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Rabid Bunny 666
21-05-2005, 15:01
http://uk.games-workshop.com/whitedwarf/nextissue/
rules for kill teams, does this hint that they have finished the rules and just need a test run, or is it another one of the /uk wds pagefillers?

Brimstone
21-05-2005, 15:49
The latter, the ordo Xenos are quite some time away.

t-tauri
21-05-2005, 17:46
The rules arrived in yesterday's post. The Deathwatch squads are available to Alien Hunters armies though which could be a suggestion that Alien Hunters are on the horizon.

Wonderdog
21-05-2005, 19:21
Yeh, the revised deathwatch are the mutts nuts... any guy can be a veteren, you get two special weapons per squad (including those cool assault heavy bolters) and any veteren not armed with a special weapon can have a powerfist, lightning claw/claws, or power weapon! Squad of truegrit, deepstriking powerfists! nice!

Chuck in a librarian with fear of the darkness and your laughing!

#Wonderdog

t-tauri
21-05-2005, 19:26
Chuck in a librarian with fear of the darkness and your laughing!

Unless, of course, you play Space Wolves, Dark Angels, Blood Angels or any other chapter which doesn't use codex Space Marines. The revised rules go back to the first printing of the rules so they can't be used by the non codex chapters again. Ignores the revision from CA 2003 which opened them up to all Chapters.

Killgore
21-05-2005, 21:13
Its only fair, other chapters do get special traits and new units



Its good to play ultras!

Wonderdog
21-05-2005, 21:38
Yeh, this means I can play my "deathwatch" chapter... An army with "Suffer not the alien" and "trust in your battle brothers" with Flesh over steel as a disadvantage. All lead by a tooled up Kill team.

Sorted.

#Phil

sulla
21-05-2005, 21:45
I wonder if they are 'ATSKNF' yet?...
And I wonder if the captain/librarian is still not an IC?...
And I wonder if there are any special rules for the captain to make up for the useless rule in the space marine codex? Or do we just get him at a discount?
I wonder if veterans with bolters and special ccw's can finally use special ammo?

5upr3m3 h4xx0rz
21-05-2005, 21:49
I read the article in the US white dwarf and it said that these guys can be taken in ANY imperial army, whether its blood angels, space wolves, or even imperial guard.

Baggers
21-05-2005, 22:06
As far as I know the Alien Hunters codex has not been started yet, and I don't know how long it will be before it is.

twisted_mentat
21-05-2005, 22:15
It sounds to me like they just tweaked the old AH rules for 4th ed and new Marine codex....

Wonderdog
22-05-2005, 00:19
Any model not upgraded with a special weapon or a "veteren weapon" (powerfist etc) may be given special ammo.

#Wonderdog

Stouty
22-05-2005, 01:03
One would assume ordos xenos would be damned well near the last codex to be released, at least after orks and eldar (and dark eldar?) as these are the guys they have to be taylored to beat up.

PBGhost
22-05-2005, 02:27
I'm going to pick up this issue when it comes out in Australia, but there are two questions I have.

1. Can you use them with a trait Marine army? You guys are being a bit unclear.
2. Can you still upgrade normal marines to be 'Deathwatch?'

Rabid Bunny 666
22-05-2005, 02:30
i haven't seen the rules yet, its next months one ;)

PBGhost
22-05-2005, 02:57
How is it some people are talking as though they have read it then?

Rich
22-05-2005, 11:54
The guys with subscriptions get them a week before the release date (last friday of the month) hence they have them now.

boogle
22-05-2005, 12:06
we in the Uk who subscribe get it a week before anyone else.

RE Codex Alien Hunters, it will be a while yet as they want it to be significantly different form the other 2 ordos Codexes, but haven't got round to doing much yet ASFAIK, if they do come out i would imagine Xmas 07 at the earliest

t-tauri
22-05-2005, 12:13
Any model not upgraded with a special weapon or a "veteren weapon" (powerfist etc) may be given special ammo.
Which is rather silly as you can't have a power weapon and a special ammo clip for the bolter which you use like a pistol due to True Grit.

1. Can you use them with a trait Marine army? You guys are being a bit unclear.
Yes. Anything built from the Space Marine codex. Just not from Codex:BT,SW,BA or whatever. If it's got it's own codex then it can't have Deathwatch. :mad:

2. Can you still upgrade normal marines to be 'Deathwatch?' Yes.

It still doesn't clarify if the upgraded marines get True Grit though so be prepared for that one to break out again.

boogle
22-05-2005, 12:22
well it says in the main block of rules that all Deathwatch marines get True Grit so i would imagine that individual ones in squads would as well

t-tauri
22-05-2005, 12:28
well it says in the main block of rules that all Deathwatch marines get True Grit so i would imagine that individual ones in squads would as well
That's the reasonable take. Unfortunately too many people aren't reasonable with wooly wording. By your interpretation then the upgraded Deathwatch marine can Deep Strike by the wording of the Deathwatch special rules. :)
All it would take is to say in the paragraph that for the upgrade cost you gain True Grit and the option to buy upgraded ammo. Since it doesn't say that too many are willing to assume that you pay the upgrade cost solely to get the chance to buy the special ammo.

boogle
22-05-2005, 12:47
yeah but common sense would dictate that if 1 marine can deep strike, but the rest of the squad can't then can't either

Gaebriel
22-05-2005, 13:10
So it's basically the older CA Article with references to the new Codex?

With more elaborate reference towards the Captian/Librarian entries? Do they loose a word whether those are Independent characters?

Do they get to take the new Drop pods?

- Someone who can't wait to get his hands on the article... *summons time elemental*

edit :

Hmm, and I think Codex : Alien Hunters is even more far off now, if they care to actually "FAQ" the old Deathwatch...

boogle
22-05-2005, 13:15
they are classed as independant characters

t-tauri
22-05-2005, 15:53
they are classed as independant characters
but can't leave the squad until the rest of them are dead.

boogle
22-05-2005, 15:55
which is usual for most ICs, who have retinues, as that is basically what the reat of the Kill team is

t-tauri
22-05-2005, 15:56
Do they get to take the new Drop pods?
Yes.

Hmm, and I think Codex : Alien Hunters is even more far off now, if they care to actually "FAQ" the old Deathwatch...
Don't know since Alien Hunters are specifically quoted as being able to take Kill Teams.

boogle
22-05-2005, 15:57
yeah but they are quoted in the WH book as well, so that means nowt really

Rich
24-05-2005, 10:05
Am I right in assuming that there is no new background in the article, just the older article re-printed with rules modifications?

Avian
24-05-2005, 11:18
Well, I have the new UK WD and as far as I can tell the only change from the original printing is that the Librarian is brought up to date to match the one in the SM codex. No other changes (ie. you can't use them for Space Wolves or Blood Angels, this is explicitly stated).

Wonderdog
24-05-2005, 13:51
Still, taking a 10 man squad of veterens all with truegrit powerfists or twinned lightning claws, lead by a Librarian, and deepstriking anywhere you want is gonna make a real mess of critical targets in big games. (You'd never use this setup in a normal game of course, the guys are more expensive than terminators if setup like this).

Also, the squad can now take 2 deathwatch heavy bolters or 2 special weapons. Which is nice if you want a move and fire squad (rather than close combat monsters).

The squad selection just seems a lot more flexible now. I jsut wish they'd clarified the truegrit/upgraded marine thing...

#Wonderdog

boogle
24-05-2005, 15:19
That's the reasonable take. Unfortunately too many people aren't reasonable with wooly wording. By your interpretation then the upgraded Deathwatch marine can Deep Strike by the wording of the Deathwatch special rules. :)
All it would take is to say in the paragraph that for the upgrade cost you gain True Grit and the option to buy upgraded ammo. Since it doesn't say that too many are willing to assume that you pay the upgrade cost solely to get the chance to buy the special ammo.
having read the article again, it says that ALL deathwatch have True Grit so i would say that even those in individual squads can use the skill even if the rest of the squad can't

Nystral
25-05-2005, 16:13
In the article reprint in CA:2003 it mentioned that the Kill Team can be taken by any imperial army. (specificly mentioning Sisters of Battle). As I play Sisters of Battle with no wimpy, whiny, untrusting, and frankly rather heretical Inquisitor, I was going to incoperate a Kill Team into my army. Can I no longer do this? :( Or does it keep the wording of the CA article and I still can?

Tadite
25-05-2005, 18:29
In the article reprint in CA:2003 it mentioned that the Kill Team can be taken by any imperial army. (specificly mentioning Sisters of Battle). As I play Sisters of Battle with no wimpy, whiny, untrusting, and frankly rather heretical Inquisitor, I was going to incoperate a Kill Team into my army. Can I no longer do this? :( Or does it keep the wording of the CA article and I still can?


Its says that all =I= can have this unit and specificly says Witchhunters.

Yea, I was thinking adding one. But a Cannoness is just SO much better then a 2 W Librarian with retienue...

Nystral
25-05-2005, 18:33
Its says that all =I= can have this unit and specificly says Witchhunters.

Yea, I was thinking adding one. But a Cannoness is just SO much better then a 2 W Librarian with retienue...

Which is why I'll be having both :p

Is this confirmed in the June US issue? I'll have to pick it up tonight if it is.

t-tauri
25-05-2005, 20:38
having read the article again, it says that ALL deathwatch have True Grit so i would say that even those in individual squads can use the skill even if the rest of the squad can't
I'd say that as well, but it was unclear the first time they wrote it and provoked a few arguments. I'm sure it'll start a few again.

Why they can't reword it for clarity, first when they reprinted in CA2003 and now when they revise the rules, is just beyond me. :(

StrainX
27-05-2005, 14:23
Why the hell does GW insist on never being able to make up their mind on these allied units. Now I have to set aside my Deathwatch Kill Team, and I bet as soon as the Alien Hunter's Codex comes, they'll allow yet again, all Imperial Armies to take then as allied units.

Gaebriel
27-05-2005, 15:35
Why do they include Alien hunters as an army that can take Deathwatch?
Wouldn't Alien hunters include Deathwatch Marines anyway?

Is this a prognosis on Codex Alien hunters?

Or did they just mean to have a complete listing?

Do I worry too much? :p

StrainX
28-05-2005, 07:39
Alien Hunters is a catch all term for those who kill aliens, even though the Codex Alien Hunters will most likely deal specifically with Ordo Xenos.

Either way, they need to give the Deathwatch Kill Team Allies back to all Imperial Armies, not just codex Marine chapters.

Rick_1138
28-05-2005, 22:49
Guess what im doing right now, yep, writing a new ultras list with a DW kill team and tyranic vets, expensive but so much fun to read over, however playing against my mates daemon bomb army is always a chore, fun though!

StrainX
29-05-2005, 19:13
I guess the next chance to use my Deathwatch squad won't be until the Alien Hunters codex comes out. And this is really dumb... they say only Codex chapters can use it, but with all those new make your own chapter stuff, its not as if any of the other non codex chapters are anything special. None of them really have a leg up as the Chapter Approve claims, hence denying the SW, DA, and BA of the use of Deathwatch squads yet again.

aznsk8s87
02-06-2005, 13:22
No, there's the White Dwarf article with DW squad rules.

Warlord Gnashgrod
02-06-2005, 15:01
Sorry if this has been asked & answered already earlier in this thread, but I don't have the time to look through the whole thing right now.

I was wondering if anyone knows if GW plans to put in anyrules/stats for 'Secondary' races in the Ordo Xenos book, like the Demiurg or the Hrud? This could make the book a bit more interesting. Thanks for any answers.

He Who Laughs
02-06-2005, 15:49
Sorry if this has been asked & answered already earlier in this thread, but I don't have the time to look through the whole thing right now.

I was wondering if anyone knows if GW plans to put in anyrules/stats for 'Secondary' races in the Ordo Xenos book, like the Demiurg or the Hrud? This could make the book a bit more interesting. Thanks for any answers.

Codex: Alienhunters is too far off to even bother starting to wonder whats officially in it or whats not. Not within the next 18 months at LEAST - and likely much longer than that.

But, it's always fun to speculate :D

sulla
02-06-2005, 18:52
Sorry if this has been asked & answered already earlier in this thread, but I don't have the time to look through the whole thing right now.

I was wondering if anyone knows if GW plans to put in anyrules/stats for 'Secondary' races in the Ordo Xenos book, like the Demiurg or the Hrud? This could make the book a bit more interesting. Thanks for any answers.


Codex Tau would be a more appropriate place for minor alien races IMO.

aznsk8s87
03-06-2005, 02:52
I've never heard of these "secondary races"... are they found in some of the BL books?

Warlord Gnashgrod
03-06-2005, 15:54
I've never heard of these "secondary races"... are they found in some of the BL books?

They've been mentioned here and there in the fluff. Particularly the Hrud.

Bmaxwell
03-06-2005, 17:47
that be nice to see a entire deathwacth army can't wait till ordo xenos comes out

Master Fulgrim
03-06-2005, 20:45
The Hrud are some kind of Space-Skaven. The Demiurg are some kind of Space-Gnomes/Dwarfes. They replaced the Squads, who also were a kind of Space Dwarfes. The Squats were also playable in Rogue Trader and in early 2nd Edition. But GW let them die, because they were a remain of the old WHFB in Space that Rogue Trader basicly was, and unlike other Races they had no idea to evolve them to more than the Spare Dwarfes, they actually were. And so they were eaten by the Tyrannids. But i will go on. An other race in 40k are the Slann. They are Lizardmen, like in WHFB. And then there were the Kai, A race of Weaponsmiths, that invented the Kai-Bolter and was wiped out by Chaos Spacemarines. That were all races which i had recognized aside the allready known.

Master Fulgrim

Cyberjankie
04-06-2005, 19:18
here is a cool "Species Map", mad by a german fan, but in english... there is a good list of minor races:
Map (http://www.joachim-adomeit.de/wh40k/speciesmap/map.html)

Adama
04-06-2005, 19:30
Andy Hoare is currently the designer earmarked to work on the Ordo Xenos.

He is currently working on other projects, so don't expect it for a long while.

The new rules update by Graham McNiell is just to hold everyone over. If they were getting close, there'd be no need to release it.

blitz589
07-06-2005, 01:52
wouldnt it be easier to use the ultramarines special anti-tyranid weapons, instead of waiting for alien hunters.

LO Roxxors
07-06-2005, 03:20
wouldnt it be easier to use the ultramarines special anti-tyranid weapons, instead of waiting for alien hunters.
Don't hold your breath.

aznsk8s87
07-06-2005, 10:09
The reason is the fluff. There are three branches of the Inquisition, the Ordo Xenos being one of them. Of course people will want to collect Eisenhorn's branch.

blitz589
09-06-2005, 00:47
They would have to counter so many tyranids to tau, they would probably be very good.

sulla
13-06-2005, 09:38
They would have to counter so many tyranids to tau, they would probably be very good.

Ordo xenos would not have to be better at fighting tabletop aliens than any other imperial force, in fact, they would probably be worse than most as they lack the heavy equipment of the imperial guard or the numbers of a space marine chapter (probably).

They have 3 main combat roles;
1)Observe dormant xenos
2)Develop technologies to combat xenos (in conjunction with AdMech)
3)Root out the hidden xenos

Ordo xenos would be the best force to combat xenos who lurk within human society; xenos like enslavers and genestealer cults (both of which would make perfect adversaries since they can be added to almost any army).

They would also be the perfect place to reintroduce some older 2nd edition weaponry (re-written for the 4th edition of course).

wibble
13-06-2005, 09:49
I agree. Leave the fighting of mass hordes to the 'armies' of the imperium. The very nature of an inquisitorial force is to purge unwanted ideas from the heart of the imperium, be they daemons, witches, or xenos. The Ordo Malleus are going to combat daemons who have possessed a planet's rulers, not necessarily slog it out against a travelling horde of Word Bearers.

charlie_c67
13-06-2005, 09:51
Just like Ordo hereticus wouldn't have to be better at fighting mutants or Ordo Malleus wouldn't be better at fighting daemons you mean? :rolleyes: Think it's pretty clear from the fluff that's out that the O:X ARE better at fighting orks, eldar, tau, nids etc than the average Imperial army. They're more specialised in that field whereas SM's and IG armies in general fight a broader range of foe.

sulla
13-06-2005, 18:55
Just like Ordo hereticus wouldn't have to be better at fighting mutants or Ordo Malleus wouldn't be better at fighting daemons you mean? :rolleyes: Think it's pretty clear from the fluff that's out that the O:X ARE better at fighting orks, eldar, tau, nids etc than the average Imperial army. They're more specialised in that field whereas SM's and IG armies in general fight a broader range of foe.

Which fluff?

charlie_c67
14-06-2005, 09:05
The whole Deathwatch fluff perhaps? Seeing as the are the chambers militant of the O:X.

Gaebriel
14-06-2005, 10:01
I agree with charlie_c67, the inquisitorial ordos hoard special knowledge about their respective opponents, and train their Chamber militant accordingly.

So Deathwatch would be most effective fighting aliens, similar to Grey knights fighting demons.

However, and do not forget that, a Chamber militant is build more for small surgical strikes, raids and commando actions, as opposed to full battles - not unlike Space Marine chapters. Add to that that a Chamber militant, however big in size, is strechted over the whole imperium, there won't be much more than small task forces active.

At least I'm sure that's true for Deathwatch - look at Armageddon for example. IIRC there were only one or two Deathwatch Kill Teams deployed to Armageddon.

So, yes, Deathwatch is better at fighting aliens on a toe-to-toe-basis. And the Imperial guard would be better to fight aliens in large battles - though don't forget Deathwatch would again be better at that, if deployed in sufficient numbers.

Sometimes fluff clashes with game mechanics. Both Inquisitorial Ordos and Space Marines wouldn't choose to fight open battles with equal odds on both sides, but rather try to command a time and place where they fought with an element of surprise and higher numbers on their side. The codices just try to treat all armies equally (which is okay for the games sake).

charlie_c67
14-06-2005, 10:58
Can you imagine the entire deathwatch out in force at once? Now that would be scary.

He Who Laughs
14-06-2005, 12:02
Can you imagine the entire deathwatch out in force at once? Now that would be scary.

Scary perhaps - but again maybe not. As already stated - Deathwatch are an elite group, versed in commando raids and surgical strikes - much like normal Chapters, but even more specialised.

Sending the entire Deathwatch in wouln't necesarily mean that Johnny Xenos is gonna die a horrible death - it's not their modus operandi (wow - how many times do you get to use that phrase in a conversation :D ). It'd be like sending the SAS/Commandos/SEALS/Delta Force/Ghurkas in again the Chinese Armed Forces, all arrayed on an open field of battle. The special forces all of a sudden lose the momentum behind their 'knock-out punch' - their element of surprise is gone, and such a highly-trained and highly-equipped force suddenly looks very thin on the ground. A special ops soldier dies just as quickly from a bullet than an other man.

And saying that - a Deathwatch Marine will die just as quickly as an Ultramarine will - it's just that a Deathwatch Marine costs X pts more, thus will have less buddies around.

I'm starting to get a bit of an inkling into why Codex: Alienhunters has been put on the backburner - how do you make an elite squad into a playable, balanced army?

P.S - Don't get me wrong - I'm hanging out for Codex:AH, I love the Marines in Black!

charlie_c67
14-06-2005, 14:02
Well I was thinking that, how about if it's like this, only a rough idea mind.

HQ
DW Captain or Librarian
O:X Inquisitor lord
AM high Tech priest.

Elites
DW Squad
Possibly DW Termis
O:X Inq
Something Adeptus like
New Assasain?

Troops
Skitaari
Storm Troopers
Servitors led by a tech priest
Possibly DW scouts

FA
Not too sure, Maybe souped up AM Sentinals

HS
Barrages
DW Devastators
Skitaari Heavy Weapons teams


That's just a rough idea and by no means what I think could possibly be there, just done it off the top of my head. But since O:X is gonna be quite different from the other ordo's that's possibly something to work on.

Edit: Oh and some sort of Dreadnought/Walker. Hmmmm, walkers....Adeptus Mechanicus..... Robots anyone? :D

sulla
14-06-2005, 19:31
The whole Deathwatch fluff perhaps? Seeing as the are the chambers militant of the O:X. Sure, but Guard and marines are out killing the big xenos armies every day. They have condensed down their armouries to what they know works versus those enemies. I don't doubt that deathwatch are very good at killing aliens but they are drawn from the marine population so are only as good at killing aliens as they are. So the only thing that seperates them is their equipment.

Killing hordes is not the job of the deathwatch.

TheSonOfAbbadon
14-06-2005, 19:37
Well, they were pretty good at it in the battle report shown in the same WD.

They killed about 700 pts, they were only 200pts or so.

t-tauri
14-06-2005, 19:43
Any 40k army isn't much bigger than a raiding force anyway. An Inquisitor, some stormtroopers and a kill-team or three which would make a decent sized army could easily be rationalised as an Ordo Xenos reconnaisance in force. There won't be an Epic scale Ordo Xenos force, but you can easily have a 40k army to represent the Alien Hunters.

I am hoping for Adeptus Mechanicus Explorator teams in there, though.

He Who Laughs
15-06-2005, 02:05
Well, they were pretty good at it in the battle report shown in the same WD.

They killed about 700 pts, they were only 200pts or so.


True - but they didn't take on that 700pts all in one go. That's how elite special forces/Deathwatch work- massive application of force in a small area, completely overwhelming the meagre opposition. They will reign supreme as long as they pick their targets well - which is why I think GW might be having difficulty with creating the army list, and why I don't believe it will follow the similar Codex: Ordos that are currently available (ie - funky elite slot (daemonhost/flaggellants), assassions (DC and otherwise), INQ Stormtroopers, Chamber Militant as Troops, Chmaber Militant in Termie Armour/agro femmes with 3+ to hit as Elites etc etc (mind you I'd be cool if DW got funky new hi-tech Mentor-forged Termie Armour models :evilgrin: ).

sulla
15-06-2005, 02:16
Well, they were pretty good at it in the battle report shown in the same WD.

They killed about 700 pts, they were only 200pts or so.

Of course, they did cheat to kill the fex (librarian used 2 powers in the same turn)...and they were 360pts so they killed 543pts worth if you don't count the fex.

But the thing about numbers is that they just don't have the manpower resources a normal marine chapter would have. If you lose a dozen marines in a normal chapter, you recruit more initiates from your huge recruiting pool. If an inquisitor loses a dozen deathwatch, he can't just phone the nearest chapter and order some more veterans or else. Astartes are independant organisations only nominally under inquisition control. They won't just front up with troops for no reason, there has to be a need greater than the chapters own need for those precious marines. And since they go back to their chapter after they have generally completed their mission, I can't see chapters lending them out for frivolous missions that will not acchieve much at all.

Hopefully this will be represented in the book and numbers will be limited.

I hope to see explorators, perhaps rogue traders and human kill-teams (either storm-trooper veterans of IG vets). I also hope there are experimental weapons in there. It would give the developers a chance to go back and rebalance old weapons like the c-beamer, viral weapons and the graviton gun.

Voss
15-06-2005, 05:07
Why are people linking the Adeptus Mechanicus to the Ordo:Xenos? Even if they don't follow the precise formula of the other two Ordos books, we know the elite troops normally used by the Xenos inquisitors are the Deathwatch marines. There isn't any reason to drag an entirely seperate organization in. (Especially one thats so powerful and independent in its own right as the Mechanicus).

charlie_c67
15-06-2005, 09:38
Because the AM run the explorator teams out searching the galaxy and who're most likely to run into new xenos threats?

sulla
15-06-2005, 10:38
Why are people linking the Adeptus Mechanicus to the Ordo:Xenos? Even if they don't follow the precise formula of the other two Ordos books, we know the elite troops normally used by the Xenos inquisitors are the Deathwatch marines. There isn't any reason to drag an entirely seperate organization in. (Especially one thats so powerful and independent in its own right as the Mechanicus).

Well, it's no different to having mechanicus and ecclesiarchy representatives in the IG or having Sisters in the Ordo Hereticus book (They aren't actually part of the OH after all).

Some of the key roles of the deathwatch are;
to keep watch on dormant aliens like necrons (this would bring them into contact with mechanicus explorator teams),
to catalogue and board hulks (again, mechanicus teams would co-ordinate with them to share any archeotech discovered), and
to study the enemy's technology, the better to destroy him (adeptus mechanicus Xenologists would be intimately involved in this process and would work closely with OX on experimental anti-xenos technology and also to capture alien tech to study).

So, IMO, explorator teams and mechanicus experimental weaponry would fit into Alienhunters but personally, I would hold off on skitarii and elctropriests and the like for a proper mechanicus expansion.

Sulla

sjakus
15-06-2005, 13:06
True - but they didn't take on that 700pts all in one go. That's how elite special forces/Deathwatch work- massive application of force in a small area, completely overwhelming the meagre opposition. They will reign supreme as long as they pick their targets well - which is why I think GW might be having difficulty with creating the army list, and why I don't believe it will follow the similar Codex: Ordos that are currently available

Isn't that the exact same way that 'normal' space marines operate? Having only 1.000 marines per chapter you can't really fight massive battles (that's why I don't get Epic SM as well, apart from it being a cool army. Should be more like an elite choice for Imperial armies or only entire armies in pre-heresy battles since Epic comes from pre-heresy)
Space Marines act as elite commandos as much as Deathwatch would because that's what they are.

Sjakus

Voss
15-06-2005, 20:25
explorator teams would, I expect, be able to handle small threats. For bigger ones, they'd call in the Navy/Guard/SM.
Inquisitors don't really jump in on small stuff. They're much more 'clear and present danger' types- or investigating previously identified threats. They aren't going to be on a 5 generation explorer team mission.

sulla- a representative or two is different than units. (And the Sisters slot into the small role of elite troops as the deathwatch.) I don't really agree on your roles for the deathwatch. They're space marine vets- they kill things. Detailed studies, cataloguing and long term sentry duties are things best reserved to (much) larger organizations. The comparative handful of space marines vets that the chapters are willing to fork over are going to be doing what they're best at, not spending time on long term tasks best left to servitors. I see them more as constantly being sent on specific high-value/risk missions. With some recovery time in transit to the next op.

Mountain Angel
15-06-2005, 21:15
When I heard there were new rules for Deathwatch Kill Teams my first question was could they break Immutable laws.

He Who Laughs
16-06-2005, 04:43
Firstly, welcome to the Warseer Forums Mountain Angel (or welcome back if your a refugee from ole' Portent).

The Deathwatch Kill-Teams have a Captain/Librarian as a compulsory leader (much like Justicars in Grey Knight squads) - and so by the letter of the law, yes it would be breaking Immutable rules.

But Deathwatch Kill-Teams are really one of the "images" that the Kill-Team rules try to emulate - and so as long as your opponents are happy (and they should be, as Kill-Team is supposed to be FUN) I think it'd be alright to field a Deathwatch Kill-Team as normal, just without the Captain/Librarian at the helm. Go the assault heavy bolters!!

sulla
16-06-2005, 07:44
explorator teams would, I expect, be able to handle small threats. For bigger ones, they'd call in the Navy/Guard/SM.
Inquisitors don't really jump in on small stuff. They're much more 'clear and present danger' types- or investigating previously identified threats. They aren't going to be on a 5 generation explorer team mission.

sulla- a representative or two is different than units. (And the Sisters slot into the small role of elite troops as the deathwatch.) I don't really agree on your roles for the deathwatch. They're space marine vets- they kill things. Detailed studies, cataloguing and long term sentry duties are things best reserved to (much) larger organizations. The comparative handful of space marines vets that the chapters are willing to fork over are going to be doing what they're best at, not spending time on long term tasks best left to servitors. I see them more as constantly being sent on specific high-value/risk missions. With some recovery time in transit to the next op.

I think you misunderstand inquisitors a little. It is the seemingly small actions that will draw attention from the Inquisition. Large scale events are out of their league and they would have to ask for aid from the local warmaster or chapter master.

I base my description of deathwatch duties on GW sources; The index Astartes article in particular specifies that Deathwatch do indeed 'orbit desolate worlds on the edge of the galaxy where Deathwatch Space Marines maintain a constant vigil'.

Shas'o'Fior
16-06-2005, 08:22
Possibly DW scouts


there are NO DW scouts, their an independant "group" of marines that the Ordo Xenos have "drafted" from normal Chapters that have performed heroic act and the like. thus they do not have scouts as they are not a chapter, per se. their more like a rag tag bunch of elite alien killers unified under one flag (deathwatch) just for the sake of being unified, so no 'iniciates(sp)' (scouts)

charlie_c67
16-06-2005, 11:09
However, as discussed at length on this/another thread, DW scouts are possible. They could either be marines in carapace armour a la vet scout sergeants, or similar to wolf scouts. Therefore making it a possibility along with DW Dreads or termis. Whether they'll be included or not is another question. The other factor to take into account is the fact that chapters like the remenants of the crimson fists and scythes of the emperor could conceivably all be classed as DW troops due to their fights against the orks and nids respectively.

Karhedron
16-06-2005, 11:43
Here is an interesting thought. Might chapters who have been pretty much exterminated (Scythes of the Emperor, Celestial Lions) have their remaining men inducted permenantly into the Death Watch?

charlie_c67
16-06-2005, 11:50
I see no reason why not. After all, what do you do with a chapter you're going to disband like the Crimson Fists were threatened with? As for the celestial lions, that'd make an interesting campaign where you've got to try and fight your way through to save them. Hmmm.....

t-tauri
16-06-2005, 15:36
I'd argue that there's a permanent "headquarters" staff for the Deathwatch made up of just such "leftover" marines which could include Dreadnoughts, as well as the experts in alien fighting techniques.

sulla
16-06-2005, 19:02
I'd argue that there's a permanent "headquarters" staff for the Deathwatch made up of just such "leftover" marines which could include Dreadnoughts, as well as the experts in alien fighting techniques.

...and marines who, no matter how skilled they were, just didn't 'fit' into the structure of their original chapter... the sort of 'lone wolf' type antiheroes too...

Voss
16-06-2005, 19:23
I think you misunderstand inquisitors a little. It is the seemingly small actions that will draw attention from the Inquisition. Large scale events are out of their league and they would have to ask for aid from the local warmaster or chapter master.

I base my description of deathwatch duties on GW sources; The index Astartes article in particular specifies that Deathwatch do indeed 'orbit desolate worlds on the edge of the galaxy where Deathwatch Space Marines maintain a constant vigil'.

Huh. Boring- but I also think you might be misinterpreting it a little. What if they aren't maintaining a constant vigil on that world, but rather sectors. Choosing out of the way locations so they aren't bothered by the everyday traffic/problems/etc of bustling imperial worlds. (Which aren't so much their focus of interest)

As for the above. I meant small as in trivial. Yet another random Xenos planet in need of cleansing isn't going to require an Inquisitor's personal attention, and won't involve the Deathwatch necessarily. (Unless its something like that single planet single handledly holding off a significant portion of Macharius' crusade.)

As for large scale events being out of their league... not exactly. Dealing with it alone, with handful of deathwatch, no. But being the primary hand behind all the activity- very Inquisitor. See Kryptman in particular, and plenty over others over the background. Long, galaxy spanning plots are very much in the style of certain types of Inquisitors.

Shas'o'Fior
17-06-2005, 06:24
Unless its something like that single planet single handledly holding off a significant portion of Macharius' crusade.
that happened? cool, why didnt they just exterminus the planet?


...and marines who, no matter how skilled they were, just didn't 'fit' into the structure of their original chapter... the sort of 'lone wolf' type antiheroes too...

wouldnt they just not fit into the deathwatch and go off seeking a heros death...hmm...and possibly killing lots of alien scum as he goes......on a seperate note, how does the deathwatch recover the geneseed of their fallen comrades as i don't think any of them are apothecaries....or are they..

sulla
17-06-2005, 07:52
wouldnt they just not fit into the deathwatch and go off seeking a heros death...hmm...and possibly killing lots of alien scum as he goes......on a seperate note, how does the deathwatch recover the geneseed of their fallen comrades as i don't think any of them are apothecaries....or are they..

Rule of cool. If you look at the deathwatch killteam, clearly they are based on the dirty dozen, seven samurai, rat pack etc...

And one of my deathwatch is modelled with the apothecary arm (I forget what it's called again)...so at least one deathwatch killteam recovers it's geneseed :D .

charlie_c67
17-06-2005, 09:57
Well considering how precious geneseed is viewed I really don't think they'd go to battle without any form of recovering it. Therefore you're gonna have apothcarys or some serfs who specially collect it.

philbrad2
17-06-2005, 10:59
I think Deathwatch will be represented in a couple of ways in gameplay ...

1) Ordo Xenos =I= and retinue 1 perhaps 2 DW squads, a sort of 40K meets Killteam if you catch my drift. Perhaps some IG/=I= Stormtroopers

2) As part of a larger Ordo Xenos army (probably the normal tabletop formation) The =I= his retinue leading an IG crusade, DW vets would then be assigned to allied units. Rather line the formations used against the Saruthii in the Xeno Eisenhorn novel.

3) As they are played now with alllied SM's but DW become an 0-1 Elite choice and the =I= becomes an HQ choice.

GW seems very keen to steer away from the WH/DH codex armylists which are virtually identical with SoB/GK's being virtually interchangeable in armylist. I'd love to see the Mechanicus integrated into the Codex:Xenos and I believe to an extent they will appear as some sort of alied force. Perhaps an AM CA list with the ability to field a DW killteam.

:chrome:

Voss
17-06-2005, 19:41
that happened? cool, why didnt they just exterminus the planet?


They tried. I believe they initially blocked the planetary bombardment in some way.
Its been a while since I read the bit (was it in an old guard codex?) I can't remember if they ended up destroying it, or slinking off and declared the entire system forbidden.
Of course, according to an old story, theres also a functioning STC system on a planet, but the monks guarding it managed to trick the investigation team into thinking they had nothing.
Old GW stuff has some interesting things buried in it.


philbrad- a reason for scepticism on the AdMech being tossed in: If the Xenos get a bunch of cool stuff that the other two ordos don't, they'd be the obvious choice for the best Inquisitor army... so while they might not follow the same exact formula as the other two 'dexes, they can only deviate so far.

The boyz
18-06-2005, 10:50
Yeah probably just another page filler I think. I dont think they are ready for sometime yet.