PDA

View Full Version : To kill a Dwarf



DAFace
07-02-2006, 15:58
Hi I'm an Empire player and I'm hacing trouble murdering the vertically challenged ones. I've never won a game against them, old or new edition. They were overpowered already, and they made them better! I've tried:

Beating them in a shooting match
Charging head on
Flanking them
Magicking them away
A combination of the above

Nothing works! My 2,000pts army contains:

Thyrus Gormann (rules on GW site, opponent's permission)
Level 2 Battle Wizard
Captain on warhorse
8 Knights
7 White Wolves
30 Spearmen with 2 8-man Handgunner detachments
16 Handgunners/Champion with Hochland Long Rifle
Cannon
Mortar

This army is very successful, but not against Dwarves...
How do you go about murdering them?

Crazy Harborc
07-02-2006, 17:17
Well, the boomer with the 5 inch pie pan templet is less likely to harm T4 shorties.

I suggest limiting shooting unit sizes to 10 maximum size.

Do you use "the SAME army makeup" for every battle? Try a detachment of swordsmen. Swords can do more harm in HtH than no armour handgunners.

Have your cav ride circles around the slow moving shorties. You cav moving at 14 per turn can be deployed farther from your center. Force your opponent to spead his units further apart. He just may be too far away to have one unit help another (I mean 6 inches on a charge!!:eek: )

Jim Reaper
07-02-2006, 18:21
Sad to say I think Thyrus Gormann is probably a waste of time. Dwarfs are very very difficult to out-magic even if you go magic heavy (I've shut down a 3000 pt Lizardmen army with Lord Kroak and a 2nd Gen Slann in a joke game). Even one Runesmith with the Rune of Balance means you only have one more power dice than he has dispel dice.

The other problem as I see it with that army is that you just don't have enough combat punch. Two units of knights is useful but Dwarfs are about the best army there is at taking a charge from such a unit and holding.

The best way I can think of taking out Dwarfs with that list is trying to take the enemy out one unit at a time with the Knights (perhaps one unit in the flank and one in the front if you can manage it). That way you're able to remove his units before the rest of his army can react. The only problem is that if he holds once (Ironbreakers, Hammerers, etc) you're pretty much stuffed.

DAFace
07-02-2006, 18:25
"the SAME army makeup"

Yeah, why shouldn't I? I explanied already that this army usually wins. I don't have the funds to constantly buy new things, I have to work with what I've got for now. It's unsportsmanlike and often considered cheating to produce a new list to counter a specific enemy.

I've tried running circles around them, but heavy cavalry doesn't work that well for that- I'm going to convert some Pistoliers soon from Militia models, that'll help my game a lot.

You're right in saying the Mortar doesn't do so good against T4 troops, but it still has advantages, if I deploy it behind a hill or a wood nothig in the Dwarf army except Grudge Throwers and Miners (which I haven't encountered yet) can attack it. Rangers aren't a problem. The stunted ones get shot to bits- they're lucky if they get to charge second turn, even as scouts.

My main problem is with the Warriors and Longbeards protecting the artillery- the war machines keep pummelling my forces while the shieldwalls protect them. Try to flank them, they turn to face me with another unit protecting against a countercharge from another unit.

Dakkagor
07-02-2006, 18:27
Thyrus Gormann (rules on GW site, opponent's permission)
Level 2 Battle Wizard

Theres your problem, these points sinks are useless against dwarfs. Either totally overpower them in the magic phase or just don't bother. having played orcs against dwarfs recently, my shaman did not get of a single spell that wasn't countered by dwarfish dispel dice. but then again, he was only a lv 2 wizard. If I'd had a better model selection, I would have taken another unit of orcs in his place.

Generally, you need to outflank him and bring overwhelming pressure down in one place, then roll his line before he can redeploy. I reckon some flagelants (Sp?) might serve you well here: they are strong, unbreakable (or there abouts) and can dish out loads of str5 hits.


Beating them in a shooting match
Charging head on
Flanking them
Magicking them away
A combination of the above

What you need to do with the dwarves is to stove in the middle of their line with total and unstoppable force, while tangling their flanks. This something orcs and goblins excel at: watching dwarfs trying to navigate round fanatics or chew through 40 night goblins while the centre of their line is having their short, bearded faces kicked in by 40 angry orcs is a joy to behold. I'd suggest tying up his flanks with outriders and militia, while swordsmen and knights smash his centre then roll his line.

Good luck, and may you collect many beards!

DAFace
07-02-2006, 18:38
Theres your problem, these points sinks are useless against dwarfs.

You don't realise how powerful Thyrus is, do you? He generates 6 power dice a turn! That's 10 in total. My magic almost always gets through with such overwhelming force, with him wasting dispel dice on bound spells, but it isn't enough before the Dwarven fire effects unacceptable losses.


Good luck, and may you collect many beards!

That'll be the day...

Crazy Harborc
07-02-2006, 19:22
"Yeah, why shouldn't I? I explanied already that this army usually wins. I don't have the funds to constantly buy new things, I have to work with what I've got for now. It's unsportsmanlike and often considered cheating to produce a new list to counter a specific enemy."

It sounds like that one(Dwarf player) opponent has an army that works everytime against your "constantly the same" army. Does he "always" use the same army list (composition)??

As far as not being sportsman like to change a list to target a specific opponent......no gamer I know/play against has ever raised the issue. BUT if that's how you and your regular opponents view it then that's the way you should do it. Opinions/attitudes can and often do vary.

Dakkagor
07-02-2006, 20:27
You don't realise how powerful Thyrus is, do you? He generates 6 power dice a turn! That's 10 in total. My magic almost always gets through with such overwhelming force, with him wasting dispel dice on bound spells, but it isn't enough before the Dwarven fire effects unacceptable losses.

no, but I haven't played empire in donkeys years. Infact, last time I played empire, he was an official character!

If dwarf artillery is your problem, then why not switch wizards? a lore of metal wizard that can scupper armour and remove his ability to use those deadly ranged weapons for a turn or two could be invaluable. Isn't there a lore of metal special character? His spell selection should be prefect for shutting down the technologically adept dwarves.


Yeah, why shouldn't I? I explanied already that this army usually wins. I don't have the funds to constantly buy new things, I have to work with what I've got for now. It's unsportsmanlike and often considered cheating to produce a new list to counter a specific enemy.

While I won't rewrite a list everytime I march to war, a few changes can help win the day. Be adaptable, and you may be pleasently surprised :). for instance, next time I fight dwarves, I may include some wolf riders to go warmachine hunting, a boss for my trolls (daft beggars kept wandering off. . . good place to dump the shaman I reckon) and more fanatics. I'm changing the list by maybe one or two units while keeping its theme solid (Ie: big blocks of orcs backed up by gobbos and artillery in a true green swarm)

leeoaks
07-02-2006, 22:59
even 10 power dice are a waste...a dwarf with one runesmith and a rune has 6 disel...a lor5d choice has plus one, so 7....from one character! its a waste! you'll get one maybe 2 spells, if lucky, off. mean while his warmachines out match yours and troops are more than a match in both combat and shooting...dwarfs have one major weakness moving....have you tried hiding...(i know this seems cowardly) but your a general your out gunned and fought if he moves he risks an embarasing flanking loss....if he doesnt move you draw.....better than losing!dont always think in a standard way your the general, do you want to keep getting beaten!

Da GoBBo
08-02-2006, 09:54
Since your the one goin to charge, I dont really see a use for spearman. Get some swordman (u can use your spearman as proxies to try them out of course). And where are your pikeman? Spears are not that affective, but 4 ranks dishing out damage isnt nice. Be carefull with wielding them.

I agree on the charcters. Keep your chars as cheap as possible and get more knights or preferably morerank and file units. And yer attachments are awfully good of course

Akuma
08-02-2006, 11:29
Maybe you are just lame player ?? - I never had any problem's with dwarfs - before or after the new book - in fact thay are widly considered to be one of less powerfull armys ...

If you want advice - go for shooting contest - take 4 cannons - you can get his machines of by turn 3 - 2 hellblasters - if he takes moving army - that would sum up the warmachines

Go for 4 mounted characters - empire flying circuss - if he gets an anvil - you will get points for it very fast

load the rest in hand gunners and 2 blocks of infantry - just in case

the list that would wipe a butt of any dwarf out there - sure it's siding but what a player that uses sC cares about fair play ...

Azazel
08-02-2006, 16:14
That special Character is pretty good. Maybe even worth 500 points. But in a 2000 points game thats a quarter of your total points. Too much for an Empire Army. Save him for 3000 points games.

Get a regular Wizard Lord or Grandmaster. And spend what ever points you have left over on something different. Like another Warmachine or unit of flankers.

DAFace
08-02-2006, 18:20
Since your the one goin to charge, I dont really see a use for spearman. Get some swordman (u can use your spearman as proxies to try them out of course). And where are your pikeman? Spears are not that affective, but 4 ranks dishing out damage isnt nice. Be carefull with wielding them.

I had that idea too, I'll proxy the spearmen for Dogs of War Pikemen and use two big units of Hangunners instead of Detachments.

I don't have a regular opponent that plays Dwarves. I thought I made that clear. It's the race in general that I can't beat.

I've tried the lore of metal, but I've had bad experiences with it. I would like to use Balthasar Gelt, but he has to be on a Pegasus. I would use him if I could have him on a horse, it's really stupid.

warlord hack'a
08-02-2006, 19:28
I like the fact that you play with the same army against different opponents, just like at a Tournament. So your question is not: how to beat dwarves (to which the easiest solution lies in 'no armour save allowed' things combined with outflanking), your question is: how to beat dwarves with my list.

Well, for one thing: concentrate fire, of your attachments, the handgun unit and magic. Throw it all on one unit, preferably one of his two outer ones (there's always an outer unit!).

Then use your big blocks of spearmen (oh yeah, I would get another block of spearmen or just men, as long as it is a block) and park them against his blocks of ironclad battleprowess ASAP. Dwarves are very good at stopping a charge from things that are normally not stopped by anything (like knights), but in actual hth they are not horribly good.
Let me rephrase that: he will kill more of your units with his artillery and shooting than he will in hth (he will still kill in hth however!) and as soon as you are in hth then he will not be allowed to shoot at you!

Use your artillery to target his warmachines (also use the hochland longrifle, thought you were allowed to shoot anybody with that thing right?) and shut them down.

In the meantime, keep your cavalry out of sight (otherwise they will get shot) and take them the long way around bushes etc to get to his flank). Or simply let them hang behind till your big blocks are almost in hth, then run them forward from behind the hill/forest/other LOS blocker and combine a charge with the spearmen. Do not expect your spearmen to kill a single dwarf with their S3, they are just there to stop the dwarves from turning to face the knights. Now you will get a round of artillery on your knight units so learn to live with it and put both of them on the same flank (if one gets shot to pieces, you will have a 2nd left and you need only one knight unit to do the job.), rush forward and charge a flank, then roll up from there.

So important: keep your knight out of sight, get your spearmen in combat asap, use them to tie down a dwarf unit on one of his flanks, rush forward with your knights and get in the flank (and do not take two turns of artillery fire with your knights).

On the whole you have a defensive army: magic users, shooters, spearmen. In this case you have to use them offensively otherwise you are buggered, you never ever win an defensive battle from dem stunties, that's their thing!

warlord hack'a
08-02-2006, 19:35
and me being an O&G player, I never have a shortage of 'no armour save allowed' things: fanatics, rock lobbers, doom divers, spear chukka's (and a general with S5 and a 2h sword= S7 = almost no armour save left..). So I love dwarves...;-)