PDA

View Full Version : Ascension of Daemons?



Cromwell Haarlock-Leth
05-02-2010, 11:30
Hello everybody!
A question I asked myself for a long time:
How, and how "high" can an "Universal Chaos" Daemon "ascend" in power?

To be clearer: I can imagine one the 4 Powers "promoting" a daemon (for exemple, Khorn promoting a succesfully head-cleaving and blood-spilling bloodletter to bloodletter alpha, then to bloodthirster).

But how can a "non-affiliated" daemon grow in power?
As a result of humans (or others) worship? Or what?
In fact, I'd like to know how CherubaŽl, who seems to have no patron (maybe Mr T., but it's not written anywhere), could have gained such a power.
And how "high" could such a daemon ascend?
Could a Daemon Prince "challenge" of the Four to take his/its place (ie: becoming him/it?)?
Could a Daemon Prince with enough cults and worshipers truly ascend, and become a Fifth Chaos Lord? Because, IMHO, there are many "dark" aspects of humans' soul that are not "covered" by the Big Four.
I genuinely have no idea of whether or not it's possible, and, if so, why it didn't happen.

Lucifer216
05-02-2010, 12:28
I guess its a question of harvesting souls, either from worshippers or dark pacts and also doing something so hideous that Chaos in general feels like it has to reward you, like massacring an entire convenent of nuns devoted to the Emperor or causing the population of an entire solar system to commit ritual suicide.

But I would argue that while it could theorectically be possible for a Daemon to ascend to the point were they are a minor chaos god, they wouldn't be able to walk up to one of the big four and challenge them for their position. My reasoning is as follows and I'll use Khorne as an example. Khorne is the Chaos God of bloodshed, anger, hate and martial pride and is the ultimate expression of these emotions because he is only made up of bloodshed, anger, hate and martial pride. If you're not Khorne, then you aren't going to be able to take his place unless you are in fact composed of only bloodshed, anger, hate and martial pride. See where I'm going?

The Gods of Chaos aren't like Neil Gaiman's Endless. There is no separation from their role and their being.

Cromwell Haarlock-Leth
05-02-2010, 12:35
I guess its a question of harvesting souls, either from worshippers or dark pacts and also doing something so hideous that Chaos in general feels like it has to reward you, like massacring an entire convenent of nuns devoted to the Emperor or causing the population of an entire solar system to commit ritual suicide.

That would mean that the Chaos is a sentient, conscious, entity by itself. Is it?



See where I'm going?
The Gods of Chaos aren't like Neil Gaiman's Endless. There is no separation from their role and their being

Yes. Since the Four are the embodiement of their "area of concern", it'impossible to find anybody that is better fit for the job. But I thought (maybe bad memories) that a Bloodthirster (can't remember its name) tried to challenge Khorn (and lose). Hence that part of the question.

Obyri
05-02-2010, 13:05
i dont think i've ever seen so many quotation marks in such a short space of time. :)

In regards to cheubael i can only give my opinion but i see chaos as a natural (although very un-natural) force with the oddity that sentience seems to be able to be borne from it. Now while the 4 big ones are uber-conglomerates or certain sentient emmotions and beliefs who can create daemons through splinters of themselves, i think other daemons can naturaly coalesce in the Empyrean without their aid and carry out their own agendas, swimming clear of the big 4 as the super-predators that they are in the warp. So something like cherubael could not be "aligned" (you've got me doing it now) but still increase its power by snacking on souls and gaining worshippers (they may see him as an aspect of tzeentch, maybe not but praise is praise).

Another way of looking at the warp as a kind of Darwinian void (ala The Three Worlds series) where it is full of predators snacking on other predators to become stronger so they can survive against even bigger predators, not strict evolution but an escalation of power to ensure your own survival. So it could be the 3 original gods began as little more than mindless deamons who became stronger and stronger and then decided to latch onto certain emmotions the sentient races were broadcasting and moulding themselves to fit the role as that particular deity. This is just my own interpretation of course and Slannesh's birth does seem at odds with it as was slowly borne of the emmotional excess of the Eldar, but again it could merely have been a powerful warp entity that found that particular stream of energy (eldar excess) and just gulped on it till it reached a critical masss point and trancended to something beyond a simple enitity.

That would explain creatures like cherubael who do not seem to have a certain alignment.

in regards to challenging the gods i would say it depends if they can be considered just a single consciousness or entity or are they merely a gestalt storm cloud of whirling emmotions. If they are in fact gods with somewhat of a singular mind or aspect in which they form, then by the mere premise of 40k i would say they can be defeated or replaced, just as they or the c'tan have destroyed or usurped other racial gods in the past.

Then again if khorne is just a roiling cloud of hate and war i don't see how an indivdual daemon could replace him.

Its all a bit higgledy piggledy (what a pair of words) but as it is all conjecture as we do not have a set of rules or princibles set in stone for how chaos and the warp interact you can never really say. Chaos by its nature seems to be a very abstract concept and thus by its definition impossible to deduce, but then again (stop contracticting yourself damnit!) if it truley is chaos then ANYTHING can happen.

Your welcome, and come by your one stop shop for genneral vagueness and confusion anytime. :)

Cromwell Haarlock-Leth
05-02-2010, 13:18
@Obyri: I'm sorry for the quotations. Since English is not my mother tongue, I sometimes used them to be sure that no one will take the words to the letter, when I'm not sure they are appropriate.

Your predators theory sounds right, and could be an good explanation.
It also means that those predators daemons could reach an status quiet equal to the Four's one, couldn'it?

Lucifer216
05-02-2010, 17:59
The trouble you then have is that the big four probably already have a monopoly on the strongest human emotions and also have no interest in sharing their power with any new competition.

For an example of the Chaos Gods trying to stop one of their number from being born, although Slaanesh's birth was fuelled by pretty much the entire Eldar empire descending into non-stop, Hellraiser eat your heart out debauchery and madness, Khorne did his level best to delay the birth for as long as possible and for a time succeeded, until Tzeentch convinced him it was futile.

The Bloodthirster (Skarbrand) that attacked Khorne was manipulated into doing so by Tzeentch and got totally wtfpwned. He was choked by Khorne until everything other than mindless rage was extinguished, had his wings ripped off and then was thrown so hard he travelled for eight days and eight nights before crashing back to what passes for the ground in the warp.

I should add that I'm not against the idea of a daemon ascending to Godhood, but I do think that reaching the same heights as the big four is impossible. I think Lorgar, Daemon Prince of the Word Bearers is a prime candidate as his ascension to daemonprincedom wasn't the result of any single entity giving him the power and he is probably more interested in the warp than even Magnus the Red (sorcery is actually insight into the words, gestures and thoughts that cause the warp to have an effect in the physical universe and does not necessarily mean a great understanding of the warp per say).

Karl MkVI
05-02-2010, 20:39
well, i know the 'universes aren't connected' and all (take from that what you will), but in WHFB, Be'lakor comes close to the chaos gods in terms of power; a fact about which they are not so happy, and thus they cast him down. simple enough!! and now, basically, his existence really, really sucks. so i dont think anyone could 'dethrone' the Big Four.

save, perhaps, a big Golden dude currently sitting in a chair, if you believe that particular theory...

Xeno
06-02-2010, 16:23
/rant

Is it possible that we're forgetting what the warp is? Don't forget that chaos is, well, chaos, and anything can happen.

Heres my Theory:

Though, it is true that the big KNTS have a monopoly over practically everything, I'd think it would be possible, however improbable, that another un-aligned daemon could defeat, lets say, Slaanesh by using powers and strategies on it with nothing to do with indulgence or perfection, in other words, fighting it on your own terms and defeating it. When Slaanesh dies, you instantly take its place.

From that point I guess you'd either become the manifestation of dark pleasure and perfection, or all Slaanesh followers would follow whatever you represent instead, they're souls belonging to you now.


Also, there are the other dark parts of the human soul, like pure destructiveness (not khornate bloodletting and killing, more like imploding worlds and wrecking century old fine art/antiques) and sheer evilness (I dunno, like wanting the worst for everyone?) that could manifest some pretty big nasties in the warp.

Another thing: If emotions create warp beings, why aren't there any daemons of hope, or boredom (you know, the average citizen and endless work shifts) or etc

Lastly, with trillions of people following him religiously, why hasn't the emperor become completely almighty yet?

Good first post, eh?

/endrant

Idaan
06-02-2010, 16:43
well, i know the 'universes aren't connected' and all (take from that what you will)

But the universes ARE connected, the Warp is the same in both. What's being debated is if they're parallel universes (a la Marvel & DC) or if WFB is just a planet in 40k.

Obyri
07-02-2010, 10:34
/rant

Is it possible that we're forgetting what the warp is? Don't forget that chaos is, well, chaos, and anything can happen.

Heres my Theory:

Though, it is true that the big KNTS have a monopoly over practically everything, I'd think it would be possible, however improbable, that another un-aligned daemon could defeat, lets say, Slaanesh by using powers and strategies on it with nothing to do with indulgence or perfection, in other words, fighting it on your own terms and defeating it. When Slaanesh dies, you instantly take its place.

From that point I guess you'd either become the manifestation of dark pleasure and perfection, or all Slaanesh followers would follow whatever you represent instead, they're souls belonging to you now.


Also, there are the other dark parts of the human soul, like pure destructiveness (not khornate bloodletting and killing, more like imploding worlds and wrecking century old fine art/antiques) and sheer evilness (I dunno, like wanting the worst for everyone?) that could manifest some pretty big nasties in the warp.

Another thing: If emotions create warp beings, why aren't there any daemons of hope, or boredom (you know, the average citizen and endless work shifts) or etc

Lastly, with trillions of people following him religiously, why hasn't the emperor become completely almighty yet?

Good first post, eh?

/endrant


I do agree and the ideas of a daemon of hope (or angels :)) has been considered before and the answer is mainly we just don't know. It can be argued that the 4 big un's basically cover every gammit of emmotions (even if in an abstract way ALA Tzeentch = Hope) and so that nothing can simply find one untappped emmotion in the ether as they all go to the big 4.

Another thing to consider is, as i stated previously we can and never will now the true form of the chaos gods, but who's to say that if at the peak their is a single daemon / god running that particular department of hell then they haven't been killed and supplanted millions of times throughout universal history - just that once the king is dead the new one replaces him and long live the king. This is more if you consider the 4 big uns to be more along the lines of concepts or ideas - so the big bad daemon of slaneesh gets killed and replaced by another but still eschews the same philosphy and ideals so theres no difference to us mortals.

I really can't see khorne as an individual creature sat on a skull throne somewhere in the warp bellowing incessently much to everyone eles annoyance. Perhaps their is a daemon which is pretty much the pure manifestaion of khorne (ie: a really really big bloodthirster) who has taken the moniker but the fact that khorne is another name for the emmoion of rage i don't see that rage itself being a coherent entity - more a huge gestalt - with enough pressence to create daemons and cause havoc but not a thinking mind as we would understand it.

Just as confusing and contradictory as my first post i know but just throwing my interpretations out there. And lets face it - this is pure fantasy and extrapolating any kind of "truth" from it is impossible.

Zardoz
15-02-2010, 04:03
Old skool Chaos (ala 3rd ed WFB and RT era).

There are other gods besides the big 4. Presumably covering differing 'emotional' areas...or ones that human (types) can't appreciate.
Whether they can rival the big 4 or not is up to debate. But, IIRC, if you devote yourself to one of the gods, you can never rise up higher than them...as everything you do and become is inevitably devoted to them...think Amway. There are 'ups' higher up the ladder than you and eventually, the buck stops at the big one (NKTS).

However, you (or a collective that combines soul force) can also rise up without patronage (chaos undivided) and possibly attain independant godhood without assistance from one of the established gods.
I personally doubt such an entity could ever rival a pre-existing one and if it could, would probably been seen to be aspiring to do so long before it gained enough power to attempt the feat...and squashed before that happens.

I base the above 'opinions' on previous editions/canon, a near eidetic memory and 20+ years of being a devout chaos follower.

But, knowing how GW is...I'm sure that the ultimate Chaos entity...is a tub of butter that resides in someones fridge. A tub of butter that constantly wars with a block of cheese that fell behind a bookshelf left behind in old offices long abandoned by GW staff.

Of course, the block of cheese maintains that IT is the ultimate Chaos entity...

And the carton of soured milk...bides it's time. Waiting for the cow to die. Or was that waiting for the cow to come home?

The warp moves in mysterious ways.

vladsimpaler
15-02-2010, 06:18
But the universes ARE connected, the Warp is the same in both. What's being debated is if they're parallel universes (a la Marvel & DC) or if WFB is just a planet in 40k.

I'm pretty sure that there was a battle report with Chaos Marines (when, you know, they were actually Chaos-y) versus the Empire or Bretonnians or something like that.

I've never read it, only heard about it.

Apparently the Marines lost, too.

Now this could all be completely wrong but that's just what I've heard.

gwarsh41
15-02-2010, 19:01
I think we should keep in mind that there are obviously several stages of heralds, daemons princes, and greater daemons. Dont forget about the forgeworld models. I believe that the forgeworld nurgle daemons prince was a spy of sorts who seemed to almost instantly become one of the stronger daemon princes of nurgle. I don't think it is possible for one to ascend to the powers of the big 4. Slaanesh being the only one we really have a solid answer for the creation. Of which being that an entire race summoned it. slaanesh did not start as a human, did it?
Also, the apoc greater deamons are a great example of what would happen for a greater deamon that is exceptionally talented. The tzeentch one can spawn pink horrors!
The way I think of it might be comparable to titans with marines. you have greater daemons, there is a good chance a greater daemon will wtfpwn just about anyone one on one, so lets use mechs to counter it. lets say, Bjorn the fell handed and the special character GUO. (btw I have done this fight, it took 6 turns for someone to die)
Where bjorn will never be a titan, the GUO can raise to the power that is comparable to say a scout titan. thus we have the FW guo. I am sure that somewhere unseen there is a daemon comparable to a reaver, and then it is hard to imagine, but I am sure that there is at least one daemon that has the power to fell a warlord class titan. I feel that even that strength is weak in comparison to that of one of the big four.
I keep in mind when I say this, the demonstration of power that they have displayed, as well as that they are always engaged with each other. There is an eternal war between the four gods that will never end.
As for fantasy, you could say it is why daemons are so strong in game terms. In fantasy there is nothing to match a forgeworld GUO, I have heard there is not much that can match a normal GUO, but I dont play fantasy.

Mannimarco
15-02-2010, 19:16
the forgeworld nurgle one is deacon mamon, he was an alpha legion sleeper agent who hid with one of the death guard factions when zhufor went on a rampage

he is listed as both a daemon prince and being possessed by a great unclean one (dont ask, I did and was basically told go read storm of iron to see how that is possible) I dont think its theres anything in the book saying how strong he is or where he ranks on nurgles ranks however

the forgeworld big 4 are probably the highest a daemon can get being second only to their patron god, ang'grath being the guardian of the throne of skulls, khornes go to guy who hangs out next to the throne watching over any who come near

Zardoz
16-02-2010, 04:17
I'm pretty sure that there was a battle report with Chaos Marines (when, you know, they were actually Chaos-y) versus the Empire or Bretonnians or something like that.

I've never read it, only heard about it.

Apparently the Marines lost, too.

Now this could all be completely wrong but that's just what I've heard.

Waay back in the day (3rd ed Fantasy and RT 40k) there was a BR on SM's vs Dark Elves IIRC. I read it. Basically, the rules sets were close at that time. The Dark Elves won. Mostly due to magic and massed fire of the time.

Zardoz
16-02-2010, 04:23
As for the possessed by a GD and ascending to become a DP...I don't think that's Storm of Iron. But, maybe they mean the Horus Hearsy novel about the Emperors Children.
And, actually, I don't think that was a GD that possessed Fulgrim but an Alien DP...that later turns his body into it's own...multiple arms and a serpentine tail.