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Azazel
07-02-2006, 01:49
Yo! I had the Bloodthirster and my Khorne Daemon Prince in mind while thinking about there Frenzy.

Frenzy - Unit must Charge any enemy in Charge Range. If you don't declare a Charge yourself, in the Compulsory Movement Phase you must measure (if in reasonable doubt). Any enemy within the Units Charge range must then be Charged.

Ok. Is that spot on?

Large Target - Can see over units (friend or foe) smaller than itself. And unit behind that as long as it is the same size or larger.

Ok. Is that right?

I ask because my Frenzied Daemon Prince would be able to Charge over enemy units. But not before I got to check every enemy unit within 20" of him. Seems a little too good to be true.

In the mean time I'll try find a picture to better explain what I mean.

Trunks
07-02-2006, 03:23
Demon Princes are not large targets and thus cannot charge over enemy units unless the demon prince or the enemy unit is sitting on a hill.

The Bloodthirster is a large target and can charge over enemy units (or friendly ones for that matter), as long as the units he is charging over are not Large targets themselves. So, the Bloodthirster can charge over a unit of cavalry to get to a unit of swordsmen, but he cannot charge over a Giant to get to a unit of goblins. Obviously there must be room for the Bloodthirster to fit in base contact with the unit (you can't jump into a 1" gap between units).

Also, note that frenzy does not force you to charge the closest target (this is a common misconception for some reason). If there are multiple enemy units within 20" of the Bloodthirster, within his 90° charge arc, you may charge any one of them you wish to charge.

You may declare a charge when all charges are declared with your frenzied flier. It is rather pointless though, because in the compulsory phase you measure 20" out from him in his charge arc to see all units that he can charge and then you have to charge one of them anyway.

The only reason to declare a charge with a frenzied model is to force yourself to fail a charge (declaring a charge at something that is obviously outside of your charge range), so that you don't have to charge an enemy unit if you don't want to (A unit of Witch Elves declares a charge at infantry 20" away when there is a unit of fast cavalry attempting to bait them into a charge 4" away). This is against the spirit of the game though.

mageith
07-02-2006, 04:44
[QUOTE=Trunks]You may declare a charge when all charges are declared with your frenzied flier. It is rather pointless though, because in the compulsory phase you measure 20" out
---Actually it's still the Declare charge subphase. Or at least Gav thinks so:

"Forced frenzy charges follow this sequence: 1) Declare normal charges; 2) Measure to see if frenzied units must charge, declare charges for those that have to; 3) Move chargers; 4) Move frenzied chargers. (Per Gav Thorpe - Warhammer Design Team, as quoted in the Direwolf FAQ)"

Mage Ith

Ganymede
07-02-2006, 06:12
Yeah... the book says that compulsory movement is always random. Stuff like frenzy and impetuousness and such still happen in the declare chargers and move chargers, just after all other voluntary actions.

Bal
07-02-2006, 07:23
But what if the only target in range is the one your enemy has put up for sacrifice....the one you don't want to charge...can you just declare a charge at a target about 21" away, so that'll be a failed charge then...

Festus
07-02-2006, 08:30
Hi

You may not declare a charge that is obviously going to fail.

The operative word being *obviously*, whatever that really means :(

Greetings
FEstus

Bal
11-02-2006, 21:09
does the rulebook say that?
Wat is the pagenumber?

mageith
11-02-2006, 22:22
does the rulebook say that?
Wat is the pagenumber?
265 "…Where it is blindingly obvious a unit would be unable to reach its target a player is not permitted to declare a charge."

warlord hack'a
12-02-2006, 08:03
Quote: "Forced frenzy charges follow this sequence: 1) Declare normal charges; 2) Measure to see if frenzied units must charge, declare charges for those that have to; 3) Move chargers; 4) Move frenzied chargers. (Per Gav Thorpe - Warhammer Design Team, as quoted in the Direwolf FAQ)"

Now my question is, where do the charge reactions of the enemy units being charged fit in? It says in the rulebook that: "after you declare your charges but before you measure whether chargers are within range, your opponent declares how each charged unit will respond" (rulebook page 45).
Now combine this with the text further down on the same page under 'Flee': "As soon as a unit declares that it is fleeing, it is moved directly away from charging enemies by 2d6 inch or 3d6 inch... ...Move the fleeing models immediately by the distance indicated by the diceroll."
And finally the text under Frenzy, page 84: "After charges have been declared, measure to see if any enemies are within charge reach of any frenzied troops" (all underlines are from me and not in the rulebook).

So before we measure the opponent has to declare reactions and if he flees he must flee immediately, but if we look at the compulsory charge of frenzied troops we have to measure.. So I think the most realistic sequence would be:
1) declare charges, 2) opponent declares charge reactions, 3) measure for frenzied troops within range and declare their compulsory charges (do not do this before point 2) as otherwise you measure, find out that your entire battlefront might be out of charge reach and this might influence the charge reactions of the opponent), 4) opponent declares charge reactions of units that are now also being charged, 5) opponent roles distance for those units that flee as a charge reaction and shoots with those that chose Stand& shoot as a charge reaction (these actions happen "before moving the chargers", it does not say however, if it happens before or after the Compulsory movement phase, AAAAGGGHHH more confusion..)
From here the normal sequence picks up again.

However, this is how I would solve it, it does not state so in the rulebook, nor in Gav Thorpe's comments above..

Festus
12-02-2006, 08:41
Hi

Charge reactions are declared and done after *all* charges have been declared. Even after *Frenzied declarations*.
But before the compulsory move sub-phase.

Easy, really...

Greetings
Festus

warlord hack'a
12-02-2006, 08:58
so this could leave me at a disadvantage as my enemy may declare his reactions AFTER I have measured to see if frenzied troops are within range.. I mean, I normally work with one front, all units marching in line, frenzied and normal troopers mixed up, so when frenzy is out of range then all my infantry units are out of range and this might influence charge reaction..

On the other hand I am stretching it a bit as normally I have nightgobbo units in bewteen the HtH blocks, so the enemy often gets halted at an exact 8" away, ready for the countercharge, that is not fair also..

Thanks for the clarification, I just wanted to know for the Warhammer tournament coming summer.

Festus
12-02-2006, 10:04
Hi

On the other hand I am stretching it a bit as normally I have nightgobbo units in bewteen the HtH blocks, so the enemy often gets halted at an exact 8" away, ready for the countercharge, that is not fair also...

I like to point out that the unit stopped by NG Fanatics will in nearly all cases be *just outside of the charge range of the NGs*!

As the unit has to stop exactly 8" away from the NGs, and the NGs themselves only have an 8" charge range, they will only ever be in range if the enemy unit is exactly opposite the NGs. Any angling, even by the slightest amount, will result in the NGs not being able to charge, as a wheel - even ever so slightly - will result in a failed charge.

Greetings
Festus

T10
12-02-2006, 10:14
Indeed.

The closest model of the approaching unit will need to be directly in front of the Night Goblin unit for this to work.

However, I am sure it *will* work from time to time.

You can also put a Battle Standard with the Waaagh! Banner in the unit for +1 to Move...

-T10

warlord hack'a
13-02-2006, 14:30
gentlemen (I presume by the way, maybe you are gentleladies),

you are not seriously suggesting that I should charge with my nightgoblins!! What a hideous idea! I was talking about my blocks of armed to the teeth savage orcs that are next to my blocks of nightgoblins..

p.s. of course I do charge with my gobbo's also but to retain the element of surprise I will never admit this. Oops, just did

p.p.s. as long as there is one enemy model of the enemy in a straight line 8"in front of my unit I can charge, as any wheel will fail my charge I can not wheel at all, resulting in clipping which I personally hate.. So I can charge as long as the enemy is straight in front by only an inch overlap or so (or even less)