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Fold
26-01-2010, 23:00
What's this all about?
I'm building a 40k army picker "wizard" which will help players that are new to the game, or who are looking to start a new army, surmount the sometimes difficult challenge of deciding what army to collect.

As part of this I need to score each of the 40k armies that currently have codexes on a number of factors. It's for this that I need help from you, the good people of Warseer, certainly the most knowledgeable and wise community of 40k players anyone could ever hope to know (:shifty: yes, that's it, flatter them... that will make them do your bidding).

The first area I need your help on is the "learning curve" associated with the army. In the army picker, I've described this factor like this...



Some armies are relatively easy to learn or have straight forward approaches to battle. They're best for beginners who need to concentrate on learning the game, or for those who just want to get on with building an army without worrying too much about the finer points of playing and winning.

Others tend to require a more nuanced understanding of the game rules, often require more advanced strategies to play effectively and are less forgiving of mistakes, bad luck and poor tactics. These are great for players looking for a new challenge.


Okay, I'm game, what do you want me to do?
I simply need you to arrange the 40k armies that have codexes (that's fifteen altogether) into four "tiers". Tier 1 armies are those that have a shallow (easy) learning curve, while tier 4 armies have a very steep learning curve. The rest of the armies will fit somewhere in the middle into tiers 2 and 3. Within each tier the armies can be given in any order. Here's a starter for ten:

Tier 1 (Easy to learn)
Space Marines
Black Templars
Chaos Space Marines
Space Wolves

Tier 2 (Fairly easy)
Imperial Guard
Necrons
Daemons
Orks

Tier 3 (More challenging)
Dark Angels
Tau Empire
Tyranids

Tier 4 (Steep learning curve)
Eldar
Dark Eldar
Witch Hunters
Daemonhunters

Surely it depends on the build?
Yes, you're right, of course it does, but work with me here! In any kind of "system" for determining what army a person should collect there has to be a few assumptions made. In this case, I'd like you to assume that we're talking about an "average" or "typical" army - the kind of thing you would recommend a beginner first buys and paints.

Use your own experiences and those of other players you know to base your decision on. Note: If you don't feel like you know an army well enough to judge it's learning curve, then simply leave it out.

The more opinions I can collate the more accurate and helpful the army picker wizard will be so I, and untold thousands of gamers for years to come, will thank you for any assistance you can give.

Edit: Part 2, popularity (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4341306), is also up

Bunnahabhain
26-01-2010, 23:14
Your list is about right. Eldar should be a bit higher, Necrons a bit lower, but that doesn't matter due to:

Different Builds

All armies can be built with multiple different builds- yes, even Necrons- some of which are much easier to use than others. An Ork 180 boyz with 2 KFF list is about as point and click as is possible. A Marine or Guard gunline is very hard to use and win with...

If you are talking about fairly well optimised competitive lists, then you can draw up a ranking, otherwise, it's impossible.

polymphus
26-01-2010, 23:34
Bunnahabhain, I think since the idea is to discover an army's learning curve we need to think in terms of the 'easiest' build (i.e. the simplest to master). I know it's all a bit abstract, but anything that cuts down on all the 'help me choose an army' threads is a good idea.

So yeah, Eldar go to tier 3, and I'd consider WH for T3 as well. Tau are sitting on the fence between 3/4 so if 4 seems underpopulated I'd swing them that way.

Fold
26-01-2010, 23:34
All armies can be built with multiple different builds- yes, even Necrons- some of which are much easier to use than others.

Thanks Bunnahabhain. yes you're right, thanks for pointing this out as I forgot to caveat this in my post. I've now put a note in to this effect, stating I'm considering "average" or "typical" builds for each army.

Although arguably the very presence of many different possible builds adds to the learning curve itself ;)

In any case, thanks for your contribution.

druchii
26-01-2010, 23:59
What's this all about?
I'm building a 40k army picker "wizard" which will help players that are new to the game, or who are looking to start a new army, surmount the sometimes difficult challenge of deciding what army to collect.

As part of this I need to score each of the 40k armies that currently have codexes on a number of factors. It's for this that I need help from you, the good people of Warseer, certainly the most knowledgeable and wise community of 40k players anyone could ever hope to know (:shifty: yes, that's it, flatter them... that will make them do your bidding).

The first area I need your help on is the "learning curve" associated with the army. In the army picker, I've described this factor like this...



Okay, I'm game, what do you want me to do?
I simply need you to arrange the 40k armies that have codexes (that's fifteen altogether) into four "tiers". Tier 1 armies are those that have a shallow (easy) learning curve, while tier 4 armies have a very steep learning curve. The rest of the armies will fit somewhere in the middle into tiers 2 and 3. Within each tier the armies can be given in any order. Here's a starter for ten:

Tier 1 (Easy to learn)
Space Marines
Black Templars
Chaos Space Marines
Space Wolves

Tier 2 (Fairly easy)
Imperial Guard
Necrons
Daemons
Orks

Tier 3 (More challenging)
Dark Angels
Tau Empire
Tyranids

Tier 4 (Steep learning curve)
Eldar
Dark Eldar
Witch Hunters
Daemonhunters

Surely it depends on the build?
Yes, you're right, of course it does, but work with me here! In any kind of "system" for determining what army a person should collect there has to be a few assumptions made. In this case, I'd like you to assume that we're talking about an "average" or "typical" army - the kind of thing you would recommend a beginner first buys and paints.

Use your own experiences and those of other players you know to base your decision on. Note: If you don't feel like you know an army well enough to judge it's learning curve, then simply leave it out.

The more opinions I can collate the more accurate and helpful the army picker wizard will be so I, and untold thousands of gamers for years to come, will thank you for any assistance you can give.

Demons need to be in tier 4. Anyone who thinks they're "Easy to learn with" hasn't played them for any amount of time...they were as hard for me to learn as my Dark Eldar. Witchhunters are a very easy army to learn how to play. That is, sisters of battle. There's no rationale for them being tier 4.

I think everything else is almost spot on.

d

Laurela
27-01-2010, 01:01
I'd have to agree with what druchii has said, Daemons are a fairly hard army to learn to play effectively, they should definitely be atleast tier 3, maybe even 4. I have never played SoB so I can't comment on that.

Ivellis
27-01-2010, 04:01
I'd go like this (Possibly moving Witch Hunters up a tier):

Tier 1 (Easy to learn)
Space Marines
Black Templars
Chaos Space Marines
Space Wolves

Tier 2 (Fairly easy)
Imperial Guard
Orks
Tyranids

Tier 3 (More challenging)
Tau Empire
Dark Angels
Eldar
Necrons

Tier 4 (Steep learning curve)
Witch Hunters
Dark Eldar
Daemons
Daemonhunters

I'll be more than happy to help with this, when I first started playing I tried to find something similar, but I never found anything very helpful.

Netfreakk
27-01-2010, 05:22
Easier armies:
Toughness 4.
Vehicle availability
Better Saves
Easier to understand shock troop
Less special rules to learn
Less options to take
more models on the table (allowing more mistakes on average)

Harder armies:
Toughness 3
All infantry (on average)
Worse Saves
More finesse needed to incorporate shock troop
more special rules to learn
more options to take
less models on the table

Using these criteria I think the tiers should be like this: (granted I'm nowhere good enough to judge everything)

Tier 1 (Easy to learn)
-Space Marines [high T and Sv; most options are alright to take; average in everything thus allowing you to start learning how to do everything with least amount of memorizing]
-Orks [high T and large #s; most options are alright to take; so many models that mistakes aren't as bad; large quantities also show approximate % that the dice should roll allowing you to learn odds faster]
-Chaos Space Marines [high T and Sv; troop choices here are all decent; selections aren't terrible and not too many rules.]



Tier 2 (Fairly easy)
-Space Wolves [high T and Sv; rules are good, but more things to learn; mistakes are more forgiving as their rules will make up some of the mistakes]
-Black Templars [high T and Sv; not a lot of options which in turn allows them to memorize things faster, preferred enemies will help with their rolls, shock troop usage is point and click]
-Imperial Guard [high vehicle army will protect him from mistakes; rules will be a bother to learn, but a strong codex will pick up slack.]
-Tyranids [high T models and/or large quantities of weaker ones. Not too many rules to learn.]

Tier 3 (More challenging)
-Tau Empire [shoot and run tactics make it easy to learn (especially if using an all crisis suit army); their vehicles are good, less rules]
-Dark Angels [low model count will hurt, but they're high T and Sv; less rules to learn]
-Eldar [low T and mediocre Sv hurt; need to remember spells etc thus more memorizing; elite in one aspect of war however will make it more point and click to where he needs to go; since it is so specialized it will be difficult to master]

Tier 4 (Steep learning curve)
-Daemons [all deep strike army, causing random battles (hard enough to memorize rules, but now you might not play them and thus not learn anything; lot of random abilities that most armies won't have, thus not allowing you to learn "normal rules".]
-Daemonhunters [like DA low model count, less forgiving; high T and Sv though; you probably don't want to start learning with these guys. Granted they're really cool looking.]

Never played or seen thus cannot judge:
Witch Hunters
Dark Eldar
Necrons

all in all I think this is how it should go, but that's just my opinion. Also, people should play with what they think is cool. I know when I first started I jumped onto DA, they're not strong, but I still like using them. I did move to different armies, but I stuck it out with DA and learned things due to losing.

druchii
27-01-2010, 09:29
Easier armies:
Toughness 4.
Vehicle availability
Better Saves
Easier to understand shock troop
Less special rules to learn
Less options to take
more models on the table (allowing more mistakes on average)

Harder armies:
Toughness 3
All infantry (on average)
Worse Saves
More finesse needed to incorporate shock troop
more special rules to learn
more options to take
less models on the table

Using these criteria I think the tiers should be like this: (granted I'm nowhere good enough to judge everything)

Tier 1 (Easy to learn)
-Space Marines [high T and Sv; most options are alright to take; average in everything thus allowing you to start learning how to do everything with least amount of memorizing]
-Orks [high T and large #s; most options are alright to take; so many models that mistakes aren't as bad; large quantities also show approximate % that the dice should roll allowing you to learn odds faster]
-Chaos Space Marines [high T and Sv; troop choices here are all decent; selections aren't terrible and not too many rules.]



Tier 2 (Fairly easy)
-Space Wolves [high T and Sv; rules are good, but more things to learn; mistakes are more forgiving as their rules will make up some of the mistakes]
-Black Templars [high T and Sv; not a lot of options which in turn allows them to memorize things faster, preferred enemies will help with their rolls, shock troop usage is point and click]
-Imperial Guard [high vehicle army will protect him from mistakes; rules will be a bother to learn, but a strong codex will pick up slack.]
-Tyranids [high T models and/or large quantities of weaker ones. Not too many rules to learn.]

Tier 3 (More challenging)
-Tau Empire [shoot and run tactics make it easy to learn (especially if using an all crisis suit army); their vehicles are good, less rules]
-Dark Angels [low model count will hurt, but they're high T and Sv; less rules to learn]
-Eldar [low T and mediocre Sv hurt; need to remember spells etc thus more memorizing; elite in one aspect of war however will make it more point and click to where he needs to go; since it is so specialized it will be difficult to master]

Tier 4 (Steep learning curve)
-Daemons [all deep strike army, causing random battles (hard enough to memorize rules, but now you might not play them and thus not learn anything; lot of random abilities that most armies won't have, thus not allowing you to learn "normal rules".]
-Daemonhunters [like DA low model count, less forgiving; high T and Sv though; you probably don't want to start learning with these guys. Granted they're really cool looking.]

Never played or seen thus cannot judge:
Witch Hunters
Dark Eldar
Necrons

all in all I think this is how it should go, but that's just my opinion. Also, people should play with what they think is cool. I know when I first started I jumped onto DA, they're not strong, but I still like using them. I did move to different armies, but I stuck it out with DA and learned things due to losing.

Witch hunters are absolutely a breeze to play. Power Armor all day (on 11pt models), with the ability to go invuln at a moments notice, unmodified ld10 for 5 pts/ squad, one of the best lock up units in the game, abundant rhinos, immolators, repressors and one of the best tanks in the game (the exorcist). Coupled with the fact that the sisters just got better for showing up in the new edition you have an extremely easy army to use/play.

They should be rated on par with space marines any day of the week.

I also think necrons should be situated somewhere in the 3/4 bracket because they're just the worst army in the game at the moment. Even a stiff breeze knocks them down and ruins the rule that made their army go around. Mind you it was a BORING rule, so I don't mind that I'm not seeing many Necron players, but they're definitely hard to play well.

d

Fold
27-01-2010, 09:31
Brilliant, thank you Druchii, Laurela, Ivellis and Netfreakk!


I'll be more than happy to help with this, when I first started playing I tried to find something similar, but I never found anything very helpful.

Thanks. Don't be surprised if I drop you a PM in the near future (at least to point out the next part of this series of posts, which is likely to be "popularity") :)


Also, people should play with what they think is cool. I know when I first started I jumped onto DA, they're not strong, but I still like using them. I did move to different armies, but I stuck it out with DA and learned things due to losing.

Yep, I totally agree. "Learning Curve" is just one aspect of nine that the wizard will ask users about in order to establish the best match. Of these, three probably constitute "cool" - models, background, play style - and they can be given a higher priority if desired as well.

MystheDevourer
27-01-2010, 10:22
One should really say that they should try an army that please themselves, because if your pleasing yourself what was the point of getting into this expensive game?

Other then that I agree from my perspective that Daemons are either Tier 3 if not Tier 4 I just played against them at Nids and they were a tough one to fight against, they have so much and yet so little to chose from.

As for Nids which is my Main army. It is a Tier 3 army, you have to learn how to prioritize units and biomorphs. You also need to learn how to deploy and etc, some mistakes can cost you units needed later on.

Epicenter
27-01-2010, 10:58
Witch hunters are absolutely a breeze to play. Power Armor all day (on 11pt models), with the ability to go invuln at a moments notice, unmodified ld10 for 5 pts/ squad, one of the best lock up units in the game, abundant rhinos, immolators, repressors and one of the best tanks in the game (the exorcist). Coupled with the fact that the sisters just got better for showing up in the new edition you have an extremely easy army to use/play.

They should be rated on par with space marines any day of the week.


I'm not sure about Sisters being Space Marines in ease to play. Remember, Sisters are awful at CC at they're Toughness 3. There are some out there who think 3+ is the end-all of the situation, but it's not. They also lack lascannons, Vindicators, and Acts of Faith are not always reliable.

All that said, while I think Sisters are as easy as Space Marines to learn (Acts of Faith are not difficult to learn to use - it only takes a game or two), I think in play they're a smidge more difficult to actually play - especially if the player thinks they're "11pt Space Marines", a mistake a lot of SoB newbies make.

I think in 4th edition they were probably a Tier 3 army to play. In 5th edition, Sisters Meltas and Flamers have become really effective and suit the metagame, making them very easy to play. Grey Hunters can pretty much do everything Sisters can do for cheaper (yes, hard to believe with those "11pt Sisters" but we're still paying old Rhino prices and we have to pay for our second special weapon) and are pretty good in CC even if they don't get Counter-Attack off - I'd really say that Sisters would be in whatever Tier Space Wolves are in. So in this case, Tier 2.

Vaktathi
27-01-2010, 11:03
Eldar, as much as some like to think, aren't *that* difficult to learn to play, I'd put them upper end of 2, lower 3.

Daemons are not only hard, but very prone to good or bad luck, probably one of the hardest armies to play well if you aren't running fateweaver/bloodcrusher builds. I'd put them in 4 for sure.

IG are odd, they are very powerful, but also very prone to easily being putzed. Probably the most *breakable* army in the game if one wants to, but not very easy to learn generally. Once you do learn them, if you are playing the right build, it can be very much "point, click, obliterate", but otherwise their vulnerability and relatively static nature (valkyries aside) leaves means that they aren't very easy. On the one hand, I'd say 2 is right, on the other I want to say 3.

Xelloss
27-01-2010, 11:47
I will refer to "the way of the water warrior", a really good article done on B&C. I will now consider you have read it. If not, you know what to do.

Fire and Earth army are easy to learn : they have the option "move, assault, repeat" for the first, and "shoot it until it die" for the second. There is still room for improvement with several tactical moves available, but the simplest approach works fine, especially among average-level players. Space Marines and Orks are earth/fire (very resilient = resistance / cost, and effective in assault). IG are earth (dirtcheap, great static line shooting) but with the new 5th combat resolution they are very vulnerable to assault.
Air is less forgiving, since you generally don't have a lot of firepower or melee capacities, so you need to see where to strike the opposing army. Eldar are generally air.
The most difficult is probably water, since you need to read your opponent actions and respond accurately, and as water is multy-purpose, units are expensive and thus in numeric inferiority. Obviously it will need a better generalship. Grey Knights are water.

Most armies aren't exclusively oriented toward a single element, and each unit has its elemental affinity (shooty terminators are water, assault termies are fire, nobz bikers are undercosted water, SM squads re earth/fire, Blood claws are fire/earth, IG squads are earth, boys are fire, aspect warrior in a falcon are air, etc...)
Sister of Battle are an oddity, since they are shooty fire, and thus more difficult to handle than assaulty fire.

Cheeslord
27-01-2010, 11:54
My personal experience;- I have collected Necrons for over a year and only recently started winning at all with them. Because any build will have Warriors that you have to defend against melee (while any half-competent opponent will be trying to close assault them) I think they should be in Tier 3 (more challenging).

On the other hand Chaos Daemons is the second army I have been collecting and I have been winning with them right from the start. I think they are about right on tier 2. Or maybe I have just been lucky - surviving a round of the entire enemy army concentrating all his firepower and/or charges on just 1/2 your army does take some strategy, but universal deepstrike can allow you to correct mistakes later with more reserves and most of the army just charges and assaults all the time.

Mark.

Logan_uc
27-01-2010, 13:23
The simplest army is without doubt Space wolves, if you now the rules there units are just screming to use them a certain way, just look at grey hunters, if you can get then in short range they go in auto pilot, you just have to role the dice, and they will do you good.

Eulenspiegel
27-01-2010, 14:16
Fold, I commend your initiative, but Iīm afraid I share similar concerns to Bunnahabhainīs. The builds just vary too differently within the respective codices.

What help is a something that is based on an "average IG army" for a newbie player who loves Ogryns and wants to play an Ogryn-heavy force with Sentinel support? Can a Chaos player who fields two lash Princes show other players in his group your guide to stop them complaining ("See, Chaos isnīt a very powerful codex, your Wolves should stomp them!")?

I think itīs almost a better idea to differentiate not by codex, but by playstyle, e.g.

* Mechanized armies
* Dread / Kan armies
* unmounted infantry (close combat)
* unmounted infantry (shooting/gunline)
* -wing armies
* -zilla armies
etc.

Then, for a more detialed description, one could e.g. write that "mechanized armies are Tier 3, with Space Wolves and Eldar being the best due to bla bla, mech IG are almost towards Tier 1 when using Valkyries because bla bla ..."
See what I mean?

LKHERO
27-01-2010, 14:22
The whole thing about T3 armies being tougher to play is complete ********.

Eldar have handicapped Holofields and all kinds of cover save bonuses, psychic abilities, anti-psyker and powerful units. They're a great army in every sense of the word.

And don't even get me started on IG. T3 means nothing when everything on the field is in AV12 mech or AV14 battle tanks.

Badger[Fr]
27-01-2010, 14:56
Eldar, as much as some like to think, aren't *that* difficult to learn to play, I'd put them upper end of 2, lower 3.

Indeed. There isn't much thought to put in an army that depends on specialized squads with very reliable transports supported by the most efficient Deathstar unit in the entire game (the Seer Council).

Space Marines, on the other hand, deserve more credit, I think. While they tend to be quite forgiving to the most unskilled, it takes a brilliant general to get the best out of the versatile Tactical squads, and the combined arms tactics Vanilla Marines depend on is overall much more demanding than the rather straightforward Space Wolves and CSM style of gameplay.

Oh, and Orks should definitely be a Tier 1 army (if there is such a thing as tiers).

Fold
27-01-2010, 15:03
I think one problem here is that some of you are confusing a learning curve with the power level of the army. Some comments that make me think this include:


Eldar have handicapped Holofields and all kinds of cover save bonuses, psychic abilities, anti-psyker and powerful units. They're a great army in every sense of the word.

Yes, that's true, but arguably all of that stuff is considerably more complex to learn and get the hang of.


Can a Chaos player who fields two lash Princes show other players in his group your guide to stop them complaining ("See, Chaos isnīt a very powerful codex, your Wolves should stomp them!")?

Etc... Power is different to ease of learning. Competitiveness, in fact, will be a different category in the wizard, where I imagine both Chaos Marines and Eldar will appear quite high up the list.


I think itīs almost a better idea to differentiate not by codex, but by playstyle

I like this approach, but I don't think it can be integrated into the system I've built very easily. Playstyle is strongly represented elsewhere in the wizard. As I've said previously, I accept that there will be some assumptions that need to be made to do this by codex, and some weird armies won't fall under those assumptions. Ce la vie - I hope and trust those weird armies will be a small enough minority to not matter too much, and one consolation is that the person who is likely to want an all Ogryn and Sentinel army is a) not likely to be a complete beginner to 40k and b) not likely to put "learning curve" as a very high priority factor.

Badger[Fr]
27-01-2010, 15:07
Yes, that's true, but arguably all of that stuff is considerably more complex to learn and get the hang of.
Complex rules do not make an army hard to play. 4th Edition Necrons had some convoluted special rules, and yet were still amongst the most straightforward armies available. Currently, Eldar units such as Fire Dragons, Wave Serpents, and Seer Councils almost play by themselves.

moose
27-01-2010, 15:08
Tier 1 (Easy to learn)
Space Marines
Black Templars
Orks
Space Wolves

Tier 2 (Fairly easy)
Chaos Space Marines
Imperial Guard
Dark Angels


Tier 3 (More challenging)
Eldar
Tau Empire
Tyranids
Necrons

Tier 4 (Steep learning curve)
Dark Eldar
Witch Hunters
Daemons
Daemonhunters



'Simples'.

Moose.

Fold
27-01-2010, 15:49
Complex rules do not make an army hard to play.

No, I didn't say they did. I said they make it harder to learn. ;) Which is, after all, what this is all about. And re: your specific point on Fire Dragons: Yes, they play by themselves, if your definition of "play" is "blow something up, then get destroyed". Considering your point about combined arms tactics for Vanilla marines making them more complex, I'm surprised you don't also consider that relevant to Eldar, where combined arms is essential since most units can only do one thing.

In any case, we could debate this but it's ultimately a poll: consider your vote to move them to a lower tier counted, along with moving Marines to a higher tier (though, I think you may wind up significantly outnumbered on that point!).

Lotoc_Sabbath
27-01-2010, 17:29
Tier 1 (Easy to learn)
Space Marines
Black Templars
Chaos Space Marines
Space Wolves

Tier 2 (Fairly easy)
Imperial Guard
Necrons
Daemons
Orks

Tier 3 (More challenging)
Dark Angels
Tau Empire
Tyranids

Tier 4 (Steep learning curve)
Eldar
Dark Eldar
Witch Hunters
Daemonhunters



I think this needs a repass:

Tier 1:
Space Marine
chaos space marine
orks
Dark Angels

Tier 2:
Imperial guard
tau empire
black templars
space wolves

tier 3:
tyranids
eldar
necron
daemons

tier 4:
daemonhunters
witchhunters
dark eldar

try it like that i think that's the right way...


JAck

LKHERO
27-01-2010, 17:40
I think there should be 3 tiers for these armies Fold.

A lot of the tiers are interchanging with outdated codexii(?) that don't conform with 5th Ed anymore.

Badger[Fr]
27-01-2010, 18:03
No, I didn't say they did. I said they make it harder to learn.
They indeed make it harder to learn if you have never played 40k before, but won't be much of an issue if you can read a book and learn it by heart. Still, why do SM belong to Tier 1 when they have far more special rules and wargear items than the Eldar (a bog standard Tactical Space Marines has no less than 3 unique Special Rules, two of which have both benefits and drawbacks, and 4 wargear items)?


Considering your point about combined arms tactics for Vanilla marines making them more complex, I'm surprised you don't also consider that relevant to Eldar, where combined arms is essential since most units can only do one thing.
They can only do one thing, but do it well, whereas Space Marines tend to lack specialist units.

Still, was I to write a Tier list:

Tier 1:

CSM
SW
BT
While not necessarily stronger than the current SM book, these armies favour a straightforward and effective style of gameplay.
Orks
Should I say more? Very simple rules, and most units tend to be both cheap and efficient.

Tier 2:

Imperial Guard
Witch Hunters
Two very efficient armies, that require proper list building and a good grasp of their special rules.
Eldar
While they tend to reward good generals, I wouldn't recommand them as a beginner army. Still, their learning curve is far from being as steep as one may believe, as long as you play a mechanized build.
Space Marines
A rather forgiving army, that still requires more player input than the average SW or CSM list.
Necrons
Underpowered by 5th Edition standards, the whole army still lack subtelty IMHO.

Tier 3

Chaos Daemons
Tau
Two Codices with glaring weaknesses.
Tyranids
I have yet to play the new Nids, but it seems the army as a whole require a good deal of synergy.
DA
The weakest SM Codex by far, and very few viable builds, which are rather tricky to play.

Tier 4

Dark Eldar
They deserve their reputation.
Daemon Hunters
They used to be one of the weakest 4th Edition armies, and still are. Only the best players stand a chance with them.

Grax
27-01-2010, 20:58
TIER 1 (very easy): Space Marines, Space Wolves, Black Templar, Imperial Guard

TIER 2 (easy): Necron, Chaos Marines, Orks, Dark Angels

TIER 3 (moderate): Tau, Eldar, Tyranids

TIER 4 (hard): Witch hunters, Daemon Hunters, Chaos Daemons, Dark Eldar


I think the Imperial Guard, with its new codex, can classify as 'very easy' to learn. They can be difficult to master, but that goes for any army. Chaos Marines seem a little more difficult because it's very easy to overspend on many units, and use defilers efficiently. Dark Angels don't seem that difficult to learn (although they're not exactly 'competitive'). Tyranids can be tricky, since you have to know how to keep things within synapse effectively, and watch out for attacks that always cause instant death.

The biggest issue, as others have mentioned, is Chaos Daemons. I'm a Chaos Daemons player, and they're very difficult to master. Aside from pure daemonhunters (no indoctrined guard or marines), they're probably the most difficult army to master in the game.

Fold
27-01-2010, 22:00
Thanks all. I've compiled all the votes so far (from here and another forum - 10 per army, on average, excluding my list).

The new table follows, with average tier and, for kicks, I calculated a standard deviation to see how much disagreement there is for the placing of each army. The average deviation was 0.56, if the figure in brackets is higher than that then there is more disagreement, lower then less disagreement.

---> Tier 1
1.1 Space Marines (0.32)
1.3 Orks (0.48)
1.3 Chaos Space Marines (0.5)

---> Tier 2
1.5 Black Templars (0.53)
1.5 Space Wolves (0.53)
1.9 Imperial Guard (0.51)
2.2 Necrons (1.03)
2.3 Dark Angels (0.71)

---> Tier 3
2.5 Tyranids (0.71)
2.8 Witch Hunters (1.1)
2.9 Eldar (0.53)
3.0 Tau Empire (0.47)
3.4 Dark Eldar (0.35)

---> Tier 4
3.6 Chaos Daemons (0.65)
4.0 Daemonhunters (0.00)


I'll leave this open and keep collecting data from it until the end of the week should people want to contribute (more data of course means more accuracy).

In the mean time I'll be opening a new one to judge a different factor, which I'll link to shortly (edit: linky (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4341306))

Thank you all for your help so far.

Tourniquet
29-01-2010, 06:58
I personally think Witchhunters (as SoB) are Tier 2.
Power armour combined with great support gives them more room for screw ups when learning.

Also i would have eldar as Tier 3 verging T4. They aren't a easy army to learn with (I'm learning 5th ed rules with them so can attest to that)