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elvinltl
02-02-2010, 13:03
There like quite a number of races out there to play with and I believe everybody have imperfect knowledge right? It is quite common for people to not understand how a certain spell, device and skill work for a certain race. Let alone special skills or items unique to a certain unit in a certain race.

Take for example.

A Necron player might probably not know about a Tyranid's play Synapse rule and the Instinctive Behaviour. He might have heard about it but he do not know the psykic skills of a Zoanthrope.

An Eldar player denying Tau Broadsuit a turn of fire simply because he declared fire on a squad of Harlequins more then 24" away.

So is it considered unsportsmanship-like to win games simply because your opponent have no idea what chessy items/skills you might have especially in tournament?

PS:*Trap card* is a parody from Yugioh. An element of surprise.

x-esiv-4c
02-02-2010, 13:09
No.
Welcome to Tournament play :)

Bassline
02-02-2010, 13:10
Just buy all codexs. Simple if you do not know what your facing your fault

Iracundus
02-02-2010, 13:12
The information is available out there and public so the issue is already avoidable. Imperfect intelligence due to either lack of resources, lack of time, or imperfect recall is going to be a risk but that already is better than real life combat against an enemy actively trying to conceal the true abilities of their forces. It is one of the risks of tournament or competitive play and has to be accepted.

"Know thy enemy..."

Hypaspist
02-02-2010, 13:14
Information is one of the most vital resources in so many walks of life.
Table-top Wargaming is no different.

If you are informed about the capabilities of your enemies, you are better equipped to defeat them.

Wallowing in your own ignorance is only likely to bring the bitter taste of defeat.
Edit: Pesky Ninjas :)

marv335
02-02-2010, 13:17
If you don't know how your opponents army works, and you lose the game, well, you've learned something.
Know your enemy as you know yourself and you shall have no fear of losing battles.

I have every codex, and read them carefully just so that sort of thing doesn't happen to me.

Saim-Hann Lord
02-02-2010, 13:20
If it's a case of your opponent not knowing what you're doing just tell them. A general blank expression or a look of confusion will be sign enough to tell him...

"My hormagaunts are within synapse therefore don't run away."

Your opponents can't be expected to know anything and everything about your army...that's your job :)

Str10_hurts
02-02-2010, 13:27
I alway's ask what is what in his army, then look at his armylist and then inquire about rules I might not know about.

This all I do before any battle starts, it just takes 2-3 mins and it makes for a smooth running of the game to.

And know your enemy! If you dont own every codex ask to borrow the ones you don't have from friends if possible.

Bunnahabhain
02-02-2010, 13:30
Completely your fault. If you don't know what your facing, then you have a problem.

Unless I am with an opponent I know well, and facing an army I know well, what I tend to do is as follows.

Ask to see their list. Any units that don't know what they do, I ask. If you know your army, it only takes a few seconds to do.--- ie vanguard veterans? "power Armoured veterans, can deep strike and assualt"

Anything that seems as If it can't be right, I'll ask to see in the codex.

No list or Codex- No game then, unless I know them, so I can trust them to be honest, and that they know the army well enough to remember stuff without the book to hand.

grissom2006
02-02-2010, 13:31
If you don't know what the other armies can and can't have then it's your own stupid fault and shouldn't be in a tournie in the first place.

Fixer
02-02-2010, 13:32
Knowledge is power. Hide it well.

primarch16
02-02-2010, 13:58
Aye, you must know you're enemy to defeat him. The only exception is when a guy has daemons or deep striking troops. Then you have to tell the apponent I think. Was funny when I played a chaos player one time, classic lash prince list, I asked him if he had any daemons or deep strikers and he was like 'maybe lol' so I was like 'well since you dont have an army list I'm pretty sure you HAVE to tell me'. He was like 'oh yeah... just one greater daemon'. Funny times. I normally wont play people who dont have a list but the army looked about right.

The only exception I think is if I'm playing a new player, like back when righteouse zeal took me into combat with my Templars, I'd always warn them that theres a chance I could assault them if I took a casualty. Crushing people because they are new to the game may teach them a lesson but they wont have a good game.

Tourniquet
02-02-2010, 14:08
Pretty new to 5th.
So i learn what i can from every game.

As mentioned Knowledge is Power.
never get beat the same way twice

And if i dont know something i just ask. most people are happily enought o explain things

Bunnahabhain
02-02-2010, 14:12
The only exception I think is if I'm playing a new player, like back when righteouse zeal took me into combat with my Templars, I'd always warn them that theres a chance I could assault them if I took a casualty.

People are very good at not listening though

I remember one game where I had 3 x 10 rough riders. My opponent was fairly new, and through terminators were invincible.

I had pointed out the rough riders, and told him what their lances do, and he still refused to shoot at them. There is no helping some people, and if they let themselves get hit by 30 cavalry....

Consolidating onwards into the land raider, with a squad with melta bombs was possibly just mean, but in 4th ed, us guard players got so very tired of people consolidating through half our army with one unit.

Lord Damocles
02-02-2010, 14:53
'Know thine enemy,
You are known to him already'
Sermon Primaris, The Ordo Xenos


It's not poor sportsmanship to not tell your opponant what all your special rules and abilities are, or what your weapons etc. do (if your opponant actually asks what an ability does, it's a different story obviously).
It's also not difficult to find this information for oneself.

Also, if you enter a tournament without knowing what armies other than your own are capable of, you deserve to get a nasty surprise...

Darthvegeta800
02-02-2010, 14:58
There like quite a number of races out there to play with and I believe everybody have imperfect knowledge right? It is quite common for people to not understand how a certain spell, device and skill work for a certain race. Let alone special skills or items unique to a certain unit in a certain race.

Take for example.

A Necron player might probably not know about a Tyranid's play Synapse rule and the Instinctive Behaviour. He might have heard about it but he do not know the psykic skills of a Zoanthrope.

An Eldar player denying Tau Broadsuit a turn of fire simply because he declared fire on a squad of Harlequins more then 24" away.

So is it considered unsportsmanship-like to win games simply because your opponent have no idea what chessy items/skills you might have especially in tournament?

PS:*Trap card* is a parody from Yugioh. An element of surprise.

A decent opponent will explain everything he does before doing so and not even mind. Really special stuff can be explained before the battle.
Don't care about Tournies, I loath them intensely but in a tournie I guess you should know your stuff.

Codsticker
02-02-2010, 15:00
Just buy all codexs. Simple if you do not know what your facing your fault

Most "serious" tournament players* I know do this, just for the simple reason of being prepared.




*They usually also happen to be massive GW fans, who snatch up just about everything GW produces.

massey
02-02-2010, 15:15
There is a difference between playing someone new and playing a random opponent. If you meet an opponent in a game store ("Hey, wanna play a game?" "Sure"), or especially in a tournament, then it's their responsibility to know what your army can do. You should of course honestly answer any questions that they have about your army ("I'm not really sure about Necrons, how does this We'll Be Back work again?"). But it's not you're responsibility to tell them what a bolter does.

If you're playing someone very new to the game, you should use it as an opportunity to teach them. In situations like that, I try to feed them info each turn. I talk my way through as I play, so that they understand what is going on ("First I make my armor saves, then I'm going to make Feel No Pain saves, because this guy here in white is an Apothecary, he's like a medic, and he gives his squad Feel No Pain. If you kill him, that will go away"). I think experienced players have a responsibility to educate new players on how the game works, especially if they haven't played a particular army before. There's no honor in slaughtering your opponent with your Genestealers when he's never played Tyranids before.

Now, I don't go as far as some and think you have to let your opponent win (that's just crazy talk), but he should come away with an understanding of why he lost. :D But if the guy plays somewhat regularly, dude is on his own.

Lord Cook
02-02-2010, 15:27
If a player asks about a specific rule or model, I will happily answer the question. But you have to ask. If you can't be bothered to make sure you know my armies rules I'm certainly not going to tell you.

Pink Horror
02-02-2010, 16:52
I wouldn't want to win a game because my opponent didn't know the rules. I understand that at a tournament, you have to play quickly, so you can't explain everything to an ignorant player, but I would consider it unsportsmanlike to deliberately try to win by hiding information that is supposed to be available to both players.

SPYDER68
02-02-2010, 16:52
If you dont know your opponets rules it is your problem..


Read other armies books to know what they can do.

Mannimarco
02-02-2010, 16:56
Im sorry im just finding this all rather odd:

I play a forgeworld list, 90% of it is identical to the guard codex, if I want to use it then I have to let my opponent read through the rules and question me on my list "whoa wait a minute, before we play whats this traitor armoured fist squad, what do they do?" "what does that apostate preacher do?" theyre the same as the guard codex "oh ok then......whats that tank with all the spikes on it?" "a spikey leman russ, its identical to the guard codex"

if you dont know any of the rules in a codex? thats your problem, suck it up and deal with it

Lord Cook
02-02-2010, 17:10
I would consider it unsportsmanlike to deliberately try to win by hiding information that is supposed to be available to both players.

But both players should know this information. I don't know how much you know about my army, so if there's something you're not familiar with I need you to ask a question about it. I won't just volunteer random information on everything just in case you didn't know before hand. There's a world of difference between "hiding" information, and assuming that if your opponent doesn't ask, they already know. See the distinction?

SPYDER68
02-02-2010, 17:12
Im sorry im just finding this all rather odd:

I play a forgeworld list, 90% of it is identical to the guard codex, if I want to use it then I have to let my opponent read through the rules and question me on my list "whoa wait a minute, before we play whats this traitor armoured fist squad, what do they do?" "what does that apostate preacher do?" theyre the same as the guard codex "oh ok then......whats that tank with all the spikes on it?" "a spikey leman russ, its identical to the guard codex"

if you dont know any of the rules in a codex? thats your problem, suck it up and deal with it

when people think a codex... they aren't talking about a FW knockoff codex that isn't used in most tourneys.

Ravenous
02-02-2010, 17:14
Its right there in the Art of War.

If you know yourself and you know your enemy your victory will not stand in doubt.
If you know yourself but not your enemy for every victory gained you will also suffer defeat.
If you know neither yourself nor your enemy you will succumb in every battle.

NightrawenII
02-02-2010, 17:24
In tourney. No, as everyone said its your bad.

In PUG, Ask and thou shall be answered.;)

Its right there in the Art of War.

If you know yourself and you know your enemy your victory will not stand in doubt.
If you know yourself but not your enemy for every victory gained you will also suffer defeat.
If you know neither yourself nor your enemy you will succumb in every battle.:mad:Too slow.

when people think a codex... they aren't talking about a FW knockoff codex that isn't used in most tourneys.I have new signature for ya'. Im not biased, I hate FW rules more than others.:angel:

SPYDER68
02-02-2010, 17:27
In tourney. No, as everyone sid its your bad.

In PUG, Ask and thou shall be answered.;)
:mad:Too slow.
I have new signature for ya'. Im not biased, I hate FW rules more than others.:angel:

There was a thread on FW armies a month or so ago, and how it depends on your area if they are even used.

and if said player that is used to using them goes to said area not using them, they cannot expect everyone to change and know the rules instantly.. or go buy the $100 books.

besides.. aren't we talking in tourneys here pretty much ? since when do many stores actually allow FW rules in tourneys ? :p

I know stores anywhere around here dont.

Badger[Fr]
02-02-2010, 17:39
I don't expect my opponents to know by heart each and every army book GW ever released (and let's not mention FW, do we?), and usually explain how my army works before the battle begins. Most people simply don't have the money nor the will to buy tens of GW books they would seldom use.

marv335
02-02-2010, 17:52
If they don't ask, their ignorance is not my problem.
I'm happy to answer any questions they may have, but they need to ask.


Never interrupt your enemy's mistakes

LKHERO
02-02-2010, 17:56
There like quite a number of races out there to play with and I believe everybody have imperfect knowledge right? It is quite common for people to not understand how a certain spell, device and skill work for a certain race. Let alone special skills or items unique to a certain unit in a certain race.

Take for example.

A Necron player might probably not know about a Tyranid's play Synapse rule and the Instinctive Behaviour. He might have heard about it but he do not know the psykic skills of a Zoanthrope.

An Eldar player denying Tau Broadsuit a turn of fire simply because he declared fire on a squad of Harlequins more then 24" away.

So is it considered unsportsmanship-like to win games simply because your opponent have no idea what chessy items/skills you might have especially in tournament?

PS:*Trap card* is a parody from Yugioh. An element of surprise.

You see.. this is very 1-Dimensional from me.

I buy all the books and read all of them so I know what I'm up against. I expect other good players to do the same. If someone asks me what this does, or what that does, I'll kindly reply. I expect them to do the same. But otherwise, I expect them to know just as much about my army because I definitely know that amount about theirs.

Knowledge is power. Use it well. (as opposed to hide)

Badger[Fr]
02-02-2010, 18:00
I buy all the books and read all of them so I know what I'm up against. I expect other good players to do the same.
So do I, but I don't expect others to be as much of a fanboy as I am. Of course, if they don't ask, they deserve to be surprised...

Darthvegeta800
02-02-2010, 18:05
WOW I hope I NEVER play with some of you.
You'd expect me to throw around money like it's nothing.
Owning all the codices is not that easy for everyone you know.
GW stuff is pricey enough as is.
Thank god my regular opponents are nice enough to explain me what their armies do...

lotrchampion
02-02-2010, 18:15
Usually when it's between my regular opponents, I'll often know their armies, and if I don't, I'll ask to have a quick flick through the book during their deployment phase. During tournaments, I'll hand my opponent my list, have a look at his, and offer to answer any questions he might have. If I don't recognise something in his list, I'll ask about it. Yes, people can be punished in game for lack of knowledge, and for me it's mainly about covering my own back in researching my opposing armies. It's not exactly hard to do be dropping by my local GW and talking to people, or flicking through forums.

Dyrnwyn
02-02-2010, 18:38
I expect my opponents to have a general grasp of what my armies can do - most vets have played enough games to know what's what in an enemy army. If it's a new player, or someone who hasn't played against Tau/Orks/Daemonhunters before, I'll happily explain what anything does, and who's equipped with what, but as has been mentioned,they have to ask, otherwise I assume they either know or don't care.

To add to that 'Gotcha!' feeling though - it can happen with no intention behind it. The burden to ask what's happening is on you, and sometimes it can hit you well before the game even starts!

A while back, as 4th ed was in it's last couple months, I went to a tourney. In the first round I played against an old guy playing Sisters of Battle. He lined up a bunch of foot slogging Sisters right in front of his jump packers during deployment. I thought it looked odd, but didn't think it was anything of note. I got first turn with my Tau, and the first thing I did was shoot at the Jump troops, like any good Tau general. His response? "You can't do that. I have a unit in front of them."
I blinked. "But I made my target priority check. That means I don't have to shoot the closest unit."
"Is that a Tau special rule?"
"No, it's right in the main rulebook under shooting..."
At this point, he frowned and reached for his rulebook. His Third Edition Rulebook. I ended up badly crushing him in that game because he had had no knowledge of 4th ed. I answered any questions he had, but trying to impart the entire main rulebook to him over the course of 40 minutes was not doable.

Sometimes, knowing the rules is your own responsibility, ad it'll bite you in the ass if you don't know them.

massey
02-02-2010, 19:04
WOW I hope I NEVER play with some of you.
You'd expect me to throw around money like it's nothing.
Owning all the codices is not that easy for everyone you know.
GW stuff is pricey enough as is.
Thank god my regular opponents are nice enough to explain me what their armies do...

Oh, I'll kindly explain what my army does. But you've got to ask. If I tell you "I'm taking Korsarro Khan, 4 bike squads, and 3 landspeeder typhoons", I figure you should understand what kind of army I'm playing. If you don't know, ask me. I'll explain if you ask. But if you appear to be a relatively competent player, I'm not going to baby talk you through the whole thing. That's just asking for trouble.

Me: "I'm shooting bolters at you."
You: "Okay."
Me: "Bolters are strength four."
You: "Yes, I know."
Me: "Okay, see these? These are dice. I roll these and they produce a number, one through six."
You: "I hate you so much."

I can't read your mind. I don't know how much you know and how much you don't. I assume that people know the general stats and equipment on common armies. "Tactical squad. It's... a tactical squad. They're in a rhino. It's... a rhino. That's a plasma gun. A normal, run of the mill plasma gun." So, you've got to ask.

Gearhead
02-02-2010, 20:39
If the opponet is new (Happens with me a lot, it's been dicided that I'm the new guy instructor), I'll explain anything and everything (except things like "now it's the movement phase!", people hate that). I was fighting an opponent who was new in town, and she did that. It was actually really irritating, since she told me the statline every time she fired a deathwind. She eventually figured out that I, indeed, remembered what it was from last turn. It's less irritating than someone who doesn't tell you anything, but if your opponent knows what something does, there's really no need to tell them again.

If they're more experianced, I'll explain how things work in relation to their army (i.e., a Devilfish is a floating rhino with better front armor, a burst cannon is a storm bolter with more Strength and an extra shot). It's quick and people understand pretty much at once. If something's odball (like Dissruption Pods), I'll explain in more detail.

If it's a tournament, I really expect them to know the rules. I'll do the above sometimes, but no more than three times a game. If you're a respectful opponent, you'll have listened and remembered by then. When Michal got back from BOLScon and told us people kept asking if his Carifexes were vehicles, I was really surprised, I really thought that every tourney player should know something like that, particularly since it's such an archetype 'nid unit.

This is more of a personal thing, but I think everyone should memorize the statline of a Marine. They're the most common opponent and the game, that by itself is useful. Pretty much any other unit can be explained by comparing them. It's a good idea to memorize the Guardsmen statline.

Pink Horror
02-02-2010, 20:39
Oh, I'll kindly explain what my army does. But you've got to ask. If I tell you "I'm taking Korsarro Khan, 4 bike squads, and 3 landspeeder typhoons", I figure you should understand what kind of army I'm playing. If you don't know, ask me. I'll explain if you ask.

There's a big difference between what your style and this:


Completely your fault. If you don't know what your facing, then you have a problem.


If you don't know what the other armies can and can't have then it's your own stupid fault and shouldn't be in a tournie in the first place.


Knowledge is power. Hide it well.


If you dont know your opponets rules it is your problem..


if you dont know any of the rules in a codex? thats your problem, suck it up and deal with it


If they don't ask, their ignorance is not my problem.

In my opinion, their ignorance is my problem, because I want to have fun, and playing against an ignorant opponent is not fun. Of course, sometimes a person will be unaware of a rule they should know, and it will be a problem. That isn't anyone's fault. But, if somehow it gets into your head that, 'OMG, this guy doesn't know (whatever rule), so now I can really nail him!' I think sportsmanship means opening your mouth. Basically, if you're thinking things like "not my problem", "suck it up", "it's your own stupid fault", "shouldn't be [here] in the first place", you are being unsportsmanlike. Those aren't the thoughts of a person who is trying to be a good sportsman.

naloth
02-02-2010, 20:49
If someone was about to do something that demonstrated an obvious lack of knowledge I might say something. I consider it good to say "hey, you realize that you have to roll sight distance for those Harlies, right?" because it's really not much fun to play the other way. If they still want to fire, great.

NightrawenII
02-02-2010, 20:57
There was a thread on FW armies a month or so ago, and how it depends on your area if they are even used.

and if said player that is used to using them goes to said area not using them, they cannot expect everyone to change and know the rules instantly.. or go buy the $100 books.

besides.. aren't we talking in tourneys here pretty much ? since when do many stores actually allow FW rules in tourneys ? :p

I know stores anywhere around here dont.
I know. I was there too.;)
I want give you a thorought-full answer, but I dont want get off-topic.

Creeping Dementia
02-02-2010, 21:19
IMO this really isn't a huge issue. Spend some good time looking through army list and tacticas on any forum, and within no time you'll know all the little tricks each army has. Getting all the Codexes is an option, but I personally am not going to spend all that cash on Dexes, I'll always get the new realeases, but it's rare for me to get older ones (eventually I'll have all of them though).

The big thing is opponents have to be willing to answer questions. IMO it is also a requirement for everyone to at least know that special rules exist, and then ask about them. If my opponent doesn't know that Drop Pods or We'll be Back are different from the main rules, then I think they should pay a little bit of attention to armies other than their own.

That being said, I'll usually give a very brief overview of how Faith works, mainly to let my opponent know that I may be interupting them to use a power during their phase. But I mainly do this because people rarely play against Sisters.

I do expect opponents (newbies are exceptions of course) to at least have heard of Markerlights, or Faith, or Jetpacks. If they don't remember specifics thats fine, I'm happy to enlighten them.

the1stpip
02-02-2010, 21:36
It certainly wouldnt be a fulfilling victory, and I personally wouldnt enjoy the win.

But other posters are right, there is no excuse for ignorance.

Gaargod
02-02-2010, 22:09
You don't need to buy all the codeces, by any means. If possible, look at the army specific special rules / special character stuff at the book in store. Then download army builder, play with a bit - that will give you the basics of what to expect from each unit. In other words, enough to know that a C'tan will walk through your TH/SS termies like they weren't even there.
Obviously, buying and studying all the dexes is the best option for knowing them. But... that be money. Read them instore, borrow from friends, whatever.

I had the issue a while ago of playing a beastmen army - something i hadn't done in a long time, nor looked at much. I spent a good 5mins at the start of the game looking at special stuff, asked my opponent a bit, and it was mostly fine (as it turned out, he was cheating/mistaken on several counts, which i would have known if i owned the dex. But that's unimportant).




However. That is different from deliberately setting a bad suprise for an opponent based on some obscure rule / oddity. I don't want to lose the battle because it turns out a particular unit has something way out of the ordinary about it - especially playing with a closed list army.

Hicks
02-02-2010, 22:18
If someone tells me he never played against an army I own, I will gladly answer any questions and will give him a general view of my army.

If someone isn't familiar with the army I use, but fought against it before, I will gladly answer any questions.

If someone deploys his army and as I ask questions I get: "your stupid for not owning the codex, suck it up I won't tell you my special rules or stats" like some people here appear to be doing... well I'll just pack up my stuff. Someone who acts like that clearly doesn't understand the meaning of fun and is a heck of a lot more likely to be a cheater (and how would I know if I can't even see the their rules) than someone who will answer questions.

MystheDevourer
03-02-2010, 01:05
My take on this subject is simple, with the New Nid codex that I love so much ^-^ there are a plenthora of rules and things that I myself have to remember and I have to show my opponent. I do nto mind this but I also have a BUNCh of units that have differnet weapons ranging from Fleshborers of the Trvigon spawned gant to the Deathspitters of my Warriors all the way to Ripper Tentecals (sp) on my Mycetic Spores so I am prone to calling out what I will need to hit and wound before i roll, I consider that a courtesy but it also helps me out a ton too.

TheMav80
03-02-2010, 01:21
Most of the responses to this are just...wow.

It get's even more annoying when, not only do you not know all the rules, but you aren't even sure what model is what.

Take the Space Wolves for example. Unless pointed out to you, it would be hard to know what everything is (at least it is hard for me to keep track of my friends stuff). Where the Wolf Lord is, which models are the Wolf Guard (I'm not even sure on the right name, the guys that you buy as a group and distribute through squads). This is with a fully painted and assembled army!

Gods help me when most of my opponents are playing with unpainted models that may or may not be what they actually look like.

trigger
03-02-2010, 01:21
I play wolves (have done for years) 90% of my mates dont have the codex , some have read it others dont really care. They ask they get told , they dont they get a nice supprise.
It should only be a OMG WTF moment once , For example i layed JOTWW on my mates carnie , the first time i had ever used it , we both read the rules as we went ... i will never be able to sneek it up on him again, he has learned and evolved.
Another mate this weekend , i used my wolves vrs his chaos , WGBL with saga of the warrior born (my charicters never change gear or sagas) ended up with 11 attacks on the charge against Karn (was very funny) ... he got a brief explanation as the fellas attacks were building up... Some thing along the lines of
Me. Right my WGBL has just killed 4 raptors , can you put a dice next to him on 4 please ?
Him, Yea sure ...why ?
Me. He has a saga , that gives him a extra attack for every model he killed last turn :D
Him. Wow ... nice , he quite hard then ...
Me. Can be , counter him with charicters ...if you get the chance.


I belive it is my responsabilerty to explain my rules as and when they come in to play , not at the start of the game. As for others buying all the codex, i dont so i dont expect others to.
Trig

elvinltl
03-02-2010, 02:40
Well... Considering that it is true that one must know your opponent well enough.

I've met some really annoying players.

*I deploy me WaveSerpent*
Opponent: What is it inside?
Me: 10 DireAvengers
Opponent: What are their stats?
Me: Stats are ....
Opponent: Do they have a champion or leader?
Me: Yes, an Exarch.
Opponent: What special skill and item does the exarch have?
Me: Dual Avenger Shriuken Catapult and Bladestorm.
Opponent: What is Bladestorm?
Me: <<Explains Bladestorm>>
Opponent: What weapon does your Waveserpent have?
Me: ... Shiurken Cannon. S6 24"
Opponent: Your Waveserpent have some special rules right?
Me: .................. Yes. It has an energy field ability in front which....

*I deploy my Pathfinders*
Opponent: They are snipers right?
Me: Yess....
Opponent: What special rules do they have?
Me: They get a 2+ bonus to any cover saves they have.
Opponent: How about their Sniper rifle? Is it the same as the regular ones?
Me No..............

Can you imagine this? .........

TheMav80
03-02-2010, 06:45
I play wolves (have done for years) 90% of my mates dont have the codex , some have read it others dont really care. They ask they get told , they dont they get a nice supprise.
It should only be a OMG WTF moment once , For example i layed JOTWW on my mates carnie , the first time i had ever used it , we both read the rules as we went ... i will never be able to sneek it up on him again, he has learned and evolved.
Another mate this weekend , i used my wolves vrs his chaos , WGBL with saga of the warrior born (my charicters never change gear or sagas) ended up with 11 attacks on the charge against Karn (was very funny) ... he got a brief explanation as the fellas attacks were building up... Some thing along the lines of
Me. Right my WGBL has just killed 4 raptors , can you put a dice next to him on 4 please ?
Him, Yea sure ...why ?
Me. He has a saga , that gives him a extra attack for every model he killed last turn :D
Him. Wow ... nice , he quite hard then ...
Me. Can be , counter him with charicters ...if you get the chance.


I belive it is my responsabilerty to explain my rules as and when they come in to play , not at the start of the game. As for others buying all the codex, i dont so i dont expect others to.
Trig

Fair enough if you get to play often enough for one game not to matter. Not everyone does.

Dag
03-02-2010, 07:01
if your with your friends, you know how they play, if your at the shop use a customer copy if your opponent wants to be a weener, if he wont explain his rules dont let him use them. period.

i play wolves and it can get hard to disdinguish models, gota agree with you on that one. I have my wolf guard with cloaks, so you can see them, or they have blatent different equipment, TH, Claws, stuff they can only have.

i always ask "have you played against the new wolves yet" in my opening, before we deploy, and if not, i give a brief explination of the classes and spec rules. makes the game faster if im like "their like scouts, but just a billion X better, and come out anywhere, and own you!" buahahhahaa..........still funny!

Scythe
03-02-2010, 07:12
In my opinion, their ignorance is my problem, because I want to have fun, and playing against an ignorant opponent is not fun. Of course, sometimes a person will be unaware of a rule they should know, and it will be a problem. That isn't anyone's fault. But, if somehow it gets into your head that, 'OMG, this guy doesn't know (whatever rule), so now I can really nail him!' I think sportsmanship means opening your mouth. Basically, if you're thinking things like "not my problem", "suck it up", "it's your own stupid fault", "shouldn't be [here] in the first place", you are being unsportsmanlike. Those aren't the thoughts of a person who is trying to be a good sportsman.

This. I play the game to get a challenge, and it definitely won't be a challenge if your opponent makes honest mistakes due to not knowing or forgetting a special rule (the Harlies Veil being an excellent example). Could be just me, but I take little pride or fun in crushing an opponent like that.

Ozybonza
03-02-2010, 07:23
I just played in a tourney using guard with Al'Rahem. I made sure to explain to everyone how he worked (ie makes his platoon outflank) BEFORE each battle. It seems it was appreciated for those that didn't know.

Sekhmet
03-02-2010, 08:16
I wouldn't want to win a game because my opponent didn't know the rules. I understand that at a tournament, you have to play quickly, so you can't explain everything to an ignorant player, but I would consider it unsportsmanlike to deliberately try to win by hiding information that is supposed to be available to both players.

I generally take my army list and codex out, place it in front of my opponent, and let him read whatever he wants, but I won't volunteer information like tactical uses of a scarab swarm or the intricacies of grand illusion.

HarveyH
03-02-2010, 08:43
Well... Considering that it is true that one must know your opponent well enough.

I've met some really annoying players.

*I deploy me WaveSerpent*
Opponent: What is it inside?
Me: 10 DireAvengers
Opponent: What are their stats?
Me: Stats are ....
Opponent: Do they have a champion or leader?
.........
Opponent: What special rules do they have?
Me: They get a 2+ bonus to any cover saves they have.
Opponent: How about their Sniper rifle? Is it the same as the regular ones?
Me No..............

Can you imagine this? .........

I have no problem imagining that... in fact, that's how I play! I don't do tournaments, but only play games with a group of friends. We don't want to spend money on all codices, and frankly can't be bothered to memorize all rules for all armies anyway. Before deployment each player quickly goes through his army, briefly explaining any special rules. Takes 15 minutes at most, and in my opinion results in a more enjoyable game.

In summary: I am one of the few voting for "No Sportsmanship".

elvinltl
03-02-2010, 08:48
This. I play the game to get a challenge, and it definitely won't be a challenge if your opponent makes honest mistakes due to not knowing or forgetting a special rule (the Harlies Veil being an excellent example). Could be just me, but I take little pride or fun in crushing an opponent like that.

So you would force your opponent to declare all his shooting targets hoping to deny as many as possible against those who are shooting against Harlequins more then 24" away?

If he is ignorant, will you allow him to switch targets or as the codex says, the unit will not be able to fire anymore during their turn. The codex is promoting foul play? lol

Zurken
03-02-2010, 09:00
You don't have to tell what everything does, but if you use something abit unordinary, like special characters is can be good to ask if your opponent know how they work and if they don't you tell them. And allways answer any question your opponent have about your army. A win against a unknowing opponent is very unsportmanship like, if have to win like that you don't deserve to win. If you are a good player you should be able to win even if your opponent knows every little detail in your codex and every common tactics of every army.
Many, if not most, tournament players around here knows most of the codexes anyway, so it wouldn't work here even if someone tried.

Scythe
03-02-2010, 15:59
So you would force your opponent to declare all his shooting targets hoping to deny as many as possible against those who are shooting against Harlequins more then 24" away?

If he is ignorant, will you allow him to switch targets or as the codex says, the unit will not be able to fire anymore during their turn. The codex is promoting foul play? lol

Seems you misunderstand my post (as I was in agreement with everything Pink Horror posted before me). I would warn an opponent the moment before he declares to shoot at a dubious target like harlequins at more than 20", or warn an opponent if he is about to shoot his S4 boltgun only unit into a T8 C'tan or something. There is no pride for me when I win because my opponent was unaware of a rule or stat.

Avian
03-02-2010, 16:09
Whenever I go to a tournament I always start off by asking my opponent if he knows the army I play. Previously, should someone answer no, I have explained to them what everything is and does, but this has taken quite a bit of time and they end up asking during the game anyway. What I have done now is to make a little card for each unit and army wide special rule and at the last tournament, when one opponent said "No, I haven't played against that army before", I just gave him the little deck of cards and told him to knock himself out.

Much simpler and he can keep the deck (or just the cards he finds relevant) by him to check up on during the game. And much less time wasted.

Cartographer
03-02-2010, 17:31
I honestly relish closed-list play, it's fun to have no idea what your opponent is fielding against you (and vice versa). Though this isn't exactly what you describe, it's always amazing to me the number of people who are only comfortable playing when they know exactly what they're up against...

Each to their own I guess.

However, victory or even just a temporay advantage as a result of my opponent's ignorance tends to sap most of the enjoyment from a game IMO. That said, I've played people who have exactly zero wish to engage in any conversation at all and rebuff any attempts on my part to strike one up; they don't get any help from me whatsoever.

LouiseDePointe
03-02-2010, 18:11
I'd make a huge distinction between a tournament game (which are 90% of the time no fun at all anyway) and a casual game. When time constraints are there, I'd understand not helping a new player out, but otherwise it just feels way too WAAC to try and pull a rule that your opponent doesn't know. Of course, if you don't know they don't know, that's not really your fault.

Here are my own personal rules/beliefs. If the player I am up against is new to the game, I'll talk him through the rules of my army, similarly if he's never played my army before. Any victory I have from someone ignorant to my rules is hardly any victory at all.

Partisan Rimmo
03-02-2010, 18:22
Interesting question.

I think it is ultimately the opponent's responsibility to be aware of what is happening and why. Obviously if you do anything with the intention to mislead, you have crossed the line and are a bad sportsman, but the idea of explaining things to the opponent doesn't work.

This is because the only logical conclusion is to tell your opponent your weaknesses, i.e. telling the opponent that whilst this unit gets a save boost for this reason, this unit over here doesn't. And once you've started doing that, you start helping them and the game ceases being competitive.

Think of it this way: Every victory occurs because the opponent has made a mistake. Every mistake is made because the opponent didn't understand something. Therefore, every game is lost because of ignorance, i.e. the opponent having an inferior tactical mind to yourself.

Unfortunately this does mean that a player who has read all the codexes has a decent advantage, but I suppose you just have to consider that to be a form of prior planning and preparation...

Starwolf
04-02-2010, 01:36
Well... Considering that it is true that one must know your opponent well enough.

I've met some really annoying players.

*I deploy me WaveSerpent*
Opponent: What is it inside?
Me: 10 DireAvengers
Opponent: What are their stats?
Me: Stats are ....
Opponent: Do they have a champion or leader?
Me: Yes, an Exarch.
Opponent: What special skill and item does the exarch have?
Me: Dual Avenger Shriuken Catapult and Bladestorm.
Opponent: What is Bladestorm?
Me: <<Explains Bladestorm>>
Opponent: What weapon does your Waveserpent have?
Me: ... Shiurken Cannon. S6 24"
Opponent: Your Waveserpent have some special rules right?
Me: .................. Yes. It has an energy field ability in front which....

*I deploy my Pathfinders*
Opponent: They are snipers right?
Me: Yess....
Opponent: What special rules do they have?
Me: They get a 2+ bonus to any cover saves they have.
Opponent: How about their Sniper rifle? Is it the same as the regular ones?
Me No..............

Can you imagine this? .........

Haha, yeah... this is me. Not quite to this extreme, but pretty close.
I have limited gameplay against many types of armies. I know what happens in each phase, and I know how the game flows, but many codex-specific rules are either brand new to me or I only have a general idea what it does.
If I'm at a tournament against an army that I rarely or never have gamed against, I very well might grill that person before the match starts. Special character #7 out of X codex? All right... time to ask some questions. Army Y that I've never played against? Again... time to ask some questions.

Poor sportsmanship? Only at friendly games. At tournament games, if they ask, they should be told.

LKHERO
04-02-2010, 01:52
I really enforce asking question because of the WYSIWYG rule.

For example: I look at my opponents Tyranid Warriors and go:
What are they?
--> They have Lash Whips, Bone Swords and Toxin Sacs.
(to myself) OK.. I do NOT want to fight those in CC.

Small things like Toxin Sacs are not really small things if you think about it.

Requiet
04-02-2010, 04:26
My group and I tend to explain special rules to each other just hanging out when we get a new dex. If we dont understand a rule in play then we just remind each other. We find its a lot more competitive knowing your opponents weaknesses and playing against them then having one person read up on your codex cause they have the money and sneak on things you didnt know. We play like a team, we help each other out, improve each others skills and have a lot of fun that way. Explaining rules hardly ruins that and we feel a lot better for it.

Occasionally we play closed list games, but only after we know what the codex generally has to throw at us special rules-wise. So even though you know that may be a Librarian, you arent quite sure what kinda mental heat hes packing. Makes it a bit more nerve wracking knowing what hes capable of and not what hes got. Makes for a really fun adrenaline game instead of just wondering wth everything is/does and getting punched in the got by a squad of melta guns that you thought were just orange smurfs jumping out of a wave serpent. ;)

shabbadoo
04-02-2010, 04:38
So is it considered unsportsmanship-like to win games simply because your opponent have no idea what chessy items/skills you might have especially in tournament?

Not at all. You don't declare a player or a win cheesy due to the stupidity of a player's opponent, and make no mistake that is is definitely stupid for one player to NOT ask how something in the the other player's army works.

:skull:

Void Reaper
04-02-2010, 04:53
I generally do a quick run through of my army before a tournament game, mentioning anything particularly unpleasant about them. In my opinion, until it comes up in game, just mentioning the generalities is sufficient. For example, you should mention to your opponent that your Avatar ignores heat based attacks and makes nearby friendlies fearless. You probably needn't tell him the Avatar's stats. I would be extremely annoyed with an opponent who told me I wasted a shot at a Harlequin unit because I was more than 24" away instead of just letting me shoot at something else, since I wouldn't do that to an opponent. Now...once you have warned the opposing player (and maybe done it a second time) that's enough. I do prefer a friendly game, where the two players aren't at each other's throats. At tournaments before, I've reminded opponents that they forgot to shoot with a unit---but if they keep forgetting, over and over, then I'll get tired of reminding them. At that point, it's them playing poorly.

Of course, you can avoid this unpleasantness to have all the Codexes and be familiar with them. (I do, but I have disposable income.) At the cost of forgetting where I put my cup of coffee or my keys, I have the gift of typically being able to remember stats and special rules after only glancing them briefly, usually enough to get me through a tourney game without catastrophically forgeting a key element of an enemy unit. And before anyone calls me out...it's not PERFECT recall...that little Avatar bit above? Yeah, I forgot it, trying as I did in one game to force a morale check on an Eldar unit near the Avatar...whoops.

In friendly games, of course, it would be the height of D-baggery to do the hyper competitive stuff.

Scythe
04-02-2010, 06:59
This is because the only logical conclusion is to tell your opponent your weaknesses, i.e. telling the opponent that whilst this unit gets a save boost for this reason, this unit over here doesn't. And once you've started doing that, you start helping them and the game ceases being competitive.

Think of it this way: Every victory occurs because the opponent has made a mistake. Every mistake is made because the opponent didn't understand something. Therefore, every game is lost because of ignorance, i.e. the opponent having an inferior tactical mind to yourself.

Each their own. It is just the way you want to win for me. When I win a game, I prefer it to be because I employed the most clever tactics in game, outmaneuvered the opponent, etc. Winning because my opponent makes a mistake by firing at those Harlequins at 30", for example, is a hollow victory for me. Yes, I won, but because I had more 'prep time', not because I outwitted my opponent. It isn't real life after all, it is a game I play for fun and to challenge my skills.
For the same reason, I would probably warn opponents if they forgot to shoot and I see it, or let them take those shots anyway. Likewise, I see little fun in just copying the most min-maxed tournament list from the internet and crushing opponents with it. But that might be just me, and is something else altogether ;). I prefer my games to be challenges.

Coasty
04-02-2010, 07:15
This is because the only logical conclusion is to tell your opponent your weaknesses, i.e. telling the opponent that whilst this unit gets a save boost for this reason, this unit over here doesn't. And once you've started doing that, you start helping them and the game ceases being competitive.


If he asks, I'll tell him. If he doesn't, then I'll assume he knows.

I see games as a narrative, not a competition. Obviously I'm trying to get one more win for my Boyz, but the whole point of it is to watch their comic antics and have fun. Winning comes a poor second to that, so I don't really care how competitive it is.

borithan
04-02-2010, 09:32
Just buy all codexs. Simple if you do not know what your facing your faultThat represents quite an investment, especially if you don't get the other armies. 15 a book, for how many books?. Well over 100 at any rate.

Its the reason why the rule at GW shops is that you bring the codex for your army (well, one of... the other being 1) for your own reference and 2) so you have to buy it in the first place, rather than sponge off a friend/download of internet/remember the rules from the codex). Its so you can show your opponent the rules for anything they don't know about and understand. Ok, maybe don't need to tell them about it until they go "Eh? Why are you doing that," but even so, things that really break the normal rules should probably be checked up before hand (things that infiltrate, for example, can probably be left alone... if they want to check things can infiltrate fine, but no reason to explain it beforehand. Things with very special rules, that are a total departure from the norm, should probably be explained).


Spend some good time looking through army list and tacticas on any forum,That's limited to those that spend their time on 40k forums. Which isn't everyone.

Eldartank
04-02-2010, 20:47
My big pet peeve is that opponent who happened to see the latest FAQ rule change that was just put up on the GW website right before he came to the game store, and waits until the middle of the game when it is most advantageous to him and crippling to you, to tell you about the new rule change.
My response to that is - he didn't bother to tell me about the rule change at the beginning of the game, therefore the rule change is not in effect for this game.

Void Reaper
04-02-2010, 21:52
Yeah, the guy without the FAQ is always annoying...and generally pretty whiny about it.

Occulto
04-02-2010, 23:13
Just buy all codexs. Simple if you do not know what your facing your fault

Why should I go the the trouble of memorising every option in the game because some twit prefers to win by exploiting my ignorance rather than by displaying superior tactics?

If I don't know what something does, I'll ask and I expect my opponent to clear it up for me. Ditto if someone doesn't know about my own army. Whether that's at the beginning of the game or halfway through, is irrelevant.

It's annoying to face a player who rushes through their list saying: "this does this, that does that, and those guys have this rule. Now that's the last you're getting out of me. If you don't remember, then tough."

But I agree it's annoying for a player to just sit there mute, until something nasty happens when they pull the ol' "well if I knew that I wouldn't have..." whinge.

ZamOne
05-02-2010, 00:33
Just download all codexs. Simple if you do not know what your facing your fault

fixed that for you, those books are expensive : /

Oh! or grab a copy of the Army Builder software, has all rules and junk for all the races.

SatireSphere
05-02-2010, 01:26
If you're unsure of how an interaction of rules works relating to your opponent's army, just ask him. I certainly wouldn't hide anything like that from my opponent.

Eldartank
05-02-2010, 01:39
Yeah, the guy without the FAQ is always annoying...and generally pretty whiny about it.

So, does that mean you're one of those bad sports who waits for the right moment in the middle of a game to spring that just-released FAQ on your opponent?

If that official rules change or FAQ has been out for a couple days or more, then it is each individual's responsibility to know about it. If you happened to be the first person to see that just-released FAQ and wait until the middle of the game to spring it on your opponent to screw him at the worst possible moment, then you are simply a bad sport and a cheater.

There is nothing "whiny" about not letting someone get away with trying to cheat. So yeah, the guy who cheats is indeed always annoying.

Void Reaper
05-02-2010, 02:26
So, does that mean you're one of those bad sports who waits for the right moment in the middle of a game to spring that just-released FAQ on your opponent?

If that official rules change or FAQ has been out for a couple days or more, then it is each individual's responsibility to know about it. If you happened to be the first person to see that just-released FAQ and wait until the middle of the game to spring it on your opponent to screw him at the worst possible moment, then you are simply a bad sport and a cheater.

There is nothing "whiny" about not letting someone get away with trying to cheat. So yeah, the guy who cheats is indeed always annoying.

No, I was saying that the guy who tries to get away with things by claiming he saw it on an FAQ somewhere---which he, coincidentaly, does not have on hand---is annoying. I wouldn't try the "I thought I saw this new FAQ thing that says my unit can do X..." unless I actually had the FAQ in question on hand to prove my point, and, definitely, I'd do it at the beginning of the game. I think we are in heated agreement. :)

The whole "if my opponent doesn't know something about my army, then he's out of luck" is pretty uncool, in my opinion. (Changing topics, by the way, not accusing you o something, Eldartank.) Not everyone can afford all the codices. Even at a tournament, I'm not interested in winning because someone didn't know my Dire Avengers had an 18" range for their catapults instead of 12"; I'd rather win because they disperse their forces, they fail to capitalize on a vulnerability in my deployment, etc etc. True, your opponent loses because he makes a mistake, and not knowing everything about my army is a mistake of his--but that's not the kind of mistake I want to win by. I'll always answer questions about my troops.

Aside from the FAQ irritations, and the occasional player who gets bent out of shape because they do something not allowed by the rules, I've had pleasant experiences at tournaments mainly because I haven't faced super rules lawyers and other beardiness.

Eldartank
05-02-2010, 05:56
No, I was saying that the guy who tries to get away with things by claiming he saw it on an FAQ somewhere---which he, coincidentaly, does not have on hand---is annoying. I wouldn't try the "I thought I saw this new FAQ thing that says my unit can do X..." unless I actually had the FAQ in question on hand to prove my point, and, definitely, I'd do it at the beginning of the game. I think we are in heated agreement. :)

The whole "if my opponent doesn't know something about my army, then he's out of luck" is pretty uncool, in my opinion. (Changing topics, by the way, not accusing you o something, Eldartank.) Not everyone can afford all the codices. Even at a tournament, I'm not interested in winning because someone didn't know my Dire Avengers had an 18" range for their catapults instead of 12"; I'd rather win because they disperse their forces, they fail to capitalize on a vulnerability in my deployment, etc etc. True, your opponent loses because he makes a mistake, and not knowing everything about my army is a mistake of his--but that's not the kind of mistake I want to win by. I'll always answer questions about my troops.

Aside from the FAQ irritations, and the occasional player who gets bent out of shape because they do something not allowed by the rules, I've had pleasant experiences at tournaments mainly because I haven't faced super rules lawyers and other beardiness.

Wow.... I REALLY BADLY misinterpreted your earlier post.... I guess we are definitely in agreement. (Feeling very sheepish.... Going to crawl under that rock now....)

:confused:

The God of Decay
05-02-2010, 06:45
No, welcome to tournaments....

Knowing is Half the Battle, GO JOE!!!

lol, i had too, i dont care if its already been said...

The Ginger Ninja
05-02-2010, 09:47
Whenever I go to a tournament I always start off by asking my opponent if he knows the army I play. Previously, should someone answer no, I have explained to them what everything is and does, but this has taken quite a bit of time and they end up asking during the game anyway. What I have done now is to make a little card for each unit and army wide special rule and at the last tournament, when one opponent said "No, I haven't played against that army before", I just gave him the little deck of cards and told him to knock himself out.

Much simpler and he can keep the deck (or just the cards he finds relevant) by him to check up on during the game. And much less time wasted.

Wow, thats actually a nice idea. I might have to use it, the amount of times I get asked what does unit X do to unit Y? also that way they won't give away tactics which I hate when my opponent does that

GavT
05-02-2010, 14:22
Wow, feel the competitive streakiness here...

There seems to be an awful lot of replies to this question that I would regard as highly unsporting. While I would not expect players to give detailed and continuous tactical advice to their opponents, I would hope that if it's clear their opponent is making a mistake because of their ignorance of the rules they would point out this error.

For example, if your opponent shoots at a Nid squad in synpase range, does some damage and says out loud 'Well, that's enough for a morale check, I'll move on to something else', would you point out the effect of the synpase rules or wait until he has concluded his shooting before illuminating him on the vagaries of Tyranid psychology? I think the reasonable thing to do would be the former.

'You should know all of your opponents' rules?'

Really? I agree that being a well-informed player certainly gives one an edge, able to plan for the foreseeable, but I think it is unreasonable for any player to demand that his opponent has to know the ins and outs of his army as well as his own. Bear in mind that many players here will have built up their collection over the years, picking up Codexes along the way. If I've been playing for a year or tweo, concentrating on collecting my army and using it, is it really an expectation that I need to buy every other codex available?

Radical idea (ties in with what Avian said) - Why not ask you opponent if they know much about the army you're playing, and if not lend them your copy of the Codex before the game for a couple of minutes, perhaps whilst pointing out the major rules mechanics that are different about your army? Isuspect that this will save you time during the game when you spring something unexpected on your adversary and they demand to see the written rules due to disbelief.

I think it is the responsibility of both players to ensure that their opponents can make informed tactical decisions.

Cheers,

GAV

Occulto
05-02-2010, 21:56
'You should know all of your opponents' rules?'

Really? I agree that being a well-informed player certainly gives one an edge, able to plan for the foreseeable, but I think it is unreasonable for any player to demand that his opponent has to know the ins and outs of his army as well as his own. Bear in mind that many players here will have built up their collection over the years, picking up Codexes along the way. If I've been playing for a year or tweo, concentrating on collecting my army and using it, is it really an expectation that I need to buy every other codex available?

Not to mention some of us do play multiple game systems.

So I'm expected to know/collect not only every 40K codex, but every WHFB book too.

That's before we even delve into specialist games and/or non-GW systems. :eek:

Void Reaper
06-02-2010, 02:30
Wow.... I REALLY BADLY misinterpreted your earlier post.... I guess we are definitely in agreement. (Feeling very sheepish.... Going to crawl under that rock now....)

:confused:

No problemo, Eldartank. I looked back at my original posting and realized my language was unclear.

S00N3R FR3AK
06-02-2010, 06:46
Friendly game I would say its unsportsmanship at least the first time. If you have already told them and they forgot it's their problem. Tourny play is different though and if they go there not knowing everything it's their bad. Though if a player cheats by skipping out on rules his opponent doesn't know(such as a eldar player not measuring for wraithsight against me) then that is cheating. But if it just helps him such as the Harlequinn rule well that's tourny play.

Phyros
06-02-2010, 06:56
Just my opinion.

I tend to feel that a little bit of "give and take" with my opponent makes for a better game and it might end up with a more favorable impression on sportsmanship. Not saying you should give the game over to the other guy, but a just few instances of saying "yeah, sure, I'll give you that."

Sigis
06-02-2010, 09:04
Personally, if my opponent is going to make a REALLY REALLY stupid choice due to him not knowing my armys unique rules or something I will ask him what that units leadership is and take a leadership test for him, and if he passes i tell him "by the way blah blah blah so you might wanna reconsider that" representing his soldiers knowing better than him. that way i dont feel guilty for winning the game because he didnt know that shooting at a fast moving skimmer is harder than normal.

Void Reaper
06-02-2010, 18:35
Personally, if my opponent is going to make a REALLY REALLY stupid choice due to him not knowing my armys unique rules or something I will ask him what that units leadership is and take a leadership test for him, and if he passes i tell him "by the way blah blah blah so you might wanna reconsider that" representing his soldiers knowing better than him. that way i dont feel guilty for winning the game because he didnt know that shooting at a fast moving skimmer is harder than normal.

Though I agree with your concept of the troops possibly knowing more than the commander (it happens on real battlefields all the time, and the indicator of many a good general in history is a willingness to trust in the abilities of proven soldiers under his command), I'd be uncomfortable rolling for an opponent, even in an informal way as you've described. If you've done this in an tournament setting and your opponent didn't notice or get upset, then fine---but I could easily see this happening:

What's your Ld?
7---Why?
No reason. (Roll 2d6)
Why did you do that?
Oh, I was rolling to see if I should tell you about my unit having a special 4+ invulnerable save that will negate most of your unit's weapons. You passed the check I rolled for you, so I told you.

Don't think I'm mocking you, as it's clear that you're attempting a balance between sportsmanship and competetiveness, which I commend (certainly better than "let them sink or swim")----but I could see it resulting in an irritated opponent.

Iracundus
06-02-2010, 23:54
Wow, feel the competitive streakiness here...


The question was about tournament play hence competitive play is to be expected. A friendly game at the local store may be different.



Really? I agree that being a well-informed player certainly gives one an edge, able to plan for the foreseeable, but I think it is unreasonable for any player to demand that his opponent has to know the ins and outs of his army as well as his own. Bear in mind that many players here will have built up their collection over the years, picking up Codexes along the way. If I've been playing for a year or tweo, concentrating on collecting my army and using it, is it really an expectation that I need to buy every other codex available?

I don't see it as unreasonable at all. It will give those that can do so an advantage, true, but since it is competitive tournament play, those that are able to take the time and effort to push that extra bit should get an advantage.

A player may choose not to be familiar with a particular army, but in doing so he runs a risk. He may never face that army in the tournament and save on the effort, but he will be unprepared for any unusual eventualities if he does.

Competitive play so competitive efforts should be rewarded. Once again, Sun Tzu's statement should be borne in mind.

If one were to talk about background, I'd actually say the majority of human armies would know very little about their enemies at all given the general attitude of the Imperium towards aliens. Only a select few are given permission to study them and this knowledge may not be widely disseminated. So Imperial Guard officers and troops having a :wtf: moment when the enemy aliens use a particular unit's abilities would actually be in character.

Occulto
07-02-2010, 00:38
I don't see it as unreasonable at all. It will give those that can do so an advantage, true, but since it is competitive tournament play, those that are able to take the time and effort to push that extra bit should get an advantage.

The problem there, is that learning to play better doesn't cost money. Maintaining an up-to-date library of codices does.

As a TO, I have an aversion to an uneven playing field that's caused by wealth (or lack thereof).

If a player has the money to buy all the books, buy the "right" units (*cough* Valkyries), pay for some pro-painter to give them an army that would score 10 on CMON - then that's just a sign they've got more money, not that they're a better player.

When people feel that money is the key to doing well at a tournament, those who don't have money simply won't turn up.

Lord Damocles
07-02-2010, 11:19
The problem there, is that learning to play better doesn't cost money. Maintaining an up-to-date library of codices does.
I think I'd have to disagree somewhat with this statement.

Knowing about the abilities etc. of armies other than your own needn't cost. There are ways to get codexes and similar publications for free (although of course we can't condone this :shifty:) or for a significant reduction (auction sites, trades etc.), there are numerous tacticas, threads, and whole sites dedicated to all armies, you can talk to players of these armies, the GW website even gives out some rules.

Learning to play better may also end up costing money to achieve. For example playing the same combination of units ad infinitum won't teach the same range of skills and tactics that using a selection of different armies/unit combinations will.

Corpse
07-02-2010, 13:06
Unsportsmanship-like.

A rule exists because it exists. Not to be used as an element of surprise.

An ambush from a scout force won't just go up and tell the enemy they can't be seen because of the terrain in the way. The terrain is obviously in the way, and that is in effect like a 'rule'.

Bothers me when people try to do this.

Dageo
08-02-2010, 17:32
WOW I hope I NEVER play with some of you.
You'd expect me to throw around money like it's nothing.
Owning all the codices is not that easy for everyone you know.
GW stuff is pricey enough as is.
Thank god my regular opponents are nice enough to explain me what their armies do...

Amen, seems to be a hell of a lot of extreme, win-at-all-cost people floating around up in here.

The only time I'd be tempted to try to win through "sneaky tricks", etc, is in a tourney (even then, there is a limit to what can and cannot be called bad sportsmanship). Any other time, I'd feel like a <inset synonym for penis here> constantly deceiving people just to get an edge.

As for all those "its your job to know all your opponents rules" people, they really should be supervised when going out in public, so they don't end up getting run over, or going blind from staring at the sun, as those people with enough time to buy, read and memorize every rule in every codex surely cannot be that familiar with the workings of the world outside their bedroom.

Remember, you play games to have.... fun! This means fun for all parties involved.

Rant over.

elvinltl
09-02-2010, 12:53
I think I'd have to disagree somewhat with this statement.

Knowing about the abilities etc. of armies other than your own needn't cost. There are ways to get codexes and similar publications for free (although of course we can't condone this :shifty:) or for a significant reduction (auction sites, trades etc.), there are numerous tacticas, threads, and whole sites dedicated to all armies, you can talk to players of these armies, the GW website even gives out some rules.

Learning to play better may also end up costing money to achieve. For example playing the same combination of units ad infinitum won't teach the same range of skills and tactics that using a selection of different armies/unit combinations will.

Torrent? lol

Back to topic. Have you guys ever been outplayed before by a master tatician or simply lost games to honest mistakes like not knowing he had this uber cheese unit that can melt your prized troops in a turn.

- Outplayed
- Making stupid strategic mistakes/moves
- Not knowing the rules (General and Racial) well enough
- His army composition is just your anathema (eg. Not bringing enough AT to face a Mechanise Army)

Unless the ability is specially designed for an element of surprise (Deep Striking or specifically stating that the opponent falling for it), not telling abilities till the very last moment is akin to hiding. It really depends on the Game Manager and the difficulty level of the tournament.

TGaunt
10-02-2010, 01:29
I think you should not bore your oponent with a long lecture about all your special rules and weapon profiles.

The information they desire, they will ask you about. The information they dont ask about usually does not interest them. If this non-information has dissadvantages for them they will learn from it.

the only exceptions are very poor choices in friendly games that are highly dependant on some special rules. for example of an oponent wants to shoot at my deathleaper with boltguns from ~20" away I'll retell them his special rules (roll for ngihtfight and half that). If they still think they will get lucky and think they are nearer to him than they already are it is their fault.

In tourneys I'd only ever tell something without beeing asked if I would want my oponent to react to the special rule in question (usually with units that project an area denial effect due to their damage output that is worth more to me than the actual damage they cause) or if the oponent was so bad/new he would have no chance regardless (and then I rather end a funny game 38:2 than a totall massacre 40:0).

Ignatum
10-02-2010, 07:04
If it's a tournament with a good prize and isn't between friends, I think it's perfectly alright. Everybody goes in knowing that the best way to play would be to know all the armies you could possible face. You've gotta do your homework. :)

On the other hand, if it's a friendly tournament (Say the prize was $35 you just pooled between yourselves) or just a friendly game in general, this is a really unsportsman thing to do. I've been tempted to (and do so) multiple times in the past, but I try to avoid it in hopes that my opponent will too. After all, it's supposed to be friendly.

Dag
10-02-2010, 07:23
before deployment i always ask, "have my played *this*army before? And do you want a rundown on my stuff"

if they say no, their problem if they forgot a rule somewhere about something.
if they ask i explain my whole army in general, and detail if they want or its important. (special characters, goob'd units*tourny only*)

otherwise just roll dice and move toys.

Curufew
10-02-2010, 14:11
I will not surprise my opponents with my units special rules. Most of the time before the start of the game, its normal practice in my gaming area for the players to introduce to each other what their army consists of and the units special rules if any

Archangel_Ruined
10-02-2010, 14:54
I'd never usually try to gain any unfair advantage in any game, but I'm human (alledgedly) and there are certain players who grate on my nerves. In the past I may have been guilty of failing to mention an invulnerable save or special rule when faced with someone who has bragged about their uber-elite playing status and belittled my carefully converted and painted marines as 'just another noob army'... Then again, if they were sharp eyed enough to notice some of my models date back to RT perhaps they wouldn't be so arrogant, and ultimately, annoying. Despite this post I am usually a very nice player, honestly. It's a hobby and a game, I think it should be fun for both players.

f2k
10-02-2010, 19:01
I used to be one of those guys who never told his opponent anything unless asked.

That changed when I was introduced to Warmachine…

Man, that game was just so chockfull of special rules… Many, that is to say: almost all, of my games ended with some weird combo.

“Ok, so now I move this model here and buff this unit which moves here and cast a spell on that unit there which now activates a special ability that lets this unit move here and… HA! Your warcaster just died. Gotcha!”

I almost gave up on Warmachine because of this. Winning games, more often than not, came down to who’d memorized the most rules and knew the most combos. It wasn't a matter of outsmarting your opponent tactically, it was a matter coming up with the game-winning combo that your opponent never saw coming. Not fun at all…

This game, as all games, is governed by rules. Purposefully withholding knowledge of these rules in order to win isn’t very sportsmanlike, is it?

PapaDoc
10-02-2010, 23:18
You can definetly be sure that your opponent won't tell you everything. Some don't it because they feel everybody knows the stats for a demolisher cannon, some forget and others to do it to spring traps. It can totally ruin the game by doing springing a trap like this. I didn't know the Doom of Malantai could do his "power" in my shooting phase as my opponent "forgot" to tell me, that cost me a lot. However you can allways be an ******* back. Your opponent can forget to shoot with some units or you can "double check" every measure he makes. He never made it into my deployment with his troops because I spent a lot of time measuring and arguing about his moves.

If you make the game unpleasant for your opponent by springing a trap, he can make it unpleasant for you back. The game requires some trust to be shared between the players and by ruining with a "trap" is not always a nice way to spend 2-3 hours. Tournament or not.

Phyros
11-02-2010, 03:36
If it's a tournament with a good prize and isn't between friends, I think it's perfectly alright.

On the other hand, if it's a friendly tournament (Say the prize was $35 you just pooled between yourselves) or just a friendly game in general, this is a really unsportsman thing to do.

So you have one set of standards for friends, and another set of standards for everyone else?

Lord Damocles
11-02-2010, 09:27
On a slightly-but-perhaps-not-really related note, while I'm willing to give details of stats/special rules etc. out to a certain extent, there is a point at which I'll not give out anything more and will simply say, 'Look in your rulebook'.
Giving out stats for every unit and every weapon every turn can also be detremental to an opponant after a while as it removes any incentive for them to actually learn these things.


So you have one set of standards for friends, and another set of standards for everyone else?
You don'y say 'Hi' to everyone in the street, do you?

Ianos
11-02-2010, 11:50
You don'y say 'Hi' to everyone in the street, do you?

No, especially when they don't even bother to say hi to me. So many times I have been in a pick-up or tournament game and my opponents just barely ask what race i play, then proceed on rolling mission and deploy first if they can. Even when i ask for details about their army and checkout their roster, they just don't give a damn about what i brought along!

Then there are the people that might be interested, but not that much. After the 18th time you tell them how a basilisk works they still want to change their move and stay in cover during your turn because they just forgot it was ap3.

Now don't get me wrong, i love explaining things and being helpful, but at some point i realise that sometimes, one just has to smash the other guy so he can learn.

CherryMan
11-02-2010, 16:05
Know your enemy and know yourself, find naught in fear for 100 battles. Know yourself but not your enemy, find level of loss and victory. Know thy enemy but not yourself, wallow in defeat every time - Sun Tzu

I read every codex from cover to back, and sadly learn most of both fluff and rules thats worth knowing... that said... I have a hard time remembering anything of "real" value in my everyday life.

Ravenous
12-02-2010, 03:42
Now don't get me wrong, i love explaining things and being helpful, but at some point i realise that sometimes, one just has to smash the other guy so he can learn.

Thats the best way to learn! You smash him, smash his pride and smash everything he loves about his army.

After losing every game he'll get the hint that his ignorance is a bad idea ;) Either that or he'll just play kids since they are on equal level.