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ShaggothLord
24-01-2010, 20:23
Most lists I have tried do not work, I've tried many times to win with Orcs and Goblins, all ending in defeat. What do other people do to make a better list? Some new things I have come up with an idea that might be good: Night Gob bsb with Spider banner in a Spear Chukka(1 in 6 chance to kill a whole rank!) Would this work? Here's an army ;list that I was thinking of using, hopefully around 1.5k because that's what I'm playing around with.
Heroes:
Black Orc-Heavy Armor, Boar, Best basha, shield (in an orc block)
Black orc-Chariot, Akrit Axe, Heavy Armor, Shield (with other chariots)
Night Goblin-BSB, spider banner, light armor (with a spear chukka)
Goblin Shaman-Level 2, Chariot, Scroll, 2 Mushrooms( With chariots, hopefully gets hand of Gork)
Core:
23 Orcs-shields, full command
25 Orcs-shields, full command
Special:
25 Black Orcs-Full Command, Mork's Totem
Chariot
Chariot
2 Spear Chukkas-bullies
Rare:
Doom Diver

Would a setup like this work? I just need some tips, I really would like to experience some more wins with Orcs and Goblins. Thank you!

SL

Urgat
24-01-2010, 21:09
Night Gob bsb with Spider banner in a Spear Chukka(1 in 6 chance to kill a whole rank!) Would this work?

No, it doesn't work like that, poison makes roll a 6 to hit it autowounds, I'm not sure how you jumpt to killing a whole rank with that. I'll let someone else comment on the list.

ShaggothLord
24-01-2010, 21:12
No, it doesn't work like that, poison makes roll a 6 to hit it autowounds, I'm not sure how you jumpt to killing a whole rank with that. I'll let someone else comment on the list.

A smarter guy a GW thought of that one today, so I just assumed he was right.:angel: It's not about the list itself, it's more, "What works with orcs and Goblins?" How do people win with hem, and what do they use?

Avian
24-01-2010, 21:15
Poison on a bolt thrower doesn't auto-wound anything other than the first guy in the rank.
And even if it did, it would almost certainly be a great waste of points and character slot.

Are you also aware that you can't form chariots into units at all in the greenskin list. Each of your for chariots is an individual unit and there is nothing you can do about it.

And a regular goblin shaman can't get magic mushrooms.

I get a little more than 1750 pts in this list. Considering that you have a Lord and 4 Special choices, it must be 2000+ points for it to be legal and at that level you need at least one more Core choice. May I suggest a few units of fast cavalry? It is also worthwhile to invest in some goblin infantry.

See link in signature for more tips.

ShaggothLord
24-01-2010, 21:26
Avian, I am very grateful for your post. I know that you are a master of Orcs and Goblins. :) I was mainly reading off a list that a guy gave me, I was not really thinking of core/special/rare. I meant night goblin, but forgot to type night. :P On the army itself, what is considered useful? How do many tournament goers( if any run them) setup their lists? Yes, I am aware Chariots do not form up, I say go with chariots because I was intenidng on combo charges. I have read many of your articles Avian, most of it just doesn't seem to be working for me. Thanks for the help.

SL

BlackVomit
24-01-2010, 21:28
1. Goblin Shaman cannot take mushrooms. Night Goblin Shaman can but he can't have a chariot as a mount.
2. Poison does not work on rear ranks as you do not roll to hit. Swap the BSB with a Black Orc on Boar as BSB & put him in the other Orc unit.
3. Out of the 1500, you are putting 400+ pts into the Black Orc unit.. too many points (IMO)
4. No fast cav, no night goblin fanatics and/or no squig hoppers??
5. If you want to go magic defense have a lvl 1 goblin on wolf with the staff of sneaky stealing. At 1500 you have 2 basic, 3 from the BSB, one from the gobbo & one from the staff = 7 dispel dice per turn (and your opponent loses 1 power dice)

Just my 2 cents..

ShaggothLord
24-01-2010, 21:54
It was an idea for a list, can we please move away from it? I am asking for some advice on Greenskins in general.

Razakel
24-01-2010, 22:58
I haven't played as Orcs & Goblins in a long time, but I play against them reasonably often.

#1: What may be the Greenskin army's greatest strength is its diversity of troops, include a bit of everything. Blocks of Orcs for fighting, Night Goblins for their sneakiness and Fanatics (as a point of note, don't include 3 Fanatics in every unit, spread them out in 1's and 2's across several units, this will make your opponent guess, and it won't be disastrous if the unit Panics and legs it). Use Fast Cavalry to outmaneuver and march block them while using your regular Cavalry and Orcs to deliver a killing blow.

#2: Giants contrary to popular belief, can be good if used correctly, they are magnificent for drawing enemy fire and many generals use them expressly for that purpose.

#3: I'm sure many people may disagree with this: But O&G are one of the weaker army's right now. Primarily because of a low-average Leadership combined with the rigors of Animosity can destroy your best laid plans. Try not to let losses of this nature get to you, and keep trying.

#4: Practice makes perfect, play a lot of games often and try not to be demoralized too much by losses, we all lost when starting new armies and your goal is to learn. Proxy various units instead of buying them and see how you enjoy them (it would take a particularly huge douche to be disgruntled by this in a friendly).

As for specific army lists and combinations of units? I'm afraid I'm at a loss for words beyond some general advice. I really hope you can improve your gameplay soon and enjoy the game that bit more, good luck!

outbreak
24-01-2010, 23:04
Illegal things aside, the list structure looks on the right track, i would be trying to fit in a couple of large (30) night gobbo units with fanatics to add some static combat res. I'd also drop your gobbo bsb and give one of your black orcs the BSB (id run both on boars one in each orc warrior block and i'd probably give this bsb morks spirit totem). I'd drop your black orcs to about 15 aswell to free up points. And definiatly add some fast cav to this, either 2x5 wolf riders with spears and muso or some 5 man units of spider riders with spears/bows and a muso. These guys will take out your enemy warmachines/bait/draw fire while the rest of your army advances. I'd also drop the mushrooms from your shaman and just go 2xdispell scrolls. Also make him lvl 1. 1 lvl 2 isn't going to get magic through anyway i'd go all out defense.

ShaggothLord
24-01-2010, 23:27
What do people think of Black Orcs? Do people like them? They seem nice as they don't squabble and also are Armed to da teef! :D I'm also contemplating the Hook strategy, what do you think about that?

Chicago Slim
25-01-2010, 02:18
I generally use Black Orcs in small units (8-12 models), with no banner-- they're flexible (they can hit HARD to punch armor, or hit A LOT to crush horde infantry).

By and large, I see Greenskins as a great horde army-- large blocks of troops, either Orcs or Goblins as you prefer. I prefer blocks of 28 Boyz with shields and full command (198 points), led by a Black Orc character on a boar, to quell animosity... That makes them durable (T4, 4+ save in HTH), while still cheap. The character can be a character killer, or an infantry killer, as you prefer (just today, I ran a Warboss with the Iron Gnashas, Effigy of Mork and Akkrit Axe-- 5 attacks with a reroll to hit, and killing blow, gives a pretty good chance to auto-kill an enemy character...) If you want to load up on reliable, cheap units of troops, it's definitely worth looking at Mork's Spirit Totem on a BSB (adds 3 dispel dice to your pool)... but by and large, look to your characters to do the killing, while your troops add 5 points of static CR...

Mixing in Boar Boyz, Trolls, or other small units that can hit flanks of units that you've pinned down with your big mobs of boyz, you can definitely have some success... but make sure you task two units to anything you really NEED to see happen, because you can never tell with the Squabble will turn up!

ShaggothLord
25-01-2010, 02:24
How about a pincer strategy? On the following link, click on Pincer strategy, number 5, and see how you think that would fare with Orcs and Goblins. Thanks!

SL

Avian
25-01-2010, 07:58
Due to Leadership issues, greenskin armies tend to have some problems with splitting their forces too much.


Black Orcs aren't that bad if you can prevent them getting shot to bits (they die only marginally quicker than regular Orcs if given shields, but cost more than twice as much). I like around 12 with shields, standard and musician and one of the three 25-point banners.

In you list, you need mobility, that is the main thing you are lacking.

Leogun_91
25-01-2010, 09:37
Night Gob bsb with Spider banner in a Spear Chukka(1 in 6 chance to kill a whole rank!) Doesn't slay the whole unit just the first guy, so it's only usefull against monsters. It does however work well with a lobba if you feel for having a poisonous warmachine (just imagine that the stones are crawling with spiders).


The list itself has many issues but these have been pointed out by others.

Avian
25-01-2010, 09:41
It does however work well with a lobba if you feel for having a poisonous warmachine (just imagine that the stones are crawling with spiders).
Eh? Lobbas don't roll to hit at all, so poison doesn't do anything.

ShaggothLord
25-01-2010, 20:43
Avian: In your opinion, how well do orcs and goblins do at 1500? I have used your lists before(mixed) with not much success. Here is what I have readily available.
Black Orc on boar
Black orc BSB
Night Goblin SHaman
Night Goblin Big Boss
46 Orc Warriors
70 Night Goblins
15 Fanatics
10 Wolf Riders
10 Spider Riders
2 Orc Chariots
Giant
20 Black Orcs
3 Trolls
Doom Diver
8 Squig Hoppers
2 Cpear Chukkas

No, I'm not asking for you to make a list for me, I'm asking is it realistic for me to make a 1.5k list out of these that is considered taking on all comers? Should I instead focus on 1-2 phases and dominate those? I would just really like to create a good army list with Orcs ans Goblins. Thanks!
SL

outbreak
25-01-2010, 22:22
Well i'm not avian and i'm sure he knows ALOT more then me but i think you can make a decent list with those models

I'd look at something like

black orc general on boar
black orc bsb
shaman with dispell scrolls and lvl 1

23 boyz
24 boyz
30/25 night gobbos (2 fanatics)
30/25 night gobbos (2 fanatics)
2x5 wolf riders with musos and spears

2 spear chukkas
7 squig hoppers/1 chariot
1 chariot

giant/doomdiver

The fact of what i find with OnG (some may disagree this is my opinion), is that it's going to take you time to get used to your list and you'll need to focus on what beat you when you lose and then think of ways to counter it with what you have. OnG are going to be at a disadvantage vs alot of newer books so you'll need to think of ways to get your fanatics into key units, who to shoot first, what to tie up/take out quick with your wolf riders.

ShaggothLord
25-01-2010, 22:39
You think 2 scrolls are better magic defense than Staff of Sneaky Stealin? Previously I have had good luck with Giants, perhaps I will use him. But no Black Orcs? I really like the models and they seem good, but I can't imagine where they would fit in the list. Thank you, everybody, for your help, this info is all useful. I'd like to get some practice games on Lorenz soon, but I can't login, is anyone else having this problem?

SL

Urgat
25-01-2010, 22:46
#2: Giants contrary to popular belief, can be good if used correctly, they are magnificent for drawing enemy fire and many generals use them expressly for that purpose.

A bloody fine strategy too, instead of losing 3 or 4 orcs or gobs, you lose a giant! Hurra! The large blocks which woldn't care either way are fine!
I don't know if it's just me, but I prefer when my opponent shoots at my 30 strong gob units rather than my giant...

ShaggothLord
25-01-2010, 22:51
A bloody fine strategy too, instead of losing 3 or 4 orcs or gobs, you lose a giant! Hurra! The large blocks which woldn't care either way are fine!
I don't know if it's just me, but I prefer when my opponent shoots at my 30 strong gob units rather than my giant...

I actually used one against Dwarfs and he did not die. I pulled off a Draw there.

edit: Do people think a Magic Heavy Army would be effective? Getting all those movement spells might be nice. Isn't it also possible to get a lot of movement spells with the Effigy of Gork in the SoC Grimgor's Ardboyz list?

Dutch_Digger
25-01-2010, 23:11
i think magic could be quite good (and a must for a gunline) except for one downside

the newer armies tend to outmagic you with greater effect. if you face a magic heavy or good dispel force, our magic will have only little effect compared to the enemy's magic and thus be countereffective.

If you take Tomb Kings for example, (yeah extreme example i know) they have alot of spells and if most of them are dispelled, they can still get some very effective incantations out.
Our eadbutt is good, but 1 coming through wont make your foes cry.

also the goblin spells have high castingvalues so you will need alot of dice for each spell, same with Waaaagh!, but the enemy will save his scrolls for that



all in all, i think orc magic can be a nice addition, but with winning in mind i would not rely on it too much.

Kitskin
25-01-2010, 23:25
I wouldn't include a unit of blorcs bigger than 12 at 1.5k as they're just too expensive pts wise, i much prefer a comparable unit of savage orc big un's with the butchery banner for 4 str 5 atks each in the first round of combat (screened and generally on one flank of my army).
For good things in general i think Chicago Slim has it right, personally i take a blorc general on boar, blorc bsb on boar (spirit totem) and a s. orc bigboss on a chariot (or goblin shaman on chariot) at 1500pts and fill out 2 of my specials with chariots and one for spearchuckas/rocklobba. Two units of 28 shield orcs for the general/bsb. Night goblins for flank protection and some fast cavalry.
Usually my rare ends up as pump wagons because they're cheap and fun.
I find that chariots play a large part in my O&G army due to their indespensible ability to back up those blocks of infantry.
Also, i like to give my goblin shaman on chariot one dispel scroll plus the brimstone bauble, as most of the time people direct atks on the shaman if they get a chance, plus it makes him great for dealing with large monsters.

P.s. Giants = great vs. vampire counts (units, not characters), atleast the non ethereal kind.

ShaggothLord
26-01-2010, 01:11
I've taken everybody's advice, and I came up with this list, let me know. Should I post this in the list forum instead?
Heroes:
Black Orc-Boar, Heavy Armor, Shield, Best Basha, kickin boots-152
Black Orc- Heavy Armor, BSB, Mork Spirit Totem-164
Night Goblin Shaman-2 scrolls-100
Core:
23 Orcs- Full Command, XHW-191
24 Orcs-Shields, Full Command-174
5 Wolf Riders- Musician-66 (protect flanks)
5 Wolf Riders-Musician-66 (protect flanks)
5 Spider Riders-musician-71 (hunters)
5 Spider Riders-musician-71 (hunters)
20 Night Goblins-musician, fanatic-89
Special:
Orc Chariot-80
Orc Chariot-80
2 x Spear Chukkas-bullies-80

Rare:
Doom Diver-80

that leaves another 36 points, for another Chukka perhaps, but I was hoping to keep the list within my own models. Thoughts?

Sergeant Uriel Ventris
26-01-2010, 01:19
And a regular goblin shaman can't get magic mushrooms.

That's not true, he just has to know which part of the city to look for dealers.

I've always had great luck with strong blocks of orcs, supporting units of night goblins with fanatics, a couple of units of wolves and/or spiders, some tough orc heroes and some magickee goblin heroes.

ShaggothLord
26-01-2010, 02:32
So not even Chariots, but Night Goblin units supporting instead? Doesn't that leave nobody to pack the punch?

Sergeant Uriel Ventris
26-01-2010, 04:09
I mostly play with a small group of friends, and I've never found chariots to be that necessary. I normally play against Dwarfs, Warriors of Chaos, and Bretonnians. I like big blocks of infantry. I do pretty well against my friends, but maybe they just have a different play style. I'd say you should test some things out and see how it works.

I did use a chariot a couple times... it was mostly a cannon magnet.

Nuada
26-01-2010, 09:42
I just need some tips, I really would like to experience some more wins with Orcs and Goblins.

From my own personal experience with O&G my most effective units are blocks of 24 savage orcs, 6 wide, 4 deep, FC costing 270 each. I've tried the small units of 10 people keep advising me to take, but i don't like them.
I usually take 3 of these units, then 2 blocks of 30 orc boys with additional choppas. I don't bother with black orcs at all. The 2 orc boy units have black orc characters in them so they don't squabble.

For specials and rares i switch between 4 orc chariots, and 4 pump wagons. Or i'll take spear chukkas and a doom diver, depends on my mood. It's been a fairly successfull list for me. It has weak points, but so does every list.

Hope that helps, and good luck :)

BlackVomit
26-01-2010, 11:44
Black Orc- Heavy Armor, BSB, Mork Spirit Totem-164

I recommend you put the BSB on a boar for a +2 AS & 14" move

ShaggothLord
26-01-2010, 20:37
I recommend you put the BSB on a boar for a +2 AS & 14" move

That was mainly for a, "use what I have list" I made a new list that I think seems very nice, let me know what you think. (link)

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4337738#post4337738

Da GoBBo
26-01-2010, 21:08
I'v been playing this army for 11 years now and still don't know what I'm doing half the time. I'v tried all sorts of lists and all kinds of tactics. What I have found out is that you should not be to concerned about the other is having in store for you. Yes, you will be punished and your boyz will die. You field a resilient army though. If there is one thing you can count on, it is that you will allways have a lot of models on the table. It doesn't matter if half of em dies because there is still the other half.

This can be your downfall too. Itīs pretty hard to move all those models around the table. You must form a plan when starting to deploy and try to stick with it. The movement phase is important, but with a horde army it's hard to alter course. One of the reasons I like chariots is because it is fairly easy to give them a different task along the way. Invaluable IMO.

So you have lots of models you have to give a task right from the start. What do you use? You obviously need to do some damage, which can be done at range or up close. Either way, you need to force your opponent to be in a certain spot. If you want to damage them at range, you need to keep your opponent at bay, if you want to throw them to the floor, you must make sure you enter combat where it is most convenient for you.

I believe O&G should win battle by close combat, so that's what I will talk about some more. I said earlier you should not worry to much about what your opponent will do, but that does not mean you should not take into account what your opponent might or might not do. If you want combat, you must make sure you know where this combat will take place. Present targets that are a valid prize to beat in combat. Nobody wants to destroy 60 points of goblins when their unit will end up in a nasty place where they themselves will get the beat. An orc block with a character is an appealing target though. It's big points and not that hard to win from in combat. Luckily for you, it is also the unit you yourself want have in combat. A fully kitted orc boy unit will still start with static CR 5, have T4 and a 4+ AS. That's something you can depend on.

We have a problem now. Both you and your opponent want this combat. Your job isn't to merely get this combat going, but also to turn the combat as much in your favour as possible before this big clash. There are numerous ways to do that, but the easiest is reducing their static CR. Shooting, fanatics, some hits with disposable units, you name it. You don't want your boyz to clash with an enemy unit still in full shape.

So there you have it, a glimps into my view on the O&G players mindset. This is not THE way to play, but it's an example of how the army works. We don't excel at any of the phases in the game, but we sure can make it so that our enemies aren't really up for it either. We disrupt their positioning with cheap redirectors, knock of CR with cheap ranged attacks, lure them into thinking themselves superior by just being cheap and not overly powerfull. Their numbers dwindle while ours last, and so we reign supreme.

outbreak
26-01-2010, 23:36
The list you've posted above looks decent and similar to lists i've seen do really well, the sneaky stealing staff is compared to 2 scrolls i guess, i just prefer having 2 gaunteed spell stoppers as you should already have 6dd

ShaggothLord
27-01-2010, 00:15
The list that I link to, or posted? Thank you!

SL

outbreak
27-01-2010, 01:00
The one you linked to is the same as what you posted i think

ShaggothLord
27-01-2010, 01:04
They are 2 very different lists my friend. Instead of the shaman, my other list has an orc boss on chariot, and 4 spear chukkas, and 2 night goblin units, and...well, you get my drift.