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Olyphant
15-02-2010, 10:32
Now I remember in another thread I read that you need a standard bearer to have a magic banner, now I believe that the following is correct. If a unit with a magic banner breaks from combat they lose their standard and therefore can no longer benefit from the magic banner. Is this correct?

Further more do they not get an additional +1 CR in following close combats if they rally?

narrativium
15-02-2010, 10:45
With one exception, all correct. The absence of a banner means they cannot benefit in any way from that banner, in terms of magic, combat resolution, battle standard re-rolls, any of it. Even if they recapture it.

The exception: breaking from combat is not sufficient. The opponent's unit has to make the attempt to pursue. If they're still engaged in other combats or they choose to restrain, the banner is neither lost nor captured.

Olyphant
15-02-2010, 10:57
Yeah I was frenzied so i pursed :D, he just rallied took a 2nd charged then claimed asf from banner and had his general attempt to mow down my front rank.

narrativium
15-02-2010, 11:25
Yeah. He can't do that.

Lorcryst
15-02-2010, 11:28
Sorry narrativium, but your exception is wrong ...

Page 80 of the small rulebook :

If victors do not pursue a broken enemy, the standard is lost in the tide of battle but is not captured.

Standards are also captured if an enemy unit is completely destroyed in close combat, in which case there is no need to pursue.

In any case, when a unit breaks from combat, the standard bearer model is removed from the unit and, in the case of a unit that is not destroyed, it is replaced with an ordinary trooper model.

I won't quote the whole two pages of rules about standards, but reading them carefully does help ...

Olyphant
15-02-2010, 12:11
Thanks for the clarifications, I'm really starting to get my game on knowing more the rules in detail. It's seems you can read the brb multiple times and still not know everything. I don't think he's abusing them on purpose some games he's turned around on these facts but I'm starting to win more consistently with my WoC Infantry list.

I don't like to dis-hearten him too much so I will be whipping out the O'n'G which he has a good track record of whooping although I do pull off crazy massacres occasionally.

narrativium
15-02-2010, 18:14
Sorry narrativium, but your exception is wrong ...

Page 80 of the small rulebook :
<snip>

Oops. I stand duly corrected.

(I have Wood Elves. Very few banners.)

WusteGeist
16-02-2010, 05:12
The moral here being that most of the time banners are a liability and not a benefit. Hence why in some armies you can see as few as 1 or 2 banners. Big change from 6th when every unit had a banner, or so it felt.

Condottiere
16-02-2010, 08:38
At 2K, you could lose just on the points lost for a captured banner, and if almost every unit had one, you could win tactically by eliminating the weaker ones.

Necromancy Black
16-02-2010, 11:33
Banners probably should be 50vp + the cost of any magic banner that they might be

Mr_Rose
16-02-2010, 12:28
Banners probably should be 50vp + the cost of any magic banner that they might be
They should be twice the cost of the upgrade if captured, plus magic dangly bits. Why on earth would an Empire (Or O&G) army value a generic Gobbo standard as much as the Army Standard? Even if neither is magical.

Olyphant
16-02-2010, 13:05
Awesome idea, after all capturing the banner of the gods or the hasselhoff banner is a damn site more worthy than capturing the waaagh banner

jaxom
16-02-2010, 13:07
So, here's an interesting question which follows on capturing a magic banner....

Given spells which "unmake" a magic item in a unit... Is a captured magic item a valid target for such a spell?

Olyphant
16-02-2010, 13:17
Well you get 100vp for capturing the banner if it's magic or not, you don't gain the magic effect from a magic captured banner so it doesn't matter. I think for the remainder of the game you can consider it's effect nullified and not a target for anything

hwd
16-02-2010, 13:20
The banner may have been on a battle standard bearer in the unit?

In this case (i think) the banner is not lost. The only way of getting rid of a battle standard (magic or otherwise) is to kill the bearer...

Olyphant
16-02-2010, 13:30
Nah wasn't on a BSB, he didn't have one :p

Milgram
16-02-2010, 14:21
The banner may have been on a battle standard bearer in the unit?

In this case (i think) the banner is not lost. The only way of getting rid of a battle standard (magic or otherwise) is to kill the bearer...

wrong.

brb 83

always wonder how many people get this wrong even on tournaments.

hwd
16-02-2010, 14:56
my bad!
don't have my book with me, whats the ruling then?

jaxom
16-02-2010, 16:02
Well you get 100vp for capturing the banner if it's magic or not, you don't gain the magic effect from a magic captured banner so it doesn't matter. I think for the remainder of the game you can consider it's effect nullified and not a target for anything

It's not about me not being able to use it. If I am targetted by magic that will destory a magic item, I'd be much happier letting you destroy your useless magic banner instead of my sword of much killiness.

Milgram
16-02-2010, 16:05
if he is on his own: killing is enough to get the standard, if he breaks, he looses it but the enemy has to pursue to capture.
if he is with a unit:
a) the unit breaks and he flees with them, he looses the standard and the enemy can capture it if they pursue
b) he gets killed and the unit breaks in the same turn -> enemy can capture if they pursue
c) he gets killed and the unit gets destroyed the same turn -> enemy captures automatically
d) he gets killed but his unit does not break/get destroyed the same turn -> the standard may not be captured at all

in addition: the unit capturing the army standard still have to keep it until the end of the game. else you do not get 100 vp for it (like regular standards). also you only get 100 vp for it, not 100 vp for standard + 100 vp for army standard.