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Your Mum Rang
08-02-2006, 12:18
Am I right in thinking US 6 will cancel an opponents ranks if you charge in the flank?

Borthcollective
08-02-2006, 12:22
As long as that unit doesn't skirmish.

Your Mum Rang
08-02-2006, 12:22
Cheers. So any US as long as the models don't skirmish. :D

Jim Reaper
08-02-2006, 12:23
That's right, you need a (non-skirmishing) US of 5 to negate your opponent's rank bonus. According to my reading of the rule though, this must apply at the end of combat or your opponent regains his rank bonus.

Atrahasis
08-02-2006, 12:36
That's right, you need a (non-skirmishing) US of 5 to negate your opponent's rank bonus. According to my reading of the rule though, this must apply at the end of combat or your opponent regains his rank bonus.

No.

Ranks are counted at the BEGINNING of the combat round, so reducing the enemy's US to below 5 will not return rank bonus until the NEXT round.

Everything else is counted after combat, so the flank/rear bonus can be denied by reducing US to below 5.

mageith
08-02-2006, 13:37
Cheers. So any US as long as the models don't skirmish. :D

Not quite. Any UNIT with at least US 5 as long as the model's aren't skirmishers.

The US 5 has to be met by a single unit, not a combination of units (such as two eagles).

Mage Ith

DarkTerror
08-02-2006, 16:10
No.

Ranks are counted at the BEGINNING of the combat round, so reducing the enemy's US to below 5 will not return rank bonus until the NEXT round.

Everything else is counted after combat, so the flank/rear bonus can be denied by reducing US to below 5.

Incorrect. All combat results are calculated at the beginning EXCEPT outnumbering.

Festus
08-02-2006, 16:55
Hi

Incorrect. All combat results are calculated at the beginning EXCEPT outnumbering.
Where did you get this from?

Atrahasis is of course right: Ranks are counted at the beginning of the round of close combat, everything else - including outnumbering - after the fighting itself.

Greetings
Festus

edit: The proof is on p.71 and p.73 of the BRB...

ZomboCom
08-02-2006, 18:01
Yep, ranks are calculated at the begining, everything else at the end, including outnumber.

Your Mum Rang
08-02-2006, 18:07
So if you reduce the enemy to less than US 5 they do not cancel ranks?

Or have they ALREADY CANCELLED them as the ranks are calculated at the start?

DarkTerror
08-02-2006, 18:17
Hi

Where did you get this from?

Atrahasis is of course right: Ranks are counted at the beginning of the round of close combat, everything else - including outnumbering - after the fighting itself.

Greetings
Festus

edit: The proof is on p.71 and p.73 of the BRB...

That was from GW staff. Where did you get that from?

Borthcollective
08-02-2006, 18:23
Um I would guess he got it from page 71 and 73 of the basic rule book.

mageith
08-02-2006, 18:35
So if you reduce the enemy to less than US 5 they do not cancel ranks?

Not on the turn of cancellation but they will on the next turn or the next time they are counted.



Or have they ALREADY CANCELLED them as the ranks are calculated at the start?
Right. Once cancelled tat the beginning of the turn, they remain cancelled until the beginning of the next turn.

Mage Ith

Your Mum Rang
08-02-2006, 18:42
Just wanted to clarify and get it concrete. Cheers!

adbower
08-02-2006, 18:45
So if you reduce the enemy to less than US 5 they do not cancel ranks?

Or have they ALREADY CANCELLED them as the ranks are calculated at the start?
Rank bonus that the unit being charged receives is calculated at the beginning. If, at the END of the fight, you have US 5 (and are not a skirmishing unit), you then cancel that bonus they receive. They receive their bonus at the begining, but you essentially erase it at the end.

If you have been reduced below US 5, they get to keep their bonus.

No? Am I wrong? I'm confusing myself here.

DarkTerror
08-02-2006, 18:47
Well, as usual, GW staff are full of (insert appropriate word here)

Your Mum Rang
08-02-2006, 18:48
Bah! Conflicting answerd for the win!

Flame
08-02-2006, 19:29
Right, lets try and sort this out.

If a unit is charge in the flank (or rear) by ANY unit of US5 or more, the side in the flank/rear gains +1/2 to CR provided they have US5 at the end of the combat.

If a unit is engaged by any NON Skirmishing unit in the flank/rear, then they CANNOT claim rank bonus for that turn. If, during that combat phase they reduce the enemy to less than US5, then they have still lost their rank bonus,(gaining it back next turn) but, conversly, the enemy cannot claim +1/2 for their bonus.

Hope that helps.

adbower
08-02-2006, 19:35
Right, lets try and sort this out.

If a unit is engaged by any NON Skirmishing unit in the flank/rear, then they CANNOT claim rank bonus for that turn. If, during that combat phase they reduce the enemy to less than US5, then they have still lost their rank bonus,(gaining it back next turn) but, conversly, the enemy cannot claim +1/2 for their bonus.

Hope that helps.
But on page 73, doesn't it say...

This bonus is lost if the unit is charged in the flank or rear by an enemy with a US of five or more... if they break and flee, or are reduced to a US of less than five, the unit regains its rank bonus.

Where does it say that they regain their bonus the next turn?

Festus
08-02-2006, 19:37
Hi

Right, lets try and sort this out.

If a unit is charged in the flank (or rear) by ANY unit of US5 or more, or by a unit that subsequently raises its numbers to US5 or more, the side in the flank/rear gains +1/2 to CR provided they have US5 at the end of the combat.

If a unit is engaged by any NON Skirmishing of at least US5 unit in the flank/rear, then they CANNOT claim rank bonus for that turn. If, during that combat phase they reduce the enemy to less than US5, then they have still lost their rank bonus,(gaining it back next turn) but, conversly, the enemy cannot claim +1/2 for their bonus.

That is very much spot on, after I added the boldened part...

Greetings
Festus

Festus
08-02-2006, 19:40
Hi

Where does it say that they regain their bonus the next turn?
They regain their ranks immediately, it is just that the rank bonus for combat resolution is only counted at the beginning of the round of h-t-h-combat. Therefore it can only be counted again next turn.

It is on p. 73 of the BRB. Still on p.73 ...

Greetings
Festus

adbower
08-02-2006, 19:49
So in this fight, where unit A is being charged in the flank by unit B and in the front by unit C...

A
XXXXooo
XXXXooo
XXXXooo B
XXXX
ooo
ooo
C

--------------------

A
XXXXo
XXXXo
XXXXoo B
XXXX
ooo
ooo

EDITED: meant to have four models in unit B

Unit A would still NOT get a rank bonus of +3 at the end of the first round of battle, even now that unit B has been reduced to US 4?

Festus
08-02-2006, 20:20
Hi

If you have unit B 4 models strong at the end of the combat (assuming US1, remember, it is US, not models to cancel ranks), then you are correct.

Unit A will be able to count its rank bonus only in the next h-t-h-round.

Greetings
Festus

edit: In your example, unit A still wins by 3 (A: 5 Wounds, Outnumber, Standard = 7; b and c: 2 Ranks, Flank, Standard =4)

DAFace
09-02-2006, 18:10
Ranks are counted and cancelled at the start.

Festus
09-02-2006, 18:22
Hi

Ranks are counted and cancelled at the start.
No, really? :eyebrows: