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View Full Version : Should 40k psychic be more like WFB magic?



MOMUS
21-02-2010, 16:35
I really enjoy how the WFB magic system works, but i cant say the same for psychic powers. Im not saying a direct copy, maybe some kind of power system? psychic duel? Psychic powers have gone from game dominating (2nd ed) to then 'force augmenting' (3rd ed) and now seem to be 'creeping' back up the power ladder, the portrayal of psychics varies edition to edition, codex to codex. The thing i want in 40k is INTERACTION between psykers. With the current rules:
Two forces fight both contain psykers, each psyker blows apart the others army while they watch patiently for their turn. I think psykers should be able to challenge/negate/dispel or do SOMETHING! This could add a new level of tactics/strategy, psykers and the warp are a BIG part of the 40k fluff yet they always get overlooked for more bang bang sticks. Could they be subtle AND have interation?

Psychic hood is NOT interaction, can nobody mention this ugly piece of wargear.

PS: Anybody else remember dark millenium? That was awsome!

Hoodwink
21-02-2010, 16:40
While I agree, there are a good amount of builds that include NO psykers. In WFB, pretty much everyone has magic. Putting so much emphasis on psykers would break the game in terms that everyone would be all but required to bring psykers. Then you have armies that don't have any viable psykers...

WinglessVT2
21-02-2010, 16:41
Absolutely not.

Radium
21-02-2010, 16:59
Yes and no.

I would like for psychic powers to matter more (like in the 5th ed codices), but I really do not want 40k to devolve to the point where we NEED psykers just to keep enemy psykers at bay.

Rydmend
21-02-2010, 17:08
I think the new books do a pretty good job of including psychic abilities that actually matter. I wish they would get rid of psychic powers that simply remove models on T and I tests, it sucks when you lose 2-3 expensive models from a one shot power simply because they have I 1 or 2.....I prefer intersting buffs and debuffs, things like muderous hurricane and nightshroud make for interesting powers.

Tyranus
21-02-2010, 17:12
I see it going that way, but will it happen in the next edition I doubt it, maybe in the 7th edition. That should give plenty of time for every army to get viable psykers (new codices) so it would matter.

wazatdingder
21-02-2010, 17:15
It's called the 2nd edition psychic phase...It doubled the length of the game.
They changed it for good reasons.

carl
21-02-2010, 17:30
It's called the 2nd edition psychic phase...It doubled the length of the game.


It's called WHFB Magic Phase. It dosen't double the length of the game.


2nd ed is a really bad example, and despite what i just wrote, so is the WHFB magic system. Being both not reaklly in line with 40K in general and a seriously bad way of doing even magic to start with, (do not temp me to start a rant on this or WHFB's combat and LD systems, i could go on for FOREVER if you let me).

However for a veriaty of reasons i'd love to see a seperate psychic phase with all current counts as shooting powers moved over to a magic missile esque system. A lot of the current Psychic powers rules issues stem from the whole replaces shooting malarky, and of course there's a whole bunch of powers that count as shooting which are just garbage because of poor BS.

Cartographer
21-02-2010, 17:35
Personally, I'd rather the psychic powers be even more folded into the main phases than they are already and I'd like the psychic test to be replaced with somehing better; I dislike the idea of having to roll to see if you can roll to see if you get to do something...

WinglessVT2
21-02-2010, 17:36
It's called fantasy's magic phase.
If you don't have an effective one, you get destroyed, so you have no choice in the matter.

No.

Psychic powers are good the way they are now.
Most have a short range, and few utterly destroy armies.

the1stpip
21-02-2010, 18:07
No, as already stated, it was very similar in 2nd ed, and it changed the game.

The psychic phase became a game within a game. While it was fun, it was broken. Best keep psychic powers as they are now.

MOMUS
21-02-2010, 18:17
Prehaps WFB was a bad example. I dont remember saying a seperate phase, just more interaction between the psykers than the current rule set.

WinglessVT2
21-02-2010, 19:27
Don't go there.
It's been done, it dominated all other parts of your army-creation and the battle itself, it didn't work out, and it was removed when 3rd edition rolled out.

carl
21-02-2010, 19:27
Guys, do yourself a favour and go back to school and re-learn:

English luanguage 101; comprhending the english luangiage.


Where did i say copy the WHFB magic system. I specificlly said it was bad,. And for the reasons you mentuioned: it would force everyone to take psykers.

The current WHFB system is built on mechanics that encoutrage unreliability and extreme results. Thus you HAVE to take some magical defence in case even a minimially magiced enemy gets a few extreme reslts. Whilst the unreliabiluity forces you to take a LOT of insurance to be effective.

ALL I suggested was compreshing it down into a single phase so that there are no more rules querys about how things interact, less room for abuse and such like.

I also agree the current test system is a littile too symplistic, but psychic hoods and the like aside it's very RELIABILE, which is a good thing IMHO. I'd like a few extra rules for diversity, but there's extras. Mostl;y a seperate phase would just simplify rules and close of accidental mis wordings opening up so much abuse, (because the smaller range of allowable actions within the phase would cut down the abuse avalibile IMHO).

totgeboren
21-02-2010, 20:01
English luanguage 101; comprhending the english luangiage.


I found this hilarious! Two out of five words are spelled correctly. :D

But anyway, I think the current psychic system works well enough, though it makes all the shooty powers kinda meh. Its really boring to need to roll to see if you can shoot, and then just might as well miss anyway.

If shooting psychic powers auto-hit they would feel a bit better.

I think a system where psyches duels and such would be bad for the game, since then everyone that can take a psycher must take one.
I mean, most armies would have a commander and a psycher as their two HQs.

As it is now, we see a lot more variation in armies, since psychers are just another tool for the army.

WinglessVT2
21-02-2010, 20:03
Orks get psychic powers that 'hit' automatically.

Meleth
21-02-2010, 20:04
The last thing it needs is to be like warhammer fantasys magic phase, after playing Vampire counts in a warhammer campaign I don't want to see another magic phase in my life!

It's fine how it is, Psykers are optional and are useful but don't dominate your army.

MasterDecoy
21-02-2010, 20:05
I found this hilarious! Two out of five words are spelled correctly. :D

But anyway, I think the current psychic system works well enough, though it makes all the shooty powers kinda meh. Its really boring to need to roll to see if you can shoot, and then just might as well miss anyway.

If shooting psychic powers auto-hit they would feel a bit better.

I think a system where psyches duels and such would be bad for the game, since then everyone that can take a psycher must take one.
I mean, most armies would have a commander and a psycher as their two HQs.

As it is now, we see a lot more variation in armies, since psychers are just another tool for the army.

to be honost, Im so used to the bad grammer and spelling that I dont notice it anymore.

:O curse you internet.

J-rock
21-02-2010, 20:17
Guys, do yourself a favour and go back to school and re-learn:

English luanguage 101; comprhending the english luangiage.


Where did i say copy the WHFB magic system. I specificlly said it was bad,. And for the reasons you mentuioned: it would force everyone to take psykers.



So you put "Should 40k psychic be more like WFB magic?" in the title and started your post with "I really enjoy how the WFB magic system works" and now you're complaining because people think you want to have a system very similar WFB magic in 40K?

Maybe you should have re-read your post before whipping out the sarcasm.

carl
21-02-2010, 20:24
Lol. Sorry. I'm dyslexic and was fast typing so i didn't shove it through my word program. Hillarity ensues.

I just meant that i specificlly mentioned the WHFB magic phase example was bad allready, so why where people bringing it up in relation to my suggestion of a sepereate phase.

As i said i see a seperate phase as a great way to condense things down a cut out a LOT of abusive aspect. Psychic duels if they had rules should be kept simple and not too powerful, (current hood rules or similar would work just fine).

Psykers SHOULD NOT be nmandetory. But simplified less open to abuse basic rukles coupled with a wider range of more intresting powers, (because there's less room for creative interpratation for power players), would be a great idea IMHO.

carl
21-02-2010, 20:25
@ J-Rock, i'm not the OP so i didn't choose my post title. Also RE-READ MY FIRST POST. Here a quote with bolding.


It's called WHFB Magic Phase. It dosen't double the length of the game.


2nd ed is a really bad example, and despite what i just wrote, so is the WHFB magic system.

Like i said COMPREHENSHION, (or however you spell it;)).

MOMUS
21-02-2010, 20:43
yes, thanks for that carl...anyway what im suggesting is not a ramp up in power for psykers (already they are becoming more and more powerful in 5th) rather than some extra rules to make it more interesting when there are two opposing psykers on the board.
Like i said earlier current rules are : Two forces fight both contain psykers, each psyker blows apart the others army while they watch patiently for their turn.

carl
21-02-2010, 20:50
But if that became too powerful both sides having psykers would become mandetory, which i see as a BAD thing.

Noserenda
21-02-2010, 21:02
Strikes me as a bad idea, Psykers work just fine the way they are.

Especially Psychic hoods, which are great.

Cartographer
21-02-2010, 21:53
yes, thanks for that carl...anyway what im suggesting is not a ramp up in power for psykers (already they are becoming more and more powerful in 5th) rather than some extra rules to make it more interesting when there are two opposing psykers on the board.
Like i said earlier current rules are : Two forces fight both contain psykers, each psyker blows apart the others army while they watch patiently for their turn.

Why though?

What would it add to the game?

For your idea to actually be worth devoting game time to, then psychic powers would have to become (significantly) more powerful or have a (significantly) greater effect, which leads us down the WFB route with psykers being mandatory and every army then having to have access to the same anti-psychic wargear (40k scroll caddies, *shudder*) else it would be impossible to balance.

IMO the psychic powers should be wholely integrated into the current flow of the game, with the odd exception being resolved before the game begins, or providing a meta-game bonus but not outside of the current system, not yet another "special rule" for this army, not yet another break in the game's flow as you have your turn interrupted.

e2055261
21-02-2010, 22:03
It's fine the way it is. Just remember, as has already been said, that some armies have few or no psychic powers. I know where you're coming from - interaction between psykers - but this is the begininning of seperate phases and an over-dominance of psykers in general.

One of the strengths of 40k is that you can build competetive lists without spending many points on uber-characters. A greater emphasis on psykers will only encourage character heavy lists...

Bunnahabhain
21-02-2010, 22:18
Yes and no.


Yes- having a dedicated magic phase is a good idea, as it tides up alot of the actions, and some interactivity is good. Powers that just work, and unless you have psychic defences you're in trouble, are not good when many armies are lacking any psychic defences at all.

N0- We really don't need the arms race effect it could generate if done badly.

Overall, I come down leaning towards yes, but in the context of a whole new edition, incorporating it from the beginning.

Of course, if you have a whole new edition, it might go to unit activation, so rendering the whole concept of phases irrelevant, or some other similar sized upheaval.

Stumpy
21-02-2010, 22:44
Yes, I'd love to see psychic powers have some more interaction between players. However I don't see it happening. The codeci that are already around have their psychers and it would take way too long to sort out a new system after a new rules edition.
Psychic powers are freaking boring as hell in 40k... I take a leadership test and this happens. That's it, there's nothing interesting about it at all, no countermeasures, nothing. However, its not likely going to change. I would like to see something to shake up the psychic tests though: like if you fail your leadership test you roll on a minor miscast table, things like take a S3 hit, can't cast the power for a turn, you accidentally cast a different power that you know, that sort of thing.

Culven
21-02-2010, 23:42
While I don't think that Psychic powers should have as much impact as Magic does in Fantasy, I think that it needs to be a little better developed. My main issue with the current system is the limited ability to do anything about enemy Psykers when playing certain armies. Space Marines can take Psychic Hoods, Eldar have Runes of Something-or-Other, Tyranids have Shadow in the Warp, Orks have the counter to their own powers in the form of a random ability, and so on. Yet Tau have absolutely nothing to protect them, and I'm sure this is an issue for some other armies. If Psychic Powers are going to continue developing in usefulness, every army should have some chance against it.

The worst example I can think of is the ever popular Lash of Submission. The fact that it can be used against my Battlesuits and then they are hit with Winds of Chaos or Plasma Cannons, with no ability to do anything is rather irritating. Even if the Tau are not psychic and a Hood would be inappropriate, even something as simple as a Leadership check to see if they can overcome the influence would be nice. It is this lack of balance that I think will need to be addressed.

alextroy
22-02-2010, 00:15
Psychic powers more like WFB Magic? Hell no. I would rather see the reverse.

GrogDaTyrant
22-02-2010, 02:14
Strikes me as a bad idea, Psykers work just fine the way they are.

Especially Psychic hoods, which are great.

I disagree. I think Psykers are working just fine if youre Marines, Eldar, Nids, or Witchunters. If you're anyone else... then it makes no sense for your psyker to not have anything that offers a defense against opposing psykers. One of the primary reasons why I don't field Warpheads is because they do absolutely nothing to stem the barrage of psychic nonsense coming my way. I'm better off with a second KFF or a PK Warboss on a bike for something that resembles anti-tank capability.

elvinltl
22-02-2010, 05:00
No...

Warhammer Fantasy Magic Rules was designed to be Unpredictable, Erratic and Fickle.

In Warhammer 40k where we have Technological Advancement which promotes Efficiency and Reliability for our Guns, Gears and Vehicles, if Psychic was as fickle as WHFB Magic, Nobody will use it.

Fobster
22-02-2010, 05:32
Magic is one of the things ruining fantasy at the moment. 40k doesn't need it. Psychics should be rare in armies not mandatory.

senorcardgage
22-02-2010, 05:42
Although I think that psychic powers could use more development (similar to the current trend) I don't want it to be a near be-all-end-all like it is in Fantasy. That said, I'd really like to see every army have a chance at psychic defence.

I mean, come on, its just ridiculous having these psychic armies walk all over you with no option of psychic defense. Back in the good old days psychic powers were way less potent so it wasn't such a big deal, but nowadays I find myself in dire need of psychic defence that just isn't available.

MOMUS
22-02-2010, 05:52
Thanks for those who are replying to the OP and not the thread tag. So i want interaction between psykers but in a subtle way, why would i want extra rules if they didnt 'control' the battle? Snipers pin enemy troops, its a great rule which adds to the game without dominating (i dont see armies of ratlings). Interaction with psykers would be fun (one of the main reasons i play) and add an extra level of tactics IF you took a psyker, if you didnt there would be no negative.

'One of the strengths of 40k is that you can build competetive lists without spending many points on uber-characters. A greater emphasis on psykers will only encourage character heavy lists... '

i think 40k is already leaning toward hero hammer, HQ choices are being used as an excuse to gain special rules and maybe they are now being written with the special rules being their purpose. Tervigons, IG advisors, Hive tyrants with acient adversary, shrike AND vulkan or Pedro AND lysander, SW rune priests now you can take even more HQ than before! id rather see a sorcerer than dual lash -and not just because he can fit in a transport.

'In Warhammer 40k where we have Technological Advancement which promotes Efficiency and Reliability for our Guns, Gears and Vehicles, if Psychic was as fickle as WHFB Magic, Nobody will use it.'

which 40k do you play? only tau advance their tech, tech being fickle? plasma, warp travel, inter-planet/system communication, machine spirits, etc. No. By your logic EVERYBODY would use it, just like WFB.

Prehaps a USR for psykers, allowing them to attack an enemy psyker rather than use a power?

Griffindale
22-02-2010, 06:32
psykers do seem to be becoming more prevalent. I would like to see some sort of change or overhaul to the psyker system we use now. Leadership tests are kind of bland. Every single psyker is going to be ld 10 anyways so we just end up dicing off and thats kind of lame.

I really hope we don't end up HAVING to have psykers as I'm not that big a fan of them, especially in regards to librarians.

Riptacus
22-02-2010, 06:35
WHFB magic is out-of-control, so I don't think it's a good idea to use it as any sort of template or inspiration for changes to the 40K phases.

That said, as Psychic powers seem to be getting more and more powerful I wouldn't mind seeing something roughly equivalent to the automatic dispel dice you get in fantasy enter into 40K. Right now psychic defense is sort of an all-or-nothing proposition for most armies; it would be nice to have a basic form of defense against some of the stronger psychic abilities out there.

GrimZAG
22-02-2010, 07:48
I think fluff wise, the warp is very different to magic in WHFB. The power obtained from the warp seems to be unwieldy and ready to burn you at a moments notice without the refinement of attempting to dispel enemy psykers.

With that in mind, I would rather see a trend away from any sort of dispelling objects for psykers, because it seems to be specialised for particular armies and is just a leadership check on basically a cool gun.

However I would like to see protective psychic powers, such as "Cast Shield of Storm on any unit within 6 inches and they benefit from Feel no Pain for 1 turn".

that is all

Falkman
22-02-2010, 08:19
I think psychic powers overall works well in 40k, no point in making them like magic in Fantasy.
The only problem I have with psykers is that psychic defense is so different across armies, some armies have no defense at all against psykers while some neutralise them almost completely. I think every army should have access to at least some form of psychic defense, be it wargear, counter models or something else. It doesn't have to be similar defenses either, just something. Tyranid and Space marine psychic defense are quite different for example, but they both have something.

Jagged
22-02-2010, 08:21
My 40k experience is mainly with Orks. I find that Eldar psyk that seems to mainly take the form of buffs and debuffs to units I don't mind and maybe even enjoy. Other psyk that follows the same lines is also good. However the occasional psyk that seems to allow undefendable attacks or character targeting does not make for a good game.

Orks don't have Psykers. We have a highly unpredicatable HQ unit with no upgrades and a highly unpredicatable power that is labled a "psyker" but has none of the things that usually comes from being a psyker and certainly has no psykik defense. :(

I wouldn't mind fielding a Weirdboy unit but not for the cost of an HQ slot. Weridboyz shouldn't be HQs that just doesn't make sense, they have trouble controlling themselves and need to be held down by grotz so the idea of them leading an army of boyz is daft.

Weridboyz should just be an upgrade to Ork troops. No power they have is more dangerous that a typical SM heavy weapon and as mentioned above are highly unpredictable. I would add something like this:


On the way to the battle this unit of boyz encountered a weridboyz and have decided to smuggle him past the Warboss because they are always "good for a laugh"

NightrawenII
22-02-2010, 09:02
No, because in the fantasy every army have access to the mages (Im aware of the dwarves.).

But in 40k you have armies like Black Templars, Dark Eldar and WitchHunters, who have no access to psykers (Im aware of the Inquisitor, but still.). So making psychic powers powerful would simply invalidate these armies.

Falkman
22-02-2010, 09:16
But in 40k you have armies like Black Templars, Dark Eldar and WitchHunters, who have no access to psykers (Im aware of the Inquisitor, but still.). So making psychic powers powerful would simply invalidate these armies.
There are already plenty of psychic powers that are really powerful, so that argument doesn't really work.

Harfaern
22-02-2010, 09:34
I think the current magic phase of the WFB is a valid concept, but is badly designed; is one of the main points where the game is broken.

In W40k the psychics are not as relevant, but I prefer this than the "spellcasters contest" the WFB currently is. :(

Thanatos_elNyx
22-02-2010, 10:29
I like the power level of teh current 5thEd books, but won't be really happy until my Tzeentch CSM get the same treatment.

Though every army should have some level of minimal defense. (Even Tau could have Psychic Allies, Necrons with improved Pariahs, etc)
The most common items (RoW,Psychic Hood, Runic Weapons, etc) seem to reduce Psychic powers by about 50%, so it would be tough to have an army based solely around Psychic powers (e.g. if Thousand Sons were done properly) without giving them some sort of defense to the defense of others (though Daemons get around it by simply not being Psychic to start with).

Culven
22-02-2010, 11:04
Necrons with improved Pariahs,. . .
Oooo . . . A Pariah Lord . . . Aggggggggggg *Homer Simpson drooling smiley*

mooserehab86
22-02-2010, 11:47
I don't see where so many people are getting this idea that psykers would become mandatory for all armies. As far as I can remember, the OP didn't say anything about making psychic powers more dangerous in order to counter their proposed psychic defense idea. No one seems to think that psykers are mandatory in the current environment, and adding a layer of defense to their rules would certainly not change this. It could be something as simple as a rule saying units within 12" of a friendly psyker get a 5+ save against enemy psychic powers. This would be in no way game-breaking; it would just be a minor (albeit helpful) way to shield your army against the full brunt of psychic attacks.

Thanatos_elNyx
22-02-2010, 11:57
They wouldn't be Mandatory but it would be nice if every army had the option.

Even Dwarfs, who are decidedly anti-magic, have Rune Lords, more dispell dice, etc.

NightrawenII
22-02-2010, 13:53
There are already plenty of psychic powers that are really powerful, so that argument doesn't really work.
How it come? The 40k PP are nowhere the power level of WFB magic spells, so even army without psykers have good chance to work against them.

Iracundus
22-02-2010, 13:59
No, because in the fantasy every army have access to the mages (Im aware of the dwarves.).

But in 40k you have armies like Black Templars, Dark Eldar and WitchHunters, who have no access to psykers (Im aware of the Inquisitor, but still.). So making psychic powers powerful would simply invalidate these armies.

Not necessarily. There is the example of SoB with their resistance to psychic powers, and there were the examples of 2nd edition 40K psychic saves. Armies without active psykers could still have resistance to it much like the Dwarfs in WHFB.

Falkman
22-02-2010, 14:01
How it come? The 40k PP are nowhere the power level of WFB magic spells, so even army without psykers have good chance to work against them.
On the contrary, there are psychic powers that are on par with or better than most Fantasy spells.
Eldar's Doom, Guide and Fortune are incredibly powerful, and so are Tyranid's Catalyst and Paroxysm, and Chaos Space Marines' Lash of Submission. Definitely at the same level as the best buff/debuff spells in Fantasy. The pure damage spells in Fantasy are rarely the best spells, buffs and movement spells are much better. Some 40k damaging powers are definitely on par with most damaging spells in Fantasy, however.

loveless
22-02-2010, 14:12
The very title of this thread made me throw up a little.

WHFB Magic is most likely the worst implementation of magic I have ever seen in a miniatures game. It has the most outlandish ratios of risk:reward, causing the entire build of armies to shift to protect against the onslaught of magic. The quicker it gets changed so I don't feel compelled to bring mages just to try and stop the enemy, the better. I hear that 8th will alter it a bit, though, so that's a plus.

5th Edition 40K is already working its way towards requisite anti-psyker inclusion. Remember the fear of Jaws of the World Wolf? The lamenting of the new Tyranid powers? The bemoaning of Lash of Submission? I've already seen people include a Librarian/Rune Priest just because they fear opponent magic...it does help, however, that said Librarian/Rune Priest typically has some impressive spells of their own.

This alone makes the current psyker set-up of 40K superior to the magic abomination of WHFB - any psyker you take for defense is also effective at offense. This is rarely the case in WHFB, where your low-level mages will be shut down by a magic-heavy opponent without trying.

NightrawenII
22-02-2010, 15:12
Not necessarily. There is the example of SoB with their resistance to psychic powers, and there were the examples of 2nd edition 40K psychic saves. Armies without active psykers could still have resistance to it much like the Dwarfs in WHFB.
Yes, but the psychic saves are non-existent right now. So making powerful pp would cry for new edition. Not happend anytime soon.

On the contrary, there are psychic powers that are on par with or better than most Fantasy spells.
Eldar's Doom, Guide and Fortune are incredibly powerful, and so are Tyranid's Catalyst and Paroxysm, and Chaos Space Marines' Lash of Submission. Definitely at the same level as the best buff/debuff spells in Fantasy. The pure damage spells in Fantasy are rarely the best spells, buffs and movement spells are much better. Some 40k damaging powers are definitely on par with most damaging spells in Fantasy, however.
Don't get me wrong, but the LoS is broken and we all know it; the Eldar need their psychic powers and I dont know what the Catalyst and Paroxysm do, so I cannot comment.;)

freddieyu
22-02-2010, 15:13
Agree totally with Loveless..the current state of WHFB is partly due to some poorly designed army books having abuse of the magic system....I really hope 8th ed fixes it...I mean for me it is OK to get scroll caddies, but if even then that's not near enough something is wrong....

PP in 40k is a hit and miss thing so far..which is fine by me...and the fact vehicles are immune to most PP except for shooting powers also helps a lot...

sliganian
22-02-2010, 15:56
I will agree with the OP the the extent that psychic defenses are somewhat lacking. I think it is really silly that a Chaos Tzeentch sorcerer (or really any Chaos Sorcerer) -- who has a cable modem right into the God of Magic -- has as much psychic defense as a Snotling on valium.

Basically, I wouldn't mind seeing a low-level of psychic defense for all races based on an LD check of an HQ model. Think of it as a 'strength of will' issue at work.

Essentially, a psychic attack targetting a unit with an HQ model in it (not just 'using the LD of an HQ model' or some other tricksy IG trick) would result in a psychic hood-like battle between the caster and the castee. Obviously, the wizards would have to have some advantage over non-wizards but at least it would SOMETHING more than today.

cptmachine
22-02-2010, 16:02
I think the back-lash to this largely comes from the old guard who remeber the nightmare of force cards and Heros that took up 25% of your army list cost and since those days many armies have come out without pyshics so making an unopposed pyshic more powerful will harm those armies. If unopposed pyshic are not powerful, then why bother, because it would de-power the effectiveness of Physics.

Skyros
22-02-2010, 16:46
I think it works fairly well as is. I would not recommend trying to duplicate WFB's magic system - there are so many flaws with it that it is high on the list of things players hope changes most in 8th edition.

The 'pairing' of magic offense with magic defense is highly suspect the way WFB does it. If you bring 3 wizards and the enemy brings 4, you aren't getting any spells off, ever. This leads to a very 'all or nothing' approach to magic in WFB where people either bring no wizards or as many wizards as they can possibly manage. You never see a WFB army with just a single wizard for offensive magic support, but you see lots of 40k armies with just one psyker.

Cartographer
22-02-2010, 16:48
I don't see where so many people are getting this idea that psykers would become mandatory for all armies. As far as I can remember, the OP didn't say anything about making psychic powers more dangerous in order to counter their proposed psychic defense idea. No one seems to think that psykers are mandatory in the current environment, and adding a layer of defense to their rules would certainly not change this. It could be something as simple as a rule saying units within 12" of a friendly psyker get a 5+ save against enemy psychic powers. This would be in no way game-breaking; it would just be a minor (albeit helpful) way to shield your army against the full brunt of psychic attacks.

What you describe is exactly what the Pyschic Hood SHOULD have done all along (well, maybe a 4+) rather than the frankly absurd ability it has now.

The problem with adding a layer of extra rules is simple, why bother?
You want to pin an enemy unit? Snipers are generally cheaper and more versatile.
You want to destroy an enemy at range? Heavy weapons are generally cheaper and more versatile.
You want to shift an enemy off an objective? Close combat troops are generally cheaper and more versatile.

It has to be worth it from both a game point of view and a fun one. It can get by just from a game point, people will use things that are powerful even if not fluffy; it can't get by from just a fun one, I'm sure the notion of walking flamethrowers that explode when they die is hilarious, but you don't see many 'nid players clamouring to use Pyrovores.

The reward from the use should be proportional to the effort required to use it, if it's even slightly more complex than its effect is powerful, it'll be ignored for something more effective and easier to use.


I think the back-lash to this largely comes from the old guard who remeber the nightmare of force cards and Heros that took up 25% of your army list cost and since those days many armies have come out without pyshics so making an unopposed pyshic more powerful will harm those armies. If unopposed pyshic are not powerful, then why bother, because it would de-power the effectiveness of Physics.

Seriously, aside from the one-in-a-million chance of the Librarian actually picking Psychic Shield, Iron Arm, Teleport and Vortex, then managing to pull a turn 1 insta kill of your Land Raider and absorbing everything that you then threw at him, they just weren't that powerful in 2nd ed. Even with Teleport and pulling off a turn 1 charge, a Librarian should only kill 8 models unless you were an idiot. Attacks didn't carry out of combat and there was no reason for you to "pile in" at all; he killed 1 model a turn and you let him do it unless you picked the Witchunter mission then you maneuvered some firepower, disengaged and splatted him with shooting.

genestealer_baldric
22-02-2010, 17:43
er NO...NO....NO....NO..... the Magic phase currenteley ruins most WFB games i play i know that 40K seems to be going that way anyway but hopfully it was a blip that will go back to normal in the near future

fluffstalker
22-02-2010, 19:13
The very title of this thread made me throw up a little.

WHFB Magic is most likely the worst implementation of magic I have ever seen in a miniatures game. It has the most outlandish ratios of risk:reward, causing the entire build of armies to shift to protect against the onslaught of magic. The quicker it gets changed so I don't feel compelled to bring mages just to try and stop the enemy, the better. I hear that 8th will alter it a bit, though, so that's a plus.

5th Edition 40K is already working its way towards requisite anti-psyker inclusion. Remember the fear of Jaws of the World Wolf? The lamenting of the new Tyranid powers? The bemoaning of Lash of Submission? I've already seen people include a Librarian/Rune Priest just because they fear opponent magic...it does help, however, that said Librarian/Rune Priest typically has some impressive spells of their own.

This alone makes the current psyker set-up of 40K superior to the magic abomination of WHFB - any psyker you take for defense is also effective at offense. This is rarely the case in WHFB, where your low-level mages will be shut down by a magic-heavy opponent without trying.

This man speaks the truth. Last thing we need is the following conversation on 40k boards:

"I cast loldanse on my terminators. They now are in assault."
"I use dispel scroll!"
"I use counter-dispel miscellaneous magic item 83992."
"....:("

Hertic Bane
24-02-2010, 17:09
I have to agree it makes sence that some massive lord inqu or librian would be able to counter to some degree a little rouge psyker who has bearly mastered his thoights let alone how to interact with the warp. it would be sooo cool if we could do somthing like that. the only problem is that then the 40k game turns like WHFB were you have to take a wizard and spend points on counter magic of you get shredded by most armies.