 1 bull unit or some such)

5. how good is the scraplauncher? i think id use it just to have fun?

6. bruiser with great weapon to lead an irongut squad or bruiser with hand weapon to lead the bulls?

7. how do trappers generally "work"?

8. are yhetees worth it? i dont especially like them...and my ogres dont seem like the snowy kind.

9. what about gorgers? the random table edge thing sounds awesome...killing edge too :)

10. i really like butchers, and am going to have one in my army. but i dont know what magic things to give him, or the bruiser/tyrant for that matter. what would be best?

ok theres 10 for now. i have 1 last thing to say. i have never played fantasy outside of the demo game, but i know i like it. i am an 40k player however.

MisterHeavy
20-09-2006, 13:29
1. ironfists or extra hand weapons?

Depends on the purpose of the unit. I personally use my bulls as cheap (for ogres) flee/flank/harass units, so I run them naked. As an alternative, you could give them additional hand weapons for more attacks. From a strict efficiency perspective, Ironfists are generally not worth it, as you'll almost always be using them for the extra attack, so you might as well pay less and just get the AHW.

Also note that anything with a 4+ or better armor save negates the benefits of an additional hand weapon since you loose your extra AP when you use two hand weapons. AHW is better for killing masses of lightly armored troops, but about equal against anything with a 4+ save (very common) and actually worse against anything 3+ or better.


2. bellower+standard worth it?
IMO, bellowers are always worth it. They are relatively cheap, break ties in combat and help you rally. Standars are worth in in IG units and in any large bull units you plan on using as hammers. Don't take standars on flee/flank units, like a unit of 3 bulls.

I do not find champions to ever be worth it unless you also have a character in that unit and want to free him up from forced acceptance of challenges. otherwise, ogre champs are -seriously- overpriced.



3. how many bulls to a unit?

For bulls, I use units of 3. That keeps them manuverable and cheap, but still able to pack enough punch for soft targets. For Ironguts I use units of 4 as I'm hoping to actually win combat through kills.


4. what is the irongut to bull ratio? (2 irongut units to 1 bull unit or some such)

No fixed ratio, although you'll typically see at least as many IGs as bulls in most OK armies. The truth is IG's are a better deal than bulls. Higher str, LD8 and heavy armor are all excellent upgrades. Striking last is no big dea since your I is so low anyway.


5. how good is the scraplauncher? i think id use it just to have fun?

I'd say that 80% of the people out there see it as "just for fun" while 20% see it as a true weapon. I'm one of th 80%. Whatever you do, proxy one before you put one together if you're considering buying one. They are the single biggest pain-in-the-**** models to put together in the entire GW range.


6. bruiser with great weapon to lead an irongut squad or bruiser with hand weapon to lead the bulls?

Again, depends on how you're planning on using your bulls. Some will say that IG's are good enough without character support, and to have your bruiser lead the bulls for another hammer unit. Personally, I run my fighty characters with IG's as I want the best possible chance to win combat with my hammer units.


7. how do trappers generally "work"?

Hehe, not sure you can use "gnoblars" and "work" in the same sentance... anyway, they're skirmishing scouts, so you can use them to marchblock, hunt war machines, block line of sight, or whatever. Note their low leadership, so they need to be either near the general, or away from shooting or they'll panic and run away in one turn.


8. are yhetees worth it? i dont especially like them...and my ogres dont seem like the snowy kind.

I do not use yhetees, I find them overly expensive. I can't comment much more than that.


9. what about gorgers? the random table edge thing sounds awesome...killing edge too :)

Gorgers are good in pairs, but a single gorger is just too iffy. He may not even show up until turn 4. You can't count on him enough to really make him part of a detailed battle plan. Having two really ups the odds that you'll get at least one in a timely manner, so they become far more useful.


10. i really like butchers, and am going to have one in my army. but i dont know what magic things to give him, or the bruiser/tyrant for that matter. what would be best?

For a single butcher in anything over 1500 points, two dispel scrolls is probably the "best". Alternatively, a single dispel scroll and the "bangstick" will provide you with a bit more punch to your magic phase. The bangstick is a very popular item.

Furthermore, since butchers are automatically level 2, you might consider taking two of them. With a forced investment in the magic phase above what other armies are required to make, you might as well commit and make something powerful out of it.


ok theres 10 for now. i have 1 last thing to say. i have never played fantasy outside of the demo game, but i know i like it. i am an 40k player however.

Fantasy (as you've seen a bit of already) is completely different from 40K. As someone who plays both systems, I believe fantasy to be the better of the two. 40K is "cooler" (as far as nerd-sport goes), but the fantasy system is more engaging and rewarding IMHO.

For lots of great Ogre discussions, try the Ogre stronghold http://www.ogrestronghold.com/main/

There's a great community forum there of a lot of ogre players.


enjoy!

Kadrium
20-09-2006, 16:39
Also note that anything with a 4+ or better armor save negates the benefits of an additional hand weapon since you loose your extra AP when you use two hand weapons.

Wait, what? Can you explain that sentence? Why do you lose AP when using 2 hand wepons?


I'd say that 80% of the people out there see it as "just for fun" while 20% see it as a true weapon. I'm one of th 80%. Whatever you do, proxy one before you put one together if you're considering buying one. They are the single biggest pain-in-the-**** models to put together in the entire GW range.

I've sniped mages (skink priests are so so soft) and even characters with the killing blow on it. And people forget it acts like a chariot on the charge. I've had it side charge a unit of kroxigors, win combat, and run them down after they broke.



Gorgers are good in pairs, but a single gorger is just too iffy. He may not even show up until turn 4. You can't count on him enough to really make him part of a detailed battle plan. Having two really ups the odds that you'll get at least one in a timely manner, so they become far more useful.

The other problem with gorgers, aside from the random turn arrival, is that they cannot charge on the turn they arrive. If you're playing against a heavily shooty army, they generally just spend a turn doing an about-face and mowing your gorger down. Not to say at all that gorgers are bad, but you have to be careful who you play them against.


For a single butcher in anything over 1500 points, two dispel scrolls is probably the "best". Alternatively, a single dispel scroll and the "bangstick" will provide you with a bit more punch to your magic phase. The bangstick is a very popular item.

The bangstick is great and I highly recommend it. It can give your magic round some decent strength damage that gut magic is generally lacking, and it's good to use as dispell fodder.. bait in your opponent to blowing his dispell dice on it.

One thing you're totally forgetting is the halfling cookbook. Its essential if you plan on casting trollguts very much (which you should be planning on). I actually take no dispell scrolls in my army (2 butchers usually games just shy of 2k points). Instead I use gnoblar thiefstones. They give the butcher or any unit he's with MR2. Then add the further MR2 from trollguts, and the butcher's unit suddenly has MR4.

My army list usually includes two units of 3 bulls to which my butchers join and trollguts. Then my bruiser joins the unit of ironguts who carry the Rune Maw banner. Any of my bull units have 4 dispell dice for free from the thiefstones + trollguts MR. Any spells targeted at the unit of ironguts gets redirected to my gnoblars on a 2+. And I still have my normal pool of 4 dispell dice to work with. I've taken this combo up against my friend's Slaan and completely shut down his magic phase. Just buy some tooth gnoblars to help you get those first few trollguts off the ground, and bait dispell dice with the bangstick and annoyance spells like braingobbler, then drop the trollguts when you've bled off all your opponents dispel dice.


Furthermore, since butchers are automatically level 2, you might consider taking two of them. With a forced investment in the magic phase above what other armies are required to make, you might as well commit and make something powerful out of it. Any Ogre army above 1200-1500 points should always have 2 butchers. Much above 2k and I'd be looking for a slaughtermaster or 3rd butcher.

MisterHeavy
20-09-2006, 17:45
Wait, what? Can you explain that sentence? Why do you lose AP when using 2 hand wepons?

You don't get your ogre club special rule when you use two hand weapons. So you can either have 3 attacks with -2 to armor saves, or 4 attacks with -1 to armor saves. Against lightly armored troops, you're better off with the 2nd hand weapon. At 4+ it evens out statistically, and at 3+ or better, you're better off loosing an attack in favor of the ogre club's additional AP.



One thing you're totally forgetting is the halfling cookbook. Its essential if you plan on casting trollguts very much (which you should be planning on). I actually take no dispell scrolls in my army (2 butchers usually games just shy of 2k points). Instead I use gnoblar thiefstones. They give the butcher or any unit he's with MR2. Then add the further MR2 from trollguts, and the butcher's unit suddenly has MR4.


I like the cookbook, but I don't personally consider it essential. Thiefstones are good, but you can only protect one unit, and it doesn't help against buffing/movement/summoning type spells. If I were to take only one butcher, I'd probably go with either 2 DSs or 1 DS and the bangstick. Of course, YMMV :)



Any Ogre army above 1200-1500 points should always have 2 butchers. Much above 2k and I'd be looking for a slaughtermaster or 3rd butcher.

I agree. Gut magic can be fantastic when used properly.

Bra'tac
20-09-2006, 20:32
after a few games playing ogre kingdoms i can say that i'm still a newbie:cool:

i lost 3 games against dwarfs
won one against dark elves
and won one 10000pts 5000 ogre 5000 dwarf VS
5000 chaos 5000 vampire counts.

i made a new list according to the new rules for northern europe ''benelux''
2250 pts ''gt list''

Tyrant with Great Weapon, Heavy Armour,Spangleshard,Gutmaw 280

Butcher with, dispel scroll 155

Butcher with sword of battle 155

6x iron guts with bellower and gutlord 318

7x iron guts with bellower and gutlord 366

8x iron guts with bellower and gutlord 414

13x gnoblar trapper with snarefinger 82

4x leadbelcher with bellower 230

Giant 175

Gorger 75


as you can see i just love iron guts...
the trappers are there to annoy where ever they can
the giant is there because...he's there...euhm ''i want to convert one''
the leadbelchers are there because of ...Boom hur hur hur....''
the gorger is there to hunt some warmachines, wizards etc
2 butchers gut magic rules....when you are not killing your self with it.
and a tyrant....because ...just because

let me know what you think of this list.
C&C needed badly

Kadrium
21-09-2006, 02:05
i made a new list according to the new rules for northern europe ''benelux''
2250 pts ''gt list''

Tyrant with Great Weapon, Heavy Armour,Spangleshard,Gutmaw 280

Butcher with, dispel scroll 155

Butcher with sword of battle 155

6x iron guts with bellower and gutlord 318

7x iron guts with bellower and gutlord 366

8x iron guts with bellower and gutlord 414

13x gnoblar trapper with snarefinger 82

4x leadbelcher with bellower 230

Giant 175

Gorger 75


as you can see i just love iron guts...
the trappers are there to annoy where ever they can
the giant is there because...he's there...euhm ''i want to convert one''
the leadbelchers are there because of ...Boom hur hur hur....''
the gorger is there to hunt some warmachines, wizards etc
2 butchers gut magic rules....when you are not killing your self with it.
and a tyrant....because ...just because

let me know what you think of this list.
C&C needed badly

Well, off the top of my head it looks like your list is not exactly legal. All ogre armies require at least one unit of bulls.

I'd really consider not sinking quite so many points into those ironguts, or breaking up your bigger units into smaller ones. You're not going to outnumber often anyway, and look at all those ironguts you have cooling their heels in the back rows.

By ranking ironguts, you're spending 48 points for +1 str on a bull charge. I'd rather spend 48 points on a whole other front-line, fights all the time, irongut. Those 21 ironguts would be much more useful as 5 units of 4 or 4 units of 5.

Plus you have to drop at least a few for some bulls, just to make your army legal.

Bra'tac
21-09-2006, 08:43
indeed :angel: ...I forgot about the bull rule:confused:

Toppan
22-09-2006, 01:20
alright yall, im back
so saturday im going to pick up some ironguts and possibly my bruiser+butcher. im so happy my eyes are wellin.

anywho, firstly i want to see yalls opinion on this. my ogres are a tribe of nomads with a love for metal and all its forms, especially the shiny ones. so they leave their mountainous caverns and go off to crush, destroy, and pillage all the metal they can, picking up various junk and knicknacks which other tribes wouldnt even bother carrying around.

model wise, im giving all my units as much armor as possible. yeah yeah i know bulls arent worth it, shoosh, hear me out. everyone has heavy armor except the people who cant have it. this shows how rock hard the ogres are, and how long theyve been on the trail. in fact, i was thinking of taking the +1T just to show my tyrant/bruiser is hard as nails :)

so i need a tribe name...theyre nomads...scavengers...wear lots of armor...and love shiny metals

few more questions:
1. does everything need a musician and standard? my bulls are 3 each, so i gave them both just to help out, but my butchers are going to join them so...i ll have 4 ogres to a bull unit.

2. since my army is of nomads, im going to use two butchers...the cooks of the tribe so to say. i am giving one a bangstick and a dispel scroll, but the other butcher seems naked. i was thinking power stone and another dispel scroll. what do you think?

3. to fit my fluff, what would be "better", more heavy armored maneaters or leadbelchers? the belchers scavenge a lot for ammo...but the maneaters are nomads and wear heavy armor...

4. numbers...3 units of 4 ironguts...2 units of 3 bulls...2 units of 21 gnoblars...1 unit of 4 leadbelchers...is that too many leadbelchers or something?

lastly, what is the standard point limit to make army lists? i was thinking 1500/2000

Artemis_Quinn
22-09-2006, 06:50
so i need a tribe name...theyre nomads...scavengers...wear lots of armor...and love shiny metals

I'm thinking the pyrite tribe or something like using the actual chemical name from the periodic table for a metal..... such as: calling them indiums, or the strontium tribe........ just tossing around ideas for you.

Tyrantgianteater
26-09-2006, 08:07
Wow, some great stuff here. It took me a while to read it all but some interesting thoughts and tips.

What advise can you offer for a new player like me, i have played wargames ect including WHFB for 8+ years. But im new to ogres, i have the Battalion, another box of bulls, a giant another box of Gnoblars and some Trappers

My initial idea is to run with 3 units of 4 bulls, im not a big fan of the whole MSU tactics, a unit of 4 Iron Guts, 2 units of 2 Leadbealchers (until i decide if i want to use em), 2 units of Knoblars 24-30 in each

Thoughts, Help?

Thanks heaps keep this tactics going its great:D

Kadrium
27-09-2006, 22:02
Get at least 1 Butcher and a Bruiser. Aside from that the units you have are solid.

The one thing that I'm hoping is expanded on soon is the general lack of unit variety for Ogres. We really just need some more options. I thumb through my roommate's orcs and gobs book and just weep at the sheer ammount of different units he has to choose from. Makes it hard to specalize an army to play against a specific other army.

Tyrantgianteater
28-09-2006, 01:01
I wonder if its because they felt the ogres really didnt have a lot of difference?

There big, and hit hard. But i agree some more options would add more to them, especially if the do make the Rhinox Rules Official (Not sure if it has). Maybe make the Giant Stubborn for a few more points.

But if you look at other armies some of them can be pretty much the same, not heaps of variety in the core. Some more specials and rare would go down a treat, but that aint stopping me in building the army:cool:

Now ive only got 12 Bulls 4 Iron Guts, 24 Knoblars and a Giant to paint:rolleyes:

Can the Ogres take on people in a Tournament enviroment or are we just not that way inclinded?

zodgrim
06-10-2006, 19:01
I'm looking at building an Ogre Kingdom army in the next few months.

Has anyone played their Ogre Kingdom army with the 7th edition rules?

I remember reading the article in White Dwarf talking about how the change in ranks from 4 to 5 across would influence the Ogres. But every army list that I have read used Ogre units as small as 3 already. So in reality, the change doesn't effect the Ogres at all.

druchii
06-10-2006, 19:10
I'm looking at building an Ogre Kingdom army in the next few months.

Has anyone played their Ogre Kingdom army with the 7th edition rules?

I remember reading the article in White Dwarf talking about how the change in ranks from 4 to 5 across would influence the Ogres. But every army list that I have read used Ogre units as small as 3 already. So in reality, the change doesn't effect the Ogres at all.

I've gotten in a few games with my ogres in 7th ed. Not much has changed for the ogres, although their opponents have changed, a tad.

I've never been a fan of rank on monster(40mm) units, just seems like an entire waste of points.

I typically run units of 4, my gnoblars do the baiting and fleeing.
I like units of 4 because when you charge a ranked up infantry unit, you're pulling 12 attacks at the usual frontage, your opponent is throwing six, most likely.

Kadrium
06-10-2006, 19:46
I played my ogres under 7th for the first time last night and fully mauled my friend's Brets (won by 777 in a 1700 point game). The harsher miscast table helped me out, as one of his damsel's miscasts was pretty nasty. I know it came up last night and I can't for the life of me remember today.. but I think failed leadership tests against fear causing units now means no charge at all, even if outnumbering? Can someone confirm that? I looked it up last night and I'm drawing a total blank on it now, I don't even remember how it worked out during the fight last night. :P

If I'm remembering that right, that's a major boon for us.

Also, under 6th ed, if a model recieved enough wounds to be killed, but regenerated any wounds, they would still not be able to attack back, as wounds were regenned at the end of combat. Now, if your ogres are killed, but regen through trollguts, they are allowed to attack back.

druchii
06-10-2006, 20:11
I played my ogres under 7th for the first time last night and fully mauled my friend's Brets (won by 777 in a 1700 point game). The harsher miscast table helped me out, as one of his damsel's miscasts was pretty nasty. I know it came up last night and I can't for the life of me remember today.. but I think failed leadership tests against fear causing units now means no charge at all, even if outnumbering? Can someone confirm that? I looked it up last night and I'm drawing a total blank on it now, I don't even remember how it worked out during the fight last night. :P

If I'm remembering that right, that's a major boon for us.

Also, under 6th ed, if a model recieved enough wounds to be killed, but regenerated any wounds, they would still not be able to attack back, as wounds were regenned at the end of combat. Now, if your ogres are killed, but regen through trollguts, they are allowed to attack back.

IIRC the rulebook states that if you fail a Ld test when attempting to charage a fear causing enemy, you do indeed just sit there.

Also: in 7th ed regeneration is just a neat sort of "third" save. It isn't a ward, it isn't an armor, but a regeneration save. So since the mechanics of the regeneration are completely different now (and better, holy crap are they better!) it makes sense that saves "regenerated" allow a model to fight back.

In the previous edition, IIRC, regeneration happened at the end of the phase, after wounds had already been calculated.

d

SpoinkX12
07-10-2006, 01:08
I'm a relative newcomer to the ogres, and I got roundly panelled when I first started playing with them. I've learned a few things based on my experiences, which I'll share here.

1)Ironguts are massively superior to bog standard bulls! the great weapons make them effective all round, they have twice the save against missile fire (admittedly still pathetic at 5+) and the extra point of leadership is vital. Use bulls as flanking units, but dont rely on them to take on anything more threatening than units of basic core troops.

Run your heroes with bulls, and they are just as effective as ironguts

3)Leadbelchers are potentially devastating units, but also, they can't be relied upon, I've had a unit of 4 leadbelchers fire, get 2 misfires, kill 2 members of their own unit and score a pathetic 5 shots, only 2 of which hit, additionally, I've also had a unit of leadbelchers kill 22 elf spearmen in one volley, so it's a case of taking the rough with the smooth. They work well as deterrant units, and can be nasty against large monsters thanks to the +1 to hit, the best bet is to put them on the flank to prevent anyone sneaking around the back.

you can't get 5 shots with leadbelchers, smallest number you can get with 2 remaining without a misfire is 4 shots, and next is 6 shots...

that's what I've learned so far, maybe I'll have some of tactics proven wrong, but until then I'm sticking to them. I appreciate comments and criticisms

Cheers!

..........

zodgrim
07-10-2006, 02:47
Thanks. I want to begin playing Ogre Kingdoms because no one at the FLGS plays them and the opinion has been that they can't win. Of course, all of that is guesstimating from reading the rules since nobody plays them.:rolleyes:

But after reading other players success with the Ogres, I am determined to play them and show people that they are a winable army.

Kadrium
09-10-2006, 14:44
They're just not an easy army to play. I have absolutely crushed brets, lizardmen, dwarves, and orcs (all the armies my friends have) and been crushed in return.

There are things that you know are not going to go your way (static cr, saves, low weaponskill) so you have to work very hard on making sure you can maximize the things that do work for you - impact hits, flank to deny rank bonuses, be smart with your magic. And make sure you remember to make your opponent roll those fear checks. Fear is a little better in 7th ed now, don't forget it.

Invid
15-11-2006, 20:46
What is the Significance of the "mancatcher" Bear-trap that the dude is holding? I cant determine the significance of this piece. Is it a special item? Or just for making the models a little cooler? I have been unable to find it in teh codex as well. WTF?

Any help here?

Implex
15-11-2006, 21:15
Like most I found the Ogres difficult to play with reliability; more than most armies the dice really dictate your game. My new army is doing really well, winning 7/8 past games, and one tournament this past weekend. I was a little intoxicated when I submitted my army list, but you’ll get the drift if you take a look.

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=56517

Avian
16-11-2006, 12:06
What is the Significance of the "mancatcher" Bear-trap that the dude is holding? I cant determine the significance of this piece. Is it a special item? Or just for making the models a little cooler? I have been unable to find it in teh codex as well. WTF?
Decoration only. Count it as a hand weapon if you like.

Sorgebrand
17-11-2006, 01:34
or an Iron Fist, anyway, it's one of the coolest pieces from the set!

Invid
17-11-2006, 15:54
heh. yea I thought it looked cool, but I wanted to makes ure I was gonna use it right! Thanks!

Anodai
26-11-2006, 22:14
assuming 2000 points:

i dont like the giants cause for 175 pts you can get a bunch of ironguts that are much more efficient.
i also dont like gnoblars cause they run easy, and id rather have two ironguts than 40 guys that will run like hell when charged by 10 empire footmen. Gnoblars also cannot be used as thrown weapons, so like most models under 8 feet tall, are vastly insuperior to ogres.
for tyrants, I take the tenderiser, heavy armor, deathcheater, gut maw, and a luck gnoblar. I throw him in with a unit of ironguts and procede towards the unit with the enemy general. I challenge, then due to all the wound prevention gear and the tenderiser, i make the enemy hero mushy and my tyrant even bigger. ive found nothing can stand up to that. after the general is dead, ALWAYS CHALLENGE EVERYTHING.
finally, i usually take as little bulls as possible (one maxed squad) and everything else ironguts/yeetes/leadbelchers. and always three butchers

Invid
14-12-2006, 22:43
Does the butcher miscast on any roll of a 1 when rolling 1 Die? I am still a little confused on Gut Magic it seems. Thanks!

kyussinchains
15-12-2006, 08:24
Does the butcher miscast on any roll of a 1 when rolling 1 Die? I am still a little confused on Gut Magic it seems. Thanks!

nope, a double 1 just like everyone else, which is great because all the spells have 3+ casting costs, you can get away with only rolling 1 dice for them, this means you can usually get a bunch off in a turn, if you roll a few 5's and 6's your opponent will be forced to use 2 of his own dice to get rid of one of your spells

The Machine
26-12-2006, 22:24
There are some very good advice on this thread. One thing that haven't been discussed is the use of Dogs of war to spice things up. Im am now working on an 2000p OK army (which I have ent play tested yet) and have included two galloper guns. With the new grape shot rules I think they can wreck havoc. Protecting my cannns I have chosen 2x2 leadbelchers. This will basicly be my flanking force and keep well armourd targets like Bret's on their toes. In the center I will move up 3 small units of guts (3-4 with command!) and a medium sized unit of bulls fully tooled up. 2 butchers and a tenderiser armed tyrant wraps it up. As I said I have NO idea of how this will work. I have been playing WFB for 10 years and have never played with or against OK. "Why have you not play tested it?" you say ( I guess you don't but I can pretend) Well glad you asked, the thing is that I want to paint the whole army before I play It....It just seemed like a good idea at the time.

Well.... I'd love some feedback on the army and the DOW idea....

The Machine

Reece
12-02-2007, 06:10
I've only played a hundfull of games, but what do you guys think about attaching a Tyrant to a unit of 3 Maneaters for a hard hitting unit similar to Irontguts?

Avian
12-02-2007, 09:25
A bit pointless. Tyrants are in my experience much better attached to Bulls, who need the support of a powerful character much more than the already powerful Maneaters.

And it makes the unit a huge missile magnet.

Keller
13-02-2007, 13:48
I used to run my Tyrant with Maneaters, though I don't think I will do it very often in the future. The Maneaters are already quite powerful, and unless you are fighting Chosen Chaos or the like, you don't really need more punch to them. I generally prefer to run my Ogre Characters on their own, anymore, since a well equipped Tyrant can take on many types of units himself. For harder units, just send in multiple charges.

happy_doctor
21-10-2007, 22:11
hmmmm....it's been 8 months... time for a little threadomancy!!!

*rise, long-forgotten ogre kingdom tacticians, for you are needed!!*

So, let me be straightforward: I need some tips on gut magic. In fact, i need a whole article on ogre gut magic. :D
Here's the deal: I've been trying to compile a magic tactica encompassing all types of magic in warhammer fantasy, and results so far are encouraging. However, there have been no ogre volunteers, and my knowledge on the subject is lacking, to say the least.. So, anyone interested on writing up a piece or giving some insight, please follow the link on my signature...

Thanks in advance, sorry for disturbing!

happy_doctor

forgottenlor
22-10-2007, 14:36
Noone has said it, but gorgers are simply a wonderful buy. When they come in, they really screw up your opponent's plan. I have found the banner bearer works well in a unit of maneaters. Give him a couple of thiefstones instead of a magic banner and you have a stubborn unit that can reroll its break tests, and is protected from magic.

Drongol
22-10-2007, 16:52
Wow.

I started reading this thread and had to stop at about Page 5 due to the misinformation being perpetuated. I sincerely hope it was corrected later down the list, but I have my doubts.

Ogre Kingdoms can be a seriously competitive army, but it requires a hide-bound approach to the army. Put simply, at 2000-2250 points, an OK army should, in order to be tournament-worthy, look a lot like this:

Tyrant with Tenderizer or GW, Maneater and/or Fistful of Laurels
3x Butchers, 1 with Skullmantle, 1 with Bangstick, all with Dispel Scrolls (optional Siegebreaker on third)
If not 3x Butchers, then 2x Butchers and 1x Army Standard Bruiser
2-3 units of 3 bulls, naked or with AHW, potentially with Bellower
2 units of 20 Gnoblar Fighters
1 unit of Gnoblar Trappers
2 units of Yhettees
2 Gorgers (optional, but no other Rare Unit is worth its points, so go figure)
The rest of the points should be spent on units of 3 Ironguts with the possibility of adding standards and Look-Out Gnoblars.

Now, if your tournament happens to allow Rhinox Riders, the bit about the Gorgers goes out the window and 2 units of single BRRs becomes almost mandatory, but really, there's just so much junk in the OK book that distracts people from what's important in the list--the meat and potatoes.

Ogres are required to play a MSU-style list in order to be successful. If you are using a unit of more than 4 Ogres (3 RnF + character), you're paying points for models that will not get to attack. A second rank of 3 bulls will run over 100 points. What's the point? S5 Bull Charges? A competent non-Undead player will never be Bull Charged anyways, moving within 6" when a charge cannot be escaped.

Likewise, there's a lot of the list that looks really great but pales when one compares it to other parts of the list. Leadbelchers are just too plain unreliable to be counted upon to do anything, and Maneaters are effectively more expensive Ironguts that cannot flee. The Hunter might be my favorite model from the OK range, but it's far better as a converted Tyrant than in the role it was designed for--2 Sabretusks and a Bolt Thrower are not worth 200 points.

Now, take all this with a grain of salt. I play an army that's quite a bit different than what I espouse in OK tactics threads and seem to do quite well. However, I know my army could be much more efficient if I switched it over.

Drongol

Kadrium
25-10-2007, 15:00
You're more or less right, though you're a bit heavy on the yhetees and gnoblars. You could afford to lose a unit of yhetees, and one or both units of gnoblar fighters to field more ironguts.

Bull units should have bellowers to act as decent charge bait. Flee and rally.

Ironguts can have standards to help them win combats, and to take lookout gnoblars.

Ogres should never come in ranked units, or really even units larger than 4. 3 is just fine. Never take champ upgrades, unless it's to protect butchers from challenges, and even then it's easier to simply have your butchers avoid combat if it's a problem.

Yhetees are allright, but will get shot up badly if you're up against a shooty army. So will other units, but Yhetees are more of a target. I personally feel 1 unit of them is enough.

Leadbelchers do, in fact, have a use. They're good for harassing cavalry, and shooting up fast cav and flyers. Not much else in the ogre range will be able to put a decent amount of wounds on fast cav or flying units that don't choose to enter a combat against us. Leadbelchers have something that can hit them fairly reliably.

Leadbelchers can also goad heavy cav into charging them. With the ability to move 6" and fire 12" further, leadbelchers have an effective striking range of 18 inches. They can hit heavy cav first, and the cav can't really afford to totally ignore them. If the cav charges them, they can flee, rally with a bellower, and reload on the rally. If the cav tries to go around them, they can flank charge or reload and shoot again.

2 Leadbelchers have the potential to generate enough shots to chew up cav units, so they can't really be ignored. They also have US 6 so they're a good flank charger. Their chance of misfire with a unit that small is low, and the unit is not expensive if it does end up panicing itself. They're basically the defacto ogre fast cav. Don't discount them so quickly.

Kadrium
25-10-2007, 15:11
hmmmm....it's been 8 months... time for a little threadomancy!!!

*rise, long-forgotten ogre kingdom tacticians, for you are needed!!*

So, let me be straightforward: I need some tips on gut magic. In fact, i need a whole article on ogre gut magic. :D


From Avian's Ogre tactics page (the link is in his sig):

http://folk.ntnu.no/~tarjeia/avian/tactics/ogre_magic.php

Glabro
13-11-2007, 15:22
So, effectively, Ogres should play MSU with flanking / combined charges instead of trying to get fear-autobreaking with single units?

I admit it does make even more sense with the advent of 7th edition and the loss of any possibility of having ranks.

I donīt think Skragg has been mentioned yet. I know many of you donīt like Special Characters, but our club seems not to be against them. So how about replacing the Tyrant with Skragg, who is tough as nails (T6, Regeneration) as well as deadly (6 attacks with S5, Killing Blow) as well as a great Slaughtermaster. The only potential problem being Frenzy. Thoughts?

Oh, and this is for games of 2500+. I tend to avoid games of 2000.

Kadrium
13-11-2007, 17:34
So, effectively, Ogres should play MSU with flanking / combined charges instead of trying to get fear-autobreaking with single units?

I admit it does make even more sense with the advent of 7th edition and the loss of any possibility of having ranks.

Precisely. It would take 8-10 ogres to cement your chances of outnumbering an opponent unit. Even naked bulls will run you well over 300 points to field in such numbers, and Ironguts nearly 500. Considering a Tyrant and 3 butchers will take ~ 800 points to field, you would only be able to afford to field 2 or 3 units of 8-10 ogres. If you think you can win a 2k game with 3 units on the board, I'd love to see the battle report.

Plus, just having greater numbers does not mean you autobreak, you must actually win the combat as well. With how outnumbered your units will be, you'll be getting flanked and that sort of thing, and not winning any combats.

Its not as hard to end up outnumbering cavalry, so smaller elite units are the sort of things we can autobreak. For block infantry, the most reliable method of breaking them is to flank and negate their rank bonus, and get as many ogres in B2B to maximize your wound output and win through that method.


I donīt think Skragg has been mentioned yet. I know many of you donīt like Special Characters, but our club seems not to be against them. So how about replacing the Tyrant with Skragg, who is tough as nails (T6, Regeneration) as well as deadly (6 attacks with S5, Killing Blow) as well as a great Slaughtermaster. The only potential problem being Frenzy. Thoughts?

Skragg is definately the most useful of the two special characters in the Army Book. He's fairly solid, is the only way you can field a lv4 wizard in a game under 3k, and the extra gorgers he lets you take are really fun. If he gets into combat quickly and doesn't get shot up, he can really turn into quite a killing machine.

I personally feel that a more standardized 2k list is "better" but its certainly debatable, and people on the Ogre Stronghold have had moderate success with Skragg lists at GTs.

Glabro
14-11-2007, 00:09
Itīs true, a basic Tyrant with a Great Weapon along with a Butcher with the Tenderizer (or two scrolls) make for a nice combo that costs the same amount of points.

If youīre using Bull Rhinoxen, you lose out on Gorgers but get to use another two-man Leadbelcher unit by doing this, however.

Kadrium
14-11-2007, 16:56
Blech, why on earth would you give a butcher a Tenderiser? I don't think he can even take it.

Glabro
14-11-2007, 20:39
Why not? And of course he can take it, same as youīve seen people take a Siegebreaker for a Butcher.

The reason? Well, why do you take a Tenderiser for the Tyrant? To kill characters, of course, or challenge Champions.

But they are only Butchers, I hear you cry? Yes, but a Butcher with a Tenderiser still has 3 attacks at S6, just like any proper fighting hero in other armies, and with D3 wounds per wounding hit, itīs enough to take on most characters, especially when you consider the Butcherīs superhuman toughness of 5 and 4 wounds.

chaos-nightwing
16-11-2007, 03:12
The list is generally okay i must say if the gnoblars asre in it.
for my experience of playing orges, i always like to put them in a small units so the can flank the infantries. the most decent thing about it is that they can bull charge and the mostly get all the attack back in , which is really good in comparison to one wound troops as is one of them die, the lost one attack back. In orges, even if u two lost two wounds, a orge still give three attack.

javaguru
27-11-2007, 02:04
I'm just starting Ogre Kingdoms and I've been doing tactics research all over the web. I've concluded that two minimum sized units of bulls and two units of gnoblars and one unit of trappers is going to be my foundation. A tyrant and maxed Butchers also seem the way to go. I also plan on two gorgers as my rare choices....

Kadrium
27-11-2007, 13:41
Chop at least one of those units of gnoblar fighters.

For a 2k army core, go something like:

Tyrant
3x Butchers

2x3 Bulls, naked w/ bellowers
3x3 Ironguts w/ standards & lookouts
1x8-10 trappers
2x1 Gorgers

This is pretty much the things you need to be successful. From here up to 2k or higher, flesh out with more ironguts, leadbelchers, yhetees, a scraplauncher, gnoblar fighters, or whatever else suits your fancy.

1 unit of 21 fighters is enough at 2k.
Field leadbelchers in units of 2 w/ bellower.
Yhetees in units of 3.
1 Scraplauncher is plenty.

Between Yhetees, Leadbelchers, and the scrappy, you'll have the points to field at most 2 of the 3 options. If you go heavier on ironguts, you may only be able to fit in one of the special unit choices.

Malorian
27-11-2007, 22:00
What I do at 2000 (and is VERY effective) is:

Bruiser w/ heavy armor, tenderiser, sword gnoblar (extra points)
butcher w/ bang stick
butcher w/ dispell scroll
3X3 ironguts
4X3 bulls w/ extra hand weapon
2X3 bulls
6X20 gnoblars
2X gorger

Basically the gnoblars are in a long line with alternating bulls w/ extra hand weapons and ironguts behind them. The naked bulls first are deployed to deal with skirmishers and then fill in the line where needed.

I slowly move up with the gnoblars absorbing the arrows and magic, and about the time my gorgers are setup to charge, I'm at their lines with almolst all my ogres.

Like Kadrium said, the MSU way is the best way to go. There's a fellow at the bunker here that likes taking huge units with full command, and it just doesn't work.

Chris_Tzeentch
18-12-2007, 12:13
Noone has said it, but gorgers are simply a wonderful buy. When they come in, they really screw up your opponent's plan. I have found the banner bearer works well in a unit of maneaters. Give him a couple of thiefstones instead of a magic banner and you have a stubborn unit that can reroll its break tests, and is protected from magic.

I am new to Ogre Kingdoms, but from the research I have done, two gorgers are a big problem for most opponents to deal with.

The majority of Ogre Kingdom armies which have done well at tournies seem to have the following attributes :-

MSU approach
3 Butchers
Plenty of Ironguts
Minimum of Bulls
Gnoblar trappers (the only Gnoblar unit)
Gorgers or Rhinox Riders

Yhetees seem to be fairly popular too.

Would anyone agree/disagree?

Malorian
18-12-2007, 17:39
I don't think a wise OK player will go magic heavy. Thanks to our spells being harder to cast as we go along, it's hard to really overpower an opponent.

Ironguts are great, but with all the gunlines and warmachines out there 48 points per model is a bit much, so you need more bulls to even it out and give you the numbers.

Gnoblars (regular) are the only realy way to reliably beat a gunline.

I would never take rhinox riders to a tournament as they would be killed so quickly you might as well not put it on. Although it does make you army look better and increase your soft scores...

Yhetees are popular, but it more has to do with their look rather than their effectiveness.

Voodoo Boyz
18-12-2007, 18:49
I'm probably starting Ogres in the New Year, and here's my question:

Why do people love Gnoblar Trappers? What exactly do they do for you? March Block? I don't see them as a way to kill Warmachine crews, what do you really use them for?

Revlid
18-12-2007, 19:07
I'm probably starting Ogres in the New Year, and here's my question:

Why do people love Gnoblar Trappers? What exactly do they do for you? March Block? I don't see them as a way to kill Warmachine crews, what do you really use them for?

Killing Warmachines and Harassing Fast Cavalry - the things that really give Ogres stress.

And cheap, highly mobile and easily killable units are never a bad thing ever.

Voodoo Boyz
18-12-2007, 19:15
Killing Warmachines and Harassing Fast Cavalry - the things that really give Ogres stress.

And cheap, highly mobile and easily killable units are never a bad thing ever.

But they're WS2, S2....how do they kill anything? Shooting? That's S2 as well though, worse at killing crew.

Harassing Fast Cav I can see being something decent, but I figure something like Leadbelchers would be better suited to stopping those things that wanted to get around to my flanks.

mightygnoblar
18-12-2007, 19:51
in addition to the usuall approach of msu (which is definetly the best way to play orge kingdoms in my opinion) another way to play is to take one massive unit. (im thinking along the lines of 10 bulls, mabe even bigger)
Now in this unit you place a tyrant with kineater and 3 theif stones to make them highly magic resistant, now after this use the usual msu units and place them behind the big unit which can make a very effective screen for the rest of the army

Mercules
18-12-2007, 20:37
in addition to the usuall approach of msu (which is definetly the best way to play orge kingdoms in my opinion) another way to play is to take one massive unit. (im thinking along the lines of 10 bulls, mabe even bigger)
Now in this unit you place a tyrant with kineater and 3 theif stones to make them highly magic resistant, now after this use the usual msu units and place them behind the big unit which can make a very effective screen for the rest of the army

And it dies to a Unit of Clanrats which has more Static CR for about a third(if that) the price.

You have
Rank + 1
Standard +1
Outnumber +1

He has
Rank +3
Standard +1

WS is the same. You are going to wound more and his armor saves will be 6+ if he has a shield and hand weapon. You have none unless you spend even more on the Bulls. Basically you are going to do about as many wounds as you take except on a charge(good luck with screening slaves and nearby weaponteams).

Most likely you are rolling against an 8 even with the re-roll about 12% of the time you are going to fail and have to worry about his 2d6 being higher than your 2d6.

"Deathstar" formations are powerful, but usually have a fatal flaw.

mightygnoblar
18-12-2007, 20:58
it would actually have no ranks as im thinking a pure 12 wide shield here, the point of it is not to win combat all by itself (in fact once the unit gets in position it is best off stay out of the thick of it for VP denial) the point of it is to take the majority of fire off the 3+ units that will be hiding behind it, it gives orges a chance against gunlines and magic heavy list by ensuring that most of your units will get there unscathed.
Im not saying that it is unbeatable, it is just an interesting tactic that can work to good effect especially if you use it in good sync with the rest of your army (in which i normally field around 1000pts of pure msu bulls, ironguts and lead belchers)

Malorian
18-12-2007, 21:20
or you could save a butt loads of points and do it with gnoblars...

mightygnoblar
18-12-2007, 21:39
again this is a valid tactic however from experince i have found that they often slow you up too much and have a bad habit of bickering right when you dont want them to, using more orges does not sacrifice the speed of your army, also the gnoblars are far less resilient to panic, and magic

Malorian
18-12-2007, 21:48
I take 120 gnoblars at 2000 and it works great. Sure you move slower but you still wipe the floor with your opponent in the last couple of turns. If they bicker you do you best to work around it (I run 1 unit of gnoblars for each unit of ogres to it doesn't slow the line)

I'd say it makes you more resilient to panic and magic because you can take more wounds before you need to make a test and have more wounds in general to soak up magic. Also if they flee they don't make units around them test.

Add on top of this a unit to bait or absorb charges, and great units for taking on large targets and these guys are perfect.

You just need to have the will to wait a couple of turns before you get into combat.

mightygnoblar
18-12-2007, 22:11
i do see your point and i agree that gnobalrs can be very effective in the roles that you have described and i tend to make extensive use of them myself (you cant really go wrong with 200pts for 100 models in my oppinion), however using them in this way somewhat changes the overall tactics of the army from a quick "get into the opponents face" list to a list that is more comparable to horde goblins.
the tatic that i describe is just another way to play the army and one that may be appealing to people who dont like gnoblars, it also has some strengths over your formation, for example yours will be far more susceptable to war machines like stone throwers which can bypass the gnoblar wall

Malorian
18-12-2007, 23:14
Well cheese stone throwers anyway...

Mercules
19-12-2007, 13:05
it would actually have no ranks as im thinking a pure 12 wide shield here, the point of it is not to win combat all by itself (in fact once the unit gets in position it is best off stay out of the thick of it for VP denial) the point of it is to take the majority of fire off the 3+ units that will be hiding behind it, it gives orges a chance against gunlines and magic heavy list by ensuring that most of your units will get there unscathed.
Im not saying that it is unbeatable, it is just an interesting tactic that can work to good effect especially if you use it in good sync with the rest of your army (in which i normally field around 1000pts of pure msu bulls, ironguts and lead belchers)

My fear with that is that something might panic the Bulls sending them through all of my units when they ran and start a chain reaction. Screening with Gnoblars gives you 20+ wounds and they can panic and the rest of the army will laugh, including other Gnoblars.

Urgat
22-12-2007, 18:39
Yhetees are popular, but it more has to do with their look rather than their effectiveness.

Funny, I don't have yetees not because I don't like their stats, because I think the minis are ugly (they're part of my personnal ***** trio: the yetees, the gorgers, and the sabertusks).

Trying a new army setup tonight versus chaos mortal at 1095 points, I'll tell you how it went.

lparigi34
22-12-2007, 19:21
Funny, I don't have yetees not because I don't like their stats, because I think the minis are ugly (they're part of my personnal ***** trio: the yetees, the gorgers, and the sabertusks).

...


Agreed on your ******* trio... I do not even think about buying Yethees or Gorgers, and I play armies that do not include them (maybe not rules wise, but what the heck!)

I plan to use either Ninja Ogres or Trolls as a Proxy for Gorgers in friendly games. As for the Yethees, they'll never make it in.

As for the Tuskers, I plan on buying a Hunter, but believe me that some green stuff will hit the Tuskers heads to make'em nicer (some more hair, some more cheeks, redesigned jaw & tusks).

Urgat
22-12-2007, 23:47
Well well, I won, major victory too :D
But it was an odd battle, to say the least.

First, the lists (sorry if the names aren't right, I'm translating from the french books):
My army:
bruiser with that common weapon that gives +1 to hit (was priceless, I rolled many 3), heavy armour and the magic stone necklace
butcher with the firestick or whatever (the bound spell item)
4 ironguts with war banner and a bellower (general with them at the begining)
5 bulls with two hand weapons, standard and a belower
1 maneater with brass of handguns
20 gnoblar warriors
8 gnoblar trappers
2 leadbelchers

My opponent:
the biggest chaos hero with two weapons, the thing that gives a 4+ ward save, and something that makes me take a Ld check if I wanna strike him (very annoying item, btw...)
Another chaos hero, don't know which one. Don't think he had magic items
10 chaos warriors (general with them) with full command and war banner
a sorcerer with a familiar, using lore of fire. He got conflagration of doom and fireball
5 mounted marauders
20 marauders (other hero with them) with full command
3 chaos ogres
1 spawn

Well, the deployement was highly in my favour. He put the chaos warrior far on one side with the mounted marauders. The idea was probably to get on my flank, but they were really far, it was stupid of him to break his army in two like that. I got my leadbelchers in front of them, and the trappers at 10" of them (there was a hill just next to the mounted marauders, I could deploy just behind so they wouldn't see me.
At that point, I was fairly comfident. I got first turn to boot.
The trappers managed to kill a mounted marauder with their shooty things on the first turn, who moved in front of them, but on the second turn I killed another one during the shooting phase, they fled, and never rallied. The leadbelchers got close to the chaos warriors back (they were moving toward the core of my army), and they didn't blow up while shooting! (yeah, it's rare, for me). rolled 44 hits, wounded two, and he saved a wound on 6+ (he got an unholy amount of 6 in that battle, on my first magic phase, he rolled only 6 to dispell, for instance. I was really going well up to this point.
Then things went bad during his first magic phase. Basically, he got his two spells through (including double 6 on conflagration of doom), and it was the same on each magic phase, he rolled only 5 and 6s...
Anyway, he made a stupid mistake, he turned his chaos warriors toward my leadbelchers, who stoicly decided not to move. They got charged, one died, the other fled. And then he overan farther away from the main fight into my gnoblars, who fled, rallied, were charged again, rallied again (the wonders of rolling low dice results), and were finally decimated to the last by the sorcerer (I got that panick spell on him, and he fled quite far away). The chaos ogres charged my irongut unit (down to 3 plus butcher and general) alongside the chaos spawn. Some lucky dies later, the chaos ogres and the spawn were gone, with me loging only one irongut.
Well anyway, A turn or two later, I had the 3 ironguts and the butcher (had joined them earlier after surviving somehow to a very nasty fireball, but regenerated all his wounds) ready to charge the front of his marauders, and the bruiser and the maneater on his flank (general had switched units). He had an opportunity of charging the ironguts, but he failed both his fear checks (the wonders of rolling high dice results :p). The combined charged (with bull charge for all of them) killed 11 marauders, I got flank charge, negated all his ranks, and outnumber. They fled in a building right behind them while all the ogres managed to restrain from pursuit.
Then I got the infamous 17 hits conflagration of doom on my ironguts (who luckily had +1 toughness at that point), leaving only the standard bearer and the butcher alive.
ow to make a long story short, a few fireballs and conflagrations of doom later on one side, and a few shots of handguns later, there were only 6 chaos warriors with their general, and the sorcerer left on the chaos side, and, on my side, the bruiser with the maneater, the butcher who had joined the two remaining bulls, and the lone standard bearer of the ironguts on my side. They all managed to charge together, the ironguts standard on the flank of the chaos warriors, the rest in the front. He didn't issue a challenge since he knew I'd take him with the butcher. A few dice rolls later, the exalted warrior was down to one wound, and the unit down to the standard bearer. My maneater refused to attack the exalted champion, who killed him promptly. I won the combat by 3, the two chaos warriors fled and were overan by my bruiser and the standard bearer.
At that point, I had won, of course, but I agreed to let him get a last turn (well, magic phase). I managed to dispell the fireball, but conflagration of doom got 15 hits on the last bulls, killing them all.

What remained on the battlefield: my bruiser, my butcher, and the brave irongut standard bearer. He only got the sorcerer left.
Major victory!

Well, I won thanks to the strange obstination my opponent had to kill the trappers I believe. He probably got pissed off they managed to kill the mounted marauders, a unit he particularly likes. Anyway, his luck with spell casting (getting 5 dies to cast, and me only 3 to dispell surely helps, though, but I never rolled more than 10 with 3 dies anyway) nearly won him the battle, but I never failed a break or panic test with my ogres (the gnoblar warriors, on the other end, left promptly after a fireball and something like 7 or 8 conflagration of doom kills. By the Maw, do I hate that spell).
Well, voila.

lparigi34: if I ever get a hunter, the sabertusks will be built from flesh hounds of Khorne :p

lord_nagash
24-12-2007, 23:59
I have been playing ogres for awhile now. My list is basically this.

Tyrant
Heavy armor
Luck gnoblar x1
Siegebreaker
Wyrdstone necklace

Butcher
Bangstick
Dispell Scroll

Butcer
Halfling Cookbook
Dispell Scroll

Butcher
Dispell Scroll x2

Bulls x3 with bellower, 2 hand weapons

Bulls x3 with bellower, 2 hand weapons

Bulls x3 with bellower, 2 hand weapons

Ironguts x3 with standard

Ironguts x3 with standard

Ironguts x3 with standard

Ironguts x3 with standard

Gnoblar fighters x20 with groinbiter (so they think someone is in charge and I needed the extra points)

Leadbelchers x2

Leadbelchers x2

Gorger

Gorger

This comes out to exactly 2250 points which around here is the size of games we play.

Your Tyrant, well, I don't have to say much about that...he hits, he kills. Butchers are needed. I can't say more about them. How would you like to go against a Tyrant and his 3 Irongut bodyguard and they can regenerate. Remember, ogre remain in play spells stay in play even if you cast another spell, it doesn't go away unless your opponent burns dice to end it.

Your bulls are to be used as flank holders while your ironguts with your characters hold the center of the battlefield. Gnoblars are mainly there for comic relief, not much else. Leadbelchers give you some missle fire, but don't expect them to do too much. I have had good-bad luck with them. Gorgers are a MUST to keep your opponent leary of them. If they get into combat with some support, they can really do a number on the enemy. I have used this list on several occasion and have lost 1 time to victory points (stupid scenarios) and drawn once and had 8 victories. I am not saying it is the best list out there, but it has served me well.

Drivebybaptism
21-02-2008, 22:09
Is Ogre Kingdoms a good army to go if your just getting back into the hobby?

studderigdave
21-02-2008, 23:40
if you know the rules a lil i would say yes. if your just learning fantasy, they are a bit tricky, but no less fun.

i know it sounds odd, but the thing that keeps me playing ogres and loving it is the tenderizer, it has to be one fo my favorite magic weapons in the entire game. the tenderizing tyrant is such a scary thing, ive taken down countless nasties with him.

my usual builds at 2k run the tyrant with tenderizer and toys, 2 butcher, 2 blocks of bulls, 2 blocks of gutz and anewly added rhinox rider, when i allowed to play with im that is.

pkain762
03-03-2008, 01:04
i'm getting into fantasy.... been playing 40k and i really like the ogre kingdom all around..... cause i was just thinking about how i would want my army to be if i was a general in the fantasy world..... and just huge, massive, killing machines sound like a bad ass army to me.

they sound like a tough elite army..... geared to kill.... plus i think they're a unique army and just would look good on the table.... may not win all of the time but they sound like they're fun and challenging to play.

i am going to keep reading and maybe see if i can read some match results and see if i want to start an ogre kingdom army up

kain

Mercules
03-03-2008, 13:16
i am going to keep reading and maybe see if i can read some match results and see if i want to start an ogre kingdom army up


Well, welcome and good luck. I like Ogres because they are challenging. Ogres require tactics. They require singling out an enemy unit at a time to smash in the front and flank to negate rank bonus. They don't have much range but can be vulnerable to range so you really have to get into CC. Even so there are times you want to avoid CC like against blocks of troops with huge static CC.

So all in all Ogres are a tough army to play, but very satisfying. It's always fun when you opponent says in a voice that is crawling higher all the time, "You get how many Str 7 attacks? But... but... that's just 4 models." or "What do you mean my knights only have a 6+ armor save after Str modification? Aren't those core troops for you?" Other fun moments are when your general charges out of a unit alone, breaks an enemy unit, and runs them down.

pkain762
03-03-2008, 15:08
Well, welcome and good luck. I like Ogres because they are challenging. Ogres require tactics.

like you said they are challenging and it is more fullfilling when you kill the enemy and win..... that is why i like them..... they're strong, unique, cool models, and challenging......

IMHO if i started an army and won all the time with some cheese list, i would get bored of the army.... so the fact that i won't be able to win all the time doesn't bother me.... however, atleast i know that all of my battles will be fun and have some high points for my ogre army....

kain

Negafex
03-03-2008, 23:53
wow, not to get off topic but i just logged in after a 2 year hiatus the other day....and i cant beleive my old tacticas still going ;P good job guys

Moose_MCA
04-03-2008, 00:08
Woah... way to go Negafex!

pkain762
06-03-2008, 23:36
people say that the OK isn't that popular.... well i tend to show the people in my area that they're popular and they're ready to eat the meat from their bones!

kain

pkain762
09-03-2008, 19:48
I bought the army book for the Ogre Kingdom and confirmed that yes i will be ammassing a hunormous army of ogres....

therefore I believe that the first buy that i'd have to go for would be the battalion box set which includes-

6 ogre bulls
4 Ironguts
4 Leadbelchers
24 Gnoblars

That's a good solid buy for 90 bucks because all of that sold seperately would have been 150 easily. so what i'm asking is.... is that bn box set worth buying? i believe it is..... just looking for some feedback

the bn box set is roughly around 670 pts w/out any updates

kain

osore
19-03-2008, 22:41
Newb to the boards, as well as Ogres seeking advice.
My friends and I are picking Fantasy up again (we took a break for a bit to play 40k and Warmachine). I have an Ogre Kingdoms army that I have played all of two times. I will be playing again vs. my friends High Elves(both games were against his HE), and am looking for advice. I will probably be facing lost of archers/rbt with some cav thrown in to mop up. He generally shoots in the first few turns, and waits for me to close in and charges with his cav. The first game he was unsure of what to expect from my big fats, and I won due to this. 2nd game we rolled the mission where we deploy in lines, on the edge of the table. He got 1st turn and focused his shooting on a unit of bulls on the flank, they broke and ran, causing another 2 units to break as well. So my first turn saw 3 expensive units off of the board (bad dice rolls for rallying). I can chalk that loss up to the poor luck of mission choice. What I am concerned about is facing the new army book HE, I have not seen it yet and am unsure about what I will face.
I use 1-2 units of bulls to flank, 1-2 units of Ironguts down the center, and leadbelchers to soften up units for the guts to charge. I mix in some maneaters/gnoblars as needed, and when points allow. I have not used my scraplauncher, or yhetees (they look bad, on paper), but I do love my Gorger to come on and help deal with warmachine crews. I guess if anyone has fought HE recently and in particular faced an opponent that was heavy in the shooting department, please give me some tips/advice. Thanks in adnvance.

Peegore
23-03-2008, 21:58
@osore, I'm no master of tactics by a long straw, but I can appreciate the hurt us Ogre players feel when facing a wall of shooters. I personally face Dwarfs quite regularly, and it's a pain in the backside.

Firstly, come to terms with the fact that some ogres aren't going to make it across the battlefield! We don't tend own a lot of armour, so persistant casting of toothcracker and trollguts helps to reduce the number of fatalities, assuming he doesn't remove them in his magic phase before shooting ( don't forget, once in play, they are 7+ to dispel.... he can only get rid of so many )
Also staying with magic, Bonecruncher in turn 2+ when you are close enough to cast can often take down the 2 man crew of a boltthrower if you cause enough hits...save a dice or two till last and see if you can get this one off. )

Second, Our relatively average leadership doesn't help when it comes to break tests, especially units operating more than 12" away from the general. Kineater ( 6" panic re-roll Bigname ) on the general is useful, and a jade lion on a butcher running with a unit on a flank can keep them in check. Basically, we WILL take damage, we just don't want to run if we do.

Thirdly, When we DO break due to shooting, make sure your units aren't too compact. If we flee through a friendly unit especially away from the general, it can be a house of cards.
NOTE: Regarding your problem with 1 unit fleeing from shooting, and panicking 2 other units. Make sure you've read the rules correctly ( not saying you haven't;) ). To panic another unit, your shot-up unit must have to have been DESTROYED by shooting ( effects units with 6" ), or Flee through the said other units. The only other way to panic another units is to break from combat (effects units within 6" ). As far as I can tell, you possibly did neither, so there may have been a few units ther that shouldn't have actually run!

Fourthly, RUN FATBOYS RUN! Don't hesitate. Pick your target units from turn one and go at them!

Fifthly and lastly, Leadbelchers I find are useful as a front first wave ( in say 3 units of 2 ). Head these towards stuff like the Cavalry, and make sure at the end of each movement phase they are angled so that if they bait and flee, or take a charge/stand&shoot/break, they will leave the Knights stranded in front of your Ironguts ready for a countercharge!!!
In fact, when your opponent sees you setting up bait-and-flee units, he's likely to shoot at them as they can cause a lot of problems for the knights etc. COOL BEANS! if he's shooting at them, he's not shooting at you 'ard stuff!!!!

Anyhow, hope that's of some use. In fact, If I have the time, I might add my own take on Ogre Tactics vs the various armies I face on my Website ( link in my sig. ).

Peegore

pkain762
25-03-2008, 04:03
that's some helpful tips...... i especially like the baiting units of leadbelchers..... that would work well... but what i think is the best thing to do... as you said... target one or two units... and try to eliminate that target.... then move to the next one.... i've seen a few battles where an ogre player spreads his force out too thin... and then they are just cannon fodder....

kain

studderigdave
02-04-2008, 04:51
i just want to chime in to see what everyone is running on their tyrants, i run the standard kit of tenderzier, mawseeker and jade lion. toughness 6 beatie is pretty huge in my book, but i would like to hear what others are running.

Mercules
02-04-2008, 11:59
I am currently running with

Tenderizer
Gut Maw
Wyrdstone Necklace

I've found to get the best results from the Tenderizer I end up challenging. Might as well heal up when done so I can just keep on going.

Garg Foecrusher
02-04-2008, 12:24
i just want to chime in to see what everyone is running on their tyrants, i run the standard kit of tenderzier, mawseeker and jade lion. toughness 6 beatie is pretty huge in my book, but i would like to hear what others are running.

I field that too :p
The Jade Lion have saved my ass plenty of times, and what's scarier than a s7, t6, 5a, d3-wounds dealing monster?

The Scraplauncher have done wonders for me, last time it basically won me the game with one charge. (It completely crushed a unit of 8 Heavy Horsemen with a mounted Liche Priest in turn 2 or 3:angel: )

Another thing, I usually field as many items that helps rolling anything ld-related, because with ld 7 or 8 on average, and my rolling, that's a lot of running ogres

pkain762
15-04-2008, 13:13
i agree with taking whatever you can to improve your leadership.... i played a game on satarday that if i would have had something to improve my leadership, i would have stayed in combat and won the game... so improving the leadership is a must in my book as well.....

kain

Edit
19-04-2008, 20:06
quick question on hunters, is the harpoon launcher move or fire, and it damages like a bolt thrower, so d3 damage and no armor save correct?


I'm setting up a theme army with three hunters 4 scrap launchers and a ton of gnoblars, it will lose alot, but i think it will be interesting. /basically a hunting party army.

pkain762
20-04-2008, 17:47
you do know that you can not have more gnoblar core units than ogre core units.... so if you have 3 gnoblar core units you have to have atleast 3 ogre core units..... you may already know this.... but i thought i'd just throw that out there....

kain

Sterling
20-04-2008, 19:28
you do know that you can not have more gnoblar core units than ogre core units.... so if you have 3 gnoblar core units you have to have atleast 3 ogre core units..... you may already know this.... but i thought i'd just throw that out there....

kain
That's not correct, actually. You cannot have more fighter units than bull units. You can always have 1 trapper unit, and you can have an additional trapper unit for each hunter... ie; 1 tyrant, 3 hunters & 2 bull units can support 4 trapper units (3 hunters + 1 normal) and 2 fighter units (because of 2 bulls) and 6 scraplauchers (for having 6 total gnoblar units... even though that is most likely a 2k army, which means you don't have enough special slots for all 6.

Edit
21-04-2008, 13:25
Hmm, I did not see that rule, but I did just get the book (they are to be my secondary army) The list is constantly in flux yet anyway, I only started buying models yesterday.

What was the skinny on the harpoon launcher?

Dragonknight31
21-04-2008, 13:42
The Hunter Harpoon Launcher is Move or Fire, and just like a bolt thrower (warmachine) you can get a free pivot.

Mercules
21-04-2008, 14:17
The Hunter Harpoon Launcher is Move or Fire, and just like a bolt thrower (warmachine) you can get a free pivot.

Move or Fire
If the Hunter is alone it gets a free pivot(meaning no Sabertusks with him) like a Bolt Thrower.
It can stand and shoot(nasty surprise for some folks).
If it wounds a Large Target that target must make a Str test or suffer an additional wound(Not many Large Targets with low Str though)

Sterling
21-04-2008, 16:08
The harpoon launcher looks decent until you look at the fact that it takes a hero slot and costs more than any other bolt thrower.

there are several reasons not to take hunters...
1) they aren't the best at anything. butchers are better at range and support, bruisers are better at close combat and leading troops.
2) they aren't good at serving 2 roles. they can't do both ranged and CC, because they aren't move or fire. They can't be ranged generals because they can't be general.
3) our magic works best the more casts you attempt, since everyone knows all spells. a butcher is 15 points less and adds much more efficiency to the army.
4) trappers are great, but i have almost never been able to set up 2 trappers scouted close to the enemy. If they can't scout, you may as well have a unit of fighters.

pkain762
21-04-2008, 16:48
That's not correct, actually. You cannot have more fighter units than bull units. You can always have 1 trapper unit, and you can have an additional trapper unit for each hunter... ie; 1 tyrant, 3 hunters & 2 bull units can support 4 trapper units (3 hunters + 1 normal) and 2 fighter units (because of 2 bulls) and 6 scraplauchers (for having 6 total gnoblar units... even though that is most likely a 2k army, which means you don't have enough special slots for all 6.

you're right about the trappers... however, i was assuming regular gnoblars were the topic.... that is why i said you can not have more gnoblar core choices than you have ogre core choices..... which is a rule but yes you can have a gnoblar trappers attached to the hunter......

so actually i am right.... because the gnoblars wouldn't be a core choice now would they? so you still can not have more gnoblar core than ogre core... it's in there :)

kain