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wazatdingder
20-02-2010, 03:03
For years the Heresy was the stuff of myth and legend, but now it is all being laid out in the Horus Heresy books. As a T-sons player I have been force to get creative with my own army fluff to create a diverse T-sons force. Happy with what I have created I now have mixed feelings about the upcoming T-son books. Will they destroy everything I have come up with or will they make it better? Do I want to show up at a game and have my opponent point out how Un-T-Sons my army is?

What is your opinion? Do the books help or hinder the gamers creativity?

Baracus
20-02-2010, 03:05
Mixed. They help because some players might go brian dead and have no ideas well others are being held back with the coprate greed not letting do wht they want.

WinglessVT2
20-02-2010, 03:18
No.
The books are mostly bad, and the majority of them just drag on and on and on.

It's supposed to be the actual stuff of myths and legend. That's part of the charm.

druchii lord narakh
20-02-2010, 03:30
i think they need more of the emperor in fights and the primarch fighting in a more romantic(as in very descriptive fighting) then most are in now. MORE SENGUINUS!! AND PERTURABO

Brother Mordeus
20-02-2010, 04:33
Ya true the books would be better if more of the iconic sutff from the heresy where more present. The primarchs don't fight enough, the emperor, we never see him, i don't know i love the books but they could be better, some of them.

Devil Tree
20-02-2010, 05:54
No. One of the reasons I stopped reading the Horus Heresy series is because it started reminding me too much of the Star Wars prequels. Take Horus for example. He doesn’t come across as a powerful and charismatic Primarch that betrayed everything he once held dear, but a whiny little punk that went crying to the dark side for some inane reason.:wtf:

When it comes to myths and legends I think a “less is more” approach is a better way of handling it. Take the 2 lost Space Marine Legions for example they’re more interesting because they’re mysterious, we know virtually nothing about them.

vladsimpaler
20-02-2010, 08:04
The less we know, the better.

I actually wouldn't mind it if a lot of the background that we have today was removed.

As of now, it's virtually impossible to make up your own story about a captain of the treacher legions because it clashes with "established" canon.

I know, I tried. I made a World Eaters captain who took his troops and ditched the World Eaters because of the loss on Earth.

Whoops! Guess I can't do that. :rolleyes:
Oh and it didn't help that he preferred fighting at range.


But yeah, it's like the Star Wars prequels.

Xisor
20-02-2010, 08:14
Yes, there's exceptionally talented authors out there who've got a fair amount to really add to the Heresy. Alone, I like the approaches taken for example:
- Dan Abnett's almost-everything in Horus Rising
- Graham McNeil's Adept Zoriel in Mechanicum
- Ben Counter's Mhotep in Battle for the Abyss
- Swallow's Eisenstein in general
- Fallen Angels, excellent book
- Matt Farrer's Anrgon & Kharn in After Desh'ea
- Abnett's Chapter 7 in Legion
- Whoever it was that wrote Sigismund's conversation with Loken
- Gav's Raven's Flight

Despite loathing a fair few things (McNeil's Horus/Erebus/Magnus in False Gods, the Word Bearers so far, Counter's Ultramarines etc), I really, genuinely feel I'm enjoying it more than I was before.

Contrast the little paragraph 'Flight of the Eistenstein with the novel.

The 'original' was superb but, excepting the somewhat pedestrian nature of Grulgor's character, I think the novel really fleshed the idea out very well. I don't think I've read (or reread) a book with quite as much excitement as I have Flight of the Eistenstein before or since reading it.

sigur
20-02-2010, 08:19
No. It's (as well as the whole golden crusade and everything) should be kept in a vague fashion, like ancient sagas/tales. Gives the whole story much more of an impact.

FlashGordon
20-02-2010, 08:57
Yes, there's exceptionally talented authors out there who've got a fair amount to really add to the Heresy. Alone, I like the approaches taken for example:
- Dan Abnett's almost-everything in Horus Rising
- Graham McNeil's Adept Zoriel in Mechanicum
- Ben Counter's Mhotep in Battle for the Abyss
- Swallow's Eisenstein in general
- Fallen Angels, excellent book
- Matt Farrer's Anrgon & Kharn in After Desh'ea
- Abnett's Chapter 7 in Legion
- Whoever it was that wrote Sigismund's conversation with Loken
- Gav's Raven's Flight

Despite loathing a fair few things (McNeil's Horus/Erebus/Magnus in False Gods, the Word Bearers so far, Counter's Ultramarines etc), I really, genuinely feel I'm enjoying it more than I was before.

Contrast the little paragraph 'Flight of the Eistenstein with the novel.

The 'original' was superb but, excepting the somewhat pedestrian nature of Grulgor's character, I think the novel really fleshed the idea out very well. I don't think I've read (or reread) a book with quite as much excitement as I have Flight of the Eistenstein before or since reading it.

Thats strange i found FotE very boorin comparing to the three before it. But since you like it and have good taste(and i know from lurking threads) maybe i should give it a second chance.

Filthy O'Bedlam
20-02-2010, 08:57
Two Words: Istvaan Four. I want them to do a book about the Dropsite Massacres. They don't have to fill in the blacks when it comes to the Primarchs, but I at least want to know what happened there. It's always been a favourite part of the backstory for me.
One can Hope

Cheers, Filthy

Shadowheart
20-02-2010, 09:44
Nope. I haven't bothered with any of the Heresy stuff. I got the first novel in a batch of Black Library books I bought second hand, so I suppose I'll give that a shot sooner or later, but I think the whole concept is fundamentally, well, lame.

The Heresy works as part of 40K background, and even there I think it's overrated. The Index Astartes series became a real drag when it went over the same thing eighteen times. Less is more here, I think.

But as a story in its own right I just don't see how it's worth telling. It's important in the context of 40K - it was crucial to the development of the bulk of the setting, after all. But without that context it seems like it'd be very dull. I mean, the appeal is basically that during the Heresy, everything was totally über and legendary compared to the 41st millennium. And it's not like 40K is low-key to start with.

Anyway, I've developed a distate for stories that declare themselves to be epic before they even get started. When it comes to 40K I'd rather read a stand-alone action/adventure story - which can always develop into something bigger if the interest is there.

PatrikW
20-02-2010, 09:55
Nope.

Reroll the fluff back to the 2ed codices add the inquisitor rule book, the bfg rulebook and we are done =)

The Black library books should be keept out of world altering events and be much more restricted in the use of well know characters/worlds/chapters and so on.


The Index Astartes series became a real drag when it went over the same thing eighteen times. Less is more here, I think.
Agree, the first was great fun but it was to much of the same and all chapters where the greatest, it would have benefited from being more coherent and compact.

Gazak Blacktoof
20-02-2010, 09:57
I liked the mystery and so I've avoided all contact with the heresy era novels

Radium
20-02-2010, 10:18
Two Words: Istvaan Four. I want them to do a book about the Dropsite Massacres. They don't have to fill in the blacks when it comes to the Primarchs, but I at least want to know what happened there. It's always been a favourite part of the backstory for me.
One can Hope

Cheers, Filthy

You might want to read Fulgrim (or at least the ending of it).

But the Heresy should be the mythic backdrop for the modern conflict of Chaos - Imperium, not some well known fairy tale :S. Knowing Horus - for some reason - betrayed the Imperium should be all there is to it. Exactly what he was thinking when he did so should only be wild speculation, nothing more.
That said, I rather enjoy reading the books from time to time - especially while sitting in the train.

BigBossOgryn
20-02-2010, 10:27
I have really enjoyed the HH books so far. I thought Decent of Angels was a little slow but then I read Angels of Darkness and now Fallen Angels, so suddenly it makes a lot more sense.

I think that maybe some people have missed (what I feel) is the actual point of the books. That era of 40K's background was not 'mythical' it was vague because GW did not have the time or resources to flesh it out. By all accounts it was Horus, his Primarch buddies and some Space Marines beating up on the Emperor, his Primarch buddies and some other Space Marines.

These books show the more human side of the Space Marines and their Primarchs. That they weren't always unthinking idiot robots who were about as dynamic and feeling as their plastic counterparts on our table-tops. These books are about infusing the legend with a measure of humanity and showing that ultimately for all their demi-god type stature, they were still just humans, with the same weaknesses and desires as the rest of us.

Horus was far from a whiny so and so. Imagine you were effectively God's son and charged with the greatest quest known to existence, only to be shown a future where you didn't mean ****. Want to ask daddy about that? Sorry, he's busy doing 'something' and by the way: God has given control of the quest to a bunch of chartered accountants.

Iracundus
20-02-2010, 10:27
No, to the current pulp that has brought down the ancient mythic character of the original Heresy background. As detailed in the 2nd edition Chaos Codex, the CSM are not meant to just be evil spiky marines but echoes from the very birth of the Imperium, a past that has become myth and legend to the current 40K era. The Heresy was modeled after the revolt of the angels and Horus was in the role of Lucifer. They should have kept to that but the more recent Heresy stuff has brought things down. Primarchs come off as spoilt superheroes rather than archangels/future archdemons. If they could do Heresy background as good as say Milton's Paradise Lost then it would be great but I don't think BL has a Milton equivalent in their stable of writers.

Noserenda
20-02-2010, 10:31
Nah keep em coming! (Although keep Counter away from things he cant write!) Im enjoying the series so far, even if Legion did invalidate a hefty amount of my PH Alpha Legion army :skull: Ah well, its an awesome book so I can forgive.

Tae
20-02-2010, 10:38
I've absolutely loved all the HH books (though some more than others) and personally prefer that the 'grey bits' are being filled in. I still believe there's more than enough room for people to invent their own background, though appreciate that some players existing background might be 'invalidated' by the HH books.

However the one thing I love the books for is the scale of the treachery. Seeing how close some brothers were (notably Fulgrim and Ferrus, amongst others) and seeing how that devolved, coupled with instances of things coming so close to being okay (such as Loken almost finding out about Chaos) only add to the joy I take in reading about the background.

Filthy O'Bedlam
20-02-2010, 11:20
You might want to read Fulgrim (or at least the ending of it).

I have, and I'll grant you that it does great justice to the Emperor's Children
and the Iron Hands, the rest is pretty much just presented as "And then the Drop Site Massacres Happened". I wnat a more in depth examination than that.

Cheers, Filthy

AndrewGPaul
20-02-2010, 11:31
treacher legions

"treacher"? "Traitor", surely.



I know, I tried. I made a World Eaters captain who took his troops and ditched the World Eaters because of the loss on Earth.

Whoops! Guess I can't do that. :rolleyes:
Oh and it didn't help that he preferred fighting at range.


Why not? the novels haven't got to Earth yet, never mind what happens afterwards. There'll still be plenty of Terran Marines in all the legions; not all of them will be Angron's psychopaths.

nightgant98c
20-02-2010, 13:18
I think they're a good addition to the background. Especially for those of us less creative types.

BigBossOgryn
20-02-2010, 13:44
No, to the current pulp that has brought down the ancient mythic character of the original Heresy background. As detailed in the 2nd edition Chaos Codex, the CSM are not meant to just be evil spiky marines but echoes from the very birth of the Imperium, a past that has become myth and legend to the current 40K era. The Heresy was modeled after the revolt of the angels and Horus was in the role of Lucifer. They should have kept to that but the more recent Heresy stuff has brought things down. Primarchs come off as spoilt superheroes rather than archangels/future archdemons. If they could do Heresy background as good as say Milton's Paradise Lost then it would be great but I don't think BL has a Milton equivalent in their stable of writers.

The fact that CSM's in the current codex come across as spiky marines with friends and don't match the ones from the Heresy is more to do with ****** codex writing than anything else. The fact that these guys have existed as long as they have in the hells that they now call home, can never be reflected on the table-top because of balance or whatever. It's also common knowledge that army fluff from codices is always changed to suit the current flavour anyway.

I agree that essentially the Heresy was modelled after the fall of Lucifer but then there are more than one interpretations of that particular story in modern fiction and television (I like Supernatural's take on it personally). The whole Lucifer Vs. God situation was essentially a rebellion, which the HH is. Horus has seen what the Imperium will become and seeks to stop it from ever happening. The other Primarchs who deify Horus to lesser of greater extents follow willingly with others either being duped or forced by circumstance to join (Alpha Legion and Emperor's Children). I really fail to see how they come across as spoilt superheroes.

I read Paradise Lost and wasn't impressed by the way, that's all a matter of taste.

metal bawks
20-02-2010, 14:12
I avoid the HH series since I prefer it to be a time of half-forgotten myths and legends.


"treacher"? "Traitor", surely.

Treacher is an actual word, and means the same thing as traitor. I learned that when some RT-era book mentioned something like "treacher legions" and I thought it was a typo ;)

CasperTheGhost
20-02-2010, 14:16
As of now, it's virtually impossible to make up your own story about a captain of the treacher legions because it clashes with "established" canon.

I know, I tried. I made a World Eaters captain who took his troops and ditched the World Eaters because of the loss on Earth.

Whoops! Guess I can't do that. :rolleyes:
Oh and it didn't help that he preferred fighting at range.

Why can't you do that? I fail to see how you can't even do something about loyalist World Eaters that weren't on Isstavan. It requires just a bit more creativity. There is no rock solid line (as far as I can see) that say all of the World Eaters were there and so it is fairly easy to rework an idea to explain various things.


Mixed. They help because some players might go brian dead and have no ideas well others are being held back with the coprate greed not letting do wht they want.

Coprate greed? Really? If you don't want to read the background, don't and ignore it. I doubt there will be a huge uproar of people baying for your blood and wanting to lynch you for it.

I do find that fact that many people are saying that, due to the HH books, they can't do anything creative ironic considering that all it takes is a bit more thought to do such. The HH books don't take everything into account, they merely look at various parts of the Heresy and Pre-Heresy. If you want to do something from that time preiod then whats stopping you?

Ok so taking something from say the new Thousand Sons novel which I'm reading at the moment it gives you that there are 9 'Companies' and I believe it might name all their captains. All that seems to me to do is stop you from creating a new company which may be a bit annoying but does not matter in the long run. It does not mean that from now on everyone Librian/Captain you have has to be named the same as them. No. The Great Crusade took place over the such a broad space there would be many such Space Marine leader assigned tasks by their Company captain during a particular war etc. So use that as a basis.

Its not hard to think of another idea to use alongside the, now-written, Crusade background as far as I see it.

I personally think the books are a refreshing change. A fair few of them are well written and engaging. Agreed that some are far from the best but then thats the way it goes. I'm happy for them to still be written.

Gorbad Ironclaw
20-02-2010, 16:14
The Horus Heresy series have been one of my pet peeves for a long time. I don't think it should have been written. IMO it worked much better as a mythical creation story that wasn't terribly well flushed out.

I think the resources/books could have been used much better to explore the current setting, rather than the setting 10.000 years ago, and actually expand the setting, something I don't feel the HH books do. In some ways the opposite actually as they codify the past and say "this is how it was" about a period of time that was always only half remembered and filled with myths.

tuebor
20-02-2010, 16:27
I very much preferred when they left the events of the Heresy as myth and legend, but that being said I've enjoyed several of the Heresy books. On those days where I'm more prone to nerdrage I just tell myself that they're one version of the story being told throughout the galaxy in M41 and not necessarily the absolute truth.

TheMav80
20-02-2010, 16:30
I don't get how keeping everything a big vague secret makes the backround any more mythological.

Most of our own myths and legends are pretty well documented in classic literature. Achilles may as well be a Space Marine.

Jind_Singh
20-02-2010, 18:02
I have really enjoyed the HH books so far. I thought Decent of Angels was a little slow but then I read Angels of Darkness and now Fallen Angels, so suddenly it makes a lot more sense.

I think that maybe some people have missed (what I feel) is the actual point of the books. That era of 40K's background was not 'mythical' it was vague because GW did not have the time or resources to flesh it out. By all accounts it was Horus, his Primarch buddies and some Space Marines beating up on the Emperor, his Primarch buddies and some other Space Marines.

These books show the more human side of the Space Marines and their Primarchs. That they weren't always unthinking idiot robots who were about as dynamic and feeling as their plastic counterparts on our table-tops. These books are about infusing the legend with a measure of humanity and showing that ultimately for all their demi-god type stature, they were still just humans, with the same weaknesses and desires as the rest of us.

Horus was far from a whiny so and so. Imagine you were effectively God's son and charged with the greatest quest known to existence, only to be shown a future where you didn't mean ****. Want to ask daddy about that? Sorry, he's busy doing 'something' and by the way: God has given control of the quest to a bunch of chartered accountants.

Couldn't have wored it any better myself - I love the series bar one or two mishaps of books - were I think WTF were they smoking when they wrote that crap - but otherwise an excellent series which is reall yfilling in the blansk nicely.

BBWags
20-02-2010, 18:14
I voted "yes," but if I could, I would have said, "yes, but make the books good, dangit." If they all were at the level of the first 3-4, I'd be happy, but I just finished "Fulgrim" and it was bad. I mean. BAD. And I hear they keep going downhill.

So yes, give us the fluff so we can relish the story . . . but do so with talent, please. Do some research, find out what makes sense. Just because a vast portion of the 40k are kids (or those who are childlike in mind, haha) doesn't mean we're stupid. Do some homework and THINK before you write, please!

Given time, I could write something better than Fulgrim myself. Goodness.

The pestilent 1
20-02-2010, 18:24
I'd like to know who it is exactly holding you at gunpoint and forcing you to accept these books as gospel truths.

Or indeed, how exactly a renegade world eater is "unfluffy" given that they have had roughly five seconds of face time thus far?

CasperTheGhost
20-02-2010, 18:58
I voted "yes," but if I could, I would have said, "yes, but make the books good, dangit." If they all were at the level of the first 3-4, I'd be happy, but I just finished "Fulgrim" and it was bad. I mean. BAD. And I hear they keep going downhill.

So yes, give us the fluff so we can relish the story . . . but do so with talent, please. Do some research, find out what makes sense. Just because a vast portion of the 40k are kids (or those who are childlike in mind, haha) doesn't mean we're stupid. Do some homework and THINK before you write, please!

Given time, I could write something better than Fulgrim myself. Goodness.

What in particular did you find bad about it? Was it how Fulgrim was turned because, quite frankly, I thought it was one of the better ways that it could have been done. What did you expect:


Dear Fulgrim,
I have a big favour to ask you. I know that you love dad and all, strive to be perfect like him and all that jazz but quite frankly I think he's a bit of a knob. So can I ask you to be on my side now that I've decided to go on a little rampage across the galaxy, mudering and pillaging everything we've sought to built and kill Dad?

If you do betray all you believe in I'll let you keep Dad's shiny armour!

Yours Faithfully
Horus, Warmaster, The big H.

Yes I wasn't the biggest fan of Fulgrim but I don't see how it was that bad of a book. And to be quite honest I would like to see you write better. If you do then I will in fact apolgise for naysaying.

BigBossOgryn
20-02-2010, 19:25
That's a dangerous thing to say CaspertheGhost. People will have varying opinions on the book, whether they feel it was badly written or a poor story or whatever but it's just that: opinions. I personally enjoyed Fulgrim and don't let other peoples dislikes concern me, especially if they are ill-founded or worded in a way that suggests they are in the same demographic as the crowd they are bemoaning.

Sorry BBWags, I really fail to see where you are coming from in your agrument, could you elaborate?

DeadlySquirrel
20-02-2010, 19:30
i say yes. but make it like the christian gospel (no im not a bible-basher =p) and have several version of how it happened rather than one deffinitive one

BigBossOgryn
20-02-2010, 19:34
i say yes. but make it like the christian gospel (no im not a bible-basher =p) and have several version of how it happened rather than one deffinitive one

Seriously? By all accounts they can't even get one version straight let alone multiple ones.

Chiron
20-02-2010, 19:37
No.
The books are mostly bad, and the majority of them just drag on and on and on.

It's supposed to be the actual stuff of myths and legend. That's part of the charm.

Exactly this, the heresy is meant to the stuff of legends, BL books are however the stuff of nightmares

DeadlySquirrel
20-02-2010, 19:37
Seriously? By all accounts they can't even get one version straight let alone multiple ones.

who? GW or Christians?

Or neither :D

BigBossOgryn
20-02-2010, 19:43
Exactly this, the heresy is meant to the stuff of legends, BL books are however the stuff of nightmares

Okay, hold on. The Heresy is the stuff of legends right? Is not the point of legends to be recorded somewhere for people to read and appreciate? Before the HH series began, you had some vague fluff spread throughout a load of codices and some half-realised stuff in art books. Collectively, this told people nothing and if gathered would have filled a leaflet at best. It's also great for people that haven't been playing 40K since day 0 like myself.

Also, don't forget: us gamers aren't the only people that read GW related novels. For people that haven't got a clue about the 40K universe beyond what is presented in these books, they are a really good starting place.

Again I ask: why do you feel this way?


who? GW or Christians?

Or neither :D

Both.

DeadlySquirrel
20-02-2010, 19:46
I meant both btw, and yeah i wished theyd make up their minds. And also stop cramming their minds down my throats (im looking at you, redshirts)

but by having several tales of the same thing, we know what happened, but the diversity of facts show the "myths and legends" bit

Chiron
20-02-2010, 19:48
Again I ask: why do you feel this way?

I'm not interested in hearing the truth behind the half truths and tall tales that the heresy is composed of, and before you say "but the books are just one interpration" I'll respond with not for the majority of the fans who'll bitch about anything else not being canon

AndrewGPaul
20-02-2010, 19:54
Like others, I don't mind the idea of telling these stories. What I object to is it being done badly. Fulgrim was a good story badly told, IMO. Battle for the Abyss was terrible and unnecessary and Legion and Mechanicum added plot twists that I didn't think needed to be there. I'm cautiously looking forward to the Prospero duology, but the sooner they get back onto the main story of Horus' exploits the better.

BigBossOgryn
20-02-2010, 20:01
That's fine. I understand that there are people who would rather it remain vague but there are people who would like the vagaries gone and replaced with a canon explaination, myself included. The HH series is just what you said: an interpretation. You either except it as that and read them or you dismiss and ignore them.

Void Reaper
06-03-2010, 02:58
I dig the HH books, especially when they make vague references to "ancient" Earth (I particularly love the references to Merica!) I was somewhat disappointed by Horus's turn against the Emperor (I would have liked that to be the bulk of that book, not just a few chapters), and I loved the twist in Legion.

As for HH invalidating people's armies...You guys must be playing with some real *******, if they moan and groan because your army is different than the novels which were written AFTER you built your army. The 10,000 years since the Heresy were filled with lots of badness, so a Chaos Space Marine army in the 41st Millenium could very well be TOTALLY different than its HH predecessor.

Samus_aran115
06-03-2010, 03:01
No.
The books are mostly bad, and the majority of them just drag on and on and on.

It's supposed to be the actual stuff of myths and legend. That's part of the charm.

Good post. I agree, but I still want the option to read the fluff. Just cause it exists doesn't mean you have to read it if it's no good. That's how I feel about rynn's world.

Earthbeard
06-03-2010, 11:03
I like reading, and I've enjoyed the majority of the HH books so far.

texancowboy
06-03-2010, 12:29
I have really enjoyed the HH books so far. I thought Decent of Angels was a little slow but then I read Angels of Darkness and now Fallen Angels, so suddenly it makes a lot more sense.

I think that maybe some people have missed (what I feel) is the actual point of the books. That era of 40K's background was not 'mythical' it was vague because GW did not have the time or resources to flesh it out. By all accounts it was Horus, his Primarch buddies and some Space Marines beating up on the Emperor, his Primarch buddies and some other Space Marines.

These books show the more human side of the Space Marines and their Primarchs. That they weren't always unthinking idiot robots who were about as dynamic and feeling as their plastic counterparts on our table-tops. These books are about infusing the legend with a measure of humanity and showing that ultimately for all their demi-god type stature, they were still just humans, with the same weaknesses and desires as the rest of us.

Horus was far from a whiny so and so. Imagine you were effectively God's son and charged with the greatest quest known to existence, only to be shown a future where you didn't mean ****. Want to ask daddy about that? Sorry, he's busy doing 'something' and by the way: God has given control of the quest to a bunch of chartered accountants.

i completely agree