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Karl MkVI
08-02-2010, 03:14
I have a question. Unfortunately, I doubt anyone's going to have an 'official' answer, but I'd like to see what people think, so:

what's everyone's view on the current state of the Star Child Theory? and the Sensei? have they been properly retconned (Squat-style) or are they just being 'nudged towards a retcon'?? or (I really hope this isn't the case): are they being left on the fringes deliberately, for the sake of mystery and 'future options'?

because personally, I think the Sensei and the Star Child ideas are somewhat lame and just don't fit at all anymore (and that Shaman stuff in Realm of Chaos is even worse, if you ask me). and apparently, Gav Thorpe agrees with me (at least so some degree: "the Star Child stuff was too hippy for the 40k universe", allegedly a quotation)!! so has it all been retconned??? 3rd edition rulebook conveniently has the Sensei turn out to be unwitting pawns of Tzeentch...

and pleeeeaaaaaase no one bite my head off for not liking the Star Child etc; it's just an opinion*. im not trying to debate said opinion, im just trying to find out the current state of these particular pieces of fluff in current canon terms. and, even though it may come with the best intentions, the statement "everything is canon" is not what im looking for :)

it's just, Ian Watson's books are so old now. and so are the RoC books. note; not 'bad', I say, just old. and I don't think half of what Mr Watson wrote works now. ditto RoC.

so, anyone sure of the fate of these theories (and their natural extensions)?

*hey, at the end of the day, I personally think that the Emperor is the Last Great Weapon of the Old Ones (a subject for a different post!), so I say let all opinions and theories live long and strong!!

grissom2006
08-02-2010, 06:49
Nope it isn't gone fully yet and i doubt it ever will be. After all Ian Watsons books are getting yet another re-release. Add into it various hints that the Inquisition and Chaos both hunt down supposed Star Childs.

The Sensei on the other hand have yet to crop up again so that may well be put to rest. GW though never fully and utterly retcons things that often it just gets left to fade out of peoples minds. Thats not to say that they have dismissed it though. Just some of us have been in the hobby as long as GW has made 40K.

Karl MkVI
08-02-2010, 09:32
they're re-releasing the Inquisition War Trilogy? which month?

Lupe
08-02-2010, 09:42
Well, the whole sensei/star child thing seems to be deader than a meatsauce covered rat with a chainsword up its butt in a pit full of hungry rippers.

MajorWesJanson
08-02-2010, 09:48
they're re-releasing the Inquisition War Trilogy? which month?

It's out now. I got my copy about a month ago. Still working on it. It's weird.

Urza
08-02-2010, 10:05
Nope it isn't gone fully yet and i doubt it ever will be. After all Ian Watsons books are getting yet another re-release. Add into it various hints that the Inquisition and Chaos both hunt down supposed Star Childs.

There is only one Starchild - it is the soul of the God-Emperor, hidden safely away from the Gods of Chaos somewhere within the Immaterium. It is still connected to the undying husk of the Emperor within the Golden Throne. The theory is that when the body finally dies, the Starchild will be set free, transcend to Godhood and defeat the Gods of Chaos.

It's the Illuminati and the Sensei that the Inquisition hunt under the (possibly) mistaken belief that they are a Chaos Cult. However the entire theory could be bunkum developed by Tzeentch in order to set the loyal forces of Mankind against each other, so who knows? :D

Karl MkVI
08-02-2010, 10:14
Well, the whole sensei/star child thing seems to be deader than a meatsauce covered rat with a chainsword up its butt in a pit full of hungry rippers.

this is what I'm hoping. but there's still bits of it floating around, like a bad smell. in fact, rather like the smell of the creature you just described...


It's out now. I got my copy about a month ago. Still working on it. It's weird.

no argument there!

Karl MkVI
08-02-2010, 10:18
It's the Illuminati and the Sensei that the Inquisition hunt under the (possibly) mistaken belief that they are a Chaos Cult. However the entire theory could be bunkum developed by Tzeentch in order to set the loyal forces of Mankind against each other, so who knows? :D

this is the problem; it's a well-enough constructed piece of fluff that it has an excuse to stick around. I just really don't like it, and enthusiastically support the subtle nods that GW are making towards pushing it into retconnaissance (i hope i just coined that phrase, that would be awesome...). but the thing is, they may just leave it hanging around as 'yet another theory'.

which would really annoy, personally.

Francois
08-02-2010, 10:24
Ah, though this is just an opinion, I like the Star Child theory. It is consistent with the way the Eldar birthed Slaanesh, though they unwittingly. Why can't humanity birth a god? And why can't God be good?

"There must be something worth living for!"
"There must be something worth trying for!"
"Even some things worth dying for...!

"And if one man can stand tall"
"There might be hope for us all"
"Somewhere, somewhere in the spirit of man!"

--- Frankie (quote from Jeff Wayne's "War of the World")

Cromwell Haarlock-Leth
08-02-2010, 10:24
Urza wrote:
"However the entire theory could be bunkum developed by Tzeentch in order to set the loyal forces of Mankind against each other, so who knows?"

Even weirder:
The flash of Warp energy released by the ascension of the Emperor will act as a beacon in the Immaterium, a signal for the last Old One that the time has come for him to come back and take control of mankind, acting as the Star Child God, and launching his vengeful crusade against the C'tan controlled Adeptus Mechanicus.
This fabulous lure was planned by Tzeentch, since mankind will be torn apart by a new and terrifying civil war (AdMech vs Ecclersiarchy), and not able anymore to resist the invasion of the Imperium by the Chaos forces.:shifty:
And after a few apocalyptic battles, it will be the end of all things, and GW will be ready to launch its new game: WH:30K, Crusade and Heresy.:cheese:

Karl MkVI
08-02-2010, 13:10
um, interesting.... :)

Star Child theory or not, I think the sensei are especially rubbish. the Emperor having real children? no, i dont think that works. aside from anything else, it damages his 'singular' nature. someone like the Emperor would never just have casual sex; and if he's thinking about it at all then that suggests a relationship... which, as I say, damages the 'singular' ideal.

plus, if he could imbue 'real' children with portions of his power, why make the primarchs? why not just create and nurture (from near or far) a large family of super-powerful bastards, who would actually be born of him, rather than the (possibly 'Chaotically-enhanced') primarchs?

Iracundus
08-02-2010, 13:36
um, interesting.... :)
plus, if he could imbue 'real' children with portions of his power, why make the primarchs? why not just create and nurture (from near or far) a large family of super-powerful bastards, who would actually be born of him, rather than the (possibly 'Chaotically-enhanced') primarchs?

Because the Sensei aren't super psykers. There is nothing obvious to suggest they have any powers at all and they aren't superhuman in stature or strength or toughness. One of their main defining traits as detailed in RoC is their immortality and lack of aging beyond adulthood. Their second trait is their invisibility to scrying and psychic surveillance because they blend in with the warp. They do not stand out at all. The RoC says the Emperor was unaware of them. Likewise, the Sensei may be unaware of their own heritage or why they have their special traits.

Karl MkVI
08-02-2010, 13:58
Because the Sensei aren't super psykers. There is nothing obvious to suggest they have any powers at all and they aren't superhuman in stature or strength or toughness. One of their main defining traits as detailed in RoC is their immortality and lack of aging beyond adulthood. Their second trait is their invisibility to scrying and psychic surveillance because they blend in with the warp. They do not stand out at all. The RoC says the Emperor was unaware of them. Likewise, the Sensei may be unaware of their own heritage or why they have their special traits.

fair enough, but if he's unaware of them, isn't that a little un-Emperor-ish?? thats what i meant with the 'casual sex' point; not really his style, surely?

x-esiv-4c
08-02-2010, 13:59
Still 100% valid fluff wise.
Some of the best fluff in 40k imho.

Horus_Lupercal
08-02-2010, 15:46
SPOILER ALERT********************************************* *********





I enjoyed the sensei and star child fluff, and i think Mr. Watson should do another book in inquisitor wars. he left the last book kind of hanging on a cliff there. with Jaq thinking he found one the emperors children at the end.

Lastie
08-02-2010, 16:25
Still 100% valid fluff wise.
Some of the best fluff in 40k imho.

Agreed. One hundred percent. What is there about the Star Child fiction that does not gel with the current state of the 40K 'verse? if anything it follows what we know about how the Warp operates in relation to the birth of super gestalt sentient conciousness (read: the Chaos Gods), and in a way is similar to the Eldar Ynnead project (forming a gestalt being from various souls) only the Emperor already is a gestalt being.

On the other hand this does do two things which I believe the current managers of 40K fluff wish to avoid: a) it explains the Emperor, and b) thus gives him limits. As he currently stands (especially in the HH novels and surrounding supplements) the Emperor is a mysterious entity. He's basically a plot device that can be wheeled out to perform anything that the plot demands without our suspension of disbelief raising some red flags and asking 'wait ... wut?'. Does make it somewhat amusing when Ork warbosses can strangle him, yet C'tan get bitchslapped, but hey ...

But I digress; I personally believe, in an effort to restore some 'mystery' to their prized character the Sensei, Star Child, and especially the origin of the Emperor had to go. Which is odd as the latter was recently hinted at, yet the Sensei have been left hanging as possibly a Tzeentch cult possibly destroyed by the Inquisition.

As to the Illuminati, they seem to tie up with the Black Library (in-verse version) and a large section of the background that is given far too little attention: the nature of Chaos. Odd considering Chaos is unarguably the Big Bad of the 40K campaign. Again, perhaps they just wanted more mystery back again ...

Anyway, my two pence. Apologies if my ramblings make no sense. :p

Narf
08-02-2010, 16:47
SPOILER ALERT********************************************* *********





I enjoyed the sensei and star child fluff, and i think Mr. Watson should do another book in inquisitor wars. he left the last book kind of hanging on a cliff there. with Jaq thinking he found one the emperors children at the end.


More spoliers!






Really??? in my book jaq went insane as meh'lindi battered him and ran off into the webway after possesing the girl that jaq forced to look like her - this led jaq to go a bit odd, start spouting gibberish and for lex to put a bolt through his head.

Agreed though that it was finished all a bit suddenly and that it would have been better with a 4th book rather than a ending just becuase GW said they werent gonna pay watson fro antoher book, so he decided they couldnt use his characters......

sigur
08-02-2010, 16:58
Well, the whole sensei/star child thing seems to be deader than a meatsauce covered rat with a chainsword up its butt in a pit full of hungry rippers.

True. Only source (if I remember correctly) is one of the Realm of Chaos books anyway and that's it.

Just as dead as the Inquisition Wars trilogy. And the primarchs. Gah, 40k Background is freaking me out.

mightymconeshot
08-02-2010, 17:01
yeah. i dont know what part that was in put mr Narf has it right

drmarco
08-02-2010, 17:04
Agreed. One hundred percent. What is there about the Star Child fiction that does not gel with the current state of the 40K 'verse? if anything it follows what we know about how the Warp operates in relation to the birth of super gestalt sentient conciousness (read: the Chaos Gods), and in a way is similar to the Eldar Ynnead project (forming a gestalt being from various souls) only the Emperor already is a gestalt being.


Totally concur Lastie...

One thing that seems to have not been retconned is how the Emperor 'dines' on the souls of psykers. The Inquisitor War trilogy implied that the Emperor was a gestalt being, but what if that consciousness is more akin to an infinity circuit, for the souls of human psykers (like the all psyker Eldar...). What if the Ynnead project has a significantly human equivalent?...

I reckon the 40k-niverse is big enough for the Sensei, Illuminati and StarChild to fit among all the other theories and myths...

Marco

LordLucan
08-02-2010, 18:11
fair enough, but if he's unaware of them, isn't that a little un-Emperor-ish?? thats what i meant with the 'casual sex' point; not really his style, surely?

The Emperor is human. Frankly, I think it'd be unbelievable that he has never had intercourse, throughout his entire immortal existence...:D

Karl MkVI
08-02-2010, 19:17
The Emperor is human. Frankly, I think it'd be unbelievable that he has never had intercourse, throughout his entire immortal existence...:D

point taken. and yet, it just doesn't seem right in my opinion. it's like something out of those stories about Ancient Greek Gods, where Zeus impregnates women in the form of a swan or something equally weird...

human or otherwise, he's just such a singular entity, im not sure he'd get it. as has been established, he seems somewhat detached from us emotionally; and he's never seemed to be much of a one for pleasure, either!

like I say, your logic is perfectly sound. IMO it just doesn't... feel right.

EDIT: also, if he's capable of having children, I'm sure he would be aware of that possibility. so why not have them stick around by his side? they might not turn out like primarchs or anything, but some immortal companions could at least help the long winters pass by a little more swiftly...

Iracundus
08-02-2010, 19:25
point taken. and yet, it just doesn't seem right in my opinion. it's like something out of those stories about Ancient Greek Gods, where Zeus impregnates women in the form of a swan or something equally weird...

What is not "right" about that? You seem to be unable to move past the concept of Emperor as infallible omniscient Abrahamic god.



EDIT: also, if he's capable of having children, I'm sure he would be aware of that possibility. so why not have them stick around by his side? they might not turn out like primarchs or anything, but some immortal companions could at least help the long winters pass by a little more swiftly...

Again you assume the Emperor must or should be aware of everything, when he has already been shown to be fallible and capable of making mistakes.

If the children have no apparent special abilities and seem to grow up normally to adulthood, the Emperor may have simply assumed they were normal average humans. Prior to coming out as the Emperor, he was stated as moving behind the scenes so his lifestyle could have precluded him from ever checking up on the fate of any children. His children in turn may have had no reason to suspect their father was anything out of the ordinary and may have only discovered their immortality many decades down the line (after the Emperor has moved on elsewhere) when they discover they are clearly not aging like normal.

andyg2006
08-02-2010, 19:34
As far as I'm concerned, the Star-Child info. is part of 40K and always will be until they prise it out of my cold, dead hand. IMHO,there's already too much "the Imperium is falling apart" nonsense going on and its nice to have an idea that maybe the Imperium will keep going and Humanity isn't all going to get turned into Ork slaves / Eldar puppets / Nid Snax / Necron followers / Greater Good-buddies / whatever.

For what it's worth, isn't there the possibility that (given his background and where -and who- he comes from) maybe the Emperor doesn't actually know that he's capable of the star-child stuff?

Karl MkVI
08-02-2010, 19:49
For what it's worth, isn't there the possibility that (given his background and where -and who- he comes from) maybe the Emperor doesn't actually know that he's capable of the star-child stuff?

i think this might be the whole point. certainly supposed to be the case with the Sensei, anyway, I believe.


What is not "right" about that? You seem to be unable to move past the concept of Emperor as infallible omniscient Abrahamic god. ...

Again you assume the Emperor must or should be aware of everything, when he has already been shown to be fallible and capable of making mistakes.

apology; im not trying to suggest he can't make mistakes; far from it. im merely suggesting that if he did have children, then he might have at least, you know, checked in on them, from time to time. I suppose you're right; he was probably busy, or trying to remain hidden, but a quick disguise and visit to Ariadne the Friendly Turkish Lady might not have gone amiss. just to check up on the little blighters.

borithan
08-02-2010, 20:06
what's everyone's view on the current state of the Star Child Theory? and the Sensei? have they been properly retconned (Squat-style) or are they just being 'nudged towards a retcon'?? or (I really hope this isn't the case): are they being left on the fringes deliberately, for the sake of mystery and 'future options'?Not squatted, but left alone as it is felt it doesn't fit. Leaves it open for them to use it in the future, but no intention to at the moment.



3rd edition rulebook conveniently has the Sensei turn out to be unwitting pawns of Tzeentch... No, it says a Cult referring to itself as the Cult of the Starchild is, in the opinion of the reporting Inquisitor, a pawn of Tzeentch. Remember the whole "unreliable evidence" thing of 40k. It may be true, it may not be. It may have had something to do with the 1st ed Starchild and Sensei, or it may not.



it's just, Ian Watson's books are so old now. and so are the RoC books. note; not 'bad', I say, just old. and I don't think half of what Mr Watson wrote works now.No, it really doesn't fit. Too weird.

Lastie
08-02-2010, 20:45
like I say, your logic is perfectly sound. IMO it just doesn't... feel right.



What is not "right" about that? You seem to be unable to move past the concept of Emperor as infallible omniscient Abrahamic god.


I feel the main problem with the Sensei lies with the main problem with the Emperor; neither feel fleshed out enough background-wise. With the lack of details we are given we're left with large plot holes that naturally don't sit well and prevent us from accepting these concepts into our personal 'canon' (and lets face it, with 40K it's all personal). What we need is more details, and I'm sure with the appropriate attention the Sensei concept can mesh nicely with the general meta-plot of 40K (which may or may not be Order versus Chaos).



No, it really doesn't fit. Too weird.

Sometimes I feel we need a little bit of the weird back. 40K's too comfortable these days.

Karl MkVI
08-02-2010, 20:55
I feel the main problem with the Sensei lies with the main problem with the Emperor; neither feel fleshed out enough background-wise. With the lack of details we are given we're left with large plot holes that naturally don't sit well and prevent us from accepting these concepts into our personal 'canon' (and lets face it, with 40K it's all personal). What we need is more details, and I'm sure with the appropriate attention the Sensei concept can mesh nicely with the general meta-plot of 40K (which may or may not be Order versus Chaos).

it seems, though, that this is the point; keep the Emperor mythic, and not only is there loads of room left for philosophy etc (think The Matrix, before the sequels came out and attempted to 'answer' everything by making Neo 'wireless', etc :(), but it also means that GW can point everything to him, and blame everything on him, without it ever being eminently questionable.

GW: "He's the Emperor; you don't know anything about him, so if we want to attach this plot point to him, then we can. and we will. oh, we so will..." :)



Sometimes I feel we need a little bit of the weird back. 40K's too comfortable these days.

'comfortable'... not really a word I'd have used to describe the 40k universe!!:D

Brother Siccarius
08-02-2010, 21:34
um, interesting.... :)

Star Child theory or not, I think the sensei are especially rubbish. the Emperor having real children? no, i dont think that works. aside from anything else, it damages his 'singular' nature. someone like the Emperor would never just have casual sex; and if he's thinking about it at all then that suggests a relationship... which, as I say, damages the 'singular' ideal.

plus, if he could imbue 'real' children with portions of his power, why make the primarchs? why not just create and nurture (from near or far) a large family of super-powerful bastards, who would actually be born of him, rather than the (possibly 'Chaotically-enhanced') primarchs?

They aren't super powerful. Their only call to fame was being immortal like the Emperor, though some were somewhat middling psykers.

The Emperor never had a singular nature, because he was always known as the guy who was popping in and out of history at times of need, and he always had some kind of group around him. Even in the 40k timeline.





I have a question. Unfortunately, I doubt anyone's going to have an 'official' answer, but I'd like to see what people think, so:

Last official group of fluff on them and the Illuminati was a blurb in the 3rd ed book where the Inquisition was tracking and hunting them down on the supposition that they were a cult of Tzeentch.

point taken. and yet, it just doesn't seem right in my opinion. it's like something out of those stories about Ancient Greek Gods, where Zeus impregnates women in the form of a swan or something equally weird...

human or otherwise, he's just such a singular entity, im not sure he'd get it. as has been established, he seems somewhat detached from us emotionally; and he's never seemed to be much of a one for pleasure, either!

like I say, your logic is perfectly sound. IMO it just doesn't... feel right.

EDIT: also, if he's capable of having children, I'm sure he would be aware of that possibility. so why not have them stick around by his side? they might not turn out like primarchs or anything, but some immortal companions could at least help the long winters pass by a little more swiftly...

The Emperor never wanted to have a huge following unless it was necessary for the task at hand. At all points he would appear to tip the scales of human history and then disappear. He isn't the kind of guy who wanted to rule, and he's showed that. His plan was always, in every event, to help at pivotal points, then disappear, leaving humanity to grow on it's own.

Harwammer
08-02-2010, 21:44
The Emperor never wanted to have a huge following unless it was necessary for the task at hand. At all points he would appear to tip the scales of human history and then disappear. He isn't the kind of guy who wanted to rule, and he's showed that. His plan was always, in every event, to help at pivotal points, then disappear, leaving humanity to grow on it's own.

The Emperor = The Doctor!? Vice Versa?

The idea of the Emperor not having children seems silly to me... don't forget he once was a teenager... and has super powers! Surely he could woo the ladies :)

Iracundus
08-02-2010, 21:51
They aren't super powerful. Their only call to fame was being immortal like the Emperor, though some were somewhat middling psykers.


I don't have my RoC immediately on hand but I seem to recall they were never psykers at all. If pledged to the Star Child, they could have certain powers, channelled from the Star Child, but these were more like "Chaos Gifts" rather than the individual themselves being psykers. What did define them though was their immortality, their freedom from the excesses of emotion that fed the Chaos gods, and their general charisma and antipathy towards oppression. In a way, they did inherit from the Emperor as their general attitudes and lack of emotional excesses harkens back to the ancient days of the prehistoric shamans before the rise of the Chaos gods and the dangerous turbulent warp.

Brother Siccarius
08-02-2010, 22:02
I don't have my RoC immediately on hand but I seem to recall they were never psykers at all. If pledged to the Star Child, they could have certain powers, channelled from the Star Child, but these were more like "Chaos Gifts" rather than the individual themselves being psykers. What did define them though was their immortality, their freedom from the excesses of emotion that fed the Chaos gods, and their general charisma and antipathy towards oppression. In a way, they did inherit from the Emperor as their general attitudes and lack of emotional excesses harkens back to the ancient days of the prehistoric shamans before the rise of the Chaos gods and the dangerous turbulent warp.

The 3rd ed blurb mentions psykers.

Iracundus
08-02-2010, 22:17
The 3rd ed blurb mentions psykers.

That blurb is also in-character. It wouldn't be that far fetched for the Inquisitor to mistake Gifts of the Star Child to be psychic powers.

Sir_Turalyon
08-02-2010, 22:29
They are still valid fluff, but as GW moved from stance "we are telling you details that even most inquisitors don't know" to "we're telling you just enough to spark your curiosity", there is no need to mention them.


Not squatted, but left alone as it is felt it doesn't fit.

Which is exactly what happened to Squats.




The 3rd ed blurb mentions psykers.

3rd esd blurb is written from point of view of Inquisitor who has no idea what he's dealing with and interprets everything he sees to fit his "chaos conspiracy" theory. He also mentions the "Sensei unite with Emperor to create new superbeing" plan as veiled way of saying they try to archive deamonhood :wtf:.

Original Sensei fluff mentions Inquisition persecutes them out of ignorance and mistakes them fot chaos worshippers on regular basis - of which 3rd ed blurb is just example.

Brother Siccarius
08-02-2010, 22:35
Which is exactly what happened to Squats.



Squats were killed off, and it's been something of a popular sport for them and their home planet to be constantly enslaved, eaten, and tortured since the first announcement of it.

First it was the nids ate them, then the Dark Eldar raided them, currently the Orks are sitting pretty on their homeworld with the remaining inhabitants enslaved (as per the Ork codex)

Iracundus
08-02-2010, 22:36
Original Sensei fluff mentions Inquisition persecutes them out of ignorance and mistakes them fot chaos worshippers on regular basis - of which 3rd ed blurb is just example.

The 3rd ed. blurb also has the Inquisitor dismissing the claims of the Sensei as impossible given how they associate with ruffians, aliens, and other undesirables. The actions and attitudes of the Sensei show that a better more reasonable alternative exists, that co-existence with some aliens is possible, and that a brighter future is theoretically achievable. The 40K universe is darker for it because the Inquisition then tries to stamp down on it, in essence humanity crushing its own hope.

vladsimpaler
08-02-2010, 22:46
Because the Sensei aren't super psykers. There is nothing obvious to suggest they have any powers at all and they aren't superhuman in stature or strength or toughness. One of their main defining traits as detailed in RoC is their immortality and lack of aging beyond adulthood. Their second trait is their invisibility to scrying and psychic surveillance because they blend in with the warp. They do not stand out at all. The RoC says the Emperor was unaware of them. Likewise, the Sensei may be unaware of their own heritage or why they have their special traits.

They actually do kind of stand out because of their unusual leadership qualities, this is talked about a bit in Slaves to Darkness.

But yeah, most of them don't even know that they are descendents of the Emperor.

Personally I find the Sensei/Star Child fluff to be good and it's something that made Warhammer 40k interesting.

The Sensei are the only true good guys but even they can become evil, like the Grey Sensei.

Anyway, the Sensei are good guys but the Empire can't have this. They hunt down and kill the Sensei, this just helps the dystopian image as even the good guys are murdered senselessly! Oh and they are turned into psycannon bolts. :cries:

It's also funny because the Empire is unwittingly destroying its only hope for its existence.

Karl MkVI
08-02-2010, 22:52
The Emperor never wanted to have a huge following unless it was necessary for the task at hand. At all points he would appear to tip the scales of human history and then disappear. He isn't the kind of guy who wanted to rule, and he's showed that. His plan was always, in every event, to help at pivotal points, then disappear, leaving humanity to grow on it's own.

well, some of that depends on whether you believe he is the Saviour of Humanity (TM), or the Biggest Liar in History who Just Wants to Ascend to Godhood ;)

personally, I don't believe either, but that's another story...

Brother Siccarius
09-02-2010, 05:36
well, some of that depends on whether you believe he is the Saviour of Humanity (TM), or the Biggest Liar in History who Just Wants to Ascend to Godhood ;)

personally, I don't believe either, but that's another story...

My response, as always, is just that if he wanted to ascend to godhood he had plenty of time to do so when he was only competing with stories and myth rather than when humanity pulled the mask off the chaos gods.

I don't see him as either though. He certainly isn't a savior of humanity, otherwise the two stated objectives would be one and the same. Save humanity by attaining godhood over the worship of the chaos gods and be a god in mortal flesh. He doesn't seem intent on leading humanity, but rather just paying enough attention to pick it up when it falls hard on it's butt.

Iracundus
09-02-2010, 07:38
My response, as always, is just that if he wanted to ascend to godhood he had plenty of time to do so when he was only competing with stories and myth rather than when humanity pulled the mask off the chaos gods.

I don't see him as either though. He certainly isn't a savior of humanity, otherwise the two stated objectives would be one and the same. Save humanity by attaining godhood over the worship of the chaos gods and be a god in mortal flesh. He doesn't seem intent on leading humanity, but rather just paying enough attention to pick it up when it falls hard on it's butt.

People can change. He may have originally been trying to nudge humanity from behind the scenes. However he obviously failed in stopping the growth of the Chaos gods through such a strategy and his coming out as "Emperor" seems to show a dramatic change in strategy. Depending on how one chooses to look at it, it could appear an impatient desperate move by an exasperated immortal being tired of seeing humanity fail to save itself repeatedly down the centuries.

If someone wanted to ascribe more sinister motives, perhaps the Emperor had tired of his original goals and chose a more selfish path.

Iuris
09-02-2010, 09:09
You know, this explains something...

If the emperor was so engrossed in his affairs that he didn't even remember to check on his lovers and children regularly, no wonder he didn't manage to raise Horus & co. properly.

As a matter of fact, I think the emperor had NO people skills at all, relying all too much on his psychic abilities to charm them instead.

You know, this might warrant a new topic...

jt.glass
09-02-2010, 09:39
what's everyone's view on the current state of the Star Child Theory? and the Sensei? have they been properly retconned (Squat-style)The squats didn't get ret-conned, they got eaten.


3rd edition rulebook conveniently has the Sensei turn out to be unwitting pawns of Tzeentch...It doesn't necesarily say that he was a pawn of the changer, only that the inquisitor thought he was. If you don't like the Sensei/Star Child stuff, you can decide that he was right. If like me you do like it, you can decide that either the Inquisitor was wrong, or decide that this one Sensei being corrupted doesn't mean they all are.

That's actually the thing I like about 40k canon; almost eveything is a theory, so you can decide the bit you like are true and the bits you don't are false.


jt.

Stucorb
09-02-2010, 10:01
I don't have my RoC immediately on hand but I seem to recall they were never psykers at all. If pledged to the Star Child, they could have certain powers, channelled from the Star Child, but these were more like "Chaos Gifts" rather than the individual themselves being psykers. What did define them though was their immortality, their freedom from the excesses of emotion that fed the Chaos gods, and their general charisma and antipathy towards oppression. In a way, they did inherit from the Emperor as their general attitudes and lack of emotional excesses harkens back to the ancient days of the prehistoric shamans before the rise of the Chaos gods and the dangerous turbulent warp.

I thought the Inquisitor war books said the sensei were extreme psychic nulls which is why the emporer did know about them. it was also said that the illuminatti were going to use them to control the emporer once he acended to god hood.

Iracundus
09-02-2010, 11:13
I thought the Inquisitor war books said the sensei were extreme psychic nulls which is why the emporer did know about them. it was also said that the illuminatti were going to use them to control the emporer once he acended to god hood.

The RoC books from what I recall (since I don't have them on hand at the moment) said the Sensei were psychic blanks and invisible thus to psychic scrying and were unknown to the Emperor. This is different from the Pariahs, who are psychic negatives, in the same way that psykers blaze in the warp as "positives". The Sensei are probably more like complete neutral, and don't have any recognizably significant signature in the warp, positive or negative.

Lastie
09-02-2010, 14:22
From Realms of Chaos: The Lost and the Damned, page 185: "They are also protected from the Chaos Powers, and the untainted flow of the warp can move through them unimpeded ... They radiate natural confidence and harmony, and can even draw upon the energies of the warp to use their psychic powers. Sensei do not risk attracting daemons or other malicious psychic forces by using their powers".

So they can indeed use psychic powers, and seemingly as much as they want. They are, for all purposes, immune to the standard perils of the warp. Broken much? :p

Iracundus
09-02-2010, 14:26
From Realms of Chaos: The Lost and the Damned, page 185: "They are also protected from the Chaos Powers, and the untainted flow of the warp can move through them unimpeded ... They radiate natural confidence and harmony, and can even draw upon the energies of the warp to use their psychic powers. Sensei do not risk attracting daemons or other malicious psychic forces by using their powers".

So they can indeed use psychic powers, and seemingly as much as they want. They are, for all purposes, immune to the standard perils of the warp. Broken much? :p

Alright I stand corrected on that point about possibility of being psykers, since I don't have the RoC out of storage for reference. However I don't think they were all necessarily psykers.

They aren't broken if you consider the Emperor not broken, because wielding the energies of the harmonious warp as it was before it became turbulent is what he does as well.

Pacific
09-02-2010, 14:44
So the Inquisition Wars were a little weird? They were very much in keeping with the material, such as RoC, being produced at the time. Personally, I think even though (on the surface) the 40k universe has been dumbed down somewhat since then, the fact that GW hasn't put the kibosh on all these old stories mean that there is a wealth of background material and different accounts which all serve to add depth to the 40k universe.

We have 20 years of material, dozens if not hundreds of writers have been involved in, and the result is quite possibly the most detailed fantasy universe described since Dune. In my opinion, the absolute worst thing GW could do is to snub some of the older material in an attempt to streamline all of the background into one neat text which explains everything.

Brother Siccarius
09-02-2010, 19:25
People can change. He may have originally been trying to nudge humanity from behind the scenes. However he obviously failed in stopping the growth of the Chaos gods through such a strategy and his coming out as "Emperor" seems to show a dramatic change in strategy. Depending on how one chooses to look at it, it could appear an impatient desperate move by an exasperated immortal being tired of seeing humanity fail to save itself repeatedly down the centuries.

If someone wanted to ascribe more sinister motives, perhaps the Emperor had tired of his original goals and chose a more selfish path.

Except his reign as the Emperor wasn't much of a change from what he did previously. Show up at a critical time, turn the tide of humanity, withdraw from the spotlight and give his power to others.

I think anyone suggesting that by his constantly denying his divinity and giving up all his powers over humanity that he was trying to attain his current status as a god needs to have their paranoia levels checked.

Iracundus
09-02-2010, 19:29
Except his reign as the Emperor wasn't much of a change from what he did previously. Show up at a critical time, turn the tide of humanity, withdraw from the spotlight and give his power to others.


I don't see any withdrawal or giving of power to others. He was the immortal head of state of the Imperium, and instead of nudging humanity he dragged it kicking and screaming by force into joining his Imperium whether they wanted to or not. In doing so he had revealed that he was an immortal and had powers far beyond a normal human. Such a blatant move is a marked break from the old strategy of advising and subtly nudging things from behind the scenes.

ryng_sting
09-02-2010, 19:59
You somewhat get the impression that all the Starchild fluff is on its way out. Pity. I'd like to see the basics - the Emperor's soul, what happens in the warp when he finally snuffs it - reworked into something better. It could be to the Imperium what Ynnead is to the Eldar - a small ray of hope, probably false hope, but still there.

Karl MkVI
09-02-2010, 23:02
I think anyone suggesting that by his constantly denying his divinity and giving up all his powers over humanity that he was trying to attain his current status as a god needs to have their paranoia levels checked.

but that's not what people suggest;

so the theory goes; he was trying to attain a different form of Godhood, a true ascension, possibly to a level such as that which the Chaos Gods enjoy. it didnt involve rotting, nor being stuck on the Golden Throne. we dont know what it would/could have meant in terms of consequence, and we dont know the full extent of the plan, but it certainly didnt involve ending up half-dead.

the ascension he got is not what he was planning; he didn't want to be a corpse-god trapped on the golden throne. he wanted to be a 'proper' god :). his plan of ascension was better, and more selfish. Horus screwed it up.

(fyi, as ive said; this isn't my take. but this is the so-called 'Godhood Theory'.)

EDIT: this post ignores the 'The Emperor planned the Heresy' notion. personally I think that's total nonsense.

Horus_Lupercal
10-02-2010, 18:14
SPOILER ALERT********************************************* ********





i guess its not at the very end more like that last battle they show up at and catch a lift on the titan, thats when Jaq thinks he found one dof the emperors sons, sorry for the misleaading info

LexxBomb
11-02-2010, 09:17
I suggest people read the Inquisition war trilogy and then read the Eisenhorn trilogy... as well as the Inquisitor source book because it shows the development of the Inquisition as a body...

example

we see the Ordo Malleus come out as a third Ordo on the same level with in the Inquisition instead of a secret Ordo tasked with fighting demons and policing the the other Ordos...

It shows us that GW have indeed moved the plot of 40k on.

also the thorians philosophy I think stems from the Ordo Malleus's knowledge of the Starchild and the Sensei... heck Sebastian Thor was most probably the most famous Sensei within the Imperium ever.

Urza
11-02-2010, 10:13
so the theory goes; he was trying to attain a different form of Godhood, a true ascension, possibly to a level such as that which the Chaos Gods enjoy. it didnt involve rotting, nor being stuck on the Golden Throne. we dont know what it would/could have meant in terms of consequence, and we dont know the full extent of the plan, but it certainly didnt involve ending up half-dead.

the ascension he got is not what he was planning; he didn't want to be a corpse-god trapped on the golden throne. he wanted to be a 'proper' god :). his plan of ascension was better, and more selfish. Horus screwed it up.


Thats not the case at all. The Emperor was trying to stamp out religion in all its forms - he saw it as a blight on the advancement of the human race. This is shown throughout the Horus Heresy series of books - it is even stated many times that the Emperor abhored the fact that some Humans were trying to build up religions with him as their 'God-Emperor', and that they were stamped out wherever possible.

Why would someone that is so determined to abolish religion in all its forms plan to make himself into a God?? The first objective contradicts the second.

All the Emperor wanted to do was unite Mankind across the stars and make them strong enough to defend themselves from all threats. Godhood was not something that he desired at all.

Cromwell Haarlock-Leth
11-02-2010, 11:11
Why would someone that is so determined to abolish religion in all its forms plan to make himself into a God?? The first objective contradicts the second.


Or not.
Firtstly, He eliminates all others religion with His crusaders, thus having room for a new one.
Secondly, He commands Lorgar to write the Lectio Divinatus, to spread the words of His Godhood without seeming to be involved in that matter.
Thirdly, He denies His implication, and go as far as to allow a few believers in His Godhood to die as martyrs. (Always good for a starting religion: it draws the attention)
Finaly, He harvests what He planted...

Deceitful attitude. The Emperor seen as the biggest liar of the Universe.
Be kind enough not to call the Inquisition... I don't wanna burn.

Karl MkVI
11-02-2010, 11:46
Thats not the case at all. The Emperor was trying to stamp out religion in all its forms - he saw it as a blight on the advancement of the human race. This is shown throughout the Horus Heresy series of books - it is even stated many times that the Emperor abhored the fact that some Humans were trying to build up religions with him as their 'God-Emperor', and that they were stamped out wherever possible.

Why would someone that is so determined to abolish religion in all its forms plan to make himself into a God?? The first objective contradicts the second.

All the Emperor wanted to do was unite Mankind across the stars and make them strong enough to defend themselves from all threats. Godhood was not something that he desired at all.

two things:

1) I didnt say it was my theory. it is a popular one, though.

2) you seem to be missing something here; one of the base points of this theory is that everyting you just said is in fact the 'cover story'. the entire theory is based upon the notion that the Emperor was lying to everyone about his true intentions. thats the whole point. have you never come across this viewpoint before? it's one of the central debates regarding the Emperor's true nature. it is rather a popular topic...

as I said, it's not a theory I support, but I certainly accept its plausibility.

Urza
11-02-2010, 13:40
I didnt say it was my theory. it is a popular one, though.

I don't recall saying it was your theory either... :rolleyes: I was saying that the theory didn't tie in with fluff from various Codexes and BL books.

On one extreme you have the forces of Chaos, and on the other the Imperial Ecclesiarchy. Both sides take religious fanaticism to the extreme, albeit to polar opposites.

The Emperor wanted to tread a different path. If it was just based on the word of other supporting characters it would be one thing, but the words come from his own mouth in The Last Church.

Only a Chaos worshipper would ever say any different :)

Horus_Lupercal
11-02-2010, 14:22
urza whos your avatar

Karl MkVI
11-02-2010, 18:12
I don't recall saying it was your theory either... :rolleyes: I was saying that the theory didn't tie in with fluff from various Codexes and BL books.

On one extreme you have the forces of Chaos, and on the other the Imperial Ecclesiarchy. Both sides take religious fanaticism to the extreme, albeit to polar opposites.

The Emperor wanted to tread a different path. If it was just based on the word of other supporting characters it would be one thing, but the words come from his own mouth in The Last Church.

Only a Chaos worshipper would ever say any different :)

hah well im certainly no chaos worshipper.

EDIT: to avoid any potential chance of confusion; all the following uses of 'is', 'was' and so on, are supposed to be from a 30k perspective; i cant be bothered to go back and change all the grammar and wording :)

but this is the whole point; the words might have come from his own mouth, but the idea is that he's lying.

and it doesnt actually necessarily contradict BL books, depending on where you stand. Erebus suggests that achieving godhood is what the Emperor is doing. now, of course, I assumed to start with that Erebus was simply lying to achieve his own ends. however, it has been hinted subsequently (mainly through questions) that the Emperor is doing exactly that. some of these questions include;

1) why doesnt he tell anyone about the warp (bar the bare bones of what he told Horus, for example)?
2) why does he retire to the palace in the first place? yes; to enter the webway, buuuut instead of using it as a system of travel, maybe he's, say... looking for the Black Library?? Ahriman wants to find the Black Library because he thinks it will make him godlike in power...

the list goes on, but i dont want to populate this thread with postulations as to the motives of the Emperor.

the point is, it is widely speculated that the Emperor is trying to ascend to godhood because he is in fact a huge selfish liar who is only using the human race as pawns for his own ends. the Heresy screwed up this plan, and now he's trapped on the throne. some nutcase fans even think he planned the Heresy because he foresaw it as a way to detach his soul from his body without dying altogether.

your point about eliminating religion is covered by this; he needs the religion and worship of humans to ascend (as in the 30/40k universe, 'gods' are created and maintained by emotion and worship). however, until he has control of the galaxy, human worship is not useful to him; it is not strong enough and there are not enough worshippers, plus he needs to be in a safe position to ascend without being threatened. so he goes on a crusade and stamps out religion in all its forms (whilst displaying powers from time to time that [random, generic, gullible fool says:] "surely only a godly creature could have?!?"). therefore, knowing that humanity will inevitably feel the need to worship something, he has established himself as the only god 'available' (besides the chaos gods, whose worshippers he cleanses wherever they are found, citing 'religion' as his enemy). this of course strengthens the power of the faith shown in him. so, with the galaxy conquered, and faith beginning to spring up once again, all of it directed at the Emperor, he is now safe to complete his plan and ascend. he returns to earth, selfishly abandoning the crusade for his own ends (which, note, he reveals to no-one "Not even me. [Horus]").

and, as an aside, who says his plan to ascend is necessarily a completely selfish one? maybe true ascension to godhood is the only way he can fight and defeat the chaos gods...

as we've established, it's not my theory and I didn't come up with it. and it's certainly not just some nutcase notion that i threw into the hat a few hours ago! so surely logic therefore dictates that I got it from somewhere?? yep, you guessed it; i got it from the hundreds and thousands of fans who log onto these very forums and post stuff like this. and i only realised how strong a following this theory had whilst surfing the BL forums a few months back, just before the site went down. some people even think that it's not a question of whether or not the Emperor was trying to ascend; it's why, not if. it's interesting to see how staunch certain people can be.

anyway, to an extent, I agree with you; I dont think the Emperor was selfish and/or evil either. i do however, happily entertain the notion that he was trying to ascend. i believe this because, whether he was trying to or not, I believe that his overall plan was to defeat chaos one way or another, and if that required ascension, then fine. how else could someone fight the chaos gods? the only evidence we've ever had of direct battle with them is from the Eldar pantheon: namely Khaine. and even he lost. so if the Emperor feels that he needs to ascend to truly defeat chaos, then i can happily believe that that was his motive. I simply believe that whatever he was doing, it was for the aim of defeating chaos, whether his methods may have seemed selfish/wrong/unlikely or not. so as far as im concerned, the ascension theory is perfectly valid, just not necessarily for the reasons that a lot of people back it.

MvS
11-02-2010, 21:35
Some good discussions that explore many of these themes here:

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=235100

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=117885

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=85819

:)

gloriousbattle
16-07-2010, 02:12
Here's a vote for the Sensei, the Illuminati and the Star Child. I had a lot of fun running a Sensei Warband, especially after he redeemed a Chaos renegade. Smacked 'ole Khorne in the puss right hard that day!

Hunger
16-07-2010, 12:14
retconnaissance

I don't care about the Star Child, or the Sensei, but I am going to petition the OED to make that an official word.

Vikingkingq
16-07-2010, 16:52
I feel somewhat ambivalent about the whole thing. On the one hand, I really like the idea of the Emperor either being reborn/waking up/becoming a Warp God. On the other hand, I really don't like the whole Sensei, and the Illuminati are frankly no longer compatible with other chunks of the background.

The idea of potential renewal of the Imperium, and the massive irony that this could actually lead to a massive civil war - this fits the bill as what can only be described as grimhope. That's why I really like the background about Cypher collecting pieces of the Lion Sword en route to the Golden Throne - that's got a nice, mysterious, Arthurian ring to it.

The problem about the Sensei is that they're boring - humans who are immortal and superspecial who don't really do much except get hunted and wait to get killed to revive the Emperor. Compared to the Thorian lore about Divine Avatars like Sebastian Thor, who show up and change the history of the Imperium, who might become Ecclesiarch or burn as a heretic, there isn't the same level of drama there.

The Illuminati might have made sense once. But you can't have a hidden society being persecuted by the Inquisition when there's the Exorcists - a whole chapter of what should be Illuminati who were basically created by the Ordo Malleus to help them fight daemons.

And that's the problem with the Inquisition War series - it's got some amazing ideas in it, but they weren't executed with any discipline, and the result is really uneven.

Philip S
16-07-2010, 20:12
what's everyone's view on the current state of the Star Child Theory?
Nothing really dies in 40K background - even the old Space Marine novel is available from the BL as print on demand. It may make a comeback one day.

As for the Emperor I think he is Zeus (some of my idea are here (http://www.philipsibbering.com/WH40KRP/40K__12_Primarchs.shtml))

Philip.

AndrewGPaul
17-07-2010, 13:31
Even if it's not canon any more, swathes of the Space Marine novel are still in canon; the Index Astartes article included all the high ranking Chapter officers - Chapter Master Vladimir Pugh, Chaplain Lo Chang and Chief Librarian Franz Grenstein - and their missing organs and habits of scrimshaw and use of the pain glove. Plus, Captain d'Arquebus is in Harlequin and Chaos Child.

Vikingkingq, why are you putting the blame on the Inquisition trilogy? Ian Watson really didn't make up much at all, apart from the Hydra conspiracy, and all the thematic contradictions you mention only occurred well after those novels were written.

The Sensei are a bit more interesting than you describe them, IMO. They're basically traditional "knights in shining armour" - effectively Jedi - and their appearance and their treatment by the agents of the Imperium are an interesting way of showing just how 40K differs from more traditional heroic tales and settings.

Malice313
17-07-2010, 13:58
From Realms of Chaos: The Lost and the Damned, page 185...

This is a good point. A lot of credit for the Star Child stuff seems to be given to Ian Watson in this thread, but the LatD not only pre-dates it, but has actual game mechanics.

I never really minded the Star Child stuff all that much. If the Emperor thought it was a good idea to make 20 clones of himself that were full of human fallibility and then lost them for a couple to thousand years, I figure he may have been stupid enough to knock up a few chick way back in his youth.


Gav Thorpe agrees with me

Well speaking of:


... there's still bits of it floating around, like a bad smell...

Gav Thorpe is a hack who writes predictable, jingoistic pap that borders dangerously on plagiarism and would have gotten a "D" on a year 9 free essay assignment. He also produced, by far, the most unbalanced army lists ever printed. His leaving GW was a day of rejoicing.

Vikingkingq
17-07-2010, 19:51
Vikingkingq, why are you putting the blame on the Inquisition trilogy? Ian Watson really didn't make up much at all, apart from the Hydra conspiracy, and all the thematic contradictions you mention only occurred well after those novels were written.

The Sensei are a bit more interesting than you describe them, IMO. They're basically traditional "knights in shining armour" - effectively Jedi - and their appearance and their treatment by the agents of the Imperium are an interesting way of showing just how 40K differs from more traditional heroic tales and settings.

It's the only major source I've actually read that deals with these things and it's the one I got pointed to when I asked questions in the past. If Watson was just working from background as it was, then my problem is more with the execution of the plot in that trilogy.

And I think it is a matter of later stuff creating contradictions, but I just find the latter versions more compelling. Like the Sensei - ok, knights in shining armor, but not as interesting as Sebastian Thor and other Divine Avatars (and/or Living Saints) and Thorians running around trying to protect them against Monodominants or Amalathians trying to kill them, or Horusians trying to use them as daemonhosts, and uncertainty as to whether these are powerful psykers or being aided by strange forces (such as St. Drusus' case) or the real deal.

The conflict is less binary in the latter material, I guess is what I'm getting at.

Pug118
18-07-2010, 14:41
Doesn't the fluff for Cypher (Dark Angels Renegade / Chaos Marine) tie into and perpetuate the Star Child myth?

As far as the Sensie go, I always thought they were a bit of a nod towards a certain group of Laser Sword carrying chaps. ;)

Kage2020
18-07-2010, 15:56
There never is a "right" answer with this type of question, only preference and interpretation. Of course, there are going to be those that disagree with that, but that's kind of the point. ;)

On my own behalf, I like the Illuminati, the Star Child, and the Sensei (in that order). I don't see a problem with it, or at least no more than some minor revisions to the story can help improve it and integrate it into the 'fluff.' Certainly it's not more contentious than, say, the 'fluff' from the Realms of Chaos: Lost and the Damned that has humanity creating the Khorne, Tzeentch, and Nurgle, something that most five year olds figured out was a bit fishy all things considered.

The question remains: Do you like them? If not, then as the fans are want to do, we'll enthusiastically argue that the material is pap, the author is the thrice-damned aborted fetus of Lilith, and so on. If you like it? The material is closer to the "spirit of 40k," or whatever. It's kind of fun to read, especially since I've done it myself. Oh the joys.

The Sensei are not one of my favourite parts of the 'fluff' as they stand, but I've come to terms with them. For me they are less accidents of birth and more scintilla shot off from the Emperor's aura; fragments of his power given form; a doppelganger, changeling or whatever. So, in a form they are very similar to the "divine fragments" of power, or the "Divine Avatars" that Vikingkingq mentions. There are even lesser versions out there, leaching off an energy source rather than having their own--let's call them astropaths. :D

Certainly it's not hard to make them a bit more interesting, perhaps even a bit more "grim." Of course, one wouldn't want to make them all dark and grim just because it's the 40k universe, a place where even babies are born with a lasgun in hand and cursing the enemies of humanity. :shifty:

Is that "40k?" No idea. I'm not sure that anyone else can say either, though I'm fairly sure that some is going to... ;)

The Illuminati? Ancient secret society? How can you go wrong with secret societies? 40k could profit from more of these. In fact, it does. It's just some of them aren't really that secret--the Ordo's of the Inquisition, Chaos Cults, power factions, etc. Secret society of individuals that were formerly possessed and, through dint of that common experience, have banded together with other like-minded individuals. It's not the same as the Exorcists since the're a different sodality, and one that is likely seriously in trouble if they even twitch the wrong way. They don't believe the same thing as the Illuminati. No worries there since I'm fairly sure that not all of the Illuminati believe exactly the same thing.

The Star Child? Love it. The Emperor is (mostly) dead--an undead monstrosity fueled by a sense of duty of unimaginable proportions. Key-stone consciousness and soul separated from the supporting consciousness of the Shaman, which now are bound to the Golden Throne where through psychic vampirism create a pseudo-soul which they use to guide and protect humanity. Meanwhile the Star Child waits in the warp, where one day it will be born again as a physical messiah, not a warp god.

On the other hand, the dark Twin forms in the warp, wrought by the collective misworship of the Emperor by an unimaginable number of humans for ten millennia. A god of revenge, anger, and destruction. Burning with hatred for anything that is different from humanity...

... Or something like that. Then again I've always found that, if you want to, it's not really that hard to integrate the various editions together. You fuse the bits that you find cool about the modern stuff, draw out the bits that you like from the older material, then mash them together with a bit of spit and hope. Of course, it's fan crap (as I'm sure some think of it) but with little guidance presented from the 'fluff' this is what is commonly left for the, well, fans.

As always, though, YMMV (and that's not a bad thing).

Kage

Karl MkVI
18-07-2010, 16:20
Then again I've always found that, if you want to, it's not really that hard to integrate the various editions together. You fuse the bits that you find cool about the modern stuff, draw out the bits that you like from the older material, then mash them together with a bit of spit and hope.

Kage

this is exactly true. from a post by myself in another thread:



if you're interested, my personal theory about the Emperor is this:

the Emperor is the manifested reincarnation of the last few Old Ones, who either passed down their spirits to the shamans (those who became the Emperor), or actually were the shamans, the shamans of earth being the last few remaining Old Ones, hiding on earth. they used humanity because of their enormous psychic potential.

the Emperor is the Last Great Weapon of the Old Ones; their final gambit to try to defeat chaos, and all evil for that matter (C'tan included). with the knowledge of the Old Ones passed down to him, this theory explains how he knew of the Void Dragon's power, and how he found the golden throne, how he knew of the webway, etc.

the Emperor did indeed intend to ascend to a form of 'godhood', and was 'using' humanity as a tool via which he would try to achieve this. but he wasn't using them because he was corrupt or greedy; he was doing it to save all life from Chaos. after all, what price is the sacrifice of one fledgling race such as humanity, when the entire galaxy, or even the entire universe, is at stake?

the Emperor was using humanity, and was trying to 'become a god'. but he was doing it for a higher purpose, not for any selfish means.

think of it like this; the Emperor was created by the Old Ones as their last deperate effort to defeat chaos. He was a weapon. humanity was his ammunition.

that's what I think, anyway. :) and yes, unfortunately, my theory postulates that the Emperor failed, when Horus crippled him and left the ability to save the galaxy beyond him. Chaos damaged the Old Ones' final weapon beyond repair, leaving the final gambit of the Old Ones in ruins. Chaos won...

for the record, i actually hope that there are no conspiracies, and that the Emperor was fighting for good, not trying to 'become a god' etc. but, if there must be conspiracies, then this is my take.

my point is that Kage is right; you can mash fluff together, as I have somewhat done in the theory put forward in this self-quotation, if that is what pleases you.

Kage, out of interest, may I ask your view on the 30k Emperor? are you a 'conspiracy' theorist, or would you, like me, prefer it if he was simply a (rather extraordinary) man trying to save humanity? love your theory about present day Star-Child stuff btw. not sure I agree with the existence of the dark twin, but definitely the 'light twin', as it were :D

Malice313
18-07-2010, 16:51
for the record, i actually hope that there are no conspiracies, and that the Emperor was fighting for good, not trying to 'become a god

Most of the Great Crusade stuff seems to have a slant of the Emperor being more secular than religious.

...the way I've read it at least.

I kind of like the idea of his great work not turning out as he would have planned.

Kage2020
18-07-2010, 17:10
Kage, out of interest, may I ask your view on the 30k Emperor? are you a 'conspiracy' theorist, or would you, like me, prefer it if he was simply a (rather extraordinary) man trying to save humanity?
I'm somewhat less original than many when it comes to the pre-Ascension Emperor. I view him as the New Man--the product of the coupling of an incredibly powerful psyker with the "Shaman Synergy." They provided the singular consciousness/soul of the "Emperor" with all of his power, turning him into a super-charged dynamo. Physically, however, he was a normal human. Perhaps homo sapiens superior, but certainly not a 10' hulking monstrosity that many envisage.

No conspiracy theories. The information form Xenology is one of those things that I don't bother to incorporate into my personal interpretation.


not sure I agree with the existence of the dark twin, but definitely the 'light twin', as it were :D
That's fine. Despite my preference for avoiding "grimdarkery nonsense," as it is I find the idea that the Emperor was wangling for being a "god of light" to be a bit too peaches and light. That and I like the idea that the Adeptus Ministorum is a sick perversion and perhaps one of the greatest travesties to have ever visited humanity. :D

Again, though, YMMV.

Kage

Karl MkVI
18-07-2010, 17:21
Most of the Great Crusade stuff seems to have a slant of the Emperor being more secular than religious.

well, yes, you're absolutely right... but that wasn't what my post was getting at.



No conspiracy theories. The information form Xenology is one of those things that I don't bother to incorporate into my personal interpretation.


by this, you mean the implication that he is connected to the Old Ones in some manner (I haven't rad the book, but have gathered enough info I think; this is part of what spawned my own personal theory about the Emperor's origins)?



That's fine. Despite my preference for avoiding "grimdarkery nonsense," as it is I find the idea that the Emperor was wangling for being a "god of light" to be a bit too peaches and light.

fair enough, and you may well be right. The Dark Twin is a very interesting theory (I've seen you band it around before :)), but I'm just not sure if there are two seperate warp identities for the Emperor. it's a very interesting notion though, and well thought through.


I like the idea that the Adeptus Ministorum is a sick perversion and perhaps one of the greatest travesties to have ever visited humanity. :D

love this :D



Again, though, YMMV.

forgive me, but what does this stand for? im so uncultured :). though i get the impression that it's another way of saying 'IMO'..?

in which case; oh yes, as always! :)

MT Bucket
02-03-2014, 23:16
Well, at the risk of reviving this seemingly long-dead debate, it looks like some of this is possibly being revived / referenced in the HH novels.

HORUS HERESY NOVEL SPOILERS AHEAD! IF YOU DON'T WANT TO KNOW THE RESULT LOOK AWAY NOW....







Malcador's ancient 'Order' uses the stylised 'I' as its symbol. This doesn't stand for Inquisition (they don't appear to exist in 30k until Malcador's 'agents' are gathered to do his bidding and use his symbol as their permission slip). They are also very closely linked to the Emperor at that time. So - Illuminati anyone?

Also, the apparently immortal beings known as John Grammaticus and Oll Persson. Contenders as Sensei?

Perrin
02-03-2014, 23:23
Perpetuals might be Sensei, though I think there is evidence that they aren't connected to the Emperor and possibly pre-date him. I think maybe they are more to do with the Old Ones, or maybe shaman that didn't join to form the Emperor.

As for the Illuminati, they pop up in some of Dan Abnett's work, linked with Enuncia.