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metro_gnome
09-02-2006, 14:56
can a tzeench doombull take arcane magic items?

Azazel
09-02-2006, 17:50
Nope. Just one Magic Weapon.

Festus
09-02-2006, 18:02
Hi

Doesn't the Mark of Tzeentch make the Doombull a Shaman?

Greetings
Festus

metro_gnome
09-02-2006, 20:15
yes it does... and the doombull entry says he may choose 100 point worth of magic weapons...

but im having trouble finding the rule that actually allows tzeench marked anything to have arcane items...
and i know they must be allowed as there is a tzeench only arcane item...
the wording of that rule would tell if a Tzeench Doombulls could spend some of his points on arcane items...

Kjell
09-02-2006, 20:27
I wouldn't think that a Doombull with the MoT gains access to arcane items. His entry does very explicitly state that he may choose one magic weapon with a value of up to 100 points, and that's it.

Keller
09-02-2006, 20:27
Arcane items, as best as I can tell, are the only item catagory that is limited to characters. Characters generally get the statement "may select magic items from the .... or common item lists of x points". I must confess, I haven't seen the Doombull's entry, but I would think they could take arcane items since Tzeentch mark makes them into a spell caster.

The section on magic items in the BRB, p. 153, shows that any spell caster may select items from the arcane list, as long as they only have 1 item from it as normal. Unless explicitly stated in the Bull's descripition that he cannot take arcane items with Tzeentch, I would say that he can.

metro_gnome
09-02-2006, 20:46
oh yes it is very difinitive...

"May choose a magic weapon from the Common or Chaos Magic Items list with a maximum value of 100 points"
(may a mod smite this if it offends thine eyes)

but my question revolves around whatever rule it is that allows Tzeench model to use arcane items...
if for example it said "A character with the Mark of Tzeench is a wizard and may take arcane items"...
i would be on firmer ground...

is such a thing stated somewhere? or is it mainly implication?
if it is not i have to wonder if tzeench models can use arcane items at all...

Kjell
09-02-2006, 21:22
A Chaos Lord with the MoT can take arcane items since the MoT makes him a level 4 wizard. There's no need for the MoT to also give him access to arcane items, since a wizard automatically has access to arcane items unless the character who is or is upgraded to a wizard is restricted to a certain group of magic items or, I think, is a wizard only due to a magic item.

Makaber
10-02-2006, 00:29
Yes, but Doombulls can per definition only take magical weapons, ever. Weapons are the only magical items they are allowed to take. Arguing wether or not a Chaos Lord would be able to take them is completely besides the point, and only serves to confuse.

So the answer is no, a Tzeench marked Doombull can not take arcane items.

It can be argued the Staff of Darkoth is a magical weapon, since it's both an arcane item, but also a braystaff, which is a weapon. There is a lot of discussion if the Staff of Darkoth counts as a magical weapon with regards to wounding ethereal creatures and the like, but in this context, it's irrelevant since it's not in the category the Doombull is allowed to select magic items from, namely magical weapons.

Any questions?

T10
10-02-2006, 08:57
Arcane Items are limited to Wizards only. This is a restriction on the category itself.

The Doombull can only take Magical Weapons. This is a restriction on the character.

Upgrading the Doombull to a Wizard means that the Arcane Items category is no longer restricted per se. It is a moot point, however, as his "Magical Weapons only" restriction means tat it isn't available anyway.

It's like winning a car and not having a driver's license.

-T10

Kjell
10-02-2006, 14:03
Yes, but Doombulls can per definition only take magical weapons, ever. Weapons are the only magical items they are allowed to take. Arguing wether or not a Chaos Lord would be able to take them is completely besides the point, and only serves to confuse.

Well, I had already brought up that the Doombull could only take magic weapons, and he was wondering if there was anything directly about the Mark of Tzeentch that made the wearer able to use arcane items. I might've not been as clear as I could have, but that was what I was trying to answer.


I shall try again. Hopefully with more success. :p



but my question revolves around whatever rule it is that allows Tzeench model to use arcane items...
if for example it said "A character with the Mark of Tzeench is a wizard and may take arcane items"...
i would be on firmer ground...

is such a thing stated somewhere? or is it mainly implication?
if it is not i have to wonder if tzeench models can use arcane items at all...

A character with the MoT may, if it does not have additonal restrictions like the Doombull, take and use arcane items because they are Wizards. It's the MoT that makes them Wizards but it's not the Mark as such that gives them the ability to use arcane items. Rather, it's the fact that they are Wizards.


Was that clearer than the last time around?

metro_gnome
10-02-2006, 14:38
well yes Kjell is right...

but it would be clearer to compare it to a Daemon Prince who is a level 4 sorceror...
and should by the defintion of sorceror be allowed to take arcane items...
but cannot because there is no mechanic to allow it...
so to follows the Doombull (and the Shaggoth for that matter)...
who are sorcerors but also cannot attain arcane magic items... due to lack of mechanic...

im just suprised that the rule regarding MoT and Arcane items is so flimsy... and based on implcation...
usually what a character is allowed to do with an upgrade is spelled out in warhammer...

by this reasoning tho a character who is made a wizard by magic items should definitly be allowed arcane items as well...

Kjell
10-02-2006, 14:45
Speaking of that, are characters who are made wizards by taking a particular magic item allowed to also take arcane items if they have the points for it? I just assumed they weren't. :o

You could easily argue both ways but it does generally say that they become Wizards...

Avian
10-02-2006, 14:50
Speaking of that, are characters who are made wizards by taking a particular magic item allowed to also take arcane items if they have the points for it? I just assumed they weren't. :o
Since the only normal restriction on Arcane Items is that you have to be a Wizard, yes they can.

Army book restrictions over-rule rulebook restrictions*, so a Doombull of Tzeentch cannot take Arcane Items, since his rule is "May only take Magic Weapons" and not "May not take Magic Armour, Talismans or Enchanted Items."


* it would otherwise be pointless to have army book restrictions.

Kjell
10-02-2006, 15:51
Since the only normal restriction on Arcane Items is that you have to be a Wizard, yes they can.

Ah, I see. I thought it sounded too nice to be true. :p But, that's interesting to know.

metro_gnome
10-02-2006, 16:04
Army book restrictions over-rule rulebook restrictions*, so a Doombull of Tzeentch cannot take Arcane Items, since his rule is "May only take Magic Weapons" and not "May not take Magic Armour, Talismans or Enchanted Items."

* it would otherwise be pointless to have army book restrictions.

certainly...but surely you can see that a rule that specifically allows MoT models to carry arcane items...
might over rule the unit entry... depending on the wording...

instead we have a vague implied rule that allows arcane items to MoT characters...
and through process of elimination...
we discover that it in fact allows arcane items to less than half of the characters with the MoT...

i've always heard it described that "because he has the MoT he may use arcane items"...
but instead it is "because he is a wizard who may take magic items he may use arcane items"...
which is very clumsy imho...

Avian
13-02-2006, 12:55
certainly...but surely you can see that a rule that specifically allows MoT models to carry arcane items...
might over rule the unit entry... depending on the wording...
Sure, but the only way the Doombull would be allowed Arcane items is if his "Only Magic weapons" rule included an exception for Arcane items if taking the MoT or if the MoT said that a Doombull with it could take Arcane items.

HeraldoftheGods
13-02-2006, 17:27
Here's an easy way to think about it.
Based upon the wording of the rule (i.e. "only Wizards") try to imagine that the rule for Arcane items in the main rulebook is not a permission for wizards to take Arcane items whenever they want, rather it is a restriction on other charachters to NOT take Arcane items.

For a Doom bull, this is then further restricted by it's specific rule which only allows it to take Magic Weapons. This is in accordance with
"Magic items can be carried by characters...This is indicated in the army list for each army..."

As Avian said, army book rules over core rulebook rules.