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Mango33
03-02-2010, 15:55
Ever since I started my Lizardmen army I have wanted to know what is best to equip skirmishing skinks with; blowpipes or javelins.

It seems to me that javelins are not really worth the points because of their short range and low volume of shots compared to blowpipes, but is this a fair conclusion?

What do you think?

Ultimate Life Form
03-02-2010, 15:58
You got the right idea. However some people swear by Javelins, I don't know why...

Javelin Skinks are IMO mostly useful as redirectors in their non-skirmishing (and half as expensive) form.

N810
03-02-2010, 15:59
Last edition I would have said javelins since they get shields and can move and shoot withour penalty...
but in 7th you have to pay extra for skirmishing Javelins,
so most people go with plowpipes... for skirmishers,
and save the javelins for the skink cohorts.

Malorian
03-02-2010, 16:08
Last edition I would have said javelins since they get shields and can move and shoot withour penalty... but in 7th you have to pay extra for skirmishing Javelins,
so most people go with plowpipes... for skirmishers,
and save the javelins for the skink cohorts.

Same here. I loved my skirmishing jav skinks, but I'm simply not willing to pay for it in the new book.

Now I'm just regretting that I didn't build the jav skinks so that they could easily rank up :(

Jormi_Boced
03-02-2010, 16:13
There are advantages to both, but I think blowpipes are almost always better.

Bladelord
03-02-2010, 16:15
Blowpipes ftw.

Stumpy
04-02-2010, 01:07
Javelins are better and that's why they cost more. But then given skink skirmishers are either going to die or try and take down a big nasty, you might as well save points and use blowpipes.

Trigger36
04-02-2010, 02:07
Javelins are better and that's why they cost more. But then given skink skirmishers are either going to die or try and take down a big nasty, you might as well save points and use blowpipes.

Want to give any reasons why javelins are better? Any GOOD reasons?

Stumpy
04-02-2010, 02:32
Blowpipes- move and shoot, long range- 6+ to hit with 10 shots.
Javenlins- move and shoot, long range- 4+ to hit with 10 shots. Also much better for stand and shoot, 5+ vs 7+.
Shield for HW/shield bonus. I know skinks generally die, but it makes them much better in minor combats- war machines, fast cavalry, puppies, slaves, zombies, fliers- the sort of things skinks have a shot at beating/holding against.
I use blowpipes on skirmishers now, but last edition it was 2-3 javelins/1 blowpipe unit (for the odd giant/annoy dragons).

SabaLoth
04-02-2010, 06:08
I think both are very useful and i want to use them both but i agree with the others, i don't want to pay extra!

Syndtristleit
04-02-2010, 07:02
I almost always use blowpipes. Been playing Lizardmen for 5 years.

neXus6
04-02-2010, 09:08
I would use some of each myself for the reasons Stumpy points out.

In some situations, and they aren't that rare particularly with the right tactics, Javlins and Shields are far better.

Stumpy
04-02-2010, 10:07
Javelins and shields are better, but not really worth the extra point. That's all I was getting at.

BugsOwn
04-02-2010, 16:49
1 unit of javs is ok to go after enemy skirmishers which blowpipe skinks have trouble with.
Also good for charging war machines.
Otherwise blowpipes for the double shot!

Spirit
05-02-2010, 03:32
1 unit of javs is ok to go after enemy skirmishers which blowpipe skinks have trouble with.
Also good for charging war machines.
Otherwise blowpipes for the double shot!

this ^^

I always have 1 jav unit for skirmish hunts.

raymon
05-02-2010, 06:45
and what about the kroxigors?

Stumpy
05-02-2010, 07:14
This discussion is for skirmishers, not cohorts (as we call the ranked ones). Cohorts can only have javelins and are a different thing altogether.

Bladelord
05-02-2010, 08:15
Is it worth including a unit of 10 cohorts for skirmish shooting/warmachine hunting?

Spirit
05-02-2010, 13:28
Is it worth including a unit of 10 cohorts for skirmish shooting/warmachine hunting?

Cohorts are amazing re directers. If your thinking of using kroxigor or saurus to any good effect youl want a couple of units of them.

N810
05-02-2010, 13:40
They also make good meat shields against arrow fire ;)

Mango33
05-02-2010, 21:31
dont you only want the sixes, I mean if at range you can have 20 shoots hitting on 6's and instentaniously wounding. That could mean alot of 6's and if they are high T low AS models most will fail.

Agnar the Howler
05-02-2010, 22:10
dont you only want the sixes, I mean if at range you can have 20 shoots hitting on 6's and instentaniously wounding. That could mean alot of 6's and if they are high T low AS models most will fail.

Even high AS can fail under enough shots. In my last game on saturday, a single unit of 8 skinks (two had been nuked by a fireball) took out 4 empire knights over the course of 1 shooting phase and a stand and shoot charge reaction from the subsequent enemy charge. Sure, it might have been a one-off, but it's a taster of what they can do when given the chance (such as almost stopping a charge from two wizards and a unit of knights whilst dropping 4 of the buggers and being worth all 70 points I spent on them, they also sealed the fate of that unit but I think i've waffled on enough).

Spirit
06-02-2010, 04:03
dont you only want the sixes, I mean if at range you can have 20 shoots hitting on 6's and instentaniously wounding. That could mean alot of 6's and if they are high T low AS models most will fail.

Good luck getting that vs a skirmish unit.

4+, moved OR long range (5), 2 shots (6), skirmisher (7)

Blowpipes get 10 shots needing 7's or 20 needing 8's (remember you cant poision if you need more than 6+ to hit)

Javelins get 10 shots needing 5's and some armour! I always find something to shoot at.

Alltaken
06-02-2010, 05:02
Good luck getting that vs a skirmish unit.

4+, moved OR long range (5), 2 shots (6), skirmisher (7)

Blowpipes get 10 shots needing 7's or 20 needing 8's (remember you cant poision if you need more than 6+ to hit)

Javelins get 10 shots needing 5's and some armour! I always find something to shoot at.


Indeed but you might just go for simple shots, and hit and would on your only possibilty rather than go for 5+ then 4+ (normally) to wound again.

Necromancy Black
06-02-2010, 06:17
If they were the same price javelins would win. But for the points you pay for them it's really just not worth it imo.

Besides, my blowpipe skinks have pretty much stopped every one at my club from fielding giants.

N810
06-02-2010, 17:22
Yea poison doesn't work on rolls over 6...

BugsOwn
06-02-2010, 19:32
It is fairly obvious that given the choice of double shooting and hitting on 7s or single shooting and hitting on 6s you will indeed go with the single shot that can poison.

It is fairly silly to say that while javs are keeping the ability to poison the blowpipes are not, the only time this is the case is against skirmishers where after moving and long range you are already at 7s to hit.

As I mentioned against skirmishers you want the jabs, against all else you tend to want blowpipes because it gives you the chance to double shoot on occasion and at other times single shoot.

Even when single shooting you have 12" range as opposed to the mere 8" of javalins.

This makes a huge difference.

the other time the javs work out better is when assualting war machines, but its hard to plan for this singular role so in most cases you want to stick with about 1 unit of jav skinks for skirmishers and the rest as blowpipe.

Guard of Itza
06-02-2010, 20:06
Like every one has said. Javelins were worth it but now that they cost points it is just better to keep them on cohorts for half the price. Blowpipes really are only useful if you are in short range on not moving because otherwise you get no poison with double tap. If you are not using double tap than it is the same shot output as Javelins for one less point and worse accuracy. However, I never used skinks as shooting units, they are redirectors and shield with a shooting attack, since I have not seen a giant since the new kit came out they probably not are going to be game changing as shooters without extreme luck but they can be game changing in many non-shooting roles.


Even high AS can fail under enough shots. In my last game on saturday, a single unit of 8 skinks (two had been nuked by a fireball) took out 4 empire knights over the course of 1 shooting phase and a stand and shoot charge reaction from the subsequent enemy charge.

Nothing against you but this is a once in a hundred (most likely worse) probability, not a good example for blowpipes because the chances of this happening are really small.

Agnar the Howler
06-02-2010, 20:45
Nothing against you but this is a once in a hundred (most likely worse) probability, not a good example for blowpipes because the chances of this happening are really small.

It was an example of their potential. If you don't show what they have done in the past then people will base things off possibly bad experiences, such as 100 to 1 examples of poor shooting. True, the chances of it happening are low, but if they're your only experiences with that weapon, and your experiences with another weapon are better (even if just following their average potential) then which are you more likely to choose and use?

Even if it is 1 in 100, it gives people something to aim to achieve because they know it's possible, and by taking the weapon more often they can learn about it, learn tactics and techniques, and whilst they may not achieve large targets, it's certainly better that they're now using a weapon and experiencing a different side to it than what they saw before.

It's like taking a magic weapon that everyone claims is great, having bad experiences with it's use and never using it again because you deem it to be crap, by continuing to use it, you may find that it was just a run of bad luck and in actuality it's a good weapon, but you're not going to do that unless you can be provided with evidence that it is worth sticking with.

Guard of Itza
06-02-2010, 22:12
It was an example of their potential. If you don't show what they have done in the past then people will base things off possibly bad experiences, such as 100 to 1 examples of poor shooting. True, the chances of it happening are low, but if they're your only experiences with that weapon, and your experiences with another weapon are better (even if just following their average potential) then which are you more likely to choose and use?

Even if it is 1 in 100, it gives people something to aim to achieve because they know it's possible, and by taking the weapon more often they can learn about it, learn tactics and techniques, and whilst they may not achieve large targets, it's certainly better that they're now using a weapon and experiencing a different side to it than what they saw before.

It's like taking a magic weapon that everyone claims is great, having bad experiences with it's use and never using it again because you deem it to be crap, by continuing to use it, you may find that it was just a run of bad luck and in actuality it's a good weapon, but you're not going to do that unless you can be provided with evidence that it is worth sticking with.

Anything is possible in a game of chance, just because it is possible does not mean that it is sound strategy. I had a game where my scar vet won a challenge with a Bloodthirster, I do not now use the Scar Vet as a monster killer and my opponent still uses his Bloodthirster. I can see the idea of trying something over and over agin to see how it works but your example of their potential just seems misleading. A saurus unit with spears in two rows of six (just how I run them so I have the numbers in my head automatically) have the potential to cause twenty five wounds with a champion. This means I could potentially kill a unit of eight trolls or twelve flesh hounds, or two great unclean ones, ect. as long as the number of wounds that is needed to be caused is twenty five or under.

Just because a tactic could be based on using something in a new way is not justification of using it in that new way. Wood elves run a better mobile gun line than lizardmen can could there be something the lizardmen could add to tip the balance, yes. It could be discovered but and maybe someone should go out and find it to share this new tactic to add to the wealth of knowledge. I just think that here it would be better to share what the pros and cons of what we already know about pipes and javs. Your example is one of basing a conclusion on one good event; or one bad event from your opponents side. I would rather stay on with what odds say a skin would be good at.

Agnar the Howler
06-02-2010, 22:16
Anything is possible in a game of chance, just because it is possible does not mean that it is sound strategy

I never said to use it as a strategy. Since your post is likely based around arguing the above quoted sentence, is there any point in me reading it, as the sentence is already focussing on a different topic...

The_Bureaucrat
07-02-2010, 00:03
Nothing against you but this is a once in a hundred (most likely worse) probability, not a good example for blowpipes because the chances of this happening are really small.

Depending on the circumstances its about a 1.15% chance happening. With a 5.85% chance of killing 3 knights and a 22% chance at killing 2 knights.

-Chances of killing at least one t3 knight with 8 skinks asumming +5 to hit with javelins on one shooting phase and 5+ stand and shoot =54.28%
VS.
-Blowpipes assuming 6+ two shot shooting phase and 6+ one shot stand and shoot = 49.14%

Now if said knights are t4 than its 48.37ish vs 49.14%.

In any case even if they were free i'd have a hard time turning down those blowpipes especially when you know there is going to be some high toughness things.

(I apologize in advance if any my statistics are wrong).

Guard of Itza
07-02-2010, 00:07
Well I read the entire post before making a response regardless of wether or not I reply. This is a tactics thread. The point is in discussing strategy, not sure why you were posting at all if it was not for a strategy (I think tactics and strategy are the same). My post was about developing strategies and discussing the use of potential in creating a strategy.

Considering the actual topic of the thread if a hit goes on a skink it will probably wound so a six up save and a five up save in cc could potentially save them but the extra points in buying jav and shield could be used to just buy extra bodies (almost always better for really weak and low cost models.

Guard of Itza
07-02-2010, 00:17
Depending on the circumstances its about a 1.15% chance happening. With a 5.85% chance of killing 3 knights and a 22% chance at killing 2 knights.

-Chances of killing at least one t3 knight with 8 skinks asumming +5 to hit with javelins on one shooting phase and 5+ stand and shoot =54.28%
VS.
-Blowpipes assuming 6+ two shot shooting phase and 6+ one shot stand and shoot = 49.14%

Now if said knights are t4 than its 48.37ish vs 49.14%.

In any case even if they were free i'd have a hard time turning down those blowpipes especially when you know there is going to be some high toughness things.

(I apologize in advance if any my statistics are wrong).

I wish you could still thank (or apologize for not if you still can) because this is really useful. So my in head calc was not too far off and this is relevant to using skinks as shooters. In an ideal situation where blowpipes only need 6s to hit (harder and than one would think) one has about a 1 in 2 shot at killing a knight before getting a charge, they will die in the charge (most likely they could actually survive completely and kill eight knights but we all know that will probably not happen). So them as shooters is lost but if they are used for redirecting those knights, the role they do best, then they could make their points back.