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Baron Von Rotten
10-02-2010, 04:43
The fellas in my group are trying to convince me that the Dreaded 13th Spell (cast on a 25+) can be cast with two or three dice, as long as double sixes are rolled.

Somebody please verify to me that this is a crock........

The Rulebook clearly states on page 107, that the casting dice must add up to minimum casting value for the spell to be successful. After this is attained, if double 6's are showing, it has been cast with Irresistable Force.

It seems pretty cut and dry to me. However, I can't find it in any Errata or FAQ.

Any suggestions???

Necromancy Black
10-02-2010, 05:08
Read your rules again. They clearly say that if there is a double 6 the spell is cast successfully.

So, it's not crock at all.

T10
10-02-2010, 12:20
Indeed.

In my opinion the spell has been assigned its high casting value in order to justify its effects. It seems likely that wizards capable of casting the spell will stick to using 3d6 and hope for Irresistible Force rather than trying to meet the actual casting value.

Also, has anyone noticed that the casting value is in fact illegal? The rule book sets a cap on casting value "15+".

-T10

Condottiere
10-02-2010, 12:59
Never noticed that; however, the Army Book does take precedence over the BRB.

Bac5665
10-02-2010, 13:08
The 15+ rule is literally a waste of ink. Army books take precidence, and even if there was a spell in the BRB with 18+ to cast, it still wouldn't be illegal because that would be nonsensical. Its that kind of rule and sloppy understanding of how rules interact that drives me crazy with GW.

T10
10-02-2010, 13:11
Hmph. If GW published a unit of infantry armed with lances, should we break the rules and allow them a +2 Strength bonus on the turn they charge?

-T10

Bac5665
10-02-2010, 13:15
If GW did that, I think that would be reasonable until the FAQ came out, which is what I would expect would happen with the hypothetical spell too. The common practice where I play is that when GW makes impossible rules, just do what sounds right until a FAQ fixes it. If there were no FAQ, I'm sure we'd house-rule it somehow.

Condottiere
10-02-2010, 13:16
If they can build up enough momentum.

Necromancy Black
10-02-2010, 13:25
The 15+ rule might be to stop thing making a spells casting value go higher then 15+, but with a couple spells already higher then 15+ that wouldn't make sense any more.

Griefbringer
10-02-2010, 13:58
Doh, I had not even really spotted that "maximum 15" mention about the casting values.

Interesting to see what happens with that when the 8th edition comes out.

lopezpie
10-02-2010, 14:12
ya im very certain double 6's get the spell off i dont know how they would expect to cast anyother high level spells :)

Condottiere
10-02-2010, 15:35
I wonder if that was an aborted attempt to make any Dispel Die cast value of 15 and above sufficient to neutralize a spell.

medevilmike
10-02-2010, 15:48
My usual opponent is a skaven player, I have never been through that shenanigans of throw less dice than possible to cast a spell....I.E. 5dice at 13th and so on.
If someone tried to pull a 2 or 3 dice cast on a 25 plus spell It would prolly end in an argument and the end of the game.
I love the 13th spell...it has gone off a total of 2 times thru all the games I have played against skaven, once on a miscast and once just cast outright,It is devastating. Throwing 2 or 3 dice for the chance of a IF is just bull.
Even at my gaming group and tournoments I have been to, noone has ever tried to pull any nonsense like that.

Wapniak
10-02-2010, 16:05
As far as I know you may not attempt to cast a spell with fewer dice than it is possible to cast the spell with. So a minimum of 2 dice for 12+ spell / 3 dice for 18+ casting spell dice.

However I can't recall where was that said.

Condottiere
10-02-2010, 16:08
Dark Elf FAQ, regarding unspent PD from their default spell.

theunwantedbeing
10-02-2010, 16:11
As far as I know you may not attempt to cast a spell with fewer dice than it is possible to cast the spell with. So a minimum of 2 dice for 12+ spell / 3 dice for 18+ casting spell dice.

However I can't recall where was that said.

I think you mean minimum of 2 dice for 7+, 3 dice for 13+, 4 dice for 19+, assuming no bonuses to cast of course.

Tae
10-02-2010, 16:22
I think you mean minimum of 2 dice for 7+, 3 dice for 13+, 4 dice for 19+, assuming no bonuses to cast of course.

Would this not just be 2 dice for 7+ ?

No 3 dice for etc. since, as pointed out above, 2 dice rolling boxcars can (and do) cast any spell regardless of casting value.

Makaber
10-02-2010, 16:48
The rulebook also says the Repeater Crossbow has no Armour Piercing rule. Good new for everybody! Almost.

Wapniak
10-02-2010, 16:57
I think you mean minimum of 2 dice for 7+, 3 dice for 13+, 4 dice for 19+, assuming no bonuses to cast of course.

Yes, exactly - I was a bit of tired and wrote some nonsesne. Thanks for catching up and clearing that.

Nurgling Chieftain
10-02-2010, 18:45
Since the rules explicitly state that a roll of double-sixes is a successful casting (in addition to being cast with Irresistable Force), it is legal to attempt to cast any spell on two dice, as there is always a chance of success (short of an effect in play that eliminates that possibility).

This is part of the basic rules and not really a legitimate grounds for stopping games and having fits about, IMO.

Necromancy Black
11-02-2010, 00:14
It's the same as if my opponent rolls 5 dice and get's an 18 to cast a spell. If I've only got 2 dice to dispel with I can still use them because if I manage a double 6 the spell is automatically dispelled.

Besides, it's perfectly fine. At 2 and 3 dice the chance to miscast is equal. Anything higher and the miscast chance increases more then the IF chance.

Ultimate Life Form
11-02-2010, 00:26
Since the rules explicitly state that a roll of double-sixes is a successful casting (in addition to being cast with Irresistable Force), it is legal to attempt to cast any spell on two dice, as there is always a chance of success (short of an effect in play that eliminates that possibility).

This is part of the basic rules and not really a legitimate grounds for stopping games and having fits about, IMO.

Anyone, please sticky that one. I'm SO sick and tired of this stupid argument. If someone refused to play by the most basicest of rules from the BRB, it would be me who would pack his stuff and never play this person again.

rtunian
11-02-2010, 12:36
At 2 and 3 dice the chance to miscast is equal. Anything higher and the miscast chance increases more then the IF chance.

this is only because of what happens if you roll double 6 and double 1 at the same time, right? (that being, a miscast not an if-cast)

for a minute, i was looking at this post saying "wtf double 6 happens at same rate as double 1's!!" :) tricksy tricksy

Necromancy Black
11-02-2010, 14:13
Yep. I've seen a few tables and graphs with probability and casting magic. Once you get 4 or more dice you get rolls with both double 1 and double 6 which results in a miscast. The amount of times this happens only increases with dice.

It's also partly why you get the highest chance of casting a spell that needs 8+ to cast on 3 dice. Casting on 4 will slightly decrease your chance due to there being more chance to miscast. Of course the average value of a successful cast does increase with 4 dice, so it's a trade off you have to think about.

Noxlin
16-02-2010, 05:38
Dark Elf FAQ, regarding unspent PD from their default spell.

As mentioned, You cannot attempt to cast a spell without being able to reach the casting value of the spell, reguardless of the fact that double 6's auto cast.

to cast a 25+ you still need to be able to roll it, therefore 5 dice minimum to cast, even tho if you had rolled two you could have auto cast it. GWS have said you need to actually be able to reach the casting value on the dice.

pretty much clears things up, because even with 5 dice casting a 25+ spell is hard, therefore making the auto cast double 6's still usefull, while maintaining the high chance of chaos, eg miscasts.

Necromancy Black
16-02-2010, 05:51
Incorrect, that's not even close to what it says.

The question asked can you attempt to cast a spell when you cannot succeed. No mention of reaching the casting value is found in either the question or answer, all they are asking is can you roll for a spell when there is no chance of the spell actually casting.

Because IF says the spell is successfully cast, rolling double 6 will succeed in casting the spell so as per the FAQ that will be fine.

This has other impacts, such as if your wizard is affected by a Slann's becalming you must roll at least 3 dice for a 12+ spell as otherwise there is zero chance of succeeding.

So you can still roll for the 25+ with only 2 dice as double 6 means there is a chance of it succeeding.

Noxlin
16-02-2010, 07:41
Just reread the codex, and your right. I thought the put the entry in to stop double casting high cast spells, but even that wouldnt make sense, as 6+6 = 12, which is the highest spell in all the lores avaliable to them.

The point they are making in the faq is just that one dice, (which can never I.F) cant be used to attempt to cast a spell that it will never succeede.

Necromancy Black
16-02-2010, 08:21
Yep, though I'm starting to think of a bunch of situations where things can get weird. Like having 2 dice left, only being able to cast cleansing flare but the ring of hotek is within 12". No way to succeed so not allowed the cast the spell.

A slightly less stupid one would be pandemonium and trying to cast a 12+ on 2 dice. In this case you are well aware that you can't do it, so you can't try and force a miscast to use something like Cupped Hands to bounce it.

Also a 12 on the miscast gets the spell off, so is there still a chance to cast it?

Honestly in all but the 2nd case I would say no. You can't be made aware of the ring before casting and the entire argument is half thrown out the door on the last point (though still can't do it with 1 dice).