PDA

View Full Version : WoC Marks on Characters and their Chariot/Dragon



GWItheUltimate
23-02-2010, 21:43
Please correct me if I'm wrong:

Mark of Slanesh:

-If character has MoS but not the Chariot/Dragon, the whole model is imune to fear/terror.

-If chariot has MoS but not the Character, the Whole model is affected by MoS.

MoK:

If either the character of the chariot has MoK, the whole model is frenzy !

MoT:

If the character has MoT but not the chariot/dragon, only the character has the ward save.

If the chariot has MoT but not the character, only the chariot has the ward save.

MoN:

I think a good way to play it would be:

FIRST roll a D6 to see if you shoot at the chariot or the character (1-5 = chariot, 6 = character)... If you rolled 6 (and thus attack the character) and the character has MoN, apply -1 BS to see if you hit him. Same logic if the chariot has the MoN but not the Character, or if the character rides a Dragon/manticore.

In close combat, if the character only has the MoN, you suffer -1WS only if you attack the character and not the chariot. Same thing if only the chariot has the MoN, you don't suffer -1WS if you attack the character.

Thank you guys !

GWI

T10
23-02-2010, 21:55
Yes on all accounts.

However: Characters and their mount's phychology is found on p.79: Mount's Psychology. This does not specifically deal with immunity to fear and terror, but seems safe to assume that these follow the same principle as immunity to psychology.

-T10

seraphile
23-02-2010, 22:03
Interestingly (and kinda related) in the O&G FAQ it states that chariots bought as mounts for characters are treated like monstrous mounts and are not allowed to choose any of the options in the list, these options are for chariots chosen as a special choice only.
It seems however from the WoC book that this approach was not taken with the wording in the chariot entry.

However i would agree with your judgements except that I probably wouldnt give the extra attack for frenzy to the whole model, only the parts of it with the actual MoK.

Zaustus
24-02-2010, 03:12
Frenzy explicitly passes from rider to mount and vice versa, so if either the character or the chariot have MoK, the entire model is frenzied.

GWItheUltimate
24-02-2010, 03:18
Yes it is stated that Frenzy passes to Mounts/crew if you put a frenzied character on a chariot ! The whole model is frenzy.

The only one I wasn't sure is MoN but it seams to make concensus.

Djekar
24-02-2010, 08:05
Actually, from what I understand a model with MoN on a monstrous mount is *not* a -1 to hit because you cannot actually "target" the model with MoN because of the randomization. So you better give that chariot MoN too!

Pretty sure that this is found in the FAQ/Errata for WoC.

Morthak
24-02-2010, 08:29
Can't wait to use my Sorcerer of Khorne!

Ophidian
24-02-2010, 10:55
The MoN on dragon/chariot seems to be the one with the most ambiguity. From the two sections in the rulebook, I can't see anything that would suggest you don't get the -1BS when shooting.

The argument against is you're not targetting the character, only the model, and so the modifier shouldn't apply.

But by that argument, you shouldn't get +1 for Large Target; afterall, only the dragon is the large target, not the dude on top. And you can't target him separately either...

theunwantedbeing
24-02-2010, 11:07
Mark of Tzeentch
- Ward save. Doesnt say it transfers so it doesnt transfer. Due to how ward saves work.

Mark of Khorne
- Frenzy to one part, the entire thing gets it regardless of the source. Due to how frenzy works.

Mark of Nurgle
- -1 when being shot at, doesnt apply when on a non-nurgle chariot or monster mount, or when in a non-nurgle unit. Similarly in combat the -1 is only for when attacking the bit with the nurgle mark, attacks on other parts dont suffer it(note only rolling to hit, not when rolling to be hit by the nurgle marked model). As you cannot target the rider normally, and only attacks targetting him suffer the modifier.

Mark of Slaanesh
- The entire model gets to benefit if the rider is marked, although this doesnt reverse so a non-marked character on a slaanesh chariot doesnt get the immunities. Due to the rider taking the tests, not the mount.

That's how I'de play it anyway.

GWItheUltimate
24-02-2010, 13:17
Actually, from what I understand a model with MoN on a monstrous mount is *not* a -1 to hit because you cannot actually "target" the model with MoN because of the randomization. So you better give that chariot MoN too!

Pretty sure that this is found in the FAQ/Errata for WoC.

No I carefully checked and it's not FAQed at all.

The only thing that tickles me is that you can pay 15 pts to put MoK on the character and have the whole model being affected by frenzy but you have to pay 50pts to put MoN on both chariot/character to get the -1BS when you shoot at it... MoN is just too expensive...

WarhamsterJ
24-02-2010, 16:40
Actually you do not pay for the mark on a character's chariot.
The cost of the character's mark coupled with the cost of the character covers the chariot.
Therefore, the subject of an unmarked character on a marked chariot is nugatory.
An unmarked character rides an unmarked chariot.
If the character is marked the chariot bears and benefits from the same mark.

J

GWItheUltimate
24-02-2010, 18:13
Actually you do not pay for the mark on a character's chariot.
The cost of the character's mark coupled with the cost of the character covers the chariot.
Therefore, the subject of an unmarked character on a marked chariot is nugatory.
An unmarked character rides an unmarked chariot.
If the character is marked the chariot bears and benefits from the same mark.

J

Where such thing is written ? It's really not that clear on the book.

Gaargod
24-02-2010, 19:32
It comes down to what you're shooting at. You shoot at it, then you randomize hits.

Therefore, are you shooting at the mount/chariot, the character on top, or the model as a whole? I think it must be the model, due to randomization. Therefore the bonus for nurgle would only come into effect if the whole model was nurgle. Similar for a nurgle character in a block of non-nurgle troops.

This is of course avoided if something deliberately targets one or the other, in close combat or with, say, a hochland long rifle. Then the mark/unmark will definitely apply.

GWItheUltimate
24-02-2010, 20:49
Actually you do not pay for the mark on a character's chariot.
The cost of the character's mark coupled with the cost of the character covers the chariot.
Therefore, the subject of an unmarked character on a marked chariot is nugatory.
An unmarked character rides an unmarked chariot.
If the character is marked the chariot bears and benefits from the same mark.

J

Ok then why do they specified that a Character cannot have a different Mark of his chariot is the chariot automatically has the same Mark of the character ?!?!?

That doesn't make sens to me...

Kalandros
24-02-2010, 21:45
Actually you do not pay for the mark on a character's chariot.
The cost of the character's mark coupled with the cost of the character covers the chariot.
Therefore, the subject of an unmarked character on a marked chariot is nugatory.
An unmarked character rides an unmarked chariot.
If the character is marked the chariot bears and benefits from the same mark.

J

That's completely wrong.
If you don't buy the mark for the chariot - you don't have a mark on the chariot.
Your character's Mark is not given to his chariot freely.

Zaustus
25-02-2010, 01:40
I agree with Kalandros. You can mark either the character, the chariot, or both. If you choose to mark both, they must have the same mark. The OP correctly detailed the results of each combination.

Djekar
25-02-2010, 08:31
I was wrong - I was misremembering this:


Q. If a character with the mark of Nurgle joins
a unit without this mark, is shooting against
such a unit also at -1 BS?
A. No, as the firers are not ‘rolling to hit the
model with the Mark of Nurgle’, but rather the
unit.

I can see that it is not directly relevant, but I still agree with Gaargod, that since the entire model doesn't have the MoN, you aren't targeting a model with MoN.

GWItheUltimate
25-02-2010, 13:14
I think a good way to play it would be:

FIRST roll a D6 to see if you shoot at the chariot or the character (1-5 = chariot, 6 = character)... If you rolled 6 (and thus attack the character) and the character has MoN, apply -1 BS to see if you hit him.

Djekar
26-02-2010, 08:42
I think that your proposed method is unsatisfactory because of the changes to Magic Resistance. Hear me out:

There was a huge debate about how magic resistance was applied to spells that affect more than on target, like "all units within X inches", since you don't check range until after the casting/dispelling attempts, and you had to know to know whether or not to roll the MR dice, but the knowing of the range could possibly give you information that you shouldn't have when you make your decision of how many dice to throw.

The debate ended when GW changed magic resistance to include the word "target" or "targeting" which is highly applicable here since this is the very language used in the MoN rule. Now MR no longer affects spells such as "All units within X inches" because such spells do not target the unit with MR.

What does this mean? I believe it means that just because you randomly allocate attacks to the rider of the chariot does not necessitate within the ruleset that you have "targeted" him. Just as my Stone Troll doesn't get it's MR when it's in range of an area spell *even if it subsequently takes damage from that spell*, I believe that your Nurgle character will not benefit from his mark.

Festus
26-02-2010, 10:32
Hi

The monster or chariot are upgrades of the character in Question, not separate entries, so the whole model is marked.

Festus

Djekar
26-02-2010, 12:43
So then why is there the written stipulation that you can't have a chariot with a different mark of it's character rider? That would be needless redundancy if the mark transfered automatically.

That being said, I think that your interpretation is perhaps the most elegant, but I haven't really done any thinking trying to figure out what kind of impact this seemingly innocent change might have in the long run.

GWItheUltimate
26-02-2010, 17:05
Hi

The monster or chariot are upgrades of the character in Question, not separate entries, so the whole model is marked.

Festus

This is just wrong. Go read WoC book again.

Kalandros
27-02-2010, 14:22
Hi

The monster or chariot are upgrades of the character in Question, not separate entries, so the whole model is marked.

Festus

No, the mark is payed for the character, his mount never gets the Mark, they do not ever mention anything about the mount getting the same Mark as the rider, thus the Mount has no Mark unless you can buy one for it separately.

Zarryiosiad
27-02-2010, 15:11
So then why is there the written stipulation that you can't have a chariot with a different mark of it's character rider? That would be needless redundancy if the mark transfered automatically.

This brings up a question that I've had about a character and marked chariot. The WoC list says a character and a chariot can't have different marks, but what if the chariot has the Mark of Slaanesh, and the rider is unmarked? First of all, would that even be legal? And second, if it is legal, would the character still benefit from the Immunity to Psychology granted to the chariot?

Zarryiosiad

Kalandros
27-02-2010, 15:31
Its not immune to psychology, the chariot would be immune to fear, terror and panic, but the character wouldn't.

Its one of those odd situations with no clear answer.

And its not illegal for one to not have a mark and the other part to have one, they don't have a different mark, as one does not have a mark at all.