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kyuzo
20-02-2010, 02:28
I had a giant who was marked with slaanesh(gives him ASF) get charged by a unit of graveguard with a vamp lord(equipped with nightshroud). As per the giant special attack I roll a D6 to see what he does before any targeting happens. I rolled "pick up and..." which has me target a model, gives the model 1 attack to defend, and if he fails I proceed and D6 the result. Nightshroud reads along the lines of any attack that targets a model loses charging bonus/asf.



The problem came in when I wanted to pick up his vamp lord and he argued that his graveguard and any models in base would be able to get their attacks in before i continued with my attack. My argument was that the attack had already happened before I targeted and that it would not stop the attack.



So what happens:

A) I proceed to finish my attack after the lord gets 1 attack to defend against it

B) His models in base get to attack and then the lord gets 1 attack to defend against it

C) other - explain

Can not find any real clear ruling on this.

Penitent Engine
20-02-2010, 03:13
I would go with a (c), as Nightshroud states that: Enemy models wishing to attack the wearer lose all charging bonuses, lose the Always Strikes First rule...and have their Initiative reduced to 1


So:
(1) Giant rolls for attacks and gets the Pick Up And... result. Declares the Vampire as the target.
(2) Vampire gets his full compliment of attacks against the Giant, as do his Grave Guard as they charged, as the Giant is now Initiative 1.
(3) Vampire gets his singular attack to fend off the Giant, THEN resolve the results of the attack.


My 2c :)

Milgram
20-02-2010, 06:49
I would go with a).

the moment nightshroud would kick in is the moment you roll on the table. so as long as you do not roll on the table for the vampire directly (e.g. because you are in contact with him as the sole target for the small targets table).

It's kind of the same as a chariot hitting a unit of 3 models + the nightshroud vampire.

Festus
20-02-2010, 11:17
Hi

The fault is on your side:
The first thing the Giant has to do is to choose and declare a target for his special attack in the normal way (see Giant's rules).
So if you declared your Giant's attack against the Vampire, the Nightshroud kicks in and your Giant is I1.
If you declared your attack against any other model in the unit, the NS will not be activated.

As said.
You made the first mistake in not declaring the target of your attack.

So the solution is C), with two possibilities depending on who the Giant chooses to attack in the first place.

Greetings
Festus

kyuzo
20-02-2010, 14:01
The fault is on your side:
The first thing the Giant has to do is to choose and declare a target for his special attack in the normal way (see Giant's rules).
So if you declared your Giant's attack against the Vampire, the Nightshroud kicks in and your Giant is I1.
If you declared your attack against any other model in the unit, the NS will not be activated.

As said.
You made the first mistake in not declaring the target of your attack.

So the solution is C), with two possibilities depending on who the Giant chooses to attack in the first place.

Greetings
Festus

So what you are saying is that I have to declare a target before rolling even with the results being as varied as 2d6 str 6, to picking 1 model, to not even attacking.

What if I argue that I can target the graveguard unit, and then when I roll "pick up and..." I decide to swoop down and pick up the lord that is in base contact with my giant as per the reading of the rule. I mean the lord is part of the graveguard unit :/

Milgram
20-02-2010, 14:32
yes, you have to choose first. you have to choose something in base contact to determine whether you roll on the big things table or on the small things table.

if you roll on the small things table and you get 'pick up', then you are free to pick up anything in base contact or in base contact to something in basecontact with the giant. of course this leads to the discussion on whether you can pick up a hydra or not, but that discussion was held in another thread. (conclusion of that one: it is RAW but you don't do it because it is obviously not RAI)

if you choose the vampire to roll on the table, then nightshorud proccs, if you choose a grave guard, then it does not. therefore you will never choose any VC character with light armour as main target... because you can still choose to pick him up afterwards.

Bodysnatcher
20-02-2010, 18:54
I'd argue that the attack has already started when the Nightshroud kicks in, so it won't work.
But, until there's an official ruling, best to dice off for it using your A and B options above.

The Red Scourge
20-02-2010, 19:08
I agree with Bodysnatcher. The attack has already started, the VC player will just have to deal with the fact that his toys aren't foolproof :)

The_Bureaucrat
20-02-2010, 19:58
Should have selected the target before you rolled.

If the vampire was on a zombie dragon you would have had to do it as explicitly stated in the rules, why should it be any different if he is in a unit? O&G giant ( i don't have WOC book here atm) states to "select their victims as normal".

Techpriest
20-02-2010, 20:19
As it is in any combat involving more then one target, like a charatcer or second unit in base contact. You have to designate a target before attacks are made. So you would have to target the vampire, then the attack happens. So his abilities would kick in once the attack begins on the Vampire. As far as I understand it.

Festus
20-02-2010, 20:41
So what you are saying is that I have to declare a target before rolling even with the results being as varied as 2d6 str 6, to picking 1 model, to not even attacking.

What if I argue that I can target the graveguard unit, and then when I roll "pick up and..." I decide to swoop down and pick up the lord that is in base contact with my giant as per the reading of the rule. I mean the lord is part of the graveguard unit :/
Just read the Giant's rules...
First you will have to choose a target for your attack as normal - a model, not a unit!

You may argue all you want... it doesn't change the rules as they are written,

Greetings
Festus

Bodysnatcher
21-02-2010, 18:43
It doesn't say pick a target in the warriors of chaos book, it says roll on the table appropriate to the victim you are fighting. As the attack hits the unit, not the model 5 out of 6 times....

Milgram
21-02-2010, 19:20
'the victim you are fighting' is either the unit or the vampire. you have to choose one.

Bodysnatcher
21-02-2010, 20:05
Once you have rolled the dice.

Festus
21-02-2010, 20:16
Nope, you will have tochoose a specific model before you chose the table and before you roll the dice..

Bodysnatcher
21-02-2010, 20:25
But then you roll a 4+ which is distributed like shooting, so can't target.
Hence why this is a proper rules conundrum and not a RTFM response :p

BramGaunt
21-02-2010, 20:40
Nightshroud's and the giants wording are pretty clear, and I totally agree with Festus: The giant has to declare a target before rolling a D6 to determine what he actually does. If he chooses to attemt to attack the VC, the VC would strike first, as would all of the Graveguard, as the Giant comes under the effect of the nightshroud. If he chooses to attack the guard, he strikes first, and may try to grab the Vcount. Though my counts use Lances most of the time it won't do the VC any good. Which makes my mind come up with another problem...

Bodysnatcher
21-02-2010, 20:51
Giants don't attack single models until after they've rolled. If you do roll pick up and.. the wording starts 'the giant stoops down and selects a model' No target is selected until the dice have been rolled.

Tae
21-02-2010, 21:06
I believe the Giant does have to select his target, initially, in the usual fashion. As the (WoC) Giant entry reads: "though they select their victims as normal". Thus implying they still have to chose what to attack.

It's just that after they've done this they then roll and, depending what they roll, their target may change.

So if the Giant player is smart, he'll target "the unit" and then hope he rolls a 3, so that he can, acorrding to the "pick up and..." attack "select a model" (i.e. the Vampire). As his attack is now already commenced when the Vampire is selected it still goes ahead in ASF order (as it were).

If the Giant were to select the Vampire initially, then roll his attack the Nighshroud would kick in. And, for completeness, if the Vampire was selected and then swing with club was rolled the Giants target would then change similar to the above description of rolling pick up and...

Bodysnatcher
21-02-2010, 21:56
The same effect with a different reasoning path.

Interesting.....

Ridarsin
22-02-2010, 17:16
I believe the Giant does have to select his target, initially, in the usual fashion. As the (WoC) Giant entry reads: "though they select their victims as normal". Thus implying they still have to chose what to attack.

It's just that after they've done this they then roll and, depending what they roll, their target may change.

So if the Giant player is smart, he'll target "the unit" and then hope he rolls a 3, so that he can, acorrding to the "pick up and..." attack "select a model" (i.e. the Vampire). As his attack is now already commenced when the Vampire is selected it still goes ahead in ASF order (as it were).

If the Giant were to select the Vampire initially, then roll his attack the Nighshroud would kick in. And, for completeness, if the Vampire was selected and then swing with club was rolled the Giants target would then change similar to the above description of rolling pick up and...

The only problem I see with this is that "Enemy models wishing to attack the wearer lose all charging bonus, lose the Always Strikes First rule (if they have it) and have their Initiative reduced to 1. (page 85)" The Giant first selects who he's fighting and then rolls on his chart. He can then select targets as normal, i.e. declairing an attack of "pick up and..." against the Vampire. The Nightshroud then activates as the bearer is being targeted for an attack.


You do bring up a good point with selecting targets, since Swing with Club states that it's distributed as a shooting attack and therefore cannot select charactors if thier are more than 5 models.

Tae
22-02-2010, 19:36
The only problem I see with this is that "Enemy models wishing to attack the wearer lose all charging bonus, lose the Always Strikes First rule (if they have it) and have their Initiative reduced to 1. (page 85)" The Giant first selects who he's fighting and then rolls on his chart. He can then select targets as normal, i.e. declairing an attack of "pick up and..." against the Vampire. The Nightshroud then activates as the bearer is being targeted for an attack.


You do bring up a good point with selecting targets, since Swing with Club states that it's distributed as a shooting attack and therefore cannot select charactors if thier are more than 5 models.

True, but the Giant has already begun his attacks (since he rolled the dice to see what type of attack he does), so I can't really see that it should be inerupted once it's begun.

If he (was dumb enough) to select the Vampire initially before rolling his attack type, then Nightshroud would kick in and stop him rolling, however once he's already rolled I don't think Nightshroud can have an effect as the attack has already begun.

The_Bureaucrat
22-02-2010, 20:13
True, but the Giant has already begun his attacks (since he rolled the dice to see what type of attack he does), so I can't really see that it should be inerupted once it's begun.

I don't believe there is a rule stating that attacks can'/shouldn'tt be interrupted.

RAW say giant selects a model/unit to attack, giant rolls and gets "pick up and..." giant selects vampire, vampire's abilities kick in. Vampire and grave guard attack, vampire strikes back from the pick up. Giant picks up if wound is failed.

Milgram
22-02-2010, 20:27
like chariot hits a unit with 4 r'n'f models and the vampire, and as soon as the randomised hits hit the vampire, nightshroud kicks in and all the impact hits are negated? I don't think so.

The_Bureaucrat
22-02-2010, 20:35
No as impact hits aren't attacks. Nightshroud only effects "enemy models wishing to attack the wearer".

Ridarsin
23-02-2010, 00:51
True, but the Giant has already begun his attacks (since he rolled the dice to see what type of attack he does), so I can't really see that it should be inerupted once it's begun.

If he (was dumb enough) to select the Vampire initially before rolling his attack type, then Nightshroud would kick in and stop him rolling, however once he's already rolled I don't think Nightshroud can have an effect as the attack has already begun.

Just because the Giant select which chart he uses doen't mean that the attack has begun. Like when fighting HE infantry after the player divies up the amount of attacks, and whomever selects the Nightshroud bearer goes last.

Going by the logic that he can bypass the Nightshroud by selecting the GraveGuard first would mean that he can "pick up and..." a Dragon or other large creature in the same fashion. I don't think that a Giant can stuff a Dragon into his bag/shirt, eat whole, or squash... :)

Milgram
23-02-2010, 05:08
No as impact hits aren't attacks. Nightshroud only effects "enemy models wishing to attack the wearer".

if you hit a single vampire with the armour, no impact hits are dealt, because you wish to attack the wearer...

also the giant doesn't wish to attack the vampire, he simply wishes to pick him up.

@ridarsin: yes he can, though no one will ever play it like this.

Dutch_Digger
23-02-2010, 08:24
i would state the rule is incomplete, which is quite common for the book in question.

only two ways that keep things simple and playable:

1: Either you agree that the giant can stuff hydras in its bag, (by switching targets after the roll)
2: or you agree that you declare target before rolling.
(any shooting results will be distributed as normal shooting if it hits amodel in a unit)

in second option you ignore the later rule that makes you pick a target again, but it would be more in line with the intent of the actual Giant rules.

Olyphant
23-02-2010, 08:52
I would state you declare your target before rolling (in the event of a pickup and... result) especially since there are 2 different charts for large targets and small targets.

Here's another interesting quandry, you pickup and stuff down you pants a rather boney graveguard champion. The vampire lord casts IoN on his GG and the first model resurrected must be the champion... what happens if the giant then dies and the 1st champion is released from his pants.

You can't have a unit with 2 champions and I believe the giant rules do say the champ is effectively dead until the giant is killed (and aslong as the GG is alive)

Grey Mage
23-02-2010, 09:07
if you hit a single vampire with the armour, no impact hits are dealt, because you wish to attack the wearer...

also the giant doesn't wish to attack the vampire, he simply wishes to pick him up.

@ridarsin: yes he can, though no one will ever play it like this.

Actually, thats incorrect- impact hits dont use "ASF" Initiative values, or any such nonsense... they just happen, and they happen to happen before anything else happens in a combat other than charge reactions and moving the attackers.

Even more the the point, chariot hits are distributed as per shooting, so there is no choice in who to attack... its entirely random IF its possible to occur at all.

And olyphant- theres no rule I can find stating theres a limit of one champion per unit. In fact, look at dwarven slayers the whole unit can be upgraded to "champions".

Memnos
23-02-2010, 09:41
There are several possible readings of the Giants special rule in terms of RAW. As per the O&G giant, here is what it says before you roll:


Giants do not attack in the same way as other creatures, though they select their victims as normal. They are far too large and fractious to take orders, and much too scatterbrained to have any sort of coherent plan. To determine what happens, each close combat phase roll a D6 on one of the following tables when it is the Giant's turn to fight. Which table you use depends on the size of the Giant's victime. When fighting characters riding monsters, decide whether to attack the rider or mount, as normal and use the appropriate table for the size of the target.


But wait! There's more. Here's the 'Pick up and' wording:


Pick up and... The Giant stoops down and selects a model (Giant's player's choice) that is either in base contact or touching a model in base contact(Giants have long reach). The target may make a single attack to try to fend off the Giant's clumsy hand. If this attack hits and wounds the Giant, the Giant's attack fails, otherwise the Giant grabs the model and the player rolls a d6 to see what happens next.

(All quotes are copyrighted Games Workshop).

This is an interesting question. If you interpret it as:

"He has to pick up a model from his declared target", then that would mean he couldn't choose the Vampire, if you're saying that the Vampire doesn't count as part of the unit for this purpose and he declared the unit as the target - He would have to choose the champion or rank and file and be safe from the magic item or declare the Vampire and suffer from the rank and file. However, if the Vampire doesn't count as part of the unit for these attacks, then if he declared the Vampire and then rolled 'Jump up and down', then you couldn't turn around and say the 2d6 S6 attacks affect the rest of the unit. In this case, the Vampire is pasted and everyone around them watch.

I would be okay with this decision before I rolled. I would accept whatever the opponent said before I rolled. Alternately, he could just simply say his magic item doesn't work against the Giant's special attacks, which would be very simple. Considering the Vampire would most likely be rolling a 3 to hit(Possibly rerolling) and a 2 to wound, I wouldn't be too concerned and would probably ignore my item.


1)

Milgram
23-02-2010, 12:53
Actually, thats incorrect- impact hits dont use "ASF" Initiative values, or any such nonsense... they just happen, and they happen to happen before anything else happens in a combat other than charge reactions and moving the attackers.

and yet they are an attack bonus and are denied if the chariot chooses to attack the vampire. and if you charge an unit of 7 ghouls and a NS-vampire and eradicate all ghouls with impact hits and would then choose to attack the NS-vampire, you loose the impact hits and the VC player puts back up his seven ghouls? you cannot decide not to attack. and as the ghouls are back up, can you decide to strike the ghouls again and regain impact hits? hopefully only killing 6 this time?

and if you fight against an unit of 20 grave guards with a NS-vampire, will you automatically get I1 and lose the first strike because you have to declare the pick up targets before rolling what you actually do - and as you could potentially get 'pick another' 20 times after the original 'pick up', you will have to choose the vampire?


as for the memnos quotes: the giant chooses his victims as normal. so he has to choose someone in direct contact as a victim. yet he is able to pick up someone in the second rank. so he does infact choose something in direct contact to determine the table he is rolling on - this is what he 'likes to attack'. and it does not have to be the same target as when he picks something up.


look, it's not like anyone could not know that your vampire has the NS armour. it is the only light armour available FFS! it's like a skink on a stegadon with a lance. there is no guessing what he might have. you simply have to know it. and the second chance you have to realize, that the vampire has the NS-armour is when your opponent asks you, whether you would like to attack the vampire or the unit with your giant.

oh, and how do you get to wound the giant on a 2+? either you charged him anyway and we talk about a slaanesh giant or you wear a two handed weapon, in which case you strike last anyways and only the troops would get to strike before the giant.

The_Bureaucrat
23-02-2010, 13:01
" he declared the Vampire and then rolled 'Jump up and down', then you couldn't turn around and say the 2d6 S6 attacks affect the rest of the unit. In this case, the Vampire is pasted and everyone around them watch
1)
You could because they would be distributed as shooting attacks.


There is basically three interpretations of this "pick up and..." rule
He declares his target as normal.
A) if he rolls "pick up and" he can only pick up part of his target (i.e a gravegaurd champion)

B) he can target one unit or one character but if he rolls "pick up and" he can choose another provided that its a legal target.

C) He can pick up anything in base contact (i.e hydra dragon)

With A) the shroud works. Nobody should ever play C) as it is terrible ruleslawyering and I am still at a loss at why nightshroud doesn't work for B)

Just because you rolled a dice for the result of how you are going to attack doesn't change how the magic item works. If you want to house rule it that nightshroud never works thats fine but those aren't the rules.

Memnos
23-02-2010, 16:00
Just because you rolled a dice for the result of how you are going to attack doesn't change how the magic item works. If you want to house rule it that nightshroud never works thats fine but those aren't the rules.

But he's already declared his target and, after he rolls, he gets to choose someone specific.

Here's another example of where that particular magic item falls apart:

1) Ogre Tyrant with the Thundermace strikes a single time at the unit champion. If he misses, All is well, since he didn't target or affect the Vampire. If he hits, however...

2) If the Ogre hits, his attack alsohits the Vampire. What did he wish to attack? Of course he wanted to hit the Vampire as well as everyone else. RAW: Because he wished to attack the Vampire as well as everyone else, he's affected by Nightshroud.

So the Ogre Tyrant, if he misses, strikes in the normal area. If he hits, he automatically strikes last. By RAW, whether he's affected by that magic item is determined by whether or not he hits.

The_Bureaucrat
23-02-2010, 17:37
I agree nightshroud could have been written a lot better (also the giants rules could be written a lot better). Thundermace I would argue isn't affected by nightshroud (unless you specifcally if you attack the vampire) as it affects the wearer but it is not specifically attacking the vampire.

Confusion stems from "wishing to attack the wearer".
-If you interpret wishing to include only selection of attacks to affect the (vampire necromancer), it becomes clear what triggers nightshroud (attacks) and what doesn't (base to base contact hits, shots distributed, impact hits distributed, effects unrelated to selection)

-If you interpret "wishing" to include having possibly affecting or having a strong desire to affect. Than you will have many situations that don't make sense (how about an ETOG charging a vampire and using burning alignment to hit the vampire and than therefore not getting charging bonus).

shakedown47
23-02-2010, 18:10
This is how we have played this very situation, which admittedly is a bit of a compromise on both parts, but keeps the game flowing without too much rules-lawyering or overcomplication.

My giant is in combat with graveguard with embedded vampire wearing Nightshroud. I choose the target for my attacks, the graveguard. I roll on the small target chart and apply the effects accordingly; if a "pick up and..." result is rolled and I choose the vampire, his nightshroud does not kick in because the target of the attack is the graveguard; the attack itself, IMO, is the result of the initial D6 roll.

If the result of that D6 roll is "pick up and..." then I may select the nightshroud-wearing vampire so long as it is in base contact; our consensus here is that he is being selected as the target of an EFFECT of the attack, and not by the attack itself.

The alternative, which no player would choose, is to target the vampire initially. At that point, before rolling on the table, Nightshroud negates any benefit the giant has and both the vampire and any graveguard in contact make their full number of attacks against the giant. If the giant is still standing, his attack then proceeds and he rolls on the chart. If Jump up and Down or Swing With Club are rolled, although the vampire was the initial target of the attack his presence in a group of at least 5 rank and file models prevents him from being harmed by attacks distributed as shooting.

Some vamp players may not like it, but the key to our particular ruling is that the giant is selecting a target for his initial D6 roll, and anything to be further affected by a Pick Up And... resultis being targeted by an "effect," not an attack.

Plaguelord Deathspasm
23-02-2010, 18:50
I'm reading the giant rules as, before anything else happens you decide which table to roll, this means no target has been chosen. If you roll on the large creature chart, your attacks will only affect large creatures, if you roll on the small people table, same thing applies. Because of the rule that if you can't choose not to attack in close combat, if there are no viable targets for one table you must roll on the other.

Once the table has been chosen, you roll to see what you do. Then if it is "pick up and..." you must then declare a target, which would activate the nightshroud, if the vampire is targeted. If you roll something like jump up and down, nightshroud isn't activated because the distribution of hits won't get to him as long as he's in a unit. However if the unit is small enough at the point of attack that the vampire is now a viable target, it would activate, because now the giant is capable of hitting him.

Or you could agree with you opponent on assuming that "wishing to attack" should be substituted with "targets with an attack" which to me makes more sense.

The_Bureaucrat
24-02-2010, 01:28
@shakedown I thought about the fact that it may be the effect of the attack but as the effect only the vampire and not anyone else there must have been a targeting step and the other player must wish to attack the vampire (in any sense of the definition).

@plaguelorddeathspawn: a good solution for the giant rules (I like it a lot), but I would disagree with shots being distributed couting as "wishing to attack the wearer" as they are not specifically targeting him (It's random!) or if you interpret wish as in a desire, it is entirely possible the oppenent may not want to allocate attacks to the vampire.