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Volker the Mad Fiddler
14-02-2010, 20:18
Light meaning <33% of the army cost. Is such an army possible at 2K+ and if so, what would it look like? Thanks for any replies.

Sparowl
14-02-2010, 20:37
Last Fantasy tournament I attended I had just two characters, a cheap Slann (bsb and one discipline) and a Scar-vet with Jaguar Charm.

Worked out really well. When you spend all your points with Saurus and Kroxigor, you have a lot of units on the board.

Ultimate Life Form
14-02-2010, 20:39
Hmmm...

Chracter light army equals Magic light army, so we're talking about a battle list then. Analysis:

Skink Chiefs:
Threat factor negligible, only dangerous in certain specialized builds, like for example on top of Ancient Steg + Warspear. If you don't want to pull any tricks and simply want a solid list, these can easily be ignored. I've never run a Cheif in all my years and never felt something lacked.

Saurus Oldblood:
That one's really tough, but also really expensive. He is a bit better than a Scarvet, but not that much better as to be absolutely mandatory. There are many lists that solely rely on Scarvets to dish out the pain. What he does:
Slightly better stats and option on Carnosaur and some of the really mean weapons. If you think you don't need this, you can also go without one.

Saurus Scar Veteran:
These can really dish out pain and also be very resilient, especially on a Cold One. They also can take lots of mean weapons. Some people find that is enough. It's also a big points saving compared to the Oldblood.

Conclusion: No character is absolutely mandatory, but I find a Saurus Character tooled up for doing some insane damage is really worth it. There are some tougher enemies that your ordinary troops can't take care of, and that's where those come in. On the other hand, having too many of these is too costly again, so finding a balance is very important for Lizardmen. Personally I'd say one fully kitted out Scar Veteran on Cold One may be enough to deal with most unpleasent things, and then take a Scroll caddy as well. I hope that meets your criteria of a Character light army.

Keep in mind though that Lizardmen are an elite army, not a horde army so going against the spirit of the army and missing out on the best options may not be such a good idea.

Hiro Protagonist
14-02-2010, 21:40
Excellent analysis ULF. Personally i'd still lean toward having a magic option as Sparowl did.

A relatively young BSB Slann with one or two disciplines has several advantages, and teamed up with a single combat Scar-vet still falls well within the proposed point distribution. The Slann wont be what some of us are accustomed to but it ought to get some spells through now and then, given an offensive discipline. The BSB assists the rest of the battle list against several types of opponent without paying half as many points for someone else to bring one. The cost is slightly offset by replacing a scroll caddy skink, as well.

As such a Slann will not have the points for self-preservation disciplines, it makes some TG nearly mandatory. This shouldn't be a problem, though, with the number of points left to spend on units or monsters. It would also contribute to the more elite feel of the army. One ends up with a tough ItP unit that, should it perish, probably wont ruin the battle plan as much as usual. This force could be over 75% units.

Anyone out there think a heavily steg-themed, stripped down Slann and Engine list is competitively feasible?

w3rm
14-02-2010, 21:53
See Malorian's Itchy Buum Bat Reps for more on this.

Taishar
15-02-2010, 05:03
I bring a toad and two saurus characters. Even a capped out toad and a tooled out scar vet is under 33%. Honestly, you can live with just a slann if you want.


Cheers

Vsurma
15-02-2010, 05:57
Slann with "free dice per cast" bsb, plaque of tepok 315pts
Skink priest lv 2 with diadam 125pts

Gives you about 8-11 power dice and 5-7 dispell dice.
That should cover you magic offence and defence and still leaves you points for a CC character or 2.

Your slann will be vulnerable to miscasts though.

Alternatively you can go combat heavy with 2 CC characters and 1 lv skink priest with diadam and scroll.
It will cost you 150pts and give you 5 dispell dice and a scroll.

I played my last tournament with no heroes except a skink priest with diadam, though the bsb is quite nice so I recommend taking it in most cases.

happy_doctor
15-02-2010, 11:56
When going for character light builds, I think it's better to lower the threshold even more. Instead of <33% of characters, let's try to do it with less than a quarter of your points.

So, ask yourself, what do lizardmen characters add to the army that you can't get anywhere else?

-Leadership
-Magic Defense
-Immunity to fear (cold one riding scar-vets)
-Something to deal with Hydras and large stuff

The slann is always worth it thanks to his ld9 and BSB re-roll, so I'd suggest turning him into a magic defense platform. Give him the Becalming Cogitation discipline, a scroll and the Cube of Darkness and you've got decent magic defense, as well as 6 power dice to use in your magic phase.

Scar veterans on cold ones are a very good buy, so I'd include one of those as well. The standard build works nice: Burning Blade, Amulet of Itzl, Cold one, Light Armour, Shield.

So, for 530 points you get leadership, magic defense, (magic offense), immunity to fear where you need it and a can-opener. If you're really concerned about enemy characters, you can throw the Healing disipline in the mix, giving you a slann that can go toe-to-toe with dragons and the such.

In a 2250 points list, that leaves you with 1700 points to play with.

A sample army list would look like that:

HEROES:
-Slann Mage Priest, BSB, Becalming Cogitation, Transcendant Healing, Cube of Darkness, Dispel Scroll
-Saurus Scar-Veteran, Cold One, Shield, LA, Burning Blade of Chotec, Amulet of Itzl

CORE:
-15 Saurus Warriors, Spears, Standard, Musician
-15 Saurus Warriors, Spears, Standard, Musician
-15 Saurus Warriors, Spears, Standard, Musician
-11 Skink Cohort, Kroxigor, Musician
-11 Skink Cohort, Kroxigor, Musician
-11 Skink Cohort, Kroxigor, Musician
-3 Jungle Swarms
-3 Jungle Swarms

SPECIAL:
-3 Terradons
-3 Terradons

RARE:
-Ancient Stegadon

Lots of troops, redirectors and a couple of hard-hitters. Takes some getting used to, but it works.

Alternatively, you can just fit all the toys you want (salamanders, stegadons, terradons), then fill the points with some core.

scarvet
15-02-2010, 14:02
15 Saurus isn't good enough to hold any decent hammer. Slann also isn't protected at all.

I will suggest small Skink Cohort, bigger and smaller Saurus Block, and Scarvet on foot with Cold One hide.

The Ethereal Warbanner Slann is good for this army as well: decent magic defense, flexible, and can operate indepentently.

For this army I will also suggest Razordon hunting pack to thin down heavy cavalry.

WarmbloodedLizard
15-02-2010, 14:25
Slann (500pts)
+ - mystery
- rumination
- cogitation
+ - diadem
- 3 x scroll
+ BSB

SV (163pts)
+ - S
- LA
+ - CO
+ - BBBoC
- Itzl

663pts total

that gives you a decent magic phase (9PD, Whole Lore) with the possibility to completely shut down magic heavy armies, should the need arise (no 6es, 6DD, 3 Scroll).

the SV gives you magical anti-regen attacks in case you have to give up your magic phase and need them. (e.g. vs. VC invocation spam and wraiths.)


or even cheaper (@521pts):
2xlvl1 priest with 2 scrolls each (4DD, 4Scrolls)
2xScarvet with BBoC/SoM (one is BSB)

or crazy cheap(@308):
scarvet with BBoC + BSB
lvl2 Priest with diadem+scroll (4 DD, Scroll)

Bladelord
15-02-2010, 14:33
Here's a list I came up with, I dunno how competitive it is but would be fun playing it:)

Heroes:
Saurus Scar-Veteran, BSB, light armour, shield, Cold One, Burning Blade of Chotec, Carnosaur Pendant.
178pts.
Skink Priest, Dispel Scroll, Diadem of Power.
115pts.

Core Units:
18 Saurus Warriors, spears, Champion & Standard Bearer.
240pts.
16 Saurus Warriors, spears, Champion & Standard Bearer.
216pts.
12 Saurus Warriors, spears.
144pts.
21 Skink Cohorts.
105pts.
21 Skink Cohorts, Kroxigor.
160pts.
10 Skink Skirmishers.
70pts.
10 Skink Skirmishers.
70pts.
10 Skink Skirmishers.
70pts.

Special Units:
5 Chameleon Skinks.
75pts.
4 Terradon Riders.
120pts.
4 Terradon Riders.
120pts.
6 Saurus Cavalry, standard bearer, Huanchi's Blessed Totem.
245pts.

Rare Units:
2 Salamander Hunting Packs, 2 extra handlers.
160pts.
2 Salamander Hunting Packs, 2 extra handlers.
160pts.

2248pts.

Just 293pts on characters but still a decent magic defence.

Volker the Mad Fiddler
16-02-2010, 00:59
Not sure if army lists are welcome in this section, so after reading everyone's advice, I came up with this list
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4398886#post4398886
[posted in the army list section]. Any comments- either here or there- are most welcome.

Korhil-WLC
16-02-2010, 02:21
But a Ld 5 T2 no armour General....

Trigger36
16-02-2010, 04:10
@c4n b34t 3lv3s

That list doesn't work because the Scar Vet is the army's general, and then cannot bear the battle standard.

SatireSphere
16-02-2010, 11:46
@above

I assume the picking of the general happens after the list is done, and thus if the guy is already a bsb, you skip him for general choosing purposes and move on to the skink.

beaumontbrawler
16-02-2010, 15:07
Just take Slann w/ BSB, cogitation, diadem, and 1-2 scrolls . . . you've got the general, BSB, and scroll caddy all rolled into one, on the cheap, and if you stcik him in a block of TG, then he's not vulnerable like a BSB and scroll caddy normally would be.

Bladelord
16-02-2010, 16:37
Yes the skink's the general of the army. First the Priest was equipped with a Cloak of Feathers, change back to it instead of the scroll?

The Slanns are nice, but the slann alone will cost more than these two guys together. It will be all eggs in one basket.

Vsurma
16-02-2010, 19:20
Just take Slann w/ BSB, cogitation, diadem, and 1-2 scrolls . . . you've got the general, BSB, and scroll caddy all rolled into one, on the cheap, and if you stcik him in a block of TG, then he's not vulnerable like a BSB and scroll caddy normally would be.

This is a pretty solid build for character light.

You get a ld 9! BSB which is huge
You can make temple guard stubborn which is also pretty nice.
You can ruin the opponents magic phase.

Throw in the warbanner and he gives the temple guard unit +2 static combat res as well.

Tarliyn
17-02-2010, 03:47
The character light build I run is extremely character light,:

Skink Priest lvl 2, general, diadem, scroll
skink priest, scroll x2

2 units of 20 saurus, with banner and music
2 units of 17 skinks with 2 kroxs with banner and music
4 units of 10 skink skirmishers
2 units of 5 cav with music only
1 unit of 3 terradon riders
2 units of 2 razordons

It has worked out okay so far and is a blast to play. Between this list and my list that has an engine and 2 saurus characters I get both ends of the spectrum

Edit: When I play this list I do miss having a bsb just to warn ya

Trigger36
17-02-2010, 04:35
The character with the highest leadership has to be your army's general. He just can't be the BSB. At least, this is how I play it. If it actually goes the other way, great. I've always wanted a Scar Vet BSB and EotG at the same time...

Tarliyn
17-02-2010, 08:14
in regards to the general/bsb issue that was raised in this thread, I would lean toward being able to have your highest leadership guy as a bsb.

The BRB on page 82 says that if you have two characters with the same leadership choose at the beginning of the battle which one is the general. From this one could infer that general selection is made at the beginning of the battle rather than during list construction. While picking a BSB is made during list construction (this its inclusion in the army books).

So I guess I have boiled it down to what gets chosen first, do you make a character a general first or do you make them the bsb first? Since making them a BSB most definitely happens in army construction and it appears that choosing a general happens at the beginning of a battle I would argue that if you chose your highest leadership guy as a bsb it disqualifies him from being a general before the decision to choose a general is even on the table.

Now I bet someone out there will disagree with me but unless they can come up with an equally as logical counter argument then I say done and done :p

Spiney Norman
17-02-2010, 08:43
I've been working on LM lists with 25% chars or less since I heard about this proposed limit on chars in the new edition

Slann
focused rumination, focus of mystery, scroll, battle standard
Skink Priest
cloak of feathers, level 2

Is spot on 500pts, if you're playing 2250 then you've got a little more room to experiment with options for your Slann.

Grey Mage
18-02-2010, 07:27
Saurus Scar Veteran- SoM, SotMP, LA- 140pts.
Skink Priest- Diadem of Power- 90pts.
Is what I field normally at 1k-1.5k.

Want a BSB? Working at 2k? Ive often run:
Scar Veteran- War Drums, SoB, BSB, LA- 165
Skink Priest- Staff of Sorcery- 105pts.

500pts in heroes, 4 slots filled. Its magic defensive, and built around making the most of 3-4 good sized saurus blocks with skink screens/harrassers and with two or three units of terradons to try and hunt enemy mages/warmachines early on. A unit of Saurus Cavalry and maybe a coule razordons/salamanders to round out the list.

Vsurma
18-02-2010, 17:37
Remember you need a lv2 priest with diadam in order to save 2 dice, not really worth running it on a lv 1.