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Orangecoke
14-02-2010, 22:11
Hey guys

I've read a lot of very, very negative thing about the basic cor Gors in the new beastmen book. Thing is, I think they are among the coolest Beastmen models and it seems like a huge shame not to use them. In fact I was just assembling some and admiring their sculpts.

Question: Any way, in your opinions, to make these guys a "good" (or even great) choice to take? What strategy and synergies (and gear?) are needed to do so? Any tips would be appreciated. Im not loving the idea of filling the core with Ungor raiders but I realize that's probably the popular approach right now.

Seth the Dark
14-02-2010, 22:42
I like to give them additional hand weapons. I use a 20-25 man group deployed with a 15-20 man group in ambush.

snottlebocket
15-02-2010, 04:41
A big group led by a minotaur character seems ok. Not fantastic but ok. Let the gor provide static combat res while the minotaur causes the damage. Just hope the t4 on the gor is enough to prevent them from giving away too much combat res to their opponent by dying.

decker_cky
15-02-2010, 04:53
Give them a beastlord/wargor rather than a doombull. With multiple attacks already, they're the unit which gets the least improvement from primal fury to frenzy.

Taishar
15-02-2010, 04:57
Think outside the box. I like them at minimum size with XHW. For 80 points they are great redirectors, ambushers, flankers, and soft stuff beaty upers (TM).


Cheers

ftayl5
15-02-2010, 06:08
whose been complaining about the Gors? and wheres my machine gun?

The gors look great, its the minotaurs I cant stand.

anyway

there a very good choice, I'd take 2HW, blockls of 21, ranked 7 x 3
then a block of 20 as ambushers :)

Orangecoke
15-02-2010, 06:34
Yeah I meant complaining about the rules not the models - the models are awesome :)

Voss
15-02-2010, 07:15
Hey guys

I've read a lot of very, very negative thing about the basic cor Gors in the new beastmen book. Thing is, I think they are among the coolest Beastmen models and it seems like a huge shame not to use them. In fact I was just assembling some and admiring their sculpts.

Question: Any way, in your opinions, to make these guys a "good" (or even great) choice to take? What strategy and synergies (and gear?) are needed to do so? Any tips would be appreciated. Im not loving the idea of filling the core with Ungor raiders but I realize that's probably the popular approach right now.

Unfortunately, Gors are somewhat overcosted for what they do, especially considering how fragile they are, both physically and psychologically.

Equipping them is a matter of always extra hand weapons. The extra point per model isn't significantly worse than their base cost. Shields on the other hand... a 6+ save isn't worth it against shooting, and a 5+ in combat is marginal at best. You might as well maximize what killing power they have.

A BSB with either the Beast Banner or Totem of Rust seems the most direct way of making them more effective. With a second hand weapon, the Totem doesn't hurt them (though the BSB has problems) and makes them much more effective at killing enemy units.

In theory, I like the idea of a Gorebull BSB with the Beast Banner. High strength impact hits will help protect him, and 3 S4 attacks per Gor is often worth the loss of Primal Fury, especially since Frenzy also helps the unit with psychology.

On the matter of BSBs, with the wording on magic banners, I'm not clear if they can take Gifts as well as the banner- all it says is that the model cannot have other magic items.

scarvet
15-02-2010, 13:09
10, 12, 18, 24 with 2 handweapons are viable. Musician is always good, maybe full command for unit of 18 or 24.

For course if you are talking about ultra hard competitive list, then there is not place for them :P

Hemlocke
15-02-2010, 15:07
On the matter of BSBs, with the wording on magic banners, I'm not clear if they can take Gifts as well as the banner- all it says is that the model cannot have other magic items.

There's a note (I think at the top of the "gifts" page - I don't have my book on me) that indicates that Gifts do not count as magic items.

I would assume that a BSB carrying a magic banner could *not* have a magic shield, but *could* have a "gift" based upon that annotation.

~Hemlocke

snottlebocket
15-02-2010, 15:41
Give them a beastlord/wargor rather than a doombull. With multiple attacks already, they're the unit which gets the least improvement from primal fury to frenzy.

They're gor. At strength 3 the difference between 1 attack each or 3 each is mostly inconsequential. It's going to either do little or nothing. Plunking a minotaur in there who will butcher half the enemy front rank single handed on the other hand, is something you can rely on.

The only thing the gors need to do is supply ranks and not die. (which is another thing they kinda suck at) displacing 2 gor from the front rank rather than 1 gor with your character helps a little bit with that too.

Tauren
15-02-2010, 16:33
whose been complaining about the Gors? and wheres my machine gun?

The gors look great, its the minotaurs I cant stand.

anyway

there a very good choice, I'd take 2HW, blockls of 21, ranked 7 x 3
then a block of 20 as ambushers :)

I'd love to know what you are machine-gunning down that requires a fully ranked unit of expensive gors that ungors couldn't do the same too but for less...

decker_cky
15-02-2010, 16:45
I've been running a unit of 12-15 without AHW for my beastlord, then another unit of 10 with music and AHW that I can either ambush or use as a support unit. Make sure units in ambush have a purpose....even just disruption can be worth it. But a unit of gors hits respectably hard.

15 is the absolute max I take though.

Tauren
15-02-2010, 17:07
I'm under the same opinion decker, way I look at it, short of guarding a beastlord on foot with a small unit of them, I see no point outside of 10-12 man units of them.

mightygnoblar
16-02-2010, 11:28
i acually prefer to go the other way, i think a big unit of 23 makes the perfect place for a beastlord...the unit comes in at just around 200pts which isnt too bad, plus they look incredibiliy intimidating on the battlefield

Sclep
17-02-2010, 10:53
BSBs w/ magic banners can take gifts.

scarvet
17-02-2010, 15:43
Question: 6 wide for extra damage or 5 wide for SCR?

I think with primal fury 6 wide make them decent, any thoughts?

Souppilgrim
17-02-2010, 16:21
Gors will be viable as soon as 8th hits, probably more than viable.

Orangecoke
17-02-2010, 16:28
Gors will be viable as soon as 8th hits, probably more than viable.

You sound like you know something - since I'm building them now, is 2HW still a great option looking forward?

snottlebocket
18-02-2010, 05:33
You sound like you know something - since I'm building them now, is 2HW still a great option looking forward?

He's being optimistic. When the 6th and 7th edition hit GW made great claims of these being the moment when warhammer would become a game of armies. Characters and magic would be reduced in power while infantry would carry the day. They claimed it would become impossible for even elite cavalry to frontally charge infantry and be sure of a win.

In the end al the remained of those lofty words is the handweapon + shield bonus, outnumbering bonus and the fact that early armies like orcs and gobins are severely underpowered and outcompeted by the later armies.

I expect the same thing for the 8th, beastmen just got screwed by being an early book.

Vermin-thing
18-02-2010, 08:44
As already stated MSU with additional hand weapons is the way to go. I personally fear ambushing gors as 11 + hatred attacks is going to do a number to anything but black guard.

JimtheMagician
18-02-2010, 16:00
I have too have been toying with the use of gors and find that AHW is the way to go. I try and field 12 with matching ambushing unit. Then again I play skaven and love running big hordes. So the more the merrier

Souppilgrim
18-02-2010, 21:57
He's being optimistic. When the 6th and 7th edition hit GW made great claims of these being the moment when warhammer would become a game of armies. Characters and magic would be reduced in power while infantry would carry the day. They claimed it would become impossible for even elite cavalry to frontally charge infantry and be sure of a win.

In the end al the remained of those lofty words is the handweapon + shield bonus, outnumbering bonus and the fact that early armies like orcs and gobins are severely underpowered and outcompeted by the later armies.

I expect the same thing for the 8th, beastmen just got screwed by being an early book.

Sounds like you are being pessimistic. GW has increased the power of normal troops since 5th. The might not have done it enough, but they have been moving that way. The outnumbering bonus is great, the hw+sh bonus is great, and the scaling down of super high S T and At has been great as well. It sounds like 8th is going to do even more to make big blocks work better. Balance is a difficult thing, and one push just too hard one direction can make infantry OP and monsters (etc) "useless".

snottlebocket
19-02-2010, 05:59
Sounds like you are being pessimistic. GW has increased the power of normal troops since 5th. The might not have done it enough, but they have been moving that way. The outnumbering bonus is great, the hw+sh bonus is great, and the scaling down of super high S T and At has been great as well. It sounds like 8th is going to do even more to make big blocks work better. Balance is a difficult thing, and one push just too hard one direction can make infantry OP and monsters (etc) "useless".

It's got nothing to do with pessimism really. GW had some pretty grand claims when they set out to do this. They started out well and over the course of just a few years they abandoned it and started doing the opposite. Hideously magic heayv, monster heavy, character heavy lists.

If I predicted it beforehand it would have been pessimism, now that it's done, I'm just pointing out a fact.

As for balance, GW has often stated that they have no interest in even attempting balance. Balance is up to the players and most players being... well warhammer players balance is about as rare as snowball in the sahara.

Angry Lawyer
19-02-2010, 15:21
I've crunched the numbers, and bizarrely, unless my maths are off, Gors with HW/Shield are a tiny bit more survivable than Empire Swordsmen, so they *could* act as an anvil.

WS3 or 4, vs Gor, chance of kill per attack:
S3: 0.110
S4: 0.208
S5: 0.333
S6: 0.412

WS3 or 4, vs Swordsman, chance of kill per attack:
S3: 0.125
S4: 0.221
S5: 0.338
S6: 0.412

-Angry Lawyer

Makaber
19-02-2010, 15:35
I think they look mediocre on paper, but I suspect they'll perform decently on the table. They have quite a few things going for them: WS4 and Toughness 4 makes them more durable than their lack of armour would have you believe, and the fact that they'll probably get Hatred beyond the initial round of combat means they might hang around longer in prolonged combat than people might expect.

It's easy to forget their role overall in the army, though: Don't expect them to plow through Chaos Warriors, Ironbreakers, and the like. That's the job of the Minotaurs and monsters. Rather, the Gors are their support units, and I think they'll be pretty capable at dealing with the "regular" enemies where the bigger stuff at your disposal will be overkill.

I, for one, have not dismissed them yet, and I'm looking forwards to trying them out.

Souppilgrim
19-02-2010, 21:01
As for balance, GW has often stated that they have no interest in even attempting balance. Balance is up to the players and most players being... well warhammer players balance is about as rare as snowball in the sahara.

I have seen evidence of that. GW does throw out statements about how, ..."it's somehow impossible to balance a wargame so you and your buddies should play fair!". It makes me want to pull my hair out.

On topic, yeah gors are a little suboptimal right now, mainly because they suffer from what all infantry are struggling with. However I think even a modest bump by 8th edition will make them very playable, so I wouldn't advise beastmen players running to ebay to sell their gors just yet.

CrystalSphere
20-02-2010, 15:47
I think Gors are pretty decent for gaining static combat resolution. You have to see them as a sort of orc infantry which do not have animosity, move more, can fight well in prolonged combat (hatred and average I3) and have little armour.

They are pricey but in my opinion they are worth it for making blocks of troops, much more than ungors. Ungors are a bit like goblins are to the orcs, the cheap option but much less powerful. A unit of 25 ungors costs 125 points while a unit of 25 gors with shields costs 200 points. Both provide static combat resolution and both have little armour, but the gors are much more resilient and make up for the lack of armour. The ungors on the other hand with WS3 T3 and little save will probably die very quickly agaisnt anything other than S3 attacks. Shooting is much less of a problem with Gors than with ungors, and you can always use those cheap 5 size ungor raider with shortbows as screens if it bothers you much.

I think the gors are the way to go if you want to build up some ranked infantry units to provide with combat resolution, in fact it is the only way you can get this in the army, the rest of troops either donīt have shields (bestigors) or are monsters. So your best unit to gain ranks and outnumber are the gors, something the rest of units in the army canīt do as well as they do.

Orangecoke
20-02-2010, 16:02
Cool, Crystal. Are you suggesting a unit or two of 25, with shields?

CrystalSphere
20-02-2010, 17:59
Cool, Crystal. Are you suggesting a unit or two of 25, with shields?

Yes, or only one if you canīt afford the points, but no more than two at 2000 points i would say. Those units move as fast as elves and provide some +5 static CR, while not being exactly pushovers in combat (like the ungors). They have solid numbers to avoid panic (dangerous with such L) and provide your other units with that much needed units to fall back.

For example they are great for protecting your shamans by hiding them inside, and iīve found that infantry blocks works great along with chariots, and the beastmen have plenty of those. Either the cheap tuskgor or the powerful razorgor, theyīre great for supporting your blocks and give the kills they need.

I thought about other way of improving them but while it looks good on paper iīve still have got to test it. If you add a BSB with the Beast banner (+1str the character and the unit) they suddenly become a lot better than what you ever thought. It is a lot of points in a single units but i think it would give a very solid base for your army. The gors are the only unit i find lacking in strenght, as the minotaurs and bestigors really donīt need it. It have the bonus of giving you +6 CR to the unit and better chances to kill with your wargor and S4 hatred attacks.

I do agree that the book have several shortcomings thought, specially compared to other books, but i think the gors are not so bad as how people are putting it. When facing your enemy if you donīt have static combat resolution, you have to either deny it to him (flank) or make enough kills. This is not always possible and it is good to have always some units capable of giving you some reliable ways of winning combats without depending everything on getting flanks (that your opponent will do his worst to deny you) or on the dice rolls.

akgaroth
20-02-2010, 21:24
Personally I prefer 2HW on gors. The shields are negated anyways by shoots of S4 or more and in CC their T4 is a good defense already. If you're scared by poisoned ranged attacks take ungors, but if you take gors you want them to be able to split some head in half in CC.

Gors are still good CC units, but I think they would be WAY better if they still had the "Raiders" special rule.

Makaber
21-02-2010, 11:22
Yes, I wouldn't bother with shields either. A 6+ vs. Shooting is almost worthless, and a 5+ Save in close combat is only going to help you in cases where you'd almost certainly gain more from the extra attack. In fact, I think it was weird of CrystalSphere to bring shields into the equation at all, especially bringing forth the fact that Bestigors can't take them, considering a Bestigor comes with Heavy Armour, which is superior to Hand Weapon + Shield in all cases. Sure, they're more expensive, but the point still stands.

I'll probably look at blocks of 20 Gors with 2HW, or 18. They're fast enough to deal with the extra width of the regiment, and I think, with their Hatred, good WS, and several Attacks, can make up for the lack of rank bonus.

akgaroth
21-02-2010, 13:51
... , can make up for the lack of rank bonus.

:confused: Gors have rank bonuses.

Haravikk
21-02-2010, 14:41
:confused: Gors have rank bonuses.
I think he's talking about using them in wider units, so they would be "shallower" and thus have fewer ranks, but would be able to bring more attacks to bear.

Orangecoke
21-02-2010, 15:52
In fact, I think it was weird of CrystalSphere to bring shields into the equation at all,


Dang...I just built 10 with shields last night :|

Makaber
21-02-2010, 15:54
No problem, just mix them into the other units and they'll look great. Gives them a rag-tag look which suits the army.

akgaroth
21-02-2010, 21:03
I think he's talking about using them in wider units, so they would be "shallower" and thus have fewer ranks, but would be able to bring more attacks to bear.

Ah, OK. Don't see the utility of it though as 1) Not all models will be able to attack and 2) You'll have problems passing through narrow passages, which becomes a real problem if you use a lot of scenography.

Makaber
21-02-2010, 21:12
Seeing as all regiments are at least 100mm wide, and you fight corner to corner, you're guaranteed to get all 25mm bases of a 6-wide Gor regiment into combat. And with regards to the terrain, you can always reform if that additional 2,5cm width is a hinderance (which I can tell you, it very rarely is).

I did wide regiments before it was "hip" and "trendy", and fielded seven wide, two deep regiments of Witch Elves when everybody else told me it was a stupid idea, so trust me on this, at least.

akgaroth
21-02-2010, 22:15
Humm, ok, though now gors cannot move freely across woods. Then again, if you say it works ...

Angry Lawyer
22-02-2010, 08:31
Yes, I wouldn't bother with shields either. A 6+ vs. Shooting is almost worthless, and a 5+ Save in close combat is only going to help you in cases where you'd almost certainly gain more from the extra attack. In fact, I think it was weird of CrystalSphere to bring shields into the equation at all, especially bringing forth the fact that Bestigors can't take them, considering a Bestigor comes with Heavy Armour, which is superior to Hand Weapon + Shield in all cases. Sure, they're more expensive, but the point still stands.

I'll probably look at blocks of 20 Gors with 2HW, or 18. They're fast enough to deal with the extra width of the regiment, and I think, with their Hatred, good WS, and several Attacks, can make up for the lack of rank bonus.

If you crunch the numbers, Gors with shields in close combat are slightly more survivable than empire swordsmen.

-Angry Lawyer

akgaroth
22-02-2010, 08:38
Euh, not that being more survivable than imperial swordmen is a huge feat ... and besides, that is mostly due to their T4, not to the shields.

Grey Mage
22-02-2010, 09:06
T 4? WS 4? and you can get 20 with extra hand weapons for about 160pts?

I dont see why anyones complaining- that sounds about right for most armies infantry models. Dont like S 3? Go play lizzies or chaos warriors. Truth is nothings wrong with Strength 3 models, its the normal value in this game.

Id that paying about 50pts to upgrade a large unit to a higher weaponskill and toughness is usually worth it. The higher toughness alone gives them an advantage every time they are hit versus anything that hits them outside of a cannon. The extra WS means theyre hit less often by good attack troops in the enemy army- emprie swordsmen, chaos warriors, etc, and hit others more often. Its darn useful.

Would I throw down the points to give every unit shield or greatweapons? Nah... but 1pt for an extra attack is good, almost as good as giving them spears in some ways and certainly more agressive.

The reason that big ol monsters and characters are still effective in this game is because it can be difficult to concentrate your power on something as small as a single model, even a 40mm one. Why? Because 275pts of Warhydra on one base is alot more concentrated "umph" than 275pts of saurus temple gaurd... the base sizes are just not going to match up to let you get alot on the big baddy. On the other hand, monsters and characters have been kept quite reasonable with their attacks- wich turns them into force multipliers in the case of characters, and powerful support units in the case of monsters.

If you say otherwise than its just a chaos knights army... theyre gambling on being able to overstretch your ability to kill monsters to win the day for them. If you didnt plan some way of doing that into a couple places into your list your SOL, but if your army is well rounded then youll likely come out on top even if itll hurt a little.

CrystalSphere
22-02-2010, 11:31
I donīt trust the gors to kill anything with HA4 S3 attacks, even with 2 attacks each. I would much rather have a unit that can give static combat resolution and hold a charge if needed for a turn, the beastmen army lacks units that can do that except for the stubborn monsters.

Rank and file infantry are there for holding, not to try and make casualties with their low strenght attacks. You are not going to kill anything except T3 infantry with low armour save, which is hardly the most common type of troop you will face on the field. Even with S3 wounding other troops with T3 is a very bad decision: you go at 4+ plus the enemy get their full armour save, usually at 4+/5+.

When you want to kill you do it at the best chances, bring those bestigors with STR6 which wounds T3 and T4 troops at 2+, and -3 armour save gives you good chances of avoiding their armour. Or if you donīt want to use special choices you can use chariots, itīs not like the beastmen donīt have enough units with hitting power.

The thing is that if you need ranks, your only choice are gors and ungors. Well you can also use bestigor but that would be a real waste of points. Ungors are unreliable because they drop like goblins, so they are not solid infantry that can hold a charge. Gors on the other hand have more chances and are imho a better use of the points. Using gors for kills in my opinion is a waste because they do not have the strenght to make good use of the extra hand weapon. The only way i would see them working with 2 hand weapons are as small support unit for redirecting or using the ambush special rule.

Also a curious thing i noticed recently, a gor is just an upgrade ungor with the following: 25mm base, +1 leadership, +1 HA, +1 T for +3 points
(both gors and ungors include shields)

explorator
22-02-2010, 12:14
Yeah, and thanks for the maths, but I am going to run mine xhw for all the reasons Makaber and others have pointed out. I will am running 2 units of 12 w/xhw so I have one unit to ambush if needed.