PDA

View Full Version : Vampire 2250 army, what should i fear?



warp powered madman
20-02-2010, 22:11
Characters
Vamp Lord
+1 Magic Level
Black Arts
Forbidden Lore
Lord of the Dead
Book of Akhan
Walach’s Bloody Hauberk
435 points

Vamp Hero (Battle Standard)
Drackenhoff Banner
Dark Acolyte
Lord of the Dead
295 Points

Vamp Hero
Dark Acolyte
Lord of the Dead
Staff of Damnation
Talisman of the Lycni
195 Points

Vamp Hero
Dark Acolyte
Lord of the Dead
Helm of Commandment
Black Periapt
190 Points

Units

2x Corpse Carts with lode stones
200 Points

10x Skeletons
Command
100 points

10x Skeletons
Command
100 points

10x Skeletons
Command
100 points

27 Grave Guard
Great Weapons
Command
Banner of the Barrows
426 Points

Black Coach
200 Points

TOTAL POINTS 2241

Played this army once and proceeded to wipe the floor with a magic and monk heavy skaven army. The simple idea is this 13/14 power dice to raise more skeletons or bring back wights or allow extra movement and then the corpse carts kick in causing everything to strike first for this turn and the next if they are charged, if that fails i have still have several other bound items for movement and attacks. In theory the whole army should always strike first and every other turn it strikes first with re-rolls. Once the unit flees from me I also have a vamp chasing them at 3D6
The large unit of wights should hit on 2+ with the helm of commandment and the banner of the barrows and wound most things on a 2+ with killing blow and to follow 3 rather annoyed vamps with a BSB. If anything is left standing to hit back the unit has ws6 and regen.
The black coach should stick to the centre of the army and soak up power dice of which there are plenty and cause mayhem once powered up.
2 corpse carts help with the defence as they will -2 to casting scores.

So simple question apart from the 13th spell and infernal gateway should i worry about?

MasterSparks
20-02-2010, 23:32
I think you should keep an eye open for opponents with enough firepower to destroy those small Skeleton units of yours. You've also got a rather large amount of Grave Guard in that single unit, which is where I assume the Drakenhof Banner is going? I'd consider dropping the unit down to ~20 and invest the saved points in some Dire Wolves or Fell Bats to assault enemy war machines. :)

warp powered madman
21-02-2010, 00:17
Small units to begin yes but with 13 power dice and raising on a 3+ they do leap up very quickly in size. The formation of the army is in the grave guard and all the vamps apart from the one with the helm in centre front with a unit of skellies each side, a corpse cart behind each one. behind the guard is the 3rd unit of skellies with the helm vamp to put her ws to them and the coach dead in the middle of the army to soak up dice. War machines are vunrable to winds of undeath and gaze of nagash.
I just thought that the daemon banner which makes casting more difficult could be a pain for my army

VC Billy
21-02-2010, 04:30
You should be very afraid of a Slaan with becalming in a TG bunker. You could hold them to a draw, but there is no way you could win.

Also, your BSB has very little defense. Any decent player will be able to charge into your GG and find a way to kill him. And since you want people in with GG there isn't much you can do about it.

I personally think that invo spam is overrated, you're much better off going with the heavy hitters in the army (bloodknights, vampires, and wraiths) and focusing on raise dead as a way to win games. It's much more fun that way as well.

VC Billy
21-02-2010, 04:32
Actually, I'm not sure you could hold them to a draw. Once he gets in to your soft vamps your magic phase will fall apart.

Eisenhorn
21-02-2010, 04:54
13 power dice is all well and good on paper. But go up against something which have several dispel dices and you are going to have problems with raising enough troops. what happens is that they start to dispell with 1 dice since you are casting with 1.

So you cast IoN 4 out of 6 times average then he can dispel say half of them again on average. and then you roll 3,5 skellies for the once which are successful +1 if the lode stone is close by. So with casting IoN with all of your dice you should get on average (if he dispels with all his dice (6)) ca 26 skellis. Which means you are not casting any other offensive spells at all that turn. And that means no zombies, no dance, no gaze...

I used to play a very similar army and i had to bump my unites to 15 and down grade my Hero Vamps to Zombie raisers instead. And i only run a 14 strong Grave guard unite with swords and shield for my lord.

Ethos
21-02-2010, 06:20
Hm...

If your Vampires start to go down, so will everything else. Either that, or your magic phase being nerf'd.

Perhaps a combination of magic attacks against your units (to bring down their size) and a bit of dispelling of your IoN, and my guess is that you'll be swimming up stream pretty quickly. Just to have some flanking units or cavalry to help with combat...


... everything comes down to combat. Shooting reduces the units in size and strength before getting into combat. Magic does the same. It's all about the combat. If you can get into combat - and manage well enough - you should be alright. But, if help is needed (usually in the form of a flanking force or cavalry) and you're just big blocks of guys stuck in the middle, it might get difficult to stay un-dead long enough to win the game.

(otherwise, you'll just end up dead-dead).

warp powered madman
21-02-2010, 11:33
13 power dice is all well and good on paper. But go up against something which have several dispel dices and you are going to have problems with raising enough troops. what happens is that they start to dispell with 1 dice since you are casting with 1.

So you cast IoN 4 out of 6 times average then he can dispel say half of them again on average. and then you roll 3,5 skellies for the once which are successful +1 if the lode stone is close by. So with casting IoN with all of your dice you should get on average (if he dispels with all his dice (6)) ca 26 skellis. Which means you are not casting any other offensive spells at all that turn. And that means no zombies, no dance, no gaze...

I used to play a very similar army and i had to bump my unites to 15 and down grade my Hero Vamps to Zombie raisers instead. And i only run a 14 strong Grave guard unite with swords and shield for my lord.


What makes you think im only casting IoN 6 times.... law of adverages means he will need to use 2 dice to dispell my 1 dice in most cases, we have all been there when we think we can beat a 4 and roll a 2 or 3, and even if they do dispell it then i can cast it 13 times and still have 4 bound spells which cause ASF, movement and attacks.

Lode stones are the negative casting value upgrades and balefire is the plus to raising zombies im pretty sure, dont quote me on that im at work with no book.

I have been playing with the idea of dropping one of the carts and using the points to increase the unit sizes of skeletons...but im not too sure as the army works best at forcing opponents to choose between dispelling my raising spells, offensive spells etc or the bound spells i also have for the ASF, attacks and movement.

warp powered madman
21-02-2010, 11:47
Hm...

If your Vampires start to go down, so will everything else. Either that, or your magic phase being nerf'd.

Perhaps a combination of magic attacks against your units (to bring down their size) and a bit of dispelling of your IoN, and my guess is that you'll be swimming up stream pretty quickly. Just to have some flanking units or cavalry to help with combat...


... everything comes down to combat. Shooting reduces the units in size and strength before getting into combat. Magic does the same. It's all about the combat. If you can get into combat - and manage well enough - you should be alright. But, if help is needed (usually in the form of a flanking force or cavalry) and you're just big blocks of guys stuck in the middle, it might get difficult to stay un-dead long enough to win the game.

(otherwise, you'll just end up dead-dead).

yea losing the vamps does put me up a certian creek with out a certian paddle but 3 vamps and 4 wights ASF and ASF with re-rolls half the time are very heavy hitting as they hit in a 2+ and wound on a 2+ killing blow.
Challanges are the way to go to help protect him and if they challange then ill just move him to the back on the unit, hes no blood dragon lol
Agreed though fire and tzeench magic will be my bane! but with enough raises i should be ok and dwarf cannons etc with burning runes will cut swathes out of the units but i feel comfortable with my raising to get most the units back to full strength or more with the skeletons.

warp powered madman
21-02-2010, 11:55
You should be very afraid of a Slaan with becalming in a TG bunker. You could hold them to a draw, but there is no way you could win.

Also, your BSB has very little defense. Any decent player will be able to charge into your GG and find a way to kill him. And since you want people in with GG there isn't much you can do about it.

I personally think that invo spam is overrated, you're much better off going with the heavy hitters in the army (bloodknights, vampires, and wraiths) and focusing on raise dead as a way to win games. It's much more fun that way as well.

Slan and temple guard provide one of the main probs for me in which its a nearly unmovable unit (curse you stubborn cold blooded lizards with BSB!!) but through enough attacks, st5/6 and magic to-boot i should be able to whittle them down and dont forget i number 30 at the start of the game if i get most through, say about 20 i should still be able to outnumber him and double 1 still applys to them.
If he takes fire magic ill take huge losses and if they do become stupid im done for but even 3 vamps could bring a descent number of models back on the table per turn.

Eisenhorn
21-02-2010, 14:17
What makes you think im only casting IoN 6 times.... law of adverages means he will need to use 2 dice to dispell my 1 dice in most cases, we have all been there when we think we can beat a 4 and roll a 2 or 3, and even if they do dispell it then i can cast it 13 times and still have 4 bound spells which cause ASF, movement and attacks.

Lode stones are the negative casting value upgrades and balefire is the plus to raising zombies im pretty sure, dont quote me on that im at work with no book.

I have been playing with the idea of dropping one of the carts and using the points to increase the unit sizes of skeletons...but im not too sure as the army works best at forcing opponents to choose between dispelling my raising spells, offensive spells etc or the bound spells i also have for the ASF, attacks and movement.


Well the lode stones and balefire effects are the other way around so lode stones gives you +1 to raises and balefire is the 24 inch -1 to cast.

I'm only talking from experience. I said that i used to play a very similar army to yours. My gaming group started to use the 1 dice dispel after a month and it effectively halved the amount of models which i was able to raise.This stopped my spamming IoN list, i had 14 power dice and the black periapt so 15 in many games.

I have dual carts as well and they are great for the ASF, i don't bother with the upgrade tho. I find that my opponents largely ignore them until turn 3 when they can provide ASF for my troops. So that means that i cant use their bound spell to trick dispel dice out of my opponent. untill turn 3

I'm not saying that your list cant work. However it does not take long for people to figure out how to combat the 1 dice spam. By taking unites of 15 you are not that reliant on that tactic and can use your power dice on more offensive spells

warp powered madman
21-02-2010, 14:34
Well the lode stones and balefire effects are the other way around so lode stones gives you +1 to raises and balefire is the 24 inch -1 to cast.

I'm only talking from experience. I said that i used to play a very similar army to yours. My gaming group started to use the 1 dice dispel after a month and it effectively halved the amount of models which i was able to raise. And stopped my spam IoN list and i had 14 power dice and the black periapt so 15 in many games.

I have dual carts as well and they are great for the ASF i don't bother with the upgrade tho. I find that my opponents largely ignore them until turn 3 when they can provide ASF for my troops. So that means that i cant you their bound spell to trick dispel dice out of my opponent

I'm not saying that your list cant work. But it does not take long for people to figure out how to combat the 1 dice spam. By taking unites of 15 you are not that reliant on that tactic and can use your power dice on more offensive spells

Excellent, cheers

Eisenhorn
21-02-2010, 16:49
No problem man. I would also recommend taking some armor on your vampire heros as they are extremely fragile at the moment. there are several ways of sniping characters in unites and Hero vamps are only t4 2w.

There are 2 ways of doing this. you could just bye some magic armor for them, but that cuts into what items they can have. And most of the magic armors arn't that great on their own.

How ever if you take Avatar of death, your vamps will get a 3+ save in combat with sword and shield. But you lose Lord of the Dead.

So do you really need all of those Heroes to spam IoN or could you make them cheaper and better protected and cast IoN on 4+ instead. Although you also lose the ability to raise them higher than the starting number.

Sorry for repeating this. If the skellies are 15 or 14 strong then yes you don't need the extra IoN from the heros.

warp powered madman
21-02-2010, 17:02
No problem man. I would also recommend taking some armor on your vampire heros as they are extremely fragile at the moment. there are several ways of sniping characters in unites and Hero vamps are only t4 2w.

There are 2 ways of doing this. you could just bye some magic armor for them, but that cuts into what items they can have. And most of the magic armors arn't that great on their own.

How ever if you take Avatar of death, your vamps will get a 3+ save in combat with sword and shield. But you lose Lord of the Dead.

So do you really need all of those Heroes to spam IoN or could you make them cheaper and better protected and cast IoN on 4+ instead. Although you also lose the ability to raise them higher than the starting number.

Sorry for repeating this. If the skellies are 15 or 14 strong then yes you don't need the extra IoN from the heros.

they do have regen but cant count on that due to flame attacks but yea need to keep lord of dead to raise the units beyond their starting, i end games with 20+ skeletons normally, when facing a shooty/magic army i could always swap teh banner of the barrows for the 4+ ward save giving them a mighty two 4+ ward saves from most things ranged.
I could always have zombies 'bleugh' for the numbers instead of skellies but i find if they get into combat they just get munched and take lord of the dead off for avatar of death, ill try that out it would mean 150 zombies to 30 skeletons (again at work but i think zombies are 2 points per model..?) lol as much as i hate zombies that is quite a few of them....
yes apart from Walach’s Bloody Hauberk the undead armour are unreliable but to be fair if ur vamps are been hit back enough to take them out then i wouldnt be picking my targets well enough.

Eisenhorn
21-02-2010, 17:31
For an army with a death star unit like your grave guard then zombies might be better. You could use skeletons as stand ins if you don't like the models.

A Zombie is half the cost of a basic Skeleton i think and they are 20+ if you take them as troops.

Well some times you can't choose your targets, and other times your ASF will be dispelled. Probably scrolled if the battle is on the knife edge, i know i would if i played against your army.

Kriegersen
21-02-2010, 21:35
this has already been mentioned, but I would watch out for shooty armies such as dwarfs and empire.
my friends 2250 has 8 units of handgunners, each champion has hockland longrifles, 4 master engineers with hockland longrifles, and 2 steamtanks! that is 72 shots from handguns, 2 great cannons, and 12 longrifles, it is a proper anti charicter, anti infantry army, I have never beat it using ogres, vamps, empire, skaven, its realy harsh :(

Slayerthane
21-02-2010, 22:51
I would say a gunline with good magic defense. Those small units of skellies could easily disappear given a couple of good rounds of shooting. Keep in mind, you're never going to be able to keep all your bases covered.