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Dakkapantz
17-02-2010, 03:41
Hey all,

Just wanted to get people's thoughts on O&G's warbosses on wyverns in a regular 2250 game. Do they work? It seems very risky, as your leaving the rest of your army with LD7, and the wyvern isn't that great in CC. Thoughts?

Cheers

Peyton

kaubin
17-02-2010, 03:51
I`ve used it and it was very strong. While it only has 3 strength 6 attacks, and a Black Dragon has 5 str 6 hatred attacks, a Black Orc tooled up for combat can dish out more pain than a Pendant Lord does (I`ve gotten up to 9 str 9 attacks with Screaming Sword and kicking boots once when the enemy had all his characters in a nice bunch :D).

It does tend to promote less harmony within the troops though, I mean, it turns into a - which combat to stick the Wyvern - game, and less of a - lets try and multi-charge - game, and takes out some finesse of the Horde army. The rest of the army just turns into cheerleaders for your general.

Djekar
17-02-2010, 06:44
One thing you can think of too is putting a Great Shaman on that Wyvern. Give him the amulet of protectyness, the screamin' sword and ... I like the Waaagh! Paint, but it's up to you. I should mention that it might be fun to add the Battle Brew to the above combo and see how ridiculous things can get! He's no beast like your Black Orc on the Wyvern, but he does most of what a wyvern is used for, and you can let a regular Black Orc Big Boss Lead your troops as the general for LD 8.

You have to be more careful with him as he is more fragile and less "killy" than the normal Wyvern lord, but I have used him in a few games and I really liked the flexibility that he brings to the O&G army. I think it addresses what kaubin is talking about - it keeps that "harmony within the troops" because he can't just run into a block and break it, you use him to bust ranks/add ACR in dual charges, Terror Bomb or eat small units for breakfast. Plus, you still have an lvl 4 caster who can help out da boyz!

warlord hack'a
17-02-2010, 11:30
I changed my standard list one year ago from BO warlord on ironback boar leading my infantry, to a chariot heavy force led by a svg orc warlord on wyvern, with screaming sword and kicking boots and amulet of protectyness. This did however change the rest of my army dramatically as my lord meant I would be in CC quickly. Not wanting to leave my other force behind I threw in a lot of chariots, so I now ended up with 5 chariots (one with svg orc big boss, the other with gobbo scroll caddy), 2 orc blocks, 2 double choppa armed 10 man strong svg orc support units, 2 chukka's, 2 pumpwagons, doomdiver, 3 units fast cav, a night gobbo archer block, 2 snot redirect blocks, general on wyvern and BO BSB on boar leading the biggest orc block of the 2.

Tactics: round 1 get the wyvern on a flank under cover, batteline rumbles forward.
Round 2: get the wyvern where I want it, shielded as much as possible from enemy shooting and magic, battle line again moves forward
round 3: charge my chariots at the enemy plus the wyvern somewhere, enemy that move my way get this sooner..
later rounds: the blocks get to the enemy, mostly unharmed as most shooting and magic aims for the chariots.

the real strength of the list: outdeploying the enemy by a lot and then as last deployment put on the table my wyvern and 2 chariots whereever it is needed and overwhelm the enemy there..

warlord hack'a
17-02-2010, 11:33
but do a search on wyvern and you will find more than one post on this topic full of ideas and opinions.

rtunian
17-02-2010, 16:57
you don't have to send your general off, to use a wyvern. you can put a great shaman on it with a mix of defense and offensive magic items, and then use a big boss as your general. ld8 general who is with your army is better than ld9 general who is not.

Djekar
18-02-2010, 07:20
I would like to point out Hakka that your Savage Orc Warboss is illegal. He has 105 points of magic items.

warlord hack'a
18-02-2010, 07:36
Djekar, you are correct, he is armed with amulet, boots and ulag akkrit axe.. Sorry about that, the screaming sword is on the svg orc in the chariot..

And as for not having your general nearby for ld purposes, MOST tests on LD are made in combat, unless you face a magic heavy or shooing heavy list. Since most tests are made in combat all you need to do is make sure your general is near 12" of where the hottest combat is and since he usually is involved in the hottest combat I do not really find this is a problem.

When you do face shooting heavy or magic heavy lists, then having a very fast moving close combat guy who can take out the enemy magicians or artillery asap might be preferable to a slower moving general..

Djekar
18-02-2010, 08:11
You bring up a good point hack'a. My counterpoint (even though it's not really a point) is:
What do you do if faced with a shooty/magicy army where you *do* need that comforting LD bubble near the rest of your army? Hold back the Wyvern to give his helpful LD 9 and allowing him to get pin cushioned for an extra round or so, or rush him up to take out the biggest threats, making your largest investment (the Warboss) safer but leaving the rest of your army out to dry?

Not that it is an untenable situation, but it *is* a situation I don't like to be in.

rtunian
18-02-2010, 13:05
if you are playing against a fear causing army, most of your ld tests will be before you get to combat.

warlord hack'a
18-02-2010, 13:43
@ Djekar. In that case I would still get him out on the flank/under cover as I do not want him to get pincushioned. And him getting into combat soon will not only protect him, but if the enemy he is fighting is the shooting/magic part then that threat is taken care of for the rest of my army as well.

@ rthunian, good point. However, what better to have against an enemy causing fear than a terror causing cc flying brute? And other thing, though I am not 100% sure on this one: you do your fear test 'as soon as the enemy has been found to be in range'. So the question is: when do you measure if the enemy is within range. In my understanding this is at the move chargers part of the phase, and since I can decide to first perform the charge move of my (ItP and terror causing) general, and after he has moved measure for my not ItP and low LD orc block, they will again be in his LD range by the time they need to check. That is of course if my general charges the same unit as the block or a unit closeby. Not foolproof, but in a lot of cases, by the time it is time to get down and dirty, the geenral is nearby.

Of course this tric does not work for troops with a higher move as they start their charge outside of the 12"ld bubble, can be a pain especially for wolf chariots and fast cav.

So yes, the more stable choice is the general in your battle line. But I am having fun with the wyvern now, perhaps in some time will switch back to boar again.

rtunian
18-02-2010, 14:05
@ rthunian, good point. However, what better to have against an enemy causing fear than a terror causing cc flying brute? And other thing, though I am not 100% sure on this one: you do your fear test 'as soon as the enemy has been found to be in range'. So the question is: when do you measure if the enemy is within range. In my understanding this is at the move chargers part of the phase, and since I can decide to first perform the charge move of my (ItP and terror causing) general, and after he has moved measure for my not ItP and low LD orc block, they will again be in his LD range by the time they need to check. That is of course if my general charges the same unit as the block or a unit closeby. Not foolproof, but in a lot of cases, by the time it is time to get down and dirty, the geenral is nearby.

Of course this tric does not work for troops with a higher move as they start their charge outside of the 12"ld bubble, can be a pain especially for wolf chariots and fast cav.

no, you declare all charges and reactions first, then later you resolve them in the order in which they were declared. for fear, if you are charging, then you take a fear test in order to declare the charge. on the contrary, if you are charged, then you take a fear test when the charging unit is determined to be in range. see brb p50


So yes, the more stable choice is the general in your battle line. But I am having fun with the wyvern now, perhaps in some time will switch back to boar again.

for the record, i wouldn't recommend you personally switching back to the boar, even if it was infinitely better (as opposed to somewhat better), if you were having more fun with the wyvern.

warlord hack'a
18-02-2010, 16:44
yep, that was it, knew I was wrong somewhere, that's what you get without BRB at hand.. As for the boar, I do not know if it is somewhat better, let's say that for most armies it's the safest choice. But for my army the real strength lies in outdeploying the enemy by a few units and then slamming down 2 characters in chariots plus one lord on wyvern where I need them. So it is not the lord on wyvern on his own, it's him in combination with the rest of the army.

Harwammer
18-02-2010, 17:31
Cheap rank breaking flyer with scaly skin, doesn't take up a hero (or rare) slot, good delivery system for characters... whats not to like?!

(besides the general bubble problem :P)

Drakcore Bloodtear
18-02-2010, 19:02
Wyverns are very hit or miss

A good build would be
BLorc on wyverns, screamin sword, amult and possible battle brew
So on a good roll you have a very mobile and fighty lord
What I always do is hide him in terrain for the first couple of turns then charge open flanks

As for a Shamen I've never tried but it seems the biggest concern lack of protection

Malorian
18-02-2010, 19:06
Do they work? Yes they can but you have to play a lot differently.

I once stopped an orc opponent before a game an asked them if he wanted to change his list because the dwarfs I was going to use had a good amount of warmachines. He promptly turned me down and handed my dwarfs quite the beat down.


In general though I would stay away from them until the 3K level when you have another lord to stay with the troops, but they are fun to pull out now and then ;)

Djekar
19-02-2010, 06:21
One thing about the shaman and not having a lot of protection is covered pretty well by Hack'a: you don't want to hang your Wyvern out to dry anyways, even with a well armored Orc Warboss on top - so it's really not *that* huge of a change. You do have to play a little more carefully since between that and the lack of hitting power you aren't really doing much on your own, but I feel like the flexibility of the model and your ability to throw a Wyvern in your list @ 2000-2999 points without having to do the General Dance is usually worth it. Plus, it's always cool to try new things.

kaubin
19-02-2010, 12:29
I tried Djekar`s Wyvern Shaman build with my general being a big boss instead, and it was a lot of fun. Made the list a lot more balanced with the added magic, and he could still tear apart units on the flank when I sent him to the right place thanks to the screaming sword. Worked very nice.

Makaber
19-02-2010, 12:42
I absolutely love my Wyvern and take one at every opportunity. It's pretty much perfect for a flying monster: Great Strength, enough Toughness and Wounds not to be a liability in melee, and cheap enough that it doesn't dominate the army list completely. And, it gets the Warboss where he needs to be.

Sure it's vulnerable to cannonballs and bolt throwers, but that's just a matter of keeping it out of line of sight. To this end you've got the rather obvious but still pretty sneaky tactic of Waaagh!-utilization: Deploy or position the Wyvern behind a hill (or, less ideally, behind a wood or building), so that it faces where you want it to attack, but has no line of sight of the enemy. Then, when it's crunch-time, you call the Waaagh!, the General on Wyvern passes automatically, moves d6" forwards, thus moving onto the top of the hill, giving you a beautiful charge position without ever having to expose yourself to war machines beforehand.

Urgat
19-02-2010, 13:10
When I field a wyvern (very rarely), I put a savage orc on it. Coz the wyvern gets one more attack too :p

Drakcore Bloodtear
19-02-2010, 14:06
Sure it's vulnerable to cannonballs and bolt throwers, but that's just a matter of keeping it out of line of sight. To this end you've got the rather obvious but still pretty sneaky tactic of Waaagh!-utilization: Deploy or position the Wyvern behind a hill (or, less ideally, behind a wood or building), so that it faces where you want it to attack, but has no line of sight of the enemy. Then, when it's crunch-time, you call the Waaagh!, the General on Wyvern passes automatically, moves d6" forwards, thus moving onto the top of the hill, giving you a beautiful charge position without ever having to expose yourself to war machines beforehand.

A little thing I did was, if you get first turn declare a WAAAGH!!! then if you get a 5+ you can charge first turn and get your Wyvern in the enemy's line causing terror on the first turn

Problem is you've wasted you WAAAGH!!! and you need a 5+ :(