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The Dragon Reborn
22-05-2005, 17:58
i play chaos undivided and iron warriors, and if i use 4 tanks any tanks say my usual is a deflier, 2 preds, and a dread all i can here is cheese, but say i play tau they can and do use 9 broadsides and no one says anything thats 9 twin linked str 10 shots compared to my, 1 ord, 3 las, 2 heavy bolters, and a cmobi bolter, or just even if they use 3 hammerheads thast 3 str 10 shots or 3 ordanance shots, why does chaos have such a bad name when ever team uses just may beardy lists? i am ranting yes my apologies but i still want to know why?

Cloudscape_online
22-05-2005, 18:19
I think it's because chaos has a reputation of being powerful. When an opponent sees some of the more powerful chaos units on the board they usually think, "5#it, i'm screwed." If you win a lot, they'll have even more reason to do so.

Gregorus
22-05-2005, 19:18
or is it because a broadsides are easier to kill than preds?

boogle
22-05-2005, 19:24
have you actually played Tau?, have you used the army at all, i would say its a bit on the cheesy side, but only if you take minimised FW squads

lord_blackfang
22-05-2005, 19:52
SM with 3 tanks and 3 Dreads is also perfectly acceptable. But remove 2 dreads, paint the rest Boltgun Metal with black&yellow chevrons and suddenly you're a beardy /b/tard.

Kahadras
22-05-2005, 20:09
I think its more the 4 pie plates that get peoples backs up about Iron Warriors.

Kahadras

The Dragon Reborn
22-05-2005, 20:50
i play against tau more than any other army except for maybe nids, dont worry i know what they can do and 9 broadsides in a good ole 2+save and a 3+ cover save is i bit harder to kill than a .few tanks, if you have broadsides i am willing ot bet you will get them in cover.

I think its more the 4 pie plates that get peoples backs up about Iron Warriors
i dont use 4 pie plates but get called beardy just as much as if I have you

Antaeus
22-05-2005, 21:03
A classic example of this came up a few years ago, when I was at Conflict Edinburgh with my Iron Warriors. Iron Warriors, I might add, I have collected since the WD article on them, not since the enw Codex came out.

I had never received one complaint from the other guys at the Braehead store about the army's capabilities-but then at Conflict I spoke to one of my mates who had played an IW force, and he berated the army. Iron Warriors are cursed with a highly abusable list-many players, usually those who like them for their background, artwork, models or similar non-tabletop reason do not make full use of this (can't remember last time I used all 4 Heavy slots and only once have 1 used 2 Ordnance weapons) - a good measure of what type of IW player they are is to, say, ask them what the Legion's homeworld was and the name of the daemon world they operate from.

Anyway, I digress. This capacity for abuse, rather than the fact that they will necessarily be an overpowering army (which they aren't, many IW players like myself try to win but make lists in line with the background and what models we like), is what gives IW a bad name, creating a reflex response that an IW list at a tourney will have 4 ordnance guns and 9 Obliterators.

neXus6
22-05-2005, 21:11
I loved the WD list but never got a chance to make and IW army back then. And now with the new codex they had parts of their character ripped out. Namly the 0-1 unit of berzerkers.

Ah well, things like that happen. As it is I never did start the army. And as tempting as breaking the norm and doing a balanced IW army is there are just to many IW armys out there now.

Lord Balor
22-05-2005, 22:26
*Opens Current Oz Edition of WD*
*Goes to IW vs Sallies Battle Rep*
*Sighs*

Lets have a look:

4 Heavy Support Choices -> CHECK (Vindicator, Bassie, Dread and TankHunter Havocs)
Multiple Obliterator Squads -> CHECK
Shooty Troop Squad with Mega Plasma and a Kaigun ->CHECK
A Single Solitary Squad capable of CC ->CHECK

*Remembers Previous IW Battle Rep*

3 Heavies
2 squads 2 Obliterators
2/3 Sit back and shoot squads

*Remembers back even further*

4 Heavies (2 Dreads, Bassie and Vindicator)
1/2 Troops with Lascannon P.Gun Combo
1 single Squad Dedicator to CC

With so much firepower at their disposal plus 2 Pie Plates of Doom, 3+ Saves and usually a Static line in Cover concerning themselves with only one phase a turn, people tend to feel a little offput playing against the Iron Warriors. Now i have absolutely no problems with IW players i've gone against as none has ever gone to the extremes shown in oz WD. People will read it (Oz WD), see the 'cheese' list and tar all players with the same brush(I hate the word, but its quicker to write than an army developed to maximise chances of winning with little of no regard to the spirit of the game).

I have never ever seen a 9 Obliterator 4 Pie shot army before and don't inted to (Cracks knuckles), but as others have stated, it is their capacity to do so that creates the ill feelings between players and the IW army list.

Antaeus
22-05-2005, 22:40
@neX: Yes, I had the squad of 'zerkies too, they came in the 100 army deal *sigh-glory days*

neXus6
22-05-2005, 22:50
See I would be very tempted to do a "final assault" style siege army.
Infiltrating Havoc squads with various kit, maybe 1 armourvalued heavy support piece (a dread probably), and some CC kitted out units.

It wouldbe pretty nice, while still being effective. But then there are a billion and one IW armies and about 5 Thousand Son players, which is my current other temptation in the "what small army to do to give me a break from the Guard massed infantry army."

grizzly ruin
23-05-2005, 00:05
i play chaos undivided and iron warriors, and if i use 4 tanks any tanks say my usual is a deflier, 2 preds, and a dread all i can here is cheese

That's because you are playing against people who probably have no minds of their own and are just regurgitating what they've read on a message board without actually understanding any of it.

Ignore them.


but say i play tau they can and do use 9 broadsides and no one says anything thats 9 twin linked str 10 shots

9 broadsides is pushing it a bit, the difference between the Tau list and the IW one, is that you can take all of those heavy support options, backed up by hard as nails 3+, and a daemon prince combat monster.

This doesn't mean you are taking that, but that's what gets people upset.

People don't like chaos, that's just the way of it.

I don't mind because, well, we're the bad guys. :evilgrin:


why does chaos have such a bad name when ever team uses just may beardy lists? i am ranting yes my apologies but i still want to know why?

Chaos has a bad name because they're a hard army, with powerful units.

And because you can make a really beardy list with the codex, and because they forget that they can (and probably do) make beardy lists with their own codex.


SM with 3 tanks and 3 Dreads is also perfectly acceptable. But remove 2 dreads, paint the rest Boltgun Metal with black&yellow chevrons and suddenly you're a beardy /b/tard.

:p



I think its more the 4 pie plates that get peoples backs up about Iron Warriors.


Iron Warriors are cursed with a highly abusable list


Let's have a look *snip*

That's slightly at the fault of the army list, and at the fault of the players who take those 4 ordinance slots.

If you really wanted to, you could take 3 vindicators in a standard SM list, and you could take the trait that turns your devs into elites and take 3 of those and be just as beardy.

Maybe IW are cursed with a list that doesn't have anywhere else to go.

Once you've removed daemons, and the option to take marked units - the chaos list loses a lot of it's power.

What's left to take in an IW list?

Terminators? Have you compared Chaos Terminators to loyal terminators, now or previously? Don't get me wrong, they can have their uses - but they're a lot harder to use than the other choices available. And it's hard to base a whole list around them.

Possesed? Too expensive for what they actually do, and they get shot up long before they ever get a chance to do it.

Bikes? Too expensive, and since you have no daemons to summon off of them - what's the point?

So what's left to take? Oblits, Heavy support, DP, Troops...

Looks like the lists we see doesn't it.

twisted_mentat
23-05-2005, 01:20
I admit, i always use the 4 Heavy slots.....but its broken down like this

1 Defiler
1 Support Dred (TL Lascannon, missile launcher)
1 Unit of 6 Havocs with 4 lascannons.
1 Pred destructor

Only the 4 lascannon Havocs have ever gotten the "cheese" comment, but that was from a guy who i knocked out his flying Hive Tyrant on turn 1...

People complain about the 4 pie plate IW army with the 9 Oblitorators....but....have you actaully seen such an army? Never in the years since the current chaos marine codex has come out. I've heard of them, but those were ALWAYS followed by "he proxied alot of it".

The Dragon Reborn
23-05-2005, 02:28
for one thing, that list 9 oblits and 4 pie plates isnt even that good, IF you know its coming. people load up on str 8-10 guns and tanks ,to insta kill a 70 point models and tear through tanks. basically they fight fire with fire. So if you are an IW player people automatically assume that you will take a beardy list so they make on to fight you, then you see that most everyone that plays you makes shady list and you cant compete unless you make one yourself. its a vicous cycle that sadly my friends is like the prison system of today hah, ps if that makes no sense sorry but oh well what can you do

grizzly ruin
23-05-2005, 04:18
Only the 4 lascannon Havocs have ever gotten the "cheese" comment, but that was from a guy who i knocked out his flying Hive Tyrant on turn 1...


Anyone who considers the overpriced 4 lascannon havoc/dev squad "cheese" is someone I deem fit to be quaranteened and summarily removed from the gene-pool for the posterity of the race as a whole.


for one thing, that list 9 oblits and 4 pie plates isnt even that good,

That's exactly right.

Melta guns, rail guns, plasma guns/pistols, lascannons, starcannons are all hell on Obliterators.

Lord Humongous
23-05-2005, 05:48
for one thing, that list 9 oblits and 4 pie plates isnt even that good, IF you know its coming. people load up on str 8-10 guns and tanks ,to insta kill a 70 point models and tear through tanks. basically they fight fire with fire. So if you are an IW player people automatically assume that you will take a beardy list so they make on to fight you, then you see that most everyone that plays you makes shady list and you cant compete unless you make one yourself. its a vicous cycle that sadly my friends is like the prison system of today hah, ps if that makes no sense sorry but oh well what can you do

How about an IW list that takes advantage of that, using mobile units with good anti-vehicle potential and cheap troops, to make high str shots a waste? 14 point CSM's are a bargin loyalists complain about, and IW gets them in spades. Raptors can have 4 chaos hounds added as cheap filler, and make great tank busters. Choosen with speed or flight can fill a similar role, with MORE hounds. Bikes with plasma and combi meltas can punch out any tank. Back it up by lots and lots of basic csms... speedy IW horde!

Lord Balor
23-05-2005, 06:27
That's slightly at the fault of the army list, and at the fault of the players who take those 4 ordinance slots.

If you really wanted to, you could take 3 vindicators in a standard SM list, and you could take the trait that turns your devs into elites and take 3 of those and be just as beardy.

Almost every army list can create an army of :cheese: . But IW alone have been ill represented by WD with one sided army lists and fielded by the one and only Pete Haines (Who despite all critisisem we give him, helps make 40K a better place ;) )



Maybe IW are cursed with a list that doesn't have anywhere else to go.
Once you've removed daemons, and the option to take marked units - the chaos list loses a lot of it's power.
What's left to take in an IW list?

This is the very train of thought that leads to :cheese: in its purest form (Man i love that the smiley's are back). Everything has a use and a way to be used. As for daemons, there's Daemon Princes who can range from a cheap and efficient HQ to a massive beast that eats little squigs for breakfast and Possessed (albiet are expensive are capable of doing horreundeous damage with multiple options available to them...Mmm Rending claws)).

Terminators come standard CombiBolter Power Weapon for 36 Points. These guys can rip right thorugh any unit they want to and easily massacre Loyalists with Powe Fists before they get to strike. If you dun like that, theres always the options for Powerfists, Lightning Claws, chain fists for serious hand to hand or a good old combi melta (Teleport, melta shot, goodbye 255 point LR). The Reaper Autocannon provides great medium range support and although not as powerful as the assault cannon, is capable of taking down medium vehicles with ease. All of thise comes at a decent price as well! Termies support the actions of your overall list, crashing out of the sky and landing where they are needed most, not acting as the crux of your entire army.


Possessed with Talons at 27 Points a model are expensive, but with 3 Str 5 rending attacks on the charge and standard LD 10, they are an awsome force to be reackoned with. As for being shot down, they have a 3+/5+ save standard and capacity for transports. If your smart and play your cards right, they will manage to get into the safety of CC unharmed.

Bikes are also expensive but unlike the loyalists, gain not just +1 T but also +1 attack at not extra cost. They can have two special weapons (Plasma for troops, meltas for tanks) and can have veteran skills. Not too shabby and something that will keep your opponent on edge.


So what's left to take? Oblits, Heavy support, DP, Troops...

Daemon Princes, Chosen, Troops with different veteran skills and equipment/transport options to emulate the strengths of marked troops, Raptors and your standard heavy support.

I field black legion and only use 1 deamon squad with no marks other than undivided. The reason being Daemons supplement your army and should not be the focus (Thats for Word Bearers) while marked units can be emulated thorugh Veteran skills and the vast array of options available to normal troop choices.

All i'm saying (In a very obscure way) is that Iron Warriors do not need massed firepower and pie plates to become an effictive army. Sure some Obliterators and Tanks fit in with the fluff but as a result of misrepresentation in WD and other sources, people percieve them to be 4 HS Max obliters as mandatory and therfore cheesy.

Delicious Soy
23-05-2005, 07:00
What the problem with using four tanks now? IMO you always need at least 3 AV targets to prevent them being neutralised in one turn. I prefer to play an army to see how it goes before calling it cheesy or whatever. Which isn't to say if I get massacred then it instantly equals cheese. Its a combination of the opponent and his army.

That said the IW list is open for exploitation, but so are many others (including Eldar, my army of choice). It just theat ATM IW have become the new Worldeaters. I=Each time pwergamers lose a PR war they have to find an army that hasn't been exploited fully so their opponents won't call them out on it. Kinda like locusts. :p

Ubik_Lives
23-05-2005, 07:49
Yeah, it's not the extra predator that's cheesy. It's getting 4 ordnance shots a turn with two defilers, a basilisk, and a vindicator. That's when it gets rude.

Also 9 broadsides would probably be frowned upon anyway.

Kahadras
23-05-2005, 08:38
The way I look at it most Chaos stuff is in many ways superior to its Imperial counterpart. Even with the update to the Space Marine codex, they still fall short of the Chaos in raw ability. The only thing that gave them some advantages over a Chaos force was the fact that they could field stuff that Chaos could not in term of technology (see Landspeeder). Then GW seem to have made some silly decisions and put Chaos back on par with SM in terms of technology (see Defiler, obliterators, vehicle upgrades). There are even rumours that in the next ed Chaos will be getting a Landspeeder.
I would like to see the next Chaos codex moved away from this more towards the fact that a lot of there equipment is thousands of years old and it therefore somewhat different to that now used by the Marines (not worse and not better, just different). I cannot see why certain legions would want to update there vehicles to the specifications of those of there misguided loyalist bretheran. I want to see a Chaos that has not really developed since the Horus Heresy and is still stuck in the past, fighting a war that was suposed to end ten thousand years ago; fielding the same equipment and heraldry as they did during the siege of Terra.
My main point is that the Chaos list is already far more flexible than its Loyalist counterpart and has access to far more stuff like deamons, equipment and uber hard characters. I would be interested to see how the new Chaos codex is written (probably in 2012 the way it is going atm) and whether the writters will shift the focus of the background at all.

Kahadras

Colonial Rifle
23-05-2005, 10:25
Spot on. What ******* me off about the latest Chaos codex is how unfluffy it is. Wasn't plasma/melta tech rare for chaos forces? Chaos Marines were the natural conservatives of WH40K, unchanged for thousands of years. Now, their basic squads are loaded down with options - the majority of which are the same cost as their imperial equivalent. I don't mind Chaos armies having Plasma guns, etc. But shouldn't they pay *considerably* more for the option?

I also can't fathom the reason for the defiler being indirect fire - why did chaos *need* heavy artillery?

grizzly ruin
23-05-2005, 10:27
Almost every army list can create an army of :cheese: . But IW alone have been ill represented by WD with one sided army lists and fielded by the one and only Pete Haines (Who despite all critisisem we give him, helps make 40K a better place ;) )

They have. He did and he does.



Maybe IW are cursed with a list that doesn't have anywhere else to go.
Once you've removed daemons, and the option to take marked units - the chaos list loses a lot of it's power.
What's left to take in an IW list?

I don't think I phrased this properly.

Removing daemons and marked units removes access to a large portion of specialized assault troops which are available to chaos armies - this being one of their forte's.

Although the list still retains a few of the specialized assault troops like Raptors, Possesed, (possibly) Bikers, and Terminaors - these all represent the more expensive and more difficult to use properly troops.

This by no means makes it a "weak" list, if I was to suggest that I'd need to get my head examined.



So what's left to take? Oblits, Heavy support, DP, Troops...



Daemon Princes *snip*

I mentioned him.


Possessed (albiet are expensive are capable of doing horreundeous damage with multiple options available to them...Mmm Rending claws)).

I find almost none of those options to be even remotely cost efficient.

22 points base, 27 points (with out MoCU) in the D-talons example.

So 8 guys comes to a) 176 or b) 216. The 22 point base guys are going to require an AC with at the very least a PF and BP, bringing squad a) to 205 points. Let's call it an average of 210 points.

Taking them without talons makes the squad cheaper, but less effective.

Taking them with talons makes them more effective, but significantly more expensive, and I can't buy a powerfist/sword for the AC for those guaranteed kills when I need it.

Then I need to get these maniacs across the field.

That requires them to either

A) Walk and be shot to all hell.
B) Buy a rhino.

So we buy the standard package Rhino at a cost of 58 extra points. Making the squad roughly 268 points. With no accompanying unit in another Rhino for safety in numbers.

Now, that's not the end of the world. When they hit they are going to be devastating. However, for the price one could buy nearly 3 units of 6 daemonettes a piece who don't need to walk anywhere.

Just a comparison on the costs. They are a lot of other factors (Possesed have better STR, T and Saves).




Terminators come standard CombiBolter Power Weapon for 36 Points. These guys can rip right thorugh any unit they want to and easily massacre Loyalists with Powe Fists before they get to strike. If you dun like that, theres always the options for Powerfists, Lightning Claws, chain fists for serious hand to hand or a good old combi melta (Teleport, melta shot, goodbye 255 point LR). The Reaper Autocannon provides great medium range support and although not as powerful as the assault cannon, is capable of taking down medium vehicles with ease.

I disagree with a lot of this.

Yes they would do well against a Loyalist Terminator squad.

A Loyalist assault squad however, would eat them for lunch and at only 4 points extra per model they'd have an extra attack per man, re-rolling all wounds and striking at the same initiative - all things being equal. You could spend 5 more points for a single lightning claw with no extra attack, and another 1 point for MoCU to try and even out ATSKNF, but now your actually paying more and still getting hit harder.

Loyalist shooty Terminators will also outshoot them to hell and back.

Starting with being able to take 2 assault cannons regardless of how small the squad is vs. Only 1 reaper per 3 men. And the two can't be compared in the least.

And finishing with the combi-bolter. Which isn't completely terrible, but you only get the most out of it at 12" which isn't too far out of assault range.

It's not bad, but the Combination of combi-bolters plus reapers means these guys aren't really that great of a shooty squad. There are certainly cheaper and better options in the heavy support section which IW has heaps of access too.

They can assault well, and shoot reasonably well, but for the same points you could buy two different squads who would specialize on one, be better at it, and at the same time add more bodies to the field.

I don't hate Chaos Terminators, but they give me a bit of the "Meh's".



All of thise comes at a decent price as well! Termies support the actions of your overall list, crashing out of the sky and landing where they are needed most, not acting as the crux of your entire army.

That's a good point, they really aren't the whole list.

Of course, an IW player could buy 3 single oblits in different squads and come crashing out of the sky firing twin linked metlas or TL plasma guns, or Lascannons - while being tactically more flexible and a great deal more expendable. For when you've just gotta take out that tank that's giving you hell at the cost of the guys who will do it.




Bikes are also expensive but unlike the loyalists, gain not just +1 T but also +1 attack at not extra cost. They can have two special weapons (Plasma for troops, meltas for tanks) and can have veteran skills. Not too shabby and something that will keep your opponent on edge.

As hard hitting as they can be, buying guys that start at 34 points each, without a mark or upgrades, without an ac or vet skills isn't the greatest option for assault.

Still, you're right, it is an option.

The problem is, if you're playing IW, the option to just shoot seems much better.



Chosen

Power Armored chosen make baby jesus cry. :cries:

Why are they at +3 points base? No one will ever know, not in any way that makes sense anyhow.



Troops with different veteran skills and equipment/transport options to emulate the strengths of marked troops

Nothing can emulate True Grit and T5, nor a Chain Axe, nor Warp Scream, nor 2 wounds each. Nevermind fearlessness.

Which is fine, these are standard troops afterall!




Raptors

I love Raptors, raptors are great. I don't think everyone knows how to use them effectively unfortunately.


All i'm saying (In a very obscure way) is that Iron Warriors do not need massed firepower and pie plates to become an effictive army. Sure some Obliterators and Tanks fit in with the fluff but as a result of misrepresentation in WD and other sources, people percieve them to be 4 HS Max obliters as mandatory and therfore cheesy.

I'll agree with the misrepresentation as you mention.

But you shouldn't have to ignore your armies special rules just so other players won't whine.

So you could be an IW player and take an expensive, delicate, hard to use unit like one of the ones mentioned above at a cost of 250~300+ points.

Or you could buy 3 oblits at 210, or a defiler at 150, or hell even another Havoc squad for 200.


It's not an excuse, but it may provide a bit of insight.

grizzly ruin
23-05-2005, 10:32
I had to break my response up into two posts because I got too mouthy :p



The way I look at it most Chaos stuff is in many ways superior to its Imperial counterpart. Even with the update to the Space Marine codex, they still fall short of the Chaos in raw ability.

I don't agree with that as it's stated. They are superior in raw assault ability.

I'm going to run through my own opinions on the codex SM (which I think is a good codex)

1) Loyal terminators are superior to Chaos terminators, but I prefer specialized troops to the generalists that CSM Termies are, I'd also like my terminators to be able to deepstrike in any mission they so feel like. And if you don't like your terminators just buy Grey Knights!! :rolleyes:

2) Drop pods rock. Rhinos suck. If I want to get my troops across the field I need to take Rhinos. No comparison. (That being said, I don't want to see CSMs get drop pods - Drop podding possesed or bezerkers save us :eek: )

3) Razorback option

4) Land Speeders w/ Assault Cannons - Cheap, mobile and effective.

5) LR Crusader - IMHO the best transport in the game.

6) Access to allies to fill in any gaps in your force.

7) Access to (massed) assault cannons, multi-meltas, stormbolters, plasma cannons (multi-meltas and plasma cannons are only available on Chaos Dreads, although the PC is a waste of points these days).

8) Cheap ordinance (whirlwinds) and STR 10 AP 2 ordinance.


So I would hardly say that CSMs are "superior", they are different.

They are also more tricky and less reliable (daemons, instability rolls, daemonic mastery rolls).



Spot on. What ******* me off about the latest Chaos codex is how unfluffy it is. Wasn't plasma/melta tech rare for chaos forces? Chaos Marines were the natural conservatives of WH40K, unchanged for thousands of years. Now, their basic squads are loaded down with options - the majority of which are the same cost as their imperial equivalent. I don't mind Chaos armies having Plasma guns, etc. But shouldn't they pay *considerably* more for the option?

I also can't fathom the reason for the defiler being indirect fire - why did chaos *need* heavy artillery?


You'll have to pardon me for sounding a bit brusque here, but you sound like someone who is;

A space marine player who thinks that SM should be better than chaos armies, and dislike chaos armies if you feel that isn't true.

You might not be an SM player. It's just how that post comes across.

I'm not sure what you mean by "unchanged for thousands of years" and "natrual conservatives".

CSMs didn't just go into some stasis and wake up recently. That's necrons.

As far as being loaded down with options goes, and being able to take an extra plasma gun/ melta gun in their squads (which loyalists using a trait can now do btw), if you need some kind of a fluff justification here goes:

They live for war and nothing else, and they have had 10,000 years to collect heaps of extra plasma guns and melta guns off the corpses of loyal SMs and Imperial guardsmen.

I think that'll do. ;)


I'd also like to add that with the traits system, often you gain more than you could ever lose and it adds all sorts of flexibility to your list.

Kahadras
23-05-2005, 11:33
1) Loyal terminators are superior to Chaos terminators, but I prefer specialized troops to the generalists that CSM Termies are, I'd also like my terminators to be able to deepstrike in any mission they so feel like. And if you don't like your terminators just buy Grey Knights!!

Nonsence there is nothing wrong with Chaos Terminators at all. I have had my ass handed to me in several games due to them. Nurgle terminators are especialy fun with their toughness of 5. I also want to point out that Grey Knight Terminators are INSANLY expencive and will still die just as fast as normal terminators will.


2) Drop pods rock. Rhinos suck. If I want to get my troops across the field I need to take Rhinos. No comparison. (That being said, I don't want to see CSMs get drop pods - Drop podding possesed or bezerkers save us )

And you will as soon as it can be FAQ'd or the next Chaos codex comes out. Forgeworld have alrwady produced the Dreadclaw.


3) Razorback option

The Razorback sucks IMO. It's to expencive for what is basicaly a Rhino with a bigger gun.


4) Land Speeders w/ Assault Cannons - Cheap, mobile and effective.

Weyhey about our only advantage over Chaos atm apart from our varients of Landraider.


5) LR Crusader - IMHO the best transport in the game.

See above.


6) Access to allies to fill in any gaps in your force.

Chaos does not need this due to the insane amount of stuff it can take anyway streching from Greater Daemons right the way through to Traitor Imperial Guard units.


7) Access to (massed) assault cannons, multi-meltas, stormbolters, plasma cannons (multi-meltas and plasma cannons are only available on Chaos Dreads, although the PC is a waste of points these days).

Is there really any point? Assault cannon are now OK (compared to what they were). Multimeltas are only ever useful on Landspeeders. Storm bolters ain't all that and Plasma cannon are now totaly useless IMO.


8) Cheap ordinance (whirlwinds) and STR 10 AP 2 ordinance.

Whirlwinds are only good against light infantry and the Demolisher suffers from a lack of range compared to the indirect AP3 of the Defiler.

This is not to mention demon bomb armies, 2nd turn charge armies and insane close combat abilities and wargear such as Manreaper (regularly takes a squad of Marines out a turn). Chaos is in need of a real working over in their next codex (giving demons summoning sickness so the demonbomb army will be less uber would be nice)

Kahadras

Etienne de Beaugard
23-05-2005, 12:16
Maybe its because you game against players who cry 'cheese' too easily, while you are more restrained? The end result, your army is called cheesy while your opponent's is not.

grizzly ruin
23-05-2005, 12:20
Nonsence there is nothing wrong with Chaos Terminators at all. I have had my ass handed to me in several games due to them. Nurgle terminators are especialy fun with their toughness of 5. I also want to point out that Grey Knight Terminators are INSANLY expencive and will still die just as fast as normal terminators will.

The Grey Knights bit was sarcasm, due to the innumerable times I see Grey Knights show up in SM army list threads here on Portent.

I didn't say that there was anything specifically wrong with Chaos Terminators.

What I was trying to say was.

Loyal Shooty Terminators are better at shooting than Chaos Terminators.

At an even points value (i.e. assuming you haven't upgraded everyone to Aspiring Champions) Loyalist Assault Terminators are better at assault than Chaos Terminators.

Chaos Terminators are better at being "flexible". Although Shooty Loyal terminators can still do well in an assault.




The Razorback sucks IMO. It's to expencive for what is basicaly a Rhino with a bigger gun.

It's still an option to take a Rhino that does a little more than drive, pop smoke and explode.

But I'll concede this one, I'd prefer having access to my daemons over a razor back anyday.




This is not to mention demon bomb armies, 2nd turn charge armies and insane close combat abilities and wargear such as Manreaper (regularly takes a squad of Marines out a turn). Chaos is in need of a real working over in their next codex (giving demons summoning sickness so the demonbomb army will be less uber would be nice)


This is all assault stuff.

I've alreay admitted that CSM is superior in assault. But I think SMs do shooty more efficiently and more reliably.

Maybe they aren't. I could be completely wrong.


I'd respond to more, but my dinner is currently unsupervised! :eek:



edit: My rogan josh is safe! :p

@ Kahadras

I have an idea, why don't we take this to a new thread so Dragon Reborn can have his back. :D

I agreed with a good portion of your SM Tac and Assault squad posts (although, not all), and I'm a reasonable guy who is willing to listen.

Why don't you try to sway me in a new thread, and show me why you think CSMs are superior to SMs.

This is going to have to go beyond assault, because I've already conceded that point, and we should stick to the Vanilla lists (allowing traits) as the Cult and Specific Legion Undivided armies are all different.

hairyman
23-05-2005, 12:43
I play chaos (undivided) and a friend of mine plays marines. We are forever having this argument ("Chaos is overpowered", "marines are the strongest army", etc).

I would have to say the two are balanced.

Ok, the chaos dex provides a huge number of possibilities, but then it is really four or five mini codexes in one. If you add together all the chapter codexes with the main SM book, and the daemon hunters dex, then you're looking at a pretty big range of options for a budding SM general as well.

ATSKNF. Awesome. Far, far, far, better than the undivided mark.. infinately preferable to daemonic instability.

I could go on and go through the gear and unit choices (librarian or tzeench sorceror would be an interesting comparison), but in general for everything chaos has you can point to something the marines have, and visa versa. Yes, Chaos can get more uber assaulty powerful, but it all comes at a cost. If your 200pt moster-100 attacks - ignore all saves - 72" charge daemon prince gets shot to bits by sniper and las fire before seeing combat then the temptation to dump hundreds of points in dedicated cc units suddenly looks.. well, less temoting (see Grizzly's possessed unit example above... 250pts + for an isolated assault unit).


The lists, as I say, balance each other out. Apart from maybe ATSKNF.

Edit: yeah, this deserves its own thread

Kahadras
23-05-2005, 14:58
and show me why you think CSMs are superior to SMs.

Its small things rather than the whole list. Stuff like Nurgle plague marines are identical to Grey hunters apart from the fact they have +1 toughness and cost the same amount of points.


Maybe they aren't. I could be completely wrong.

I would agree that Marines are more reliable than Chaos and have superior firepower in some respects but I still find that they struggle due to the speed that some Chaos armies can get across the table (I have has a Bloodthirster, Chaos lord, bike squad and 2 units of bloodletters in my lines by the second turn)


have an idea, why don't we take this to a new thread so Dragon Reborn can have his back.

I agree with this as well but I feel that this is another thread that will devolve down into an argument which will result in Hofflenosh for all concerned. Always the problem when Loyalists and Traitors butt heads. Its definatly a case of the grass is always greener on the other side.


I would have to say the two are balanced.

The problem is you are looking at the 4th ed marines and the 3rd ed Chaos book. Compare the 3rd ed Marines codex to the Chaos marines codex and have a good laugh (So much for the standardistion that GW promised at the start of 3rd ed. The old Marine codex was so far behind by the advent of 4th ed it was funny. I am more expressing a concern that GW is seeking to put Chaos on an even footing with the Imperium without recognising that Chaos already has access a lot of stuff that a marine player would love to get his hands on. I dread the idea that Chaos will get Landspeeders or drop pods because "its not fair, the Space Marines get them and they are not as uber as Chaos are, Chaos r0x0rs and should get l337 kit over the Imperium.
Ahh well thats just my view on it. I'll bow out and let people get back on with what was originaly the intended topic of the post.

Kahadras

grizzly ruin
23-05-2005, 15:27
I agree with this as well but I feel that this is another thread that will devolve down into an argument which will result in Hofflenosh for all concerned. Always the problem when Loyalists and Traitors butt heads. Its definatly a case of the grass is always greener on the other side.

Nah, let's give it a shot. we'll just ignore anyone who contributes mindless drivel and stick to facts.

Honestly, I won't be that upset if you prove me wrong, afterall I play chaos. :p




I dread the idea that Chaos will get Landspeeders or drop pods

I don't think landspeeders really belong in a chaos army myself, what the hell would we even arm it with? More combi-bolters? The reaper autocannon?

No thanks. I don't think it fits with the list either.

As far as drop pods go, well, I can't say I would be too displeased if they became available to me. But that's because trying to use Rhinos without using 3 of them is pointless, and I'm not a daemonbomber, nor am I a fan of bikes.

Which means my guys have to walk or infiltrate. I wouldn't mind a new transport option of some kind, not sure if it should be a drop pod as that could really unbalance a lot of things.


The few things I'd like to see in the chaos codex (there's no attempt at balance here, this is just stuff I'd like :p );

1) C L A R I T Y.

2) A reason why my Chosen in power armor cost an 3 extra points, like the vet skill that gets built into the price for SM vets. (Formerly Chaos Veterans used to have the infiltrators rule built into their cost, so it wouldn't be too much of a stretch).

I shouldn't have to pay an extra 3 points per man because the unit is capable of being configured insanely, which I have never seen anyone bother trying to use.

3) A fast attack choice that isn't either a) expensive or b) a daemon.

4) Guns for my Terminators that make not having dual lightning claws available worthwhile.

5) Land raider crusaders - I'm kidding.

Gub
23-05-2005, 16:23
I agree. People scream cheese when I use 2 wraithlords in 1000 points, but it's alright to use a monolith, or a landraider?

Most people that call you cheesy are unprepared for your army, and powergamers like to scream chesse when they lose. Don't take it personally though.

PBGhost
23-05-2005, 22:09
I agree. People scream cheese when I use 2 wraithlords in 1000 points, but it's alright to use a monolith, or a landraider?
.

Uh, no it isnt. All three of those things are cheesy, so are 9 broadsides and 4 pie plates.

PlagueLord
24-05-2005, 05:40
(librarian or tzeench sorceror would be an interesting comparison)

The librarian wins, hands down. One on one, the sorcerer will probably win (Bolt of Change to the face), but in terms of effectiveness a tooled up librarian is more useful. A librarian with Veil of Time and some close-combat gear is lethal, while a sorcerer with close-combat gear is just an overpriced close-combat lord (who is still lethal, but not because he has psychic powers, rather in spite of them).

A librarian protects your entire army from psychic attacks just be being there, a sorcerer can buy an amulet to give enemy psychers -1Ld (YAY :rolleyes: ), and/or an overpriced power sword that messes with psychers who are already too close to him. He might as well forget the sword, grab a Dark Blade for the same points, and go massacre the enemy psycher in melee.

grizzly ruin
24-05-2005, 07:16
The librarian wins, hands down. One on one, the sorcerer will probably win (Bolt of Change to the face), but in terms of effectiveness a tooled up librarian is more useful. A librarian with Veil of Time and some close-combat gear is lethal, while a sorcerer with close-combat gear is just an overpriced close-combat lord (who is still lethal, but not because he has psychic powers, rather in spite of them).

A librarian protects your entire army from psychic attacks just be being there, a sorcerer can buy an amulet to give enemy psychers -1Ld (YAY :rolleyes: ), and/or an overpriced power sword that messes with psychers who are already too close to him. He might as well forget the sword, grab a Dark Blade for the same points, and go massacre the enemy psycher in melee.

All, very sadly, true.