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direwolf
16-02-2010, 23:07
I was wondering if anyone has used marauder horse with light armour and shields as a sort of poor man's knights. They'd have a 4+ save and be none too shabby in combat. Is that reasonable or just crap?

Witchblade
16-02-2010, 23:34
No fast cavalry... for +1 AS vs shooting?
No flails, no fast cavalry, for +1 AS?

Rubbish.

direwolf
17-02-2010, 00:32
Well, I didn't mention weapons, flails could still be used, but yeah, I thought as much

kaubin
17-02-2010, 03:35
They could still break rank for the lost mobility, something fast cavalry can`t do. I could see them breaking certain units with lower movement. I`d try them out just to see if you like em.

Roark
17-02-2010, 04:15
I don't think it's worth it, to be honest. Not for a 4+ save, which is still going to be mostly nullified by a lot of stuff out there.

The Fast Cavalry rule is worth more than that.

Witchblade
17-02-2010, 06:37
They could still break rank for the lost mobility, something fast cavalry can`t do. I could see them breaking certain units with lower movement. I`d try them out just to see if you like em.
Fast cavalry can break ranks. They just don't get rank bonuses.

Avian
17-02-2010, 06:43
A point of rank bonus on Horsemen is far too expensive for what it does anyway. I wouldn't field them in ranks even if I'd be allowed to keep the fast cavalry advantage. Fielding them in ranks without the fast cavalry advantage just seems useless.

Grupax
17-02-2010, 07:34
unless you use 20 of them with frenzy, and flails and full command :p
11 str5 attacks, 10str3 + they have a static cr of 3ranks, banner and outnumbering... ooh and they're faster then chaos knights

Djekar
17-02-2010, 07:38
That's a ridiculously expensive unit as well. Something like 400 points. I would hate to be on the recieving end of a charge with those guys too at WS 4/ T3/ 5+ AS - they'd drop like ... well, like something that drops really fast.

Avian
17-02-2010, 07:42
unless you use 20 of them with frenzy, and flails and full command :p
11 str5 attacks, 10str3 + they have a static cr of 3ranks, banner and outnumbering... ooh and they're faster then chaos knights
Such a unit is impressive because of the guys in the first rank, not because you have tripled the cost of the unit in order to get an easily-removed rank bonus. Drop the unit down to about six or seven and then get another unit or two of the same and you get much, much more effectiveness. Many more guys fighting, fewer expensive guys hanging around in the rear doing nothing and much more difficult to block for the opponent since he's dealing with more than one unit.

Newbie mistake. :p

Dantès
17-02-2010, 16:50
Maybe I'm just beating a dead horse here, but performance-wise the Fast Cav Marauder Horsemen are much better. Keep em cheap, that way you can take even more. More bodies in multiple units > a large unit of non-fast marauders. Fast Cav is priceless.

The only reason I could see use for a unit like you propose is just for character in the army, or if you really like your Marauder Horsemen. I, personally, wouldn't even think about it.

Chainaxe07
17-02-2010, 17:13
I rarely saw fast cavalry used to its full potential, mainly they just lure frenzied chargers and try to flee. If that's all you gonna do with them, then loose that rule and field them in ranks with better armour. On a purely aesthethic point of view they're probably gonna look very well with extra armour modeled on them. If you are going to give them a champion you could easily pull out a "frazetta death dealer" lookalike with the pieces in the plastic sprue and a little of green stuff.
If you pay more attention to effectiveness, and are very, very good at using fast cavalry (at least a cut above today's average general) then you'd probably better use smaller fast cavalry units. Just dont expect them to do anything on their own, like all other light cavalry by the way.

Havock
17-02-2010, 23:12
Yes, that's a good idea: If you only use them for bainting, make them more expensive by chucking in another rank and command group.

Zaustus
18-02-2010, 05:20
Removing fast cav also means you can't rally and move in the same turn, which is essential for such baiting units.

Avian
18-02-2010, 06:44
Yes, that's a good idea: If you only use them for bainting, make them more expensive by chucking in another rank and command group.
Ooooh, sarcasm. ;)


But I agree. I can see only one reason to go for more than a single rank of fast cavalry and that is if you are using them as a character escort, where you'd want a few extra ones to hang on to the Look Out, Sir! option for longer. And even then you probably won't need a full second rank.

TroyJPerez
18-02-2010, 10:56
I've used ranked none fast cav before. They are an interesting unit but if your looking to win at all cost don't take them. The fast cav unit is way better. Its not that they are bad, its just in the current game environment nobody takes weak units when they can be avoided.

The Red Scourge
18-02-2010, 11:17
But I agree. I can see only one reason to go for more than a single rank of fast cavalry and that is if you are using them as a character escort..

Character escort?? Thats a dogs job. Cheap, expendable and the imagery of dog leaping to catch a cannonball while going "Waroof! Sir!" is priceless :D

Poseidal
18-02-2010, 11:24
If they are still Fast Cav, a character escort one also benefit from the free reforms so are better for facing your character in the direction you want.

I wouldn't do it with non-fast Marauder cav though, if they're moving like normal cavalry I'll take the jump into Knights.

Havock
18-02-2010, 11:33
I've used ranked none fast cav before. They are an interesting unit but if your looking to win at all cost don't take them. The fast cav unit is way better. Its not that they are bad, its just in the current game environment nobody takes weak units when they can be avoided.

It's more a case of it really not being worthwhile. You basically upgrade your protection from paper to cardboard and give up many of the advantages you normally pick such a unit for.

For going from a 5+ to 4+ you:
1- lose your manoeuvrability
2- Lose the ability to move after rally

And if you use flails, you waste it all. If you want to upgrade their resiliency to shooting, put a BSB in there with the blasted standard. Plenty killy and rank removal. and 1 for BSB,

Avian
18-02-2010, 11:37
Character escort?? Thats a dogs job. Cheap, expendable and the imagery of dog leaping to catch a cannonball while going "Waroof! Sir!" is priceless :D
But dogs can't get the Mark of Slaanesh, which makes them vulnerable to Panic or a Terror-causing jumping out next to them.

Havock
18-02-2010, 11:40
Get a daemonic mount for your character? Well, it's still a bad idea (free combat res etc)

Avian
18-02-2010, 11:45
Expensive and doesn't stop Panic. Might as well just get the Horsemen, then.

Havock
18-02-2010, 12:11
That too.

Fast cav horsies with an exalted on something fast (I like steed of slaanesh) actually works quite well. Nice and fast horsies break ranks, exalted breaks backs.

Avian
18-02-2010, 12:17
I've done some pondering and come to the conclusion that I MIGHT buy light armour and shields for Horsemen if the price was the same AND they stayed fast cavalry.

On the one hand, a 4+ save is okay, but on the other hand it means you won't be using anything nastier than a spear in close combat.

Havock
18-02-2010, 12:20
And they'll still die to a bunch of bows. Slightly less quick, but still...

Bladelord
18-02-2010, 12:22
Expensive and doesn't stop Panic. Might as well just get the Horsemen, then.

Much cheaper going for dogs than horsemen & don't forget the re-roll ability you got;)

Havock
18-02-2010, 12:36
The dogs are a liability.

Avian
18-02-2010, 12:52
Much cheaper going for dogs than horsemen & don't forget the re-roll ability you got;)
That's only Panic and not Terror.

Blueskies
18-02-2010, 13:38
4+ armour Horsemen escorting a guy on jugga, can give him ranks, outnumber and banner and reroll pursuits, its not a terrible idea, 13 frenzied up, spears, shield and light, command and MoK. not much more expensive then joining the guy on jugga with MoK knights. People forget that outnumber gives a 2 CR swing, you get it, and take it from them. So if you can net outnumber and 2 ranks and banner thats a 5cr swing + reroll pursuits and of course the nice shielding from bolts and cannons. that they provide. Isit the best use of points? who knows, but anyone would be lying if they said that unit didn't scare them a little if it was fielded against them.

Bladelord
18-02-2010, 13:49
That's only Panic and not Terror.

Maybe I'm the only one that ALWAYS passes terror tests? (even with gnoblars & goblins):p

Avian
18-02-2010, 13:54
"Be extremely lucky!" is not advice on tactics and hence belongs in another forum. ;)

Bladelord
18-02-2010, 14:02
Something must be wrong with my dice. I can't roll better than 4s & that rocks on Ld bases tests:D, but still... my bretonnian lances really sux!:(

Guard of Itza
18-02-2010, 14:48
4+ armour Horsemen escorting a guy on jugga, can give him ranks, outnumber and banner and reroll pursuits, its not a terrible idea, 13 frenzied up, spears, shield and light, command and MoK. not much more expensive then joining the guy on jugga with MoK knights. People forget that outnumber gives a 2 CR swing, you get it, and take it from them. So if you can net outnumber and 2 ranks and banner thats a 5cr swing + reroll pursuits and of course the nice shielding from bolts and cannons. that they provide. Isit the best use of points? who knows, but anyone would be lying if they said that unit didn't scare them a little if it was fielded against them.

I wouldn't be lying when I said it did not scare me. Not sure about the points but I sounds expensive with a mounted hero and three ranks of cavalry and a special banner. With frenzy, a quick baiting unit and a flank charge latter (massive flank with that unit) you loose frenzy and your banner if you break (the new combat res would be about 2 out number and a banner). It is nice on paper but it has too many big flaws.

Chainaxe07
18-02-2010, 19:28
Yes, that's a good idea: If you only use them for bainting, make them more expensive by chucking in another rank and command group.

Huh, what i was actually triyng to say is that too many generals fail to take profit from the fast cavalry rules, just using them as baits.
It only works against an increasingly narrow range of very specialized opponents, or inexperienced generals. This turns most fast cav units, including dark riders and other costly missile armed equivalents, into free points for your opponent rather than a pain in his side. In this case having them ranked up and decently armed and armoured, and used in a more conventional way, does not sound so suicidal. Did not think about the command group you mention, but you could give it a shot. Most importantly all opponents that hate silly naked models would thank you for modelling some armour on them :)
I myself dont mind silly naked models (imy DE army has its fair share of witches), but generally find all marauders, mounted or otherwise, pale in comparison to the business like, armour laden warriors of chaos, both in aesthetics and cost effectiveness. Turning marauders into half armoured chaos warriors wannabe could be good for a change.

Havock
19-02-2010, 10:10
It's more a case of them folding like paper if anything ever catches them. Against dark elves, my horsemen tend to die early, simply because of the volume of S3 AP fire he can put out. It's hard to avoid a boltthrower and the local HE player tends to focus on my fast cav with them as they are 'garantueed' kills rathert than 'maybe a knight'.
Daemons just don't care and/or they rip them apart with some 'within X inch"-banner, or flamers.

Under 6th ed, the battlefield was slightlyless riddles with the insane stuff you find nowTzeentch magic spam armies existed, but the lore was rather mediocre, so that evened out. Gunlines always existed, but then again, so did points denial.

Witchblade
19-02-2010, 11:27
Huh, what i was actually triyng to say is that too many generals fail to take profit from the fast cavalry rules, just using them as baits.

Fail to use the fast cavalry rules?
Feigned flight, check.
360° shooting, check.
Free reform, check.
March and shoot, check.


In this case having them ranked up and decently armed and armoured, and used in a more conventional way, does not sound so suicidal.
Can't get rank bonus, fail.
Lose fast cavalry with armour, check.

:eyebrows:

Poseidal
19-02-2010, 11:32
Even for Combat Marauder Horsemen (ie Khorne) who can't use Feigned Flight and don't use the Shooting generally, the Free Reforms are more than worth it over the increased save.

Bladelord
19-02-2010, 11:41
I agree with Poseidal. I'm a fan of the crazed khornate flail wielding horsemen, & the free reform are DAMN useful!

Witchblade
19-02-2010, 16:12
Perhaps even specifically so, because you can avoid having LoS to the wrong units.

Don Zeko
19-02-2010, 16:48
Consensus on these forums is so refreshing. Maybe I should start a thread asking if it's ever worthwhile to make Dark Riders non-fast cav?

Jack of Blades
19-02-2010, 18:05
Huh, what i was actually triyng to say is that too many generals fail to take profit from the fast cavalry rules, just using them as baits.

What exactly is this magical way of using fast cavalry that no one but you and your fellow enlightened disciplies know then? ;)

Chainaxe07
19-02-2010, 22:45
What exactly is this magical way of using fast cavalry that no one but you and your fellow enlightened disciplies know then? ;)

Hello Jack, well no big secret, really. And, besides, i never said i am "enlightened" :)
I just noticed most players field light cavalry (happens in historical wargaming too, very often) just because the list allows them and they feel they have to. Their army, sometimes, has no real place for them. Or, most commonly, they are used in such ways they get laid down by a single , half hearted roud of light missile fire, often because they manouvered into a silly position just in order to take a few (ineffective) early shots at a spellcaster or warmachine crew. That's foolish in my book.
I noticed players that keep them reltively safe and use them for flank charges generally fare much better(they generally kill or help to kill more points than they cost), and, most of all, it suits my style better.
I use my dark riders this way, withour costly rep crossbows and in units of 6-8. Ideally they flank or rear charge (often they succeed), and are quite effective. This means they stay slightly BEHIND you main chargers, be they cold ones, chariots, hydras or whatever combinations of the above. IMHO most fast cavalry is too expensive to be used s bait, you risk losing them for no gain at all.