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g0ddy
07-02-2006, 18:13
The Backstory :


Unfortunately, the squad of 10 marines could most likely quite easily lift a devilfish up off the ground, conversly one attempting to smash said squad of marines underneith it would probably take considerably more damage itself than its doing in return.

A squad of 10, 700-800 pound bionically enhanced super humans wearing just as much armour as your tank is nothing to shake a stick at - or to use as a landing pad.

- g0ddy


A modern day apc (which is smaller than the most 40k apcs) is around 20 tons, meaning your marines would need to lift 2000 pounds each. Unlikely at strength 4.

Marines probably weigh around 400 or so pounds and can probably lift around 800 at max. Hell if marines could toss a devilfish around with 10 of them they would have a strength of 6 or probably more.

Besides, the tank would just hover low enough so you could only see under kneeling or prone, whats your marine going to do? Charge while crouched? Come on.

Seriously, take a broom and stick it on two boxes 4 feet off the ground, then try hurl yourself at full speed at someone on the other side of the of the broom without knocking it down.

This started in a thread on the 40k Tactics Forums about "Fish o' Fury" - In a attempt to avoid thread-hijacking Im bringing the discussion here.

How tall is John?
How much does John wiegh?
How powerful is John?
How much can John lift?
etc.

Basically what do we feel would be appropriate physical characteristics of a space marine?

- g0ddy

g0ddy
07-02-2006, 18:30
Ill start things off with my reply to azimaiths post.


A modern day apc (which is smaller than the most 40k apcs) is around 20 tons, meaning your marines would need to lift 2000 pounds each. Unlikely at strength 4.

The game inquisitor puts a space marines normal strength - taking the power armour into account as slightly over a guardsmen wielding a powerfist.


Marines probably weigh around 400 or so pounds and can probably lift around 800 at max. Hell if marines could toss a devilfish around with 10 of them they would have a strength of 6 or probably more.

With a Strength of 6 they could tear it apart with their bare hands - there would be no need to toss it down to the next sand dune.

Do you know what a "muscular" 6 foot tall man looks like? whom probably wieghs in the neighbourhood of 250 pounds? can he lift over his own body wieght? Most likely yes. Now increase the density of said person (increased bone mass, more bone in more places, increased muscular density) - add another foot of hieght. 300-350 or even 400 pounds is VERY reasonable and thats completely UNARMOURED.

A standard american space suit wieghs aproximately 350 pounds, it is made as light as possible - mostly consisting of things like kevlar and alluminium.

The number I came up with for the weight of a space marine is derived from Laden and Unladen Transport Vehicles. Which by current standards of sensibily, technology and well to some degree physics, saying a space marine in full power armour ONLY weighs 700-800 pounds is HIGHLY improbable.

Does your car wiegh more than that a Gorilla? probably atleast twice as much depending on your vehicle. Can said Gorilla pick up your car over its head adn throw it down the block? No. But could this very same Gorilla tear the door off its hinges? or perhaps flip the car over with relative ease? Yes.

Given how the space marines power armour - being something of a robotic/cybernetic exo-skeleton - would probably be supporting most of said weight as opposed to putting direct stress on the musculature and bones of the marine. His ability to lift dead weight could very likely surpass 1000 lbs.

My copy of IAv3 is currently on loan so I cannot double check, but my memory wants to say a devilfish is around 25-30 tons. 25-30 tons with its anti-grav generator/engines inactive and the vehicle sitting as deadweight on the tarmac. I would imagine its "live weight" while hoving above the ground to be considerably less however I wouldnt want to say it would be "boyant".

Another appropriate point to bring to light would be - in the game of 40k, the protective qualities of power armour (or any other 3+ save for that matter) are comparable to an armour value of 10-11. This, in the sense that, when enclosed transport vehicles (eg Rhino) have a large hatch opened to enable people to stand up and fire out of are not considered to be open-topped. Whereas a Chimera with guardsmen poking out of is.

- g0ddy

Mantis23
08-02-2006, 06:00
Firstly let me say that I think the FoF tactic is "realistic," and that the idea of the marines forcibly moving the tank out of the way is "unrealistic."
Sure, maybe if the Devilfish was parked and powered down a squad of marines could pick it up and put it on top of the Tau's High School gymnasium as a prank. I've seen a bunch of football players move somebody's car around the parking lot before. I'll believe that much.
But we're not talking about a dead 'Fish here, this one's active, which means it's got momentum. Consult your basic physics formulas, and this starts to serve as a problem to make this thing move where it doesn't want to. I seriously doubt the football players could pick up the same car when it's moving. OK, but marines are stubborn and they're going to try to move a Devilfish which is going to use the full thrust of it's engines to counter them. Now, add in the fact that this is the middle of combat, they're being shot at, the ground is a torn up, muddy battlefield and not a nice paved surface - not gonna happen.
So, you're still arguing that, like a gorilla ripping a car door off, the marines could damage the tank - well of course they can. That's called assaulting, it's in the rules, and marines have a chance of disabling a Devilfish with their bare hands if they hit the rear armor.

g0ddy
08-02-2006, 18:35
Hmmm Okay - well that wasnt really where i was hoping to go with this...

All the Devil Fish/FoF etc talk aside - what do we think would be reasonable statistics
for said space marine. Im not really worried about the plausability of my example, it has just got me thinking of what really could happen.

We know how tall they are supposed to be, and can preform some seemingly fantastic feats, but if we were to try and get specific - what would be appropriate?

Would a squad of marines tipping up the side of a tank really be that unreasonable?

- g0ddy

Kymmerus
09-02-2006, 04:25
This does at least make me wonder... how much can your average space marine lift? I mean there are 250lb olympic weightlifters picking up 550+lbs on a regular basis... I'd contend that even the weakest of marines could do that on a bad day... if its a matter of upscaling a marines lifting capacity in proportion to his body weight then saying that they're able to lift double their body weight (lets assume 400lb) then we have marines able to dead lift 800+lbs before power armour. I'll just assume that the armour does give them only a minor boost in ability and we're looking at 1000lbs or 1 tonne of lifting ability for your average marine... This sounds like a good number to me at any rate... a genetically engineered superman being able to double the greatest feats of strength performed by extraordinary examples of normal humans just seems right...

The only wrinkle I suppose then is why isn't a marine double the average humans (or above average human's) strength? I'll contend that the strength stat in 40K relates more to a marine's abstracted ability to do damage with his bare hands. While better than a normal human's, he's still suffering from the issues of the human body form, IE he's not like a tyranid with razor sharp claws or the like, so he's lacking in his ability to do damage in combat due to the limits of the human body form, power armour or no... not just because he's lacking superhuman strength....

So to get back to the original thought that means you'll need roughly 20 to 25 marines to lift up a 25 tonne tank... and I could certainly see a squad of 10 marines lifting the side of a tank up off the ground fairly easily...

This also leaves a bit of play in my books for truely awe-inspiring feats of strength done by marines in the the most dire and desparate circumstances (the 100lb woman lifting the car to free her trapped child kind of stories) IE totally rare and freakish events of marine strength...

(oops assumed in my metric addled mind that 1 tonne is 1000lbs, actually its like 2200lbs) So you're looking at double the numbers of Marines for moving tanks around...

Tanith Ghost
09-02-2006, 04:41
We're not talking about a 'modern apc'. It gets on my nerves when people go to 'well a modern example'. This is 40 ******* k. Not 'modern'.

On the subject of a squad of marines lifting a devilfish- They most likely could flip it over with a concerted effort. Failing that, why lift it when they can just dent it up with their own weight plus their armor? A nice, hard elbow smash on the driver's window could cause the crew some problems. Or hitting the dirt til the 'fish passes and then ripping open the back hatch to throw a few krak grenades in. Jumping atop the 'fish and popping the commander's hatch
would also work. A belt of frags thrown in followed by slamming the hatch shut again would result in a dead devilfish crew.

dumbuket
09-02-2006, 10:14
Strength stats in the game are funny. S4 isn't twice as strong as S2... it's probably on an exponential scale. So a S4 marine is much, much stronger than a S3 guardsman. With tyranids, the explanation is that the poisons in the toxin sacs add to the strength.

Purge The Weak
09-02-2006, 10:49
http://s4.invisionfree.com/The_Smoking_Bolter/index.php?showtopic=2483

Check that out. I think we covered the weight problems in that thread...