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Bladelord
10-02-2010, 19:15
So, I'll start collecting a Skaven army this month, mostly Skryre to begin with. Tactics for skaven overall would be great if you helped me with.:)

So, this the list I came up with:
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=244392

So a small summery over what I want to field.

Grey Seer on Screaming Bell:
Is it worth it or should he just go on foot? Lore of Ruin or Plague? Atm I'll probably go Ruin with him.

Warlock Engineer:
How to equip them? Are Warlock Optics worth the pts & what about brace of warp pistols?

Plague Priest:
150pts for a Furnace or not? any good item combos?

Clanrats:
How big should the units be? 25+ sounds good but it's easy killing 6 rats...

Stormvermin:
Use them instead of a unit of Clanrats? How big?

Weapon Teams:
Tactics overall for all of them.

Giant Rats:
If they're in the list just because I want to flank with them what's the number of models, & a unit of 28 rats,2 packmasters & a Master Moulder worth using?

Night Runners:
Is it worth fielding an expensive unit of 10 (compared to giant rats & slaves) ?

Rat Swarms & Rat Ogres:
Tactics overall. Maximum unit size?

Jezzail Teams:
Expensive like hell but 36'' str6 -4 save woah! worth their pts cost?

Poisoned Wind Globadiers:
Maximum number to field in a single unit?

Rare Choises:
I won't field the Abomination but what about the other 3, the cannon still worth using?

enygma7
11-02-2010, 00:32
In terms of general tactics I think there are two main approaches to skaven. The direct way is to load out on heavy hitters (doomwheels, abominations, furnaces, plague monks) and beat your opponents down in HTH. The other is the "death by a thousand cuts" method where you rely on support units to eliminate your opponent's support (missile troops, flack, wizards etc.) and weaken their combat units so that your ranked infantry can beat them in combat. This second method takes a lot more skill to use but is more fun I think.


Grey Seer on Screaming Bell:
Is it worth it or should he just go on foot? Lore of Ruin or Plague? Atm I'll probably go Ruin with him.?

In competetive terms, I'd go on foot and take lore of ruin. Plague has some very good spells but it is too short ranged for a grey seer who doesn't want to be getting too close. The bell is very expensive and random, its more a fun unit.



Warlock Engineer:
How to equip them? Are Warlock Optics worth the pts & what about brace of warp pistols?

No and no.



Plague Priest:
150pts for a Furnace or not? any good item combos?


It seems to main reason to take him and gives you a very hard hitting and reliable unit. It does need good support though to stop it charging things you don't want to and stop enemy charging the flanks. I'd consider the foul pendant since with a massive base the plague priest is very vulnerable to being attacked and killed.



Clanrats:
How big should the units be? 25+ sounds good but it's easy killing 6 rats...


I'd say 25 min, I prefer 30.



Stormvermin:
Use them instead of a unit of Clanrats? How big?


You can do. Don't view them as elite infantry, rather see them as more resilient infantry (nearly always use hand weapon and shield) who can beat low to mid quality enemies.



Weapon Teams:
Tactics overall for all of them.


Warpfire thrower for mass destruction of infantry and multi-wound units and plague mortar for a steady stream of fire, especially against well armoured units (this was made for chaos warriors). The doomflayer is good to help your units actually win combats (goes well with storm vermin). Many people don't rate the ratling gun but I like them for flack/light cavalry removal, also good against small units of elite infantry (swordmasters). If you intend to take weapons teams I'd advise take as many as possible and use the storm banner to protect them from enemy shooting. Combine with screening units (keep them behind their parent units if needed) to keep them safe as they are vulnerable to shooting and magic.



Giant Rats:
If they're in the list just because I want to flank with them what's the number of models, & a unit of 28 rats,2 packmasters & a Master Moulder worth using?


I take them in units of 6 with a packmaster as super cheap flack, but they can also be good as units of 14 plus packmasters and combined with death frenzy for 42 attacks! I wouldn't take units as you describe personally, since the job of fully ranked infantry is better handled by clanrats and stormvermin in my view who have better resilience (skaven infantry can't kill much, their best contribution to winning combats is not to die too much) but I know others play it differently.



Night Runners:
Is it worth fielding an expensive unit of 10 (compared to giant rats & slaves) ?


Worth it? Not really. I take them anyway for variety and they aren't bad for duelling with enemy flack. I just can't escape the reality that 2 units of 20 slaves would do better.



Rat Swarms & Rat Ogres:
Tactics overall. Maximum unit size?


Rat swarms can be good in moderate sized units for guarding flanks, acting as a speedbump and going after missile units. Rat ogres I like as a unit of 4 with 3 packmasters and used as a medium hitter unit.



Jezzail Teams:
Expensive like hell but 36'' str6 -4 save woah! worth their pts cost?


Nope. They cost almost as much as knights, miss with 2/3 of their shots and die if the enemy has any missile fire or magic to speak of. You can't even protect them with the storm banner without risking hurting their own shooting. I can think of better uses for the points.



Poisoned Wind Globadiers:
Maximum number to field in a single unit?


Depends what you want them for. I'm considering adding a unit of 10-12 with champion and deathglobe to my army. Keep back until you get a chance to maul a unit or knights, a monster or other high value target.



Rare Choises:
I won't field the Abomination but what about the other 3, the cannon still worth using?
[/QUOTE]

The doomwheel is a great rare choice, combining the roles of good chariot, terror causes and monster killer (3 auto hitting shooting attacks doing d6 wounds each!). Also not bad at mauling knights and skirmishers. The lightening cannon is OK but mainly for fun. Can't say I've ever given much consideration to the catapult, but it fulfils a similar role to the poison wind mortar.

Hope that helps!

Sygerrik
11-02-2010, 14:44
All of the rare choices are great in the Skaven book, the severe awesomeness of the Doomwheel and HPA tend to overshadow the other two a bit. Giant Rat packs are a good way of bulking out your drops to ensure you can put your stuff where you want it, avoiding your opponent's counters. Globadiers run away at the drop of a hat (no ranks, no ItP, and they need to be close to the enemy) but are superb at dealing with Steam Tanks, Dragons and other high-T armored targets; paradoxically all of their best targets cause Terror, which is a bit of a handicap to the cowardly little guys.

All of your RnF troops should be geared out for survivability as much as possible (except for Slaves, don't bother gearing them out) since their job is to provide SCR for your weapon teams, Ogres, HPA, PCBs etc.

Bladelord
11-02-2010, 17:54
So this is what I probably will use in my list:


Characters:
Grey Seer feels like a must:P, I just love magic. Footslogger or Bell I haven't decided yet.
Warlock Eng. with musket+Condenser.
Kamikaze lock with pistol+Doom Rocket.
Plague Priest w/ flail & maybe Furnace.

Core Units:
2-4 Clanrat units at 30 w/ shields & FC, weapon teams ofcourse.:)
2-3 mobs of 20 Slaves w/ musician.
2+ Giant Rat packs at 1 packmaster+5-6 Giant Rats.
I like the idea of rat swarms so if I got the pts I will field 2 small units of 3 swarms in each.

1 Fat pack of giant rats joined by a g. wpn wielding Master Moulder if I'll have spare pts.

Special Units:
10-12 Globadiers, champ w/ Death Globe (maybe even a mortar if someone knows an easy way to convert one)
6 Jezzails, champ. (I just love the models & they're Skryre:D)
5-8 Gutter Runners.
2-4 Rat Ogres+packmasters.

A unit of Plague Monks joined by a Furnace to form the middle of the army would be awesome but dunno if I got the pts for it (& what about the survivability of a unit like this?). Rat Ogres will probably make room for these beauties if I'll use them.

Rare Units:
2 Doomwheels.

Or 2 Warp Lightning Cannons. I already own 2 of these & love the template rules for the new Skaven.:evilgrin:


It seems to main reason to take him and gives you a very hard hitting and reliable unit.

But with just 1 Furnace it will get shot to death because of the poor survivability? (no ward save like the Bell)


Globadiers run away at the drop of a hat

What do you actually mean with ''drop of a hat''?


Giant Rat packs are a good way of bulking out your drops to ensure you can put your stuff where you want it, avoiding your opponent's counters.

How many small packs of giant rats should I run then? more than 4?

cob
11-02-2010, 18:15
Bell is really quite good if you build your army around it. I used bell + furnace at recent ukgt and it worked a charm, both act as very solid anvils, infact the bell is probably better at it since its all but impossible to destroy in combat and isn't frenzied. Then censer bearers/doomwheels rolled into the flanks and won me the game =]. Dont underestimate the potential of 360 /large target line of sight too.

Cannon is very good, if the FAQ used at GT are anything to go by then the doomwheel will overshadow the other two choices, but otherwise doomwheel/cannon is very solid + cheap option.

Sygerrik
11-02-2010, 18:49
Drop of a hat = they have Skaven Ld but no ranks, they tend to range ahead of the rest of the army so they aren't often in General range, and their main targets often cause terror.

Bladelord
11-02-2010, 20:50
Bell is really quite good if you build your army around it. I used bell + furnace at recent ukgt and it worked a charm, both act as very solid anvils, infact the bell is probably better at it since its all but impossible to destroy in combat and isn't frenzied.

That was what I thought. Will include it if I get the spare pts.


Drop of a hat = they have Skaven Ld but no ranks, they tend to range ahead of the rest of the army so they aren't often in General range, and their main targets often cause terror.

Thanks then I understand what you said. That's what I thought but wasn't sure:P

AtmaTheWanderer
11-02-2010, 22:28
Bell is a must take if you take a Grey Seer. Absolutely no justification can be made for why you would not pay the <x> points for a 4+ ward save (better then a run of the mill grey seer can obtain through items), making a unit unbreakable, magic resistance 2, fear, a rat ogre worth of attacks, Impact hits on the charge, limited immunity to close combat attacks/denying your opponent the ability to challenge, a 6+ armor save, and 360 line of sight to probably damn near the entire battlefield. I cannot fathom why anyone would say this is a "fun" or "fluffy" choice, the unbreakable unit of rats ALONE has turned the tide of countless battles.

The ringing effects are gravy. 100% pure gravy. Watch dwarf players cry as you one-shot their castled-up war machines by rolling 3 dice and getting a bit lucky.

Woops, slipped up with a points cost, corrected.

Bladelord
11-02-2010, 23:06
How well would an army of 2 Furnaces & 1 Screaming Bell make? It got a nice magic defence & 3 unbreakable blocks of rats. But that's maybe too easy to outmaneuvre?

Are 30 clanrats w/ shields enough to form a bodyguard for the Screaming Bell?

deggaroth
12-02-2010, 03:23
How well would an army of 2 Furnaces & 1 Screaming Bell make? It got a nice magic defence & 3 unbreakable blocks of rats. But that's maybe too easy to outmaneuvre?

Are 30 clanrats w/ shields enough to form a bodyguard for the Screaming Bell?

I don't think I would recommend it. I play really fast DE and WE armies, and I basically deal with these configurations by running circles around them, while firing hails of rxb/wood elf arrows. With spending so many points on those three blocks, you will probably be hard pressed to field enough units to deal with fast type of armies. Furthermore, having two of your unbreakable blocks frenzied makes things easier on me. At most, I would do the Bell and the Furnace. Of course, it also depends on what point value your making your roster; at 4000 pts, 2 furnaces and a bell will probably be just dandy. :)

Bladelord
12-02-2010, 08:04
What about the size of the clanrats?:)


. With spending so many points on those three blocks, you will probably be hard pressed to field enough units to deal with fast type of armies. It also depends on what point value your making.

I just made a list with a Bell+2 Furnaces. 2x28 plague monks, 1 carrying the Storm banner. 30 Clanrats w/ a Ratling Gun. a lvl.2 lock with Warp-Engergy Condenser & loads of small stuff to kill those easy pesky things able to doom this sort of army (like fast elven lists:p). With a 360 degree from his Bell & an Engineer running around +2 lvl Priests you will have a hard time in the magic phase. 2250 are the pts value.

But now if you would field this insanely expensive triad of unbreakable blocks, what supportive stuff would you add?

WinterWolf
13-02-2010, 02:17
Despite what others may say...

Jezzails are always a must (nice to see you have the unit of 6). 36' range str6 -4 armour saves will scare the hell out of anything on the table. Anything. Sure they cost almost as much as Knighst ect...but those knights will be dead from Jezzail fire long before they are worth anything. Enemy fire? Even longbows will have to march for a turn before they are a threat to your jezzails and you DO get a 5+ save against them. Not too shabby.

To continue...anything that is considered "fun" by its random nature belongs in the Skaven army. To be honest, for all those out there building "reliable" skaven forces I truly fear you may have missed the point. If I wanted a reliable solid army type, I;d have Elves on the table. I play my skaven to scream about treachery, curse my cowardly underlings and so forth. If you havent got some of those lovely and terrifyingly self destructive random elements in your Skaven army...it just aint Skaven. Not to mention that when that weird stuff actually works right...you win the game in truly horrific glory.

Clanrats always in Blocks of 30. Stormvermin, yes these too..also a nice big block (again I have 30). Yes the Cannon is worth having and yes the Doomwheel can be wonderful. Warpfire throwers and Ratling guns are my Weapon teams of choice.

Warlock Optics I'm not overly enarmoured with, but I always give my warlock a Gun of some sort.

Dantès
13-02-2010, 08:05
Jezzails, like the poster above mentioned, do come in handy more than you would think. Yes, they are expensive, but pop 3 knights and the unit has made its point cost back. That 36'' range ensures that they'll get their shots off first turn, before your spells have range, and I have been able to force a unit of fast cav that could have given me trouble later to panic. They WILL make their points back and they ARE an effective unit, if you pick the right targets. SHOOT THE BIG UNS

I've just been keeping my army at the 1500 point level recently, but to boost it up to 2000 I'm definitely planning on putting in a Grey Seer on screaming bell, and throwing him in my unit of 30 stormvermin. An unbreakable unit of 30 stormvermin with MR2 and all the other goodies the Bell offers, plus the grey seer on top with 360 LOS is just way too good to pass up. Plus it's an awesome centerpiece to your army.

I run all my infantry blocks (minus slaves) in the aforementioned 30 models per unit. It's just the magic number. Slaves stay at 21. Everything else needs the 30 to help with LD, ranks, and ablative wounds. I don't think I would go less than thirty for any reason, and probably wouldn't go over 30, making 30 the magic number.

Out of all the weapons teams, my personal preference is the Warpfire Thrower. Most people rage about how awesome the PWMortar is, but the WFT just works better for me.

Don't bother with Night Runners, spend the extra and go for Gutter Runners. That way, you have the option of bringing them up from behind your opponent as well as scouting with them and/or flanking with them. Much more useful. They may not be able to take away ranks but a unit of 10 night runners probably won't make it to combat with 5 models left anyway.

Doomwheel. Take it. AWESOME. When it works that is ;)

If you want flankers, don't bother with giant rats. You want your clanrats/slaves to be the anvil, and a heavy hitter to be the hammer. That what Ogres do and clanrats can't. Sure, they get plenty of attacks, but at a low str they're just as average as clanrats, and won't kill too much more. The Ogres will net you at least 2 kills if you run 3 of them and a packmaster. Ogres just seem much better suited. Of course the best would probably be HPA (but youre not taking it) and close second Doomwheel, if you have good aim :p (and dont mind losing a few rats to warp lightning).

Globadiers, as has been said before, are pretty bad when they get shot at. I'm hoping to be able to include 10 in my army soon, and ill be running them behind a unit of clanrats or slaves, so when they get in combat with a tough unit i can just lob the globes overhead and take out a few.

Really im just reiterating what everyone else in here has been saying. At the end of the day it comes down to what YOU want to field, what YOU like the look of, and what YOU think are the coolest units. Everything is the book is really very good, so you won't really handicap yourself by taking or not taking a certain unit