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Agnar the Howler
17-02-2010, 17:26
Counts seem to be becoming a more prevelant army in my GW, and it's the only army there that is ever played at around 3k points, with the other being daemons (to guy who plays them doesn't read the rulebook and likes his Bloodthirster and Bloodcrushers, so I avoid him like the plague his sorcerors wield). In my quest for a 3k pts lizardmen army, i've come up against a little niggle. What can I give my Olblood that will help me vs Counts but also vs other armies?

The general set-up is:
Saurus Oldblood w/ Light armour and Carnosaur

with his possible weapon combos being:

Blade of Realities and Enchanted Shield (Or Talisman of Protection/Bane Head?)
Blade of Revered Tzunki, Enchanted Shield and Bane Head
Blade of Revered Tzunki, Enchanted Shield and Talisman of Protection
Blade of Revered Tzunki and Shield of the Mirrored Pool/Maiming Shield
Blade of Revered Tzunki, Mundane Shield and Glyph Necklace
Scimitar of the Sun, Enchanted Shield and Glyph Necklace
Scimitar of the Sun, Shield of the Mirrored Pool/Maiming Shield (and Talisman of Protection?)
Scimitar of the Sun, Mundane Shield and Glyph Necklace (and Bane Head?)
Burning Blade of Chotek, Enchanted Shield, Glyph Necklace and Bane Head
Burning Blade of Chotek, Shield of the Mirrored Pool/Maiming Shield, Glyph Necklace and Bane head

or any other combos containing those 4 weapons (or even Sword of the Hornet), any of the 3 shields, any of the two talismans and the bane head.

Two set-ups seem quite hard to beat but also deadly, and they're both the BBoC ones, but especially against Vampire Lords where it's 4s to hit and 4s to wound it seems unable to deal enough damage. Any Vampire Lords will probably be dragon-mounted (which, vs a Carnosaur Oldblood gives you one hell of a mental image) which makes it even harder. The BoR will have an easier time nuking lower level vamps, and can have a crack at obliterating the dragon and the lord. I don't know the Ld of a dragon, but a Lord will be a tough nut to crack, especially since this thing doesn't ignore armour saves or anything fancy if the Ld tests are passed.

The BoRT looks like a nice all-rounder, adding more strength to an already tough oldblood AND ignoring armour saves, but still, hitting on 4s with 5 attacks and 6 if frenzied, which he probably will be, so lets go with that, it only comes out as 3 hits, and then with 3s to wound the lord it's only around 2 wounds (rounded up) and if he has a ward save (which he probably will) then that gets lowered further.

The scimitar seems fairly nice, adding 2 attacks (8 total for a frenzied oldblood) but ultimately falling prey to good armour saves. Needing 4s to hit and wound a lord, you only come out with 2 wounds, and with a save most likely at 2+ or 3+ and then most likely a ward save afterwards...

What i'm really looking for a character that is effective against most armies at 3k points but is geared slightly towards fighting VC more than anything. Which means this guy needs to hit hard and be able to take punishment, the two set-ups good at that are the BBoC ones and the BoR ones, but i'm still not sure.

EDIT: I didn't include the 'rana blade because my scar vet has that for when he goes caster hunting.

Haravikk
17-02-2010, 19:04
Doesn't the maiming shield give you +1 attack? That could serve as a good balanced set-up with the Blade of Revered Tzunki, as you'd have +1 attack, +1 strength, and ignore armour saves.

Ideally you'd try to add flaming attacks to that but I'm not familiar enough with the 7th edition equipment. One of the talismans is likely a must to get yourself a ward-save, or make your character harder to hit, as you should be ready for the combat to drag out no matter how hard-hitting you can make your character.

The alternative is just to spend all the points on loads of skinks and just wear him down with a huge number of poisoned attacks, pretty much anything can be beaten with a few groups of skinks, and often quite cheaply too :)

N810
17-02-2010, 19:15
while the maming gives you one more attack
it is at your base WS and ST since you are hiting with the shield
you don't get the bonuses from the the magic weapon you are also using.


Ps. personaly I would use this one to go after Vampires...
"Burning Blade of Chotek, Enchanted Shield, Glyph Necklace and Bane Head"

Ethos
17-02-2010, 20:03
Tooling up a Lord:

to kill more unit troops - more attacks.

to kill characters - more strength.

With fewer attacks that can get through his armor, having the potential of 1 or 2 wounds after combat is resolved is definitely a frightening thing (especially from a Vampire player).

I run my Vampire Lord with 4+ armour, 5+ ward, and 4+ regen (though I could go for a 4+ ward and become stupid - but my LD is 10, so it might not matter). 3 Wounds, Toughness 5.

If you can ignore the armor, fine. The regen comes from being in the unit with the BSB - so also try to kill him.

Once you get rid of the BSB, and if you can ignore armor, all I have left is a 5+ (or 4+ ward). If you get even 2 wounds through, that's potentially killing me in only 2 rounds.

Not sure if you can have the tactics to do it... but uf it's possible, it surely will scare the Vamp. player as he'll be trying to do whatever he can to win combat (raise stuff, flank charge, etc.)

The_Bureaucrat
17-02-2010, 22:53
Piranaha blade and bane head can be very useful, one lucky wound can kill the lord out right and than you don't have to worry about healing with invocation.
Also if hes on a dragon, make sure your carnosaur kills the dragonall those extra wounds lead to more CR and therefore more wounds on the lord.

Grey Mage
18-02-2010, 07:43
Well against a Vampire Lord like Ethos has brought forth Id run:

Great Weapon, Light Armor, Shield of the Mirrored Pool, Venom of the Fire Fly, Extra Hand weapon, Horned One.

Why? Because a saurus lord will always be striking after any character that could be a threat to him anyways, and the extra hand weapon gives you more attacks *thatll wound on a 2+ against most anything thats not a monster anyways* if you need them, while venom is there just to make sure its all magical, allowing you to hurt spirit hosts etc. The Horned One means your fast enough to get the enemy but can still hide in a unit if you so choose *against other armies this is far more important, say tournaments?* and gives you a nice charge range kind of like the old JSoD.

This leaves him with just his regeneration save, wich admittedly the burning blade would remove, but has the benefit of wounding on a 2+.... and being able to pop a black coach if its to be seen.

Stumpy
18-02-2010, 07:54
Can't use an additional weapon when you're mounted.

I'd kit him for killing general badassery units. Any vampire player worth his salt would not let his lord anywhere near an oldblood, especially if he's on a carnosaur (after all, the carnosaur wounds on 2's and does multiple wounds).
In any case I'd never use the carnosaur. Sweet model, potential damage, however the thing an oldblood has over other fighty lords is his refusal to die. The carnosaur is easy combat res for him.
Given you're fighting undead, I'd go with revered tzunki, sword of might or burning blade with shield or enchanted shield and the amulet of itzl on a cold one. You have a character that can absorb a charge from black knights (even with killing blow) and come out on top, kill wraiths, and if you have the burning blade you can get past that pesky regeneration.
Screw the skellies and his characters will avoid you, go for killing anything else that would give your army trouble.

phoenixcrh
18-02-2010, 08:06
Try these, my friend always uses these builds and has a ton of success against most opponents :)

Character killer = saurus oldblood, blade of revered tzunki, enchanted shield, carnasaur pendant, light armour, cold one = 285.
He gets 6 attacks at strength 6 with no armour saves, he has a -1 armour save.

Unit killer = saurus oldblood, scimitar of the sun resplendent, maiming shield, carnasaur pendant, light armour, cold one = 285.
He gets 9 attacks at strength 5, he has a 0+ armour save.

Alltaken
18-02-2010, 12:52
Here's the one I'm using this weekend:

Scimitar + bande head + Glyph Necklace
Lght armourm, shield, CO

he's a halfway a unit killer and character killer with enough defence. Bane head makes up any S lack or armour penetration. Though Burning Blade might just work, regen's a b*tch sometimes

I like it for the balance and versatility

Agnar the Howler
18-02-2010, 12:58
Whulst I appreciate all the cold-one and horned one suggestions, i'm steadfast about using the carnosaur, so please could all loadouts bear that in mind?

Currently it seems that i'm going with either:
BoRT, ES + BH
BoRT, ES + ToP
BBoC, ES, GN + BH

N810
18-02-2010, 13:10
Hey don't forget...

"Q. How do two items that cause double
wounds combine? For example, both the
Piranha Blade and Bane Head double wounds
caused. Would this typically result in 3
wounds or 4?
A. Four."

so if you are feeling lucky you could kit out your oldblood
with the banehead, parana blade, and mameing shield
and it any wounds make it through you are looking at one dead vampire,
also it might be fun to chalange any campions he might have
for a massive over kill bonus.

StarFyreXXX
18-02-2010, 13:32
WHy do you say our lord's difference is his refusal to die?

Lord seems to die fairly easily (last few games i've done...vs Chaos knight armies with tzeentch lords flying around on discs blasting spells at everything)...

Regards,

Sanjay

Alltaken
18-02-2010, 13:35
Oldblood's got T5, easily a 2+ AS, and for 30 points you get 5+ ward save. Pretty resilient if you ask me

Alltaken
18-02-2010, 13:39
Whulst I appreciate all the cold-one and horned one suggestions, i'm steadfast about using the carnosaur, so please could all loadouts bear that in mind?

Currently it seems that i'm going with either:
BoRT, ES + BH
BoRT, ES + ToP
BBoC, ES, GN + BH

I'd go for the last, seems a better build. It'll get light armour, right?

Agnar the Howler
18-02-2010, 14:08
Hey don't forget...

"Q. How do two items that cause double
wounds combine? For example, both the
Piranha Blade and Bane Head double wounds
caused. Would this typically result in 3
wounds or 4?
A. Four."

so if you are feeling lucky you could kit out your oldblood
with the banehead, parana blade, and mameing shield
and it any wounds make it through you are looking at one dead vampire,
also it might be fun to chalange any campions he might have
for a massive over kill bonus.

The 'rana blade belongs to my scar vet who'll be Hero hunting the lesser characters like basic IoN spamming vamps. The Lord hunting will be left to the oldblood and the Slaan (who'll also be targetting any blood knight or black knight units and grave guard).


WHy do you say our lord's difference is his refusal to die?

Lord seems to die fairly easily (last few games i've done...vs Chaos knight armies with tzeentch lords flying around on discs blasting spells at everything)...

Because LM don't have Tzeentch lords on Discs flying around blasting everything...


Oldblood's got T5, easily a 2+ AS, and for 30 points you get 5+ ward save. Pretty resilient if you ask me.
I'd go for the last, seems a better build. It'll get light armour, right?

a 2+ AS only really matters if you're facing Str3/Str4, Str5+ (some hero/lord strength) is making that 2+ save into a 4+ save. Theres a lance I saw used two saturdays back that basically allowed the vampire lord to eat everything in it's path, if it manages to get the charge on me then chances are that my armour save isn't going to matter all too much, he was also a fan of Vanhel's Dance which means that he's gunna have a better chance of charging me than I am of charging him, so i'm gunna have to hope that I can throw som DD at him or he's gunna be grabbing several S7 strikes at me before I even get to hit him.

As for LA, yes, my Oldblood has it.

Ok, so it looks like the BBoC, ES, GN + BH is the winning combo, although i'm still considering the BoRT, ES + BH/ToP loudouts if anyone wants to try and math-hammer them for me against a Vampire Lord with a 2+ AS, that lance I mentioned earlier (don't have the name) and any of the ward saves that are possible with the build, first on a regular mount and then on a dragon. I'd do it myself but maths has never been my strong-point.

N810
18-02-2010, 14:17
So whats the Vapires LD ?


Quote: Dokushin

Just for reference, here's the odds of killing something outright, just with the on hit effect of the Blade of Realities (this does NOT take into account normal wounding)

Note it's rounded to hundredths -- certainty is of course never guaranteed. Down is leadership, across is number of hits.


Ld\Hi 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
2 97.20% 99.92% 100.00% 100.00% 100.00% 100.00% 100.00% 100.00% 100.00% 100.00%
3 91.70% 99.31% 99.94% 100.00% 100.00% 100.00% 100.00% 100.00% 100.00% 100.00%
4 83.30% 97.21% 99.53% 99.92% 99.99% 100.00% 100.00% 100.00% 100.00% 100.00%
5 72.20% 92.27% 97.85% 99.40% 99.83% 99.95% 99.99% 100.00% 100.00% 100.00%
6 58.30% 82.61% 92.75% 96.98% 98.74% 99.47% 99.78% 99.91% 99.96% 99.98%
7 41.70% 66.01% 80.18% 88.45% 93.26% 96.07% 97.71% 98.67% 99.22% 99.55%
8 27.80% 47.87% 62.36% 72.83% 80.38% 85.83% 89.77% 92.62% 94.67% 96.15%
9 16.70% 30.61% 42.20% 51.85% 59.89% 66.59% 72.17% 76.82% 80.69% 83.91%
10 8.30% 15.91% 22.89% 29.29% 35.16% 40.54% 45.48% 50.00% 54.15% 57.96%

Agnar the Howler
18-02-2010, 17:06
Vampires are Ld7, Vampire Lords are Ld10, unsure of what dragon Ld is.

A frenzied oldblood on carnosaur has a 22.89% chance of killing a vampire lord with the BoR, great xD

Now to try and use my meagre math skills!

Assuming the Oldblood isn't frenzied, it's more like a ~19.4% chance of doing it.

A none frenzied BoRT oldblood deals 2.5 hits and then ~2 wounds (rounded up because i'm not good enough to find the exact number :P), mutliplied by the bane head is 4 wounds if there's no ward save. A 4+ ward save reduces that to just 1 wound un-multiplied, and 2 if multiplied by the bane head.
A frenzied oldblood with the same set-up (BoRT, ES and BH) will deal very much the same, with 3 hits and 2 wounds, with very little difference. Obviously regeneration will have a part to play if it's there.

A non-frenzied Oldblood with BBoC, ES, GN and BH will deal 2.5 hits and 1.25 wounds. Assuming the armour save is 2+, the save is now reduced to 5+ and the wound should not be saved, a 4+ ward save will mean 0.625 wounds will be unsaved, multiplied to 1.25 by the bane head. Rounding upwards gives you 2 wounds that also ignore regeneration.
A frenzied oldblood gives 3 hits, 1.5 wounds that should not be saved, with a 4+ ward save reducing that to 0.75, rounded up to 1, brought to two by the bane head. This also ignores any regneration.

Both the BoRT and BBoC with bane head come up with 2 unsaved wounds when facing a 2+ armour save, 4+ ward save vamp. lord, however, if regneration is thrown in there, then the numbers get chucked about a bit more, but BBoC comes on top due to it ignoring regen and not having to face a further 4+ save against it.

Anyone who wishes to challenge my maths may do so, but please bear in mind that maths has never been my strongpoint and that mistakes are probably rife. However, if it will all come to the same conclusion (BBoC wins) anyway, then please don't bother, and let me stew in my own ignorance :P

N810
18-02-2010, 17:15
But he has a 80.18% chance of killing the regular Ld7 Vampires :eek:

Agnar the Howler
18-02-2010, 17:59
That's what I use my hero for, although good armour will stop him. What AS to regular IoN spamming/casty vampire heros usually have? A 3+ or worse should be relatively easy to deal with using a scar vet with the 'rana blade.

Stumpy
18-02-2010, 21:59
WHy do you say our lord's difference is his refusal to die?

Lord seems to die fairly easily (last few games i've done...vs Chaos knight armies with tzeentch lords flying around on discs blasting spells at everything)...

Regards,

Sanjay

My oldblood setup (which never changes no matter what) is LA, cold one, enchanted shield, sword of might, amulet of itzl, carnosaur pendant.
WS6, T5, W3, -1+ armour, 1-use 2+ ward, 6 str 6 attacks and doesn't worry about being outnumbered by terror, thus cheerfully goes toe to toe with greater daemons and star dragons (usually wins, but certainly gets enough time for you to flank it). No cavalry and very few monsters can take him down. I remember seeing some chaos knights of khorne, I didn't have units around for baiting and such so just plonked my olblood in charge range. Hilarious. Then in the same game he took a gateway (7 str 8 I think) and survived.