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kyussinchains
30-01-2010, 22:10
so I'm not entirely sure why, but I picked up the goblin force from Skull Pass on ebay recently, I might well hunt down a couple more sets as I like the models, they're cheap, and as the new edition will be out soon, somewhat collectible :)

So I need some advice for playing a pure goblin army.... I've got a smallish skaven army (small by skaven standards anyway.... I've only got around 200 models in my army...) and I am wondering if goblins play in a similar way??

Which units are good/worthwhile, which should be avoided?

I'm happy to take trolls and giants, but I'd rather avoid orcs if at all possible.... based on 1-3 sets of skull pass goblins, what else should I add? I particularly like the warboss on spider and the boss on giant squig....

I'd like to be relatively competetive but I realise I wont be winning any tournaments any time soon :)

advice? sample lists? shopping lists?

neXus6
30-01-2010, 22:25
There really aren't any bad goblin units...or perhaps that should be there really aren't any that are worse than any other goblin unit.
:p

As it is Skull Pass you are going with that kinda takes you through the "are common goblins rubbish" discussion. Common Goblins aren't that bad, with hw+shield they get a 4+ save in combat, but Night Goblins are just so much more characterful with fanatics and netters. If you want the unit to hang about then you'll want 30+, for a support unit 21 with a musician and maybe netters/fanatics.

Goblin Cavalry, both wolves and spiders are great, small expendable low points fast cav. that can really get on your opponents nerves.

The real punch for gobbos comes from the special and rare choices. Warmachines, chariots, squigs, trolls and the giant, really its up to you what you'd like to go with.

The more random warmachines and squig hoppers are both a lot of fun and can hit hard when they work.
:D

Certainly if you make the army flexible with a good mix of everything and a few sneaky surprises (fanatics, magic...etc) they are capable of giving other balanced armies a good game but the main thing, in my opinion at least, is to cause as much chaos and comedy as possible no matter the final result.
:p

Storak
31-01-2010, 07:45
i disagree with Nexus on about everything.

4 point goblins are not a good idea. they have animosity, a Ld disadvantage and low WS. it is not by chance, that they never show up on the battlefield.

the nightgoblins with spears are nearly as bad. the best way around this, is to ask your opponent to let them count as handweapons. (i would not cut them off, with 8th edition coming in and possible changes to the weapon balance..)

trolls are not a good idea, as they require high leadership, that a goboo army can only provide, if you include skarsnik.

spider riders are good, if you take one or two units to use woods. more of them don t really work out, as the faster wolfs are simply better in open terrain.

nets make sense in units of 30+ models. below that, they are simply pretty expensive.

cheap units of 21 gobbos with bows and musician, including 1 or 2 fanatics are useful.

the powerful units for a gobbo army (doomdiver, spear chuckas and hoppers) don t come in the set.

but even with a maxed out gobbo army, don t expect to beat any competitive setup of any recent army consistently.

snottlebocket
31-01-2010, 07:56
Start with 2 giants, you're seriously going to need the stubborn, ITP, terror causing punch. Especially these days. If you're facing melee heavy armies just throw them forward and try to pound the most expensive enemy stuff into the ground. Against armies with decent ranged firepower keep your giants on your side of the table. Hide them behind a forest or building looking side aways. Any enemy units coming towards your battle line will have to pass these giants which exposes them to charges unless he deals with them. If you have enough artillery and magic on your side of the table to return fire this can be quite the conundrum.

Realize that your characters and regular units don't do much. Yes there's a lot of tricks you can pull with them. Fanatics, nets, ward swapping trickery etc. In the end the units are just plain bad and their tricks are just mischief compared to the nasty crap other armies can do to you.

With that in mind create your core to be as reliable as possible. (ie not at all but try anyway) Use the characters that are going to do jack for other purposes. For instance you're going to need dispell dice and scrolls, stick that shaman into a chariot. He's going to use up his scrolls pretty fast and after that just suicide slam him into a unit to knock off a rank or so.

You can try several shamans and a few bound spells to just pelt your enemy with low level magic while your artillery shoots. Don't expect too much damage but all you really want is to annoy him into motion. You really don't want to march across to his side.

Fast cav, fast cav, fast cav. You're going to encounter a lot of stuff you can't deal with (quickly) That means you'll learn to love your fast cavalry. Knights, monsters, enemy chariots coming your way? Park some fast cav in front of them to block and redirect their charges to delay them another turn. Bring at least 4 units of fast cav, more is useful.

Your artillery section is quite decent and cheap. Bring 2 boltthrowers and a rocklobber at least. 4 boltthrowers and a lobber if you want. Just keep blasting expensive and dangerous enemy units, keep using those fast cavalry units to buy you extra turns of shooting. Try some fanatics to keep warmachine hunters at bay.

Squighoppers are a very fun, quite usefull unit for hopping around forests taking abite out of whatever they can reach.

If you have points left over you can always add more blocks of infantry to your battleline to pad it out. They aren't super but nobody can afford to get flanked by a ranked unit of goblins either once they commit to combat.

phoenixguard09
31-01-2010, 08:13
I play High Elves most of the time and I have a lot of problems with massive, cheap and rubbish units like 50 strong Night Goblins and my friends 70 strong Skaven slaves. Yes I know its ridiculous and barely fits in his deployment zone but he is a freak.

My small elite units just can't stand up to that. So I agree with pretty much everything Snottlebocket (good name:)) said but just make your units ridiculously big. And take Fanatics and Spear Chuckas. Or take a unit or three of Orcs. I know you don't want to but they could add some much needed hittyness to your force.

Cheers

Storak
31-01-2010, 09:04
I play High Elves most of the time and I have a lot of problems with massive, cheap and rubbish units like 50 strong Night Goblins and my friends 70 strong Skaven slaves. Yes I know its ridiculous and barely fits in his deployment zone but he is a freak.

My small elite units just can't stand up to that. So I agree with pretty much everything Snottlebocket (good name:)) said but just make your units ridiculously big. And take Fanatics and Spear Chuckas. Or take a unit or three of Orcs. I know you don't want to but they could add some much needed hittyness to your force.

Cheers

this is simply false. a tiny unit of swordmasters will beat those giant units every turn. with 6 swordmasters at the front, they will kill about 7 gobbos each turn. and win combat by two (nighgobbos test against 3 then....)

and they cost the same, as those 50 nightgoblins....

snottlebocket
31-01-2010, 09:13
this is simply false. a tiny unit of swordmasters will beat those giant units every turn. with 6 swordmasters at the front, they will kill about 7 gobbos each turn. and win combat by two (nighgobbos test against 3 then....)

and they cost the same, as those 50 nightgoblins....

Well, let's assume that a unit of goblins send into combat is going to have nets, full command, a general and bsb nearby and possibly a hero in it's front rank.

That said, these are goblins we're dealing with. If I see a unit like swordmasters I don't throw infantry against them. I fire cheap chariots, magic missiles, bolts and rocks into that unit. Elves die easy if hit, why fight them in the one way where they actually have the advantage.

phoenixguard09
31-01-2010, 09:18
But I mainly use White Lions and Phoenix Guard. Plus those Swordmasters get flank charged by another unit of Goblins. And then I'm screwed. Face it, large Goblin armies can be competitive.

neXus6
31-01-2010, 09:18
I'd hardly call disagreeing with me on 2 points "almost everything" Storak .
:)

You are of course right about the 4pt common goblins, they are well over points compared to NGs these days and also right about the spears if it can be helped.

Trolls...well you are probably right again but I love variation and army character more than being competative and as such I wouldn't take a common goblin warboss just for the extra Ld. That said Ld7 stupidity isn't the worst thing in the world, with avarage luck atleast. The slight edge they have on giants is you can buy 15 wounds worth of trolls, who regenerate but are one less toughness for the cost of a giant. Sure they are far more of a risk but they also aren't large targets and if you can get them up the board your enemy will be forced to deal with them.

The pros and cons of two giants are very dependant on the army you are facing, they eat up a fair chunk of your points and are walking targets againt heavy shooting. Sometimes a single giant is okay and the extra points would probably be better spent on the likes of more artillery and fast cav.

Againt Sword Masters, one of the most powerful HtH units in the game you need to think about how to deal with them...
Snottlebocket is quite right the simple answers are shortbows, artillery, fanatics, wolf chariots or the pick of the bunch the pump wagon oh man high elves don't like pump wagons.
Aside from that flank charges, by big units after blocking or baiting with fast cav or small expendable units of gobbos, no worries.
:D

w3rm
31-01-2010, 14:16
If i had the right models i would never take shield. Shortbows are just so useful for taking potshots at the enemy and even knocking a few wounds of monsters. It only takes 1 wound to deny the enemy a rank bonus. And a 5+ save is basically useless. Anything with str 4+ is going to munch straight through them no matter what. The only time the shield is useful is against crappy horde troops which aren't going to cause many wounds anyways.

You absolutely need 2+ bolt throwers and 3+ units of fast cav in any list. Giants are a good addition too. They are great missile magnets and can even kill enemy monsters fairly easily with Thump.

Urgat
31-01-2010, 14:22
i disagree with Nexus on about everything.

4 point goblins are not a good idea. they have animosity, a Ld disadvantage and low WS. it is not by chance, that they never show up on the battlefield.

the nightgoblins with spears are nearly as bad. the best way around this, is to ask your opponent to let them count as handweapons. (i would not cut them off, with 8th edition coming in and possible changes to the weapon balance..)

trolls are not a good idea, as they require high leadership, that a goboo army can only provide, if you include skarsnik.

spider riders are good, if you take one or two units to use woods. more of them don t really work out, as the faster wolfs are simply better in open terrain.

nets make sense in units of 30+ models. below that, they are simply pretty expensive.

cheap units of 21 gobbos with bows and musician, including 1 or 2 fanatics are useful.

the powerful units for a gobbo army (doomdiver, spear chuckas and hoppers) don t come in the set.

but even with a maxed out gobbo army, don t expect to beat any competitive setup of any recent army consistently.

I don't agree with you too :p (not on all accounts though).

Common gobs, yeah, they're not very good, I've been struggling to find uses for them, and for now I've found only a marginal one, in that it can fit that very small nice of a gob unit that would be half resilient w/o racking up the net upgrade cost. So a sacrificial unit you'd want to survive for one turn.

Night gobs with spear, yeah, I agree too.

Trolls, of course, I don't :p I run my unit (4 trolls) with a hero, and yeah they fail their stupidity often. Who cares? I place them right when I deploy, they'll advance at their own pace, but i've made sure they'd get in the way of whatever I wanted them to get in the way of (read: heavy cavalry). I don't know of any player that hasn't taken the bait yet. Well, the first time at least. The next battles, they try to avoid the (rather large) unit of trolls, which messes up their battleline, and (unless fire) they spend a futile amount of firepower trying to kill them (and fail). Large troll units (preferably river trolls) rape anything they get their hands on (particularly those heavy cavalry units, going from a 1 or 2+ save to no save at all and wounded on 3 or 4+ usually comes as a shock...), and they can take immense beating (especially the river trolls, as I said). Giants, on the other hand...

spiders vs wolves, I prefer wolves, by far. Unlike yethees, spiders don't ignore impassable, just difficult and very difficult. So they'll still have to run around stuff. In the few battles I've used them, i've never found they got anything over spidey wolves. Could have been nice for surprise charges, but charging with light cav is as useful as trying to fly with a fanatic's ball.

And, her, no point going on, I agree with the rest.

Other than that: musician+bows for the light cav, a couple bow units for the ASF elves, and go magic defense heavy (staff of sorcery on shaman 1, staff of sneaky stealing on shaman 2) if your pals like to bring more than one wizard...

snottlebocket
31-01-2010, 14:54
spiders vs wolves, I prefer wolves, by far. Unlike yethees, spiders don't ignore impassable, just difficult and very difficult. So they'll still have to run around stuff. In the few battles I've used them, i've never found they got anything over spidey wolves. Could have been nice for surprise charges, but charging with light cav is as useful as trying to fly with a fanatic's ball.

I usually take both because I simply run out of deployment space. The fact that I can deploy spiders behind woods and go straight through usually means they end up covering as much ground as wolf riders in the long run.

Between Wolfriders dealing with the ground straight ahead of them and spiderriders taking care of the places where wolfriders would have had to go around, I usually manage to cover the table nicely.

kyussinchains
31-01-2010, 15:09
so how about something like this? (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4351704#post4351704)

It's a first attempt, I'd like to use as many different troop types as possible but still have at least some competetive ability... please have a look and comment, cheers!

kris.sherriff
01-02-2010, 13:56
On the common goblin discusion.

I use a unit of 30 of them with full command and find them to be quite usefull to be honest. (I said quite usefull, not the best uint ever! :p)

I like to use them as bait as they have one of the two standards that I have in my army and so people will charge them where they may not risk it against one of my really cheap night goblin blocks.

Used in that manner they don't normaly survive but with some clever deployment and a bit of movement (baring Animosity) and you can have an enemy unit where you want it to be rather than in your line where you real points are.

Kris

ghost of scubasteve
01-02-2010, 14:20
i really like sitting my spider riders at the edge of a woods with some shortbows, ive baited some stronger units to charge em and i retreat through the woods and their expensive unit gets stuck for a few turns getting out o the woods