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Garion
14-02-2010, 15:47
I have been away from Warhammer since 1995 and over the last year have been collecting and painting an Ogre Kingdom army. I have amassed a 2500pts army however I do not know how to construct a good OK army.

This is the first list I wrote which will probably get slated, so please all suggestions are welcome, but go easy on me I would consider my self a noob again.

Tyrant
Heavy Armour
Tenderiser
Great Skull Armour
1 thiefstone

Bruiser
Heavy Armour
Skullplucker
DeathCheat
Iron Fist

Butcher
Bangstick
Dispell Scroll
2 Tooth Gnoblars

Butcher
BloodCleaver
Halfling Cook Book
2 Tooth Gnoblars

Slave Giant

3 Yhetees

2 Leadbelchers

2 Leadbelchers

6 Bulls
Ironfist

9 Ironguts
1 belower
contains bruiser

5 Ironguts
1 belower
Rag banner
contains Tyrant

8 Gnoblar Trappers

So please critique my army, all feedback is great as I really don't know I'm doing yet. Also is there any point in the scrap launcher or Gnoblars as they seem pointless to me?

smallgreenguy
14-02-2010, 22:00
Heya. I play a 2250 ogre list and can offer some critique.

Tyrant and tenderiser is a good choice and nearly always taken. Wyrdstone necklace is also another staple that is very good, I would consider that on him as well. In addition I run gutmaw on my tyrant but that's personal preference.

First off, tooth gnoblars are generally considered wasted points on butchers. I would also advise to either go with 3 butchers, or 2 bruisers and one butcher as a scroll caddy to maximize either melée or casting. I myself run 3 butchers, as I find their PD and DD more useful than the added melée of the bruisers; ironguts are fine on their own. Really the only time I ever see bruisers taken are to be used as bsb for a maneater deathstar.

Ironguts are generally more useful when run in MSU. Multiple small units. Big units of any ogre unit is likely to cause you a lot of problems. If you lose a unit of 9 ironguts, that's a crapload of pts for the opponent. You can take your 14 ironguts and turn them into 4
units of 3 wide.

The unit of 3 yhetees is great, though I don't personally use them.

2 units of 2 leadbelchers is good. I would drop your bulls from 6 to 3. Leadbelchers and bulls are best used as bait. Bait them and flee, and have your irongut unit countercharge in the flank. Again why small units work better - they are more mobile.

I would get rid of the slave giant, and replace it with 2 gorgers. Though I agree the slave giant is tons of fun. Ogres biggest problem are war machine. 2 gorgers help to fill this anti war machine gap greatly.

8 trappers is great. They add much needed utility to ogres. They are a sacrificial unit. Use them to march block, harass, pretty much anything you need. And it won't matter if they die.

I personally hate scraplaunchers and don't know anyone who uses them. Gnoblar fighters have their place but I only take them in 2250+ games.

You have a good start. I would recommend something more along the lines of... (on iPhone so can't do math ATM, but this is just a general guideline.)

tyrant, tenderiser, wyrdstone neck, whatever else you want for 30 pts
butcher, bangstick
butcher, halfling cookbook
butcher, 2 scrolls

3 bulls, no upgrades, musician

2 belchers, musician
2 belchers, musician

3 ironguts, champ, musician
3 ironguts, champ, musician
3 ironguts, champ, musician

3 yhetees

2 gorgers

Good start though and good luck! You may also want to check out ogrestronghold.com they have some great information for starting ogres.

smallgreenguy
14-02-2010, 22:01
Sorry, forgot to add 8 trappers as well. Never leave home without them!! ;)

t-crane123
14-02-2010, 22:21
I play ogres and i think that taking ironguts or bulls in big units is much better than taking them in small ones. This is because they are generally more powerful on the charge and almost always win combat when they charge. Also if you run units of three then one ogre dies and you are taking panic checks so gun lines can just spread out there fire power and cause every unit in your army to take a panic test.

If i were you I would consider dropping some leadbelchers for a gorger seeing as they are easily the best ogre unit for there points. I would also drop the bruiser because he is not needed when you already have a tyrant. And take either a hunter or a scrap launcher ofr a little extra fire power.

Gaargod
14-02-2010, 23:18
Sorry, but smallgreenguy has it completely right, and t-crane123 is so very wrong.

Ogres are M6. This is fast - for infantry. Cavalry on the other hand, don't care. Ironguts are strong as hell, but any decent heavy cav will run right over them (unless they have a tyrant in ,and even then its not sure).

Think about it. Ironguts are some 50 odd pts each. A second rank costs you ~250pts, which is just there to soak up wounds. 3 units of 3 will almost always outperform one of 9. Yes, units of 3 will take panic checks easier, but that's why there's many of them. Redundancy and all that - but the moment your expensive unit of death fails something, game over.

Also, scraplaunchers are so not worth it. Hunters are way better, but expensive for what they do - generally, 3 ironguts will outperform him happily.

Bait and flee. Learn these words. They will be your life as an ogre general. Ogres are basically, when it comes down to it, unable to do a lot. Combo charge MSU, flank charges, hitting things with big sticks repeatedly (otherwise known as grinding, when your active CR ~ their SCR, on average. Engage, slowly grind their unit down until their SCR is gone. Kinda risky with great weapons, but can work. Also works with gorgers, just from unbreakable), these are what ogres can do.

So. Musicians on everything. Everything. Your ironguts can and should flee a charge that will destroy them (unless it puts you in a position worth it). Ogre LD is poor/average in most cases, so might as well boost it. Standards and champions are not worth it (20pts for +1 attack on models which come with 3?). The only exception to this is in the tyrant's ironguts unit, who get a champ to redirect challenges if necessary.

Leadbelchers and gorgers are your friends. 4x2 leadbelchers (i rate them over yhetees) and 2 gorgers are a sensible base.
Tyrant and 3 butchers, with at least 2 scrolls, work for your charactrs. Tyrant gets tenderiser and wyrdstone, because its just damm good.
Min bulls, with musician. Additional hand weapons if you have the points.
And then with the remainder spam 3 ironguts with musician (and one with champ). Anything less than 4 units and you're probably doing something wrong.

A friend used to run 10+ small units in his ogre army (git plays daemons now. To be fair, i kinda introduced power gaming to the group, so i suppose its fair enough /facepalm) - yes, individually they're not too hard to deal with... but on mass they can become irritating. People only have so many redirecters.

Garion
15-02-2010, 07:40
Thanks for the advice guys, so does this look better to you?
Also the reason I had the tooth gnoblars in was so I could spam the 1 dice spell casting for as long as my luck holds out, is this not a good idea?

Also I have 1 gorger painted but they seem to be quite a lot of points to spend on something that might not turn up until the 4th turn so I have not included one in the list, should I make some room for 1 or 2?

I know I have kept the giant in, but he looks like too much fun and he is also one of my best painted figures so I will stick with him until I become good enough to start paying highly competative games again.

Tyrant
Heavy Armour
Tenderiser
weirdstone neckless

Butcher
2 Dispell Scrolls

Butcher
Bangstick
Dispell Scroll


Butcher
BloodCleaver
Halfling Cook Book


Slave Giant

3 Yhetees

2 Leadbelchers
1 bellower

2 Leadbelchers
1 bellower

3 Bulls

3 Ironguts
1 bellower

3 Ironguts
1 bellower

3 Ironguts
1 bellower

3 Ironguts
1 bellower

3 Ironguts
1 bellower


8 Gnoblar Trappers

smallgreenguy
15-02-2010, 08:56
The list looks very good to me, about as good/competitive as an Ogre Kingdoms army is going to get! We take what we can get :P. Rule of thumb is either take 2 Gorgers or none. It's certainly fine to replace the 2 Gorgers with the Slave Giant if its your preference! Gorgers are point for point one of the best rare choices out there, but your point about not showing up until a late turn is certainly valid, and the reason why people either usually take 2 or none.

I myself would like to play an ogre army using a slave giant, haha! Absolutely nothing wrong with taking one of them as your rare choice over Gorgers.

The *only* thing I would really try to add is a bellower on your bull unit, simply for the +1 to rally since he will most likely be used as a bait and flee unit.

One other piece of advice I forgot to mention, is that taking Champions on Irongut units is sometimes a good idea, simply because it allows shooting to be randomized on them - so if you're opponent is a heavy shooting army, you might want to consider that.

Garion
15-02-2010, 09:04
Okay thanks for all the help, my final question is about the Tooth Gnobalrs. I thought it would be a good idea giving 2 to each of my butchers so I could safely roll 1 dice to cast spells until I rolled a 1 or 2 and then use a Tooth Gnoblar to make sure the spell worked. I thought this would be a good idea as it would mean that the opponenet would have more spells to dispell and increase the likelyhood of succesfully casting troll guts etc...
Is this a valid tactic or just me being dumb?

Red_Duke
15-02-2010, 09:29
Gotta say, personally i wouldnt bother with the slave giant, as he's proper ****. I actually quite like using maneaters, either with greatweapons or handguns, as while they're expensive it's quite nice to have something in the army that's immune to psych - especially when you get off stubborn on them! Gorgers are the standard however, and given their cost are probably the best choice.

character wise, i quite like a butcher with skull mantle and siegebreaker for some sneaky S7, plus braingobbler at -1 LD. I tend to give fighty characters luck gnoblars, but otherwise none. I also tend to have a few standards in the army as well so that i can have lookout gnoblars. MSU is all well and good until you face an army with cannons and all your characters get sniped off.

As far as im aware, on tooth gnoblars they don't help on a 1 or a 2, as the spell always fails on less than a 3 rolled (as with Vampire counts spam) I could be incorrect however if the Ogres do actually have a different rule on the matter! Generally though i don't rely too much on the spells anyway though, as they tend to get dispelled with depressing regularity, not to mention that if theres a useful one on a unit where it can do something, it almost always gets dispelled in the opponents turn.

I'd agree with pretty much everything Gaargod says btw - pretty solid advice throughout.

smallgreenguy
15-02-2010, 09:29
The problem with tooth gnoblars is that they have to be used *before* the spell is cast, which severely limits their usefulness. As it stands, if you sacrifice a tooth gnoblar before you roll, there is only a 1 in 6 chance that it will even do anything. If you roll a 1, an added +1 wont cast the spell for you, and if you roll a 3 or higher, you didn't need it anyways, so it really only serves you if you sacrifice it, get lucky, and roll a 2. If you could roll, and then use the tooth gnoblar, I would always take them, but unfortunately the only real useful gnoblar that was given to us in the book is the one that allows us to reroll an armor save on our tyrant.

Also agreed on that butchers are really there for the magic defense rather than reliably getting spells off, considering the best we can do is 8 PD. Though its cool, fun, and useful when it happens.

Garion
15-02-2010, 10:07
Wow in that case Tooth gnoblars are completely pointless.
So what would you add to this list to turn it into a 3000 point army.
Would you just add Skrag and 4 Gorgers, or would you just keep adding Iron Guts and a unit of Maneaters?

t-crane123
20-02-2010, 23:47
Gaargod I do not have it totally wrong!

My ogre list with LARGE units in is always extremely successful. I have only lost one game with it and the reason it lost was not due to the list but due to a tactical error.

And Gaargod I am not saying that the way that you play your ogre army is wrong I am just suggesting that there is more than one way to play a warhammer army. And taking large units of ogres with Full command and a butcher to give them regeneration has worked perfectly well for me. This works even better if you take Skraag.

I really couldn't care less weather or not smallgreenguy takes my advice or not. But I would rather you would not be dismissive of my advice and accept the fact that you need to be more open minded and learn that there is more than one way to play with a certain army!

beeblicon
22-02-2010, 04:50
Gotta say, personally i wouldnt bother with the slave giant, as he's proper ****. I actually quite like using maneaters, either with greatweapons or handguns

I think the longsword is better than a great weapon, the increase of ws is good (few troops in the game that you wont now be hitting on 3's) and the ap gives you an overall -3 to saves