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MetalGecko23
17-02-2010, 08:10
Looking through some of the Tau's fluff and the Necrons fluff (mainly the Necrotyr stuff), I have noticed something weird. Is it me or do the two show remarkable similarities.
Both died young. Both had a drive to persue technology and advancement. Both were none psykers. Even some technology has the beginings for cross over, as a gauss weapon uses similar tech as a rail gun.
I'm sure there could be even more lines to be drawn. What if the Tau are an altered form of the old Necrotyr? Or that they are the Necrotyr living in a better environment, remainants of the War In Heaven. Small chance I think or its just that they have some of the same themes. I'm wondering if anyone else has considered this or noticed it.

Prokrustes
17-02-2010, 08:18
Well I see the basic theme connection. But fluffwise, there is no official link, given that the predecessors to the Tau have been found by some Magos Biologis and the Necrontyr became Necrons before mankind came out of their caves, maybe mankind even existed.
Furthermore one of the main differences is/was that the Necrontyrs lives are short, painful and miserable where as the Tau seem to be quiet content with their life and driven by the Greater Good instead of an all consuming hatred for those who dont suffer.

Nicha11
17-02-2010, 08:21
I doubt the Tau are related to the Necrotyr.

Because

The Tau were basically created by the Eldar

Lupe
17-02-2010, 08:30
Wait, weren't the Necrontyr's lives painful and miserable because of exposure to radiations emanating as a result of C'tan gods devouring their sun?

So, if some Necrontyr did manage to settle a decent world, they'd be just as short lived, but a lot less miserable, right?

Okaaaay, that's quite a stretch, and it doesn't even begin to cover the 60 or so million years since the last Necrontyr (with space faring capabilities) became extinct till the Tau stone age civilization was stumbled on by the Imperium, a few millenia ago.

Nonetheless, I rather like the parallel. I wonder if it could be one of those hints that not even the otherwise decent and hope filled Tau won't escape the GRIMDARK fate of the galaxy.

MetalGecko23
17-02-2010, 08:37
@Nicha11
Thats not much of a spoiler as all Tau fans know that point of view.:)
Though that is speculation as it is only vaguly referred to. An there is nothing stoping the Hariquins involved with that bit of story from caring out orders from their Old One god. On seeding the Necrotyr's decendants on a new world in hopes of creating a race that can stop the Necron end game.


Okaaaay, that's quite a stretch, and it doesn't even begin to cover the 60 or so million years since the last Necrontyr (with space faring capabilities) became extinct till the Tau stone age civilization was stumbled on by the Imperium, a few millenia ago.
Well time in 40k is a toss up. As it often doesn't make sense. Though it says in the Necron codex that the C'tan were capable of creating warp storms at a whim.
Do you remember what saved the early Tau from the Imperium? :eek:

Shinzui
17-02-2010, 08:42
Your evidence is flawed for example

the Tau don't die young they just have a short life span.

The Necrotyr died due to illness cause by their sun. Not the same thing.

Nothing shows the necrons orignal form didn't have psykers. It simply isn't mentioned.

The Necron Gauss weapon doesn't work like the actual definition of a Gauss weapon works in Real life.

Lupe
17-02-2010, 08:45
Well time in 40k is a toss up. As it often doesn't make sense. Though it says in the Necron codex that the C'tan were capable of creating warp storms at a whim.
Do you remember what saved the early Tau from the Imperium? :eek:

Point taken.
Thing is, there are 2 giant questions this theory raises, that I can't find an answer for:

- how did a group of Necrontyr survive for 60 million years, escaping the gaze of the C'tan gods, who clearly would have wanted to see them packed in living metal, with all the rest of their race?

- how did the Necrontyr survivors go from a civilization advanced enough for inter space travel and harnessing living metal and gauss energies to something similar to stone age/bronze age humans ? Granted, 60 million years is a lot of time, and a lot of things could go south, but you'd think some ancient Necrontyr relics on the Tau homeworld would have been found by now

Lord Damocles
17-02-2010, 08:53
Looking through some of the Tau's fluff and the Necrons fluff (mainly the Necrotyr stuff), I have noticed something weird. Is it me or do the two show remarkable similarities.
Oh, god, not this again.


Both died young.
The Necrontyr died young due to the influence of their star.
The Tau die young naturally.


Both were none psykers.
Prove that the Necrontyr were'nt psykers.


Even some technology has the beginings for cross over, as a gauss weapon uses similar tech as a rail gun.
It's really not that similar.

Besides which, even if they were the same race seperated by billions of years, wouldn't it be rather a coincidence if they both ended up developing the same technology?

EDIT:

Though it says in the Necron codex that the C'tan were capable of creating warp storms at a whim.
Really?

It says that the Deciever engineered the Gothic War (pg.31); and we know this came about due to an unusual warp storm allowing Abaddon to bypass the Cadian Gate, but it's a stretch to say that thos equates to the Deciever creating the storm. For all we know, the Deciever led Abaddon to Drac'nyen (golden-skinned stranger and all...), which allowed Abaddon to get into a possition to lead the 12th Crusade.

MetalGecko23
17-02-2010, 08:59
The Necron Gauss weapon doesn't work like the actual definition of a Gauss weapon works in Real life.
Gauss technology is what the fabled "tractor beam" in Star Trek was. Gauss rifles the Necrons use pull their victims apart bit by bit into the gun.


Nothing shows the necrons orignal form didn't have psykers. It simply isn't mentioned.
They didn't otherwise their inability to understand what the Old Ones were able to do, or the god like powers of the C'tan wouldn't make sense.


the Tau don't die young they just have a short life span.
It is said that the Tau mature quickly, infirm quickly and then die quickly. As for the Necrotyr it is said that the cancers in their bodies shortened their life span.


- how did a group of Necrontyr survive for 60 million years, escaping the gaze of the C'tan gods, who clearly would have wanted to see them packed in living metal, with all the rest of their race?
I don't find it unlikely that the Tau were built by the Old Ones using Necrotyr DNA (or what ever they had).


- how did the Necrontyr survivors go from a civilization advanced enough for inter space travel and harnessing living metal and gauss energies to something similar to stone age/bronze age humans ? Granted, 60 million years is a lot of time, and a lot of things could go south, but you'd think some ancient Necrontyr relics on the Tau homeworld would have been found by now
There is that big funny sword that Farsight carries, and the fact that the Tau have artifact worlds as a designation for a type of planet. Which some exist inside Tau space.

Sephiroth
17-02-2010, 09:03
Wait, weren't the Necrontyr's lives painful and miserable because of exposure to radiations emanating as a result of C'tan gods devouring their sun?

Well, radiation from their sun (whether that was a C'Tan's doing is another matter). Sadly, this is one of those GW moments which falls flat on its face: we can construct spaceships, but we can't develop sunblock. :p

Lord Damocles
17-02-2010, 09:16
They didn't otherwise their inability to understand what the Old Ones were able to do, or the god like powers of the C'tan wouldn't make sense.
Prove that they didn't understand what the Old Ones were able to do.


I don't find it unlikely that the Tau were built by the Old Ones using Necrotyr DNA (or what ever they had).
That's a circular arguement though:
Necrons = Tau. Therfore Tau = built by Old Ones using Necrontyr DNA. Therefore Necrons = Tau. Etc. etc. etc.
With no actual real evidence in the loop at all.


There is that big funny sword that Farsight carries, and the fact that the Tau have artifact worlds as a designation for a type of planet. Which some exist inside Tau space.
The Dawn Blade isn't a confirmed Necron[tyr] artefact.

Also, if the artefact worlds are in fact tombworlds (unconfirmed), their placement within the boundries of the [current] Tau empire is neither here nor there. There are tombworlds all over the galaxy.

Revlid
17-02-2010, 09:26
As the Old Ones fought the Necrontyr and their C'tan masters through their engineered races, they had a number of side-projects going. One of these was humanity. The other, the Tau. Meddling with the Necrontyr brain chemistry to make them less competitive and imperialistic yielded small results, and physical alterations designed to increase the average lifespan and allow them to perceive the warp were only marginally more successful. Despairing of ever reforming their nemesis, the Old Ones left the proto-Tau/neo-Necrontyr on a backwater planet for later study, and continued the war.

At some point after the onslaught of the Enslavers and the hibernation of the Necrons, the Eldar came across the Tau. They recognised the Necrontyr by their psychic signature (or lack thereof), despite their evolution into Castes and altered physical appearance (no feet, smaller chins etc). Working off the instructions of the Old Ones, at the direction of a surviving Old One, or on their own initiative, they engineered the Ethereal Caste as described in Xenology, relishing the irony of their greatest foe becoming a potential ally, and hoping for the pheromone-effects of the Ethereal to mesh with the altered brain chemistry of the Tau, preventing the rise of another race of Omnicidal Maniacs. It worked.

The only notable exception to this success has been Commander Farsight. Losing his Ethereal was bad enough, but not enough to result in rebellion or regression. Stumbling upon a Necron tomb rendered extinct by continental shift was. Recovering a number of artifacts, including the Dawn Blade (the necrodermis remnant of a long-devoured C'tan), a heavily coloured degree of the truth about the origins of the Tau was revealed to Farsight by crude communication with his battlesuit's A.I. Enraged by the "unwarranted puppetry" of the elder races, and the Ethereals in particular, Farsight rebelled to reclaim his race's glorious destiny, taking the Greater Good in an entirely different direction. It is unknown how he has acheived such longevity, but one Eldar Farseer claims that the C'tan the Dawn Blade was part of has found an escape route from the digestive system of the Outsider - through Farsight.

Prokrustes
17-02-2010, 09:31
Lets not forget that if we use the theory of exiled hiding necrontyr they would have had to survive a) the enslaver plague and b) the harvest of their former brethren. Furthermore there is the question, why the old ones would use Necrontyr dna for anything. They engineered the younger species vs. the warp and the necrons so whats the point of cloning my enemies?

@Revlid: I think the guy who invented the Dawn Blade said, a long while ago, it was supposed to be chaos artifact without further tie ins (but that was long ago and they can make whatever out of it). But I love your story.

MetalGecko23
17-02-2010, 09:31
Prove that they didn't understand what the Old Ones were able to do.
Because the Old Ones danced around them in the war and used warp tech in the process, where the Necrotyr used super tech to counter mystic Old Ones.


That's a circular arguement though:
Necrons = Tau. Therfore Tau = built by Old Ones using Necrontyr DNA. Therefore Necrons = Tau. Etc. etc. etc.
With no actual real evidence in the loop at all.
Not to be nitpicky but the discussion is about Necrotyr not Necrons. There different.
To my defense I'm pondering their similarities. No looping, as I'm looking for ways they could be related while still using known fluff about the two. For the most part your not going to get hard evidence to prove this theory it just an idea, that I wanted to share.
You are completely within you rights to tear my idea apart though.:)


The Dawn Blade isn't a confirmed Necron[tyr] artefact.
You are right but it could be.


Also, if the artefact worlds are in fact tombworlds (unconfirmed), their placement within the boundries of the [current] Tau empire is neither here nor there. There are tombworlds all over the galaxy.
Which doesn't change the idea that the Tau have a special conection to them.

Lord Damocles
17-02-2010, 09:47
Because the Old Ones danced around them in the war and used warp tech in the process, where the Necrotyr used super tech to counter mystic Old Ones.
But this doesn't show a lack of understanding.

You're drawing conclusions from the text which just aren't there. Nothing says, 'the Necrontyr didn't understand the Old Ones' warpcraft' [or similar]. Your making the assumption that because the Old Ones used wrapcraft, and the Necrontyr were defeated by them, that this equates to a lack of understanding; which isn't necessarily so.

For example, I might understand how someone can do kung-fu, but this doesn't mean that I won't get whooped in a fight.


Which doesn't change the idea that the Tau have a special conection to them.
Again, you seem to have read more into the information available than is actually there. What gives the Tau a 'special connection' to the aretfact worlds?


The Necrontyr/Tau connection is one which has been made often: and each time it comes up, any arguement that the two races are/were linked in some way rests upon very unsound foundations of assumptions, assertions, coincidences (which of course isn't to say that there isn't a connection somehow - just that there is no evidence of any such connection).

Lupe
17-02-2010, 09:54
They engineered the younger species vs. the warp and the necrons so whats the point of cloning my enemies?


I don't particularly subscribe to the theory of Tau being an experiment based on Necrontyr, but there are certainly reasons why you'd really want to have a few clones of your enemy.

Behavior studies, anatomy tests, genetic engineering experiments, infiltration, substitution, all perfectly valid reasons to keep some isolated.

I think this is an appealing way of looking at things, but since there is no evidence to either confirm or deny this, we're going to have to live with the speculations.

MetalGecko23
17-02-2010, 09:59
The Necrontyr/Tau connection is one which has been made often: and each time it comes up, any arguement that the two races are/were linked in some way rests upon very unsound foundations of assumptions, assertions, coincidences (which of course isn't to say that there isn't a connection somehow - just that there is no evidence of any such connection).
Well honestly there really are not going to be specifics. There is no way to find anything in the fluff that would allow to me to say with out a doubt that the two are totally connected. All you can do is look at were they have similarities and go from there. If there are similarities I am unaware of I hope others can bring them up.


You're drawing conclusions from the text which just aren't there. Nothing says, 'the Necrontyr didn't understand the Old Ones' warpcraft' [or similar]. Your making the assumption that because the Old Ones used wrapcraft, and the Necrontyr were defeated by them, that this equates to a lack of understanding; which isn't necessarily so.
It may not say in bold words what Imply. I do know how stories are written and how to have contrasting elements. The Old Ones and the Necrotyr are supposed to represent polar opposites. One uses psychic stuff the other sterile technology. The Necortyr didn't have warp travel or webways so you can assume they had little in the way of psychic know-how.

Lord Malorne
17-02-2010, 10:01
This is silly.

No, the Tau are not Necrons.

MetalGecko23
17-02-2010, 10:14
This is silly.

No, the Tau are not Necrons.
You are correct that is silly Tau are definately not Necrons. Which is why I was wondering if they had connections to the NECORTYR.

Lord Malorne
17-02-2010, 10:19
No they do not, they are seperate races that where developed seperate, in RL and in the game.

Shinzui
17-02-2010, 10:23
Gauss technology is what the fabled "tractor beam" in Star Trek was. Gauss rifles the Necrons use pull their victims apart bit by bit into the gun.

Which works nothing like the Tau railgun or actually Gauss Gun http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coilgun.


It is said that the Tau mature quickly, infirm quickly and then die quickly. As for the Necrotyr it is said that the cancers in their bodies shortened their life span.

Your trying to link a natural lifespan with a outside influence disrupting normal lifespan....

MetalGecko23
17-02-2010, 10:32
No they do not, they are seperate races that where developed seperate, in RL and in the game.
Your being a buzz kill :p. They were created realitively seperatly given same company and all, but that doesn't mean all races in 40k have nothing to do with each other simiply because of when they were developed. Or would you have me believe that Dark Eldar and Craftworld Eldar are unrelated, or Chaos Space Marines and Space Marines. There is the over all plot of the C'tan and the Old Ones having their fingers in everything. So what keeps the Tau out, why are they different in that they don't get involve in the conspiracy?
Sure I might be grasping for straws here but if we just follow the fluff to the letter and consider nothing beyond it, why have a background forum?


Your trying to link a natural lifespan with a outside influence disrupting normal lifespan....
The fluff implies the Necrotyr had short life spans to begin with and that the solar radiation destroys and pollutes their bodies. Making their short life uncertain. It as explains they had a rapid evolution.

Lord Malorne
17-02-2010, 10:42
Your being a buzz kill :p. They were created realitively seperatly given same company and all, but that doesn't mean all races in 40k have nothing to do with each other simiply because of when they were developed. Or would you have me believe that Dark Eldar and Craftworld Eldar are unrelated, or Chaos Space Marines and Space Marines. There is the over all plot of the C'tan and the Old Ones having their fingers in everything. So what keeps the Tau out, why are they different in that they don't get involve in the conspiracy?
Sure I might be grasping for straws here but if we just follow the fluff to the letter and consider nothing beyond it, why have a background forum?

Use logic, eldar and dark eldar have it in black and white they are related, chaos marines and space marines have it in black and white they are related, what a terrible example for you to use.

The Necrontyr and Tau have Nothing to connect them, not even straws.

Lord Damocles
17-02-2010, 12:27
The Necortyr didn't have warp travel or webways so you can assume they had little in the way of psychic know-how.
An assumption which may well prove false.

We know that the Necrons (relevant insofar as they represent the conclusion of the Necrontyr and their technology) use/used an amount of psychic technology (post from elsewhere (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4294821&postcount=15)) which shows that the C'tan/Necron's lack of psychic technology/understanding must be less than the 'soundbite view' of the races which is popularised.

Of course, this isn't to claim that the Necrontyr definately did heve any significant amount of psychic technology, or even that any they did possess came anywhere close to that of the Old Ones, but the very fact that there's a possibility makes the above assumption - and thus the conclusion that the ecrontyr and Tau are similar in that neither is a psychicly capable race - unsound.



So what keeps the Tau out, why are they different in that they don't get involve in the conspiracy?
The Tau can still get a slice of the conspiratorial pie:

Old Ones -> Cegorach -> Harlequins/Eldar -> via Q'orl -> Ethereals/Tau

Inquisitor Engel
17-02-2010, 16:08
Old Ones -> Cegorach -> Harlequins/Eldar -> via Q'orl -> Ethereals/Tau

This is precisely what the Design Staff told me (before Xenology even came out!).

The Eldar created the Tau to fight Chaos. The short lifespan is designed to create PURPOSE in their life so as to avoid the malcontent and desire for things for themselves that would lead them to Chaos. If you die after 30 years, you're going to me much more concerned with your community's success than you are your own, provided basic needs are taken care of.

It's an artificially forced equivalent to the Eldar Path.

LordLucan
17-02-2010, 18:33
Is it me or do the two show remarkable similarities.

Don't see it myself.


Both died young.

Tau have slightly shorter lives than humans. Necorntyr were cancerous twisted monsters, their race slowly being killed by their own start. Tau are hopeful and progressive. necrontyr were bitter and hateful.


Both had a drive to persue technology and advancement.

So did humanity for many thousands of years before 40K.


Both were none psykers.

So? Those worm-things out of Dark Heresy aren't psykers either.


Even some technology has the beginings for cross over, as a gauss weapon uses similar tech as a rail gun.

Note: Necron Gauss weapons are NOT Real life gauss weapons (real life gauss weapons would be coil guns.)

Railguns fling projectiles at hyper sonic speed. Gauss flayers strip their targets down at the molecular level, and drag them into the weapon itself. Totally different principles.


I'm sure there could be even more lines to be drawn. What if the Tau are an altered form of the old Necrotyr?

Doubtful.

Also, Nowhere in the fluff does it say Necrontyr are humanoid. In fact, they probably weren't humanoid. Only races that have been influenced by the Old Ones seem to be humanoid in shape.

Necrons are humanoid because the C'tan wanted to send a message to every humanoid old one servant race: We will kill you, we are our death.

DapperAnarchist
17-02-2010, 19:32
Eldaroid, not Humanoid... :P

The Necrontyr/Necrons clearly had an understanding of the Old One's psychic abilities - how the hell else can you create an anti-Psychic weapon?

The Necrons are, in the "metagame" - what we usually call real life/marketing - Space Tomb Kings. Egyptian Themed Undead In Space, with some Lovecraftian Twists and a bit of original material.

The Tau are... wait for... Space Halflings. They're short, specialise in ranged combat, and can't be affected by Chaos. Further, the Xenology links match up to the WHFB stuff about the Halflings being the Old Ones final race, designed to be invulnerable to the temptations of Chaos.

Yes, the Ratlings are also Space Halflings, but they have the big feet and eating parts, the Tau get everything else.

Its not intended to be close, at all, but when they came up with a new race, they may well have gone "what does WHFB have? Hmmm... ok, Halflings, I like these bits... how about we add a little bit of Asian influence, and hefty dose of DARPA style technology, heli-tanks and combat drones, that sort of thing? Yeah, lets do that".

It almost certainly wasn't "Lets make cloned Necrontyr!"

LordLucan
17-02-2010, 19:33
Slannoid, not Eldaroid...

Col. Tartleton
17-02-2010, 20:02
I forget, the Necrontyr's sun was damaged during their civilization's lifetime right? By the Old Ones? And that's why they're mad at them? Or was it the C'tan eating their sun that did it? And then why befriend the C'tan and get mad at the old ones? Plot hole...

Because you don't evolve into cancerous mutants naturally. You either are immune to the radiation or you perish and don't evolve. My lack of memory here is why I find it odd that their sun was all rip **** on them.

PxDn Ninja
17-02-2010, 20:28
Recovering a number of artifacts, including the Dawn Blade (the necrodermis remnant of a long-devoured C'tan).

The C'Tan are pure energy. Their bodies are simple analogues for manifesting themselves on a planet. The Dawn Blade, or any C'Tan phase weapon, would be the remains of the body, not the C'Tan itself. Hell it could be the remains of one of the Nightbringer's old bodies.

Though, rereading what you said, I think that is what you were saying, so consider this an endorsement:D



I forget, the Necrontyr's sun was damaged during their civilization's lifetime right? By the Old Ones? And that's why they're mad at them? Or was it the C'tan eating their sun that did it? And then why befriend the C'tan and get mad at the old ones? Plot hole...

Because you don't evolve into cancerous mutants naturally. You either are immune to the radiation or you perish and don't evolve. My lack of memory here is why I find it odd that their sun was all rip **** on them.

The Necrontyr had a low lifespan due to the proximity of their star, and when the learned of the Old Ones, who lived long and easy lives, it made the Necrontyr jealous and they started a war. The Old Ones easily handled the minor inconvienence that the Necrontyr posed, which further enraged them. They started looking to new tech to best their opponent when the discovered an odd energy in their star, which turned out to be a C'Tan. The C'Tan promised them tech to wage their war with (Inertialess drives, Gauss weaponry) and the Necrontyr agreed.

That worked to a point, but the Necrontyr wanted to destroy the old ones. The Deceiver offered to basically make them immortal with the power to destroy the old ones, and thus tricked them into becoming the Necrons.



As to the core of the arguement, I don't know enough about Tau to make a statement, but my roommate plays Tau, so I will be reading their book soon.

DapperAnarchist
17-02-2010, 23:39
I don't think it promised them anything - but by the time they found the C'Tan (The Nightbringer, I believe) they were desperate, having already lost a war (the First War In Heaven, or the first phase of the War) and been pushed back to 'Necronsphere'. When they found the C'Tan in their star, it was simply seen as a weapon, a creature of the same strength as an Old One. They lured it out of the star and into the Necrodermis. After that the C'Tan were able to provide technology, and sheer power. The Deceiver part is correct though...

Azazyll
18-02-2010, 00:33
Don't let the naysayers get you down, Metalgecko, I like the idea. If nothing else, the literary opposites thing works so well, it almost has Games Workshops evil opposite thing going. One is selfless, optimistic, and young, the other envious, soulless, and ancient. They're a little light on the similarities, but the opposites line up so great I almost want them to be the same race.

I can totally see the non-psychic too. Sure, it's not explicit, but the C'tan certainly hate psykers, and the necrontyr's main enemies were the greatest psykers ever know, with whom they were totally incapable of competing on their own terms, so they turned to material technology. And while the star certainly didn't help, the Necrontyr clearly had colonies which did not have death stars (hehe), and they apparently still hated the nigh-immortal Old Ones for their long lives. I like it. Don't particularly care about the specifics, but the tech is similar in a way you don't mention, which is anti-grave tech (although the eldar have this as well). Plus, the tau battle suits and drones demonstrate a solid grasp of robotics (in the aasimovian sci-fi sense), something the Necrontyr clearly mastered. However, the tech matters less, as, if they are related, a dark age (or re-seeding) clearly occurred.

In short, I could totally see the poetic justice of the tau being modified necrontyr. It would be an awesome story twist of the metaplot.

Also, I have never heard the eldar-tau connection. Must not be in the army books. I don't see it on Lexicanum either. Can someone elaborate for me, since it's an open secret? I don't own xenology, but I might get it now!

Come on guys, forums are for fun, not idea-squashing! We're all playing around in a very dorky sandbox, we might as well have a good time together.

MetalGecko23
18-02-2010, 06:31
Nah, there is no reason to get down. Some people think it would have a nice theme to it and others don't. In a discussion you need to have people with opposite opinions or your not discussing anything at all. Though I wish some people wouldn't take proving others wrong as a personal mission.
To me there is thematic similarities.
I see the Necrotyr as non-psychic for theme and because they have developed much time and energy to negating the advantage psykers have over them. It wouldn't make much sense to spend so much time learning to stop psychics if you had them also. If you could create effective counter measures to psychics why not create technology that allows for the impowerment of psykers? Unless you had none of your own which then you will develope only counter measures.
Should there not be psychic Necrons if there were psychic Necrotyr? Tyranids don't seem to have souls yet they can posses psykers.

Firaxin
18-02-2010, 22:20
Because the warp is anathema to the C'Tan... they would have rooted out psychic ability among their slaves as much as they tried against the Old Ones.

Tyranids have A soul.

Quetch
18-02-2010, 22:59
However, the tech matters less, as, if they are related, a dark age (or re-seeding) clearly occurred.

Well, if the Tau are Necrontyr, then they may have redeveloped the tech through discoveries made on these "artefact worlds". Such redevelopment would also explain why they were a race of mud-throwing primitives one millennia, and a potential threat to the Imperium the next. Although we donít know what type of tech the Necrontyr possessed, we know that it was highly advanced, so its entirely possible that this is what Tau based theirs off of.

Devil Tree
19-02-2010, 00:58
To be fair comparing the Tau to humans is a bit faulty since we tend to live a lot longer than most of the critters on this planet. Tau life spans arenít that short in comparison to most mammals of their size. If they were, they shouldnít live much more than 20 years on average. When you think about it that way, having about 40 or so years isnít so bad.

Victrix
19-02-2010, 09:26
Both died young.
One from an outisde influence, the other from genetics.


Both had a drive to persue technology and advancement.
Like every sentient race.[/quote]


Both were none psykers.
As said, we don't know anything about the Necrontyr, let alone Ethereals. Or that whole Farsight issue.


Even some technology has the beginings for cross over, as a gauss weapon uses similar tech as a rail gun.
As stated, incorrect.

Aside from harvesting fleshy vessels for their evil masters nefarious bidding, I fail to see much resemblance.

Lord Damocles
19-02-2010, 10:19
Well, if the Tau are Necrontyr, then they may have redeveloped the tech through discoveries made on these "artefact worlds". Such redevelopment would also explain why they were a race of mud-throwing primitives one millennia, and a potential threat to the Imperium the next.
Or... the change from 'primatives' to 'threat to the Imperium' (not that the Tau are a real threat on the larger scale) is due to time.
I'll not claim to be an expert on Tau background, but if they were discovered by Land's Vision in 789.M35 (Codex: Tau Empire, pg.4), the Ethereals arrived in late M37 (Codex: Tau Empire, pg.5), and over the 'next thousand years' they expanded (Codex: Tau Empire, pg.6), that would amount to about 3000 years of development - which given the help they recieved from various quarters doen't seem particularly outlandish.



Although we donít know what type of tech the Necrontyr possessed, we know that it was highly advanced, so its entirely possible that this is what Tau based theirs off of.
We know something of Necrontyr tech. For example they had living metal and stasis crypts (Codex: Necrons, pg.24). The Tau certainly don't have living metal (not sure about stasis technology).

This line of reasoning is also another example of false logic. It's like saying 'the Templars were secretly at the battle of Bannockburn. The fact that there's no evidence of this *supports* that they were there because they kept their participation secret'.

The Slaan have highly advanced tech which we know almost nothing about. So Tau tech is based on Slaan tech?

Quetch
19-02-2010, 12:11
Or... the change from 'primatives' to 'threat to the Imperium' (not that the Tau are a real threat on the larger scale) is due to time.
I'll not claim to be an expert on Tau background, but if they were discovered by Land's Vision in 789.M35 (Codex: Tau Empire, pg.4), the Ethereals arrived in late M37 (Codex: Tau Empire, pg.5), and over the 'next thousand years' they expanded (Codex: Tau Empire, pg.6), that would amount to about 3000 years of development - which given the help they recieved from various quarters doen't seem particularly outlandish.

If we consider that humans have had 'culture' for more than 5,000 years, and we're still struggling to reach the closest planet in our solar system, let alone start building inter-stellar empires, then the tau advancement is inordinately fast. And by "help they received from various quarters", do you mean the fact that they are persistently being raided, harvested, eaten and sacrificed by other races? War tends to advance technology quicker, but too much can also cause overexertion and technological regression (just look at the imperium); making the fact that they are not only surviving, but thriving all the more impressive. True, the eldar appear to be helping them, but the eldar empire itself is struggling to survive, so I doubt that a few pointers in the right direction from them is whatís making the tau so successful.

LordLucan
19-02-2010, 18:23
I forget, the Necrontyr's sun was damaged during their civilization's lifetime right? By the Old Ones? And that's why they're mad at them? Or was it the C'tan eating their sun that did it? And then why befriend the C'tan and get mad at the old ones? Plot hole...

Erm, no. Their star was unstable, because it had the nightbringer in it. he Old One's had nothing to do with it.


Because you don't evolve into cancerous mutants naturally. You either are immune to the radiation or you perish and don't evolve. My lack of memory here is why I find it odd that their sun was all rip **** on them.

The sun was slowly killing their race, each generation getting shorter, and the generation after it living in the tombs of their ancestors, so inevitable was their own doom. That's why they were desperate to escape their planet.

LordLucan
19-02-2010, 18:26
True, the eldar appear to be helping them, but the eldar empire itself is struggling to survive, so I doubt that a few pointers in the right direction from them is whatís making the tau so successful.

The Eldar gave them Ethereals. Ethereals saved their race from extinction, and re-made the Tau into a dynamic race which expands at a phenominal race. I think the Eldar have a lot to do with why the Tau are so successful. Also, I think the location of their Empire is rather convenient, protected by a warp anomaly and all...

Firaxin
19-02-2010, 19:32
You should factor in the 3000 years of development before the Ethereals showed up, too, because during that time they progressed from wielding spears to the gunpowder age.

And there's nothing saying they weren't locked in that spear-wielding state for a hundred thousand years before Land's Vision arrived. Nor is the possibility commonly considered that time happened differently for them while they were trapped in that warp storm. Then you need to consider the 'cheats' they've had--finding a semi-warp capable starship on their moon, obtaining star charts from the Nicassar and the Kroot, ion technology and iridium armor from the Demiurg, genetically engineered pheromone controlling Ethereals from the Eldar, etc.

Even ignoring the help they've received, the possibility of time differences while in the warp storm, or the amount of time they've been around before Land's Vision found them, 3,000 years from gunpowder to railguns and space travel is about 6 times longer than the 500 years its taken us to go from gunpowder to railguns, laser/sonic weapons, and space travel.