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Mullitron
24-02-2010, 08:16
The recent manticore and zombie dragon threads made me think about the potential of taking a chaos dragon. Has anyone had much experience taking one or fighting one? Are there any suggestions to builds? With their potential to take armor and a strong selection of melee weapons has any tried taking a sorcerer instead of lord?

Havock
24-02-2010, 11:24
Best support dragon the game, second best dragon after the star dragon.

With a level 4 on top, which, if you give the mark of Tzeentch, a runesword, enchanted shield and collar of khorne brings a very viable character to play. With a hefty magic phase and two breath attacks, you don't even have to go for close combat to earn the points back. Although it is more fun that way. Though some may argue that the runesword is redundant, it does boost the hitting power to fighty human lord levels. With a dragon, that's not bad, not bad at all. Above all, it's fun kicking butt and taking names like the warrior mages of ye olde HoC book :p

Skyldig
24-02-2010, 15:16
A complete loser would take the Rending sword, arguing that it does apply for both spells and melee.


Ahem, I think a Chaos lord is a better choice for a dragon rider than the sorcerer who just wants to avoid trouble, which they can do on discs or steeds. Tailor the Chaos lord to fight other dragon riders, and off you go.

Mark of Nurgle is Essential. No other mark is worth considering for a dragon.

blackjack
24-02-2010, 15:26
The only problem with the chaos dragon is that all your games hinge on this one 700pt~ unit. If it dies early you are screwed, if it kicks ass all game you win.

BigbyWolf
24-02-2010, 15:28
Mark of Nurgle is Essential. No other mark is worth considering for a dragon.

Not so, mark of Tzeentch is good too, provides good protection to the lord, preventing him getting knocked off the top. Nurgle is ok, but TBH with 6 wounds, T6 and scaly skin the dragon can usually handle himself, and if you're exposing him to excessive shooting, then you're not using him correctly.

OP- I run a MoT Lord on Dragon. Great fun. Works very well with any form of army you choose to run, and at the moment he's fitting in very well with my Knight/ Troll spam army.

Witchblade
24-02-2010, 16:20
A dragon is the only way to make chaos lords competitive.

InquisitorWOC
24-02-2010, 18:21
all very valid points. I do think you get more bang for your points with a lord on a dragon w/ mon rather than archaon because u can fly around and ruin everyones day.

BigbyWolf
24-02-2010, 18:29
A dragon is the only way to make chaos lords competitive.

When I mount mine on a Chaos Steed he usually makes more than his points back...perhaps it's just how you're using it?

riotknight
24-02-2010, 18:56
A dragon is the only way to make chaos lords competitive.

Lord on a Jugger all the way, you're doing it wrong.

blackjack
24-02-2010, 19:21
Seconded A Jugger Lord with Daemon blade and enchanted shield rocks.

Ayliffe
24-02-2010, 23:29
A sorcerer lord on a dragon is much much better than a Chaos lord on one.

Sorcerer lords, with the dragon now become mobile gunships that can tear through close combats or breath weapon/magic/terror bomb the living **** out of the enemy.

Throw Stream of Corruption on your Level 4 Tzeentch sorc with Spell Familiar and Book of secrets. (with another sorc with the puppet to keep him safe) and you have a model with 3 breath weapons, ability to cast flickering fire, another Magic missle (fireball? Fiery Blast?) gateway, and pandemonium in the same turn.

Give him an enchanted shield/collar of khorne and you've got tons of defense on this guy.

Sorc lords on Chaos Dragons are easily the best dragons in the WHFB universe. They can affect the entire table every turn, where as their closest competitor; the star dragon, can only affect one unit reliably.

Another good build is:

Sorc lord
MoS, Level 4, Dragon
Spell Familiar, Crown of everlasting conquest, Book of secrets, Diabolic Splendour.

Witchblade
25-02-2010, 00:56
Seconded A Jugger Lord with Daemon blade and enchanted shield rocks.
This build is tempting, yes, but still very expensive and circumstantial. Something with KB or armour negating weaponry will slay him without any fuss. Worst of all, he has frenzy, so any decent opponent should be able to bait him and deal with him under favourable circumstances (flank his unit, ignore him, out-CR him, assassin, etc.). He's much like a unit of blood knights really: he gets less useful as your opponents get more skilled.

Chaos lords on dragons, on the other hand, are extremely hard to deal with.

riotknight
25-02-2010, 01:31
This build is tempting, yes, but still very expensive and circumstantial. Something with KB or armour negating weaponry will slay him without any fuss. Worst of all, he has frenzy, so any decent opponent should be able to bait him and deal with him under favourable circumstances (flank his unit, ignore him, out-CR him, assassin, etc.). He's much like a unit of blood knights really: he gets less useful as your opponents get more skilled.

Chaos lords on dragons, on the other hand, are extremely hard to deal with.

Poison/Buboes? - Necrotic Phylactery, 10 points and you can't hurt him with any of that stuff. Frenzy is only a liability if you don't have something to screen or take care of baiting units, and if you don't know how to effectively use frenzy as an advantage. This lord has never had an issue getting into combat with the thing i want it too, and I'm not playing bad players, I just bring enough hounds to throw at baiting units. Killing blow sucks, I agree.

Also, the gift that makes your opponent roll an extra dice when fleeing and discard the highest? yeah that works for voluntary fleeing too, so your baited unit might get over run anyways and i may get a re-direct because of it.

On topic however; Chaos Dragons are fun as hell, the L4 of Tzeentch is by far the best option for him though.

Poseidal
25-02-2010, 06:50
Is that true about sophoric musk?

This would be quite useful then, especially if screning hounds have all been killed off.

As for a dragon, what else would be good for a sorcerer combat wise? It seems an awful waste never to get the dragon into combat...

Mullitron
25-02-2010, 07:01
Its nice to see a wide range of answers, shows that not got just one obvious use and thats it (well for a dragon anyway). The answers do make me feel tho as if the caster option is stronger except in big games where your opponent will be taking their own big nasty and your planning on taking it on. So need the extra killing power of a lord to wipe the floor with them.

Unuhexium
25-02-2010, 08:13
Tried both a sorc lord and a normal lord. Right now I feel a normal lord creates a better synergy because a sorc lord can't take on big killy things from other armies, If I'd take a sorc lord I'd use him to clear the table of any ranked unit without a fighty lord in it. Remember, you can no cast into a melee, but out of works fine so just get stuck in and use your opponent's stubborn elite infantry as a "human?" shield from all that artillery and magic missiles.

Skyldig
25-02-2010, 10:19
Not so, mark of Tzeentch is good too, provides good protection to the lord, preventing him getting knocked off the top. Nurgle is ok, but TBH with 6 wounds, T6 and scaly skin the dragon can usually handle himself, and if you're exposing him to excessive shooting, then you're not using him correctly.

OP- I run a MoT Lord on Dragon. Great fun. Works very well with any form of army you choose to run, and at the moment he's fitting in very well with my Knight/ Troll spam army.

If you buy a dragon, you want to kill the big stuff. Everything else is overkill.

When facing big nasties, people correctly assume that it's easier to kill the dragon than the rider. Mark of Nurgle helps against BS shooting for the WHOLE model (i.e., boltthrowers), no other mark does this.

In combat, people aim the attacks against the dragon. He has WS6. With mark of nurgle he effectively gets Ws7. What else have Ws7? Elven lords and star dragons for one, and getting them to hit on 4's instead of 3's is WAY better statistically than a 6+ ward save for the rider alone.


The issue is that the Mark of Nurgle is BETTER than anything else if you take a mark. If you don't take a mark, you save points. However, for the additional benefits to an expensive model, I would say that the Mark of Nurgle is worth it.

Tzeentch? Only for the collar. Khorne? No way in hell. Slaanesh? So redundant. Nurgle? Great value against shooting and other dragons. Which incidentally is what worries the dragon the most.

BigbyWolf
25-02-2010, 13:40
If you buy a dragon, you want to kill the big stuff. Everything else is overkill.

When facing big nasties, people correctly assume that it's easier to kill the dragon than the rider. Mark of Nurgle helps against BS shooting for the WHOLE model (i.e., boltthrowers), no other mark does this.

In combat, people aim the attacks against the dragon. He has WS6. With mark of nurgle he effectively gets Ws7. What else have Ws7? Elven lords and star dragons for one, and getting them to hit on 4's instead of 3's is WAY better statistically than a 6+ ward save for the rider alone.


The issue is that the Mark of Nurgle is BETTER than anything else if you take a mark. If you don't take a mark, you save points. However, for the additional benefits to an expensive model, I would say that the Mark of Nurgle is worth it.

Tzeentch? Only for the collar. Khorne? No way in hell. Slaanesh? So redundant. Nurgle? Great value against shooting and other dragons. Which incidentally is what worries the dragon the most.

Collar/ Talisman is why I take it, and like I said, it works fine. Also it fits with my army, and if your running a mono-Tzeentch army, I'd have to say that Nurgle is probably not the best Mark ot take. But army comp aside, I still favour the MoT.

As for raising the WS with MoN...tbh WS is one of the weaker points of combat, and like I said, I'd prefer my Lord (and therfore obviously my General) to be better protected than his dragon.

Neither have died yet in the games where I've used them. The only major benefit for taking Nurgle would be vs the shooting, and as I stated previously, I don't expose him to protracted shooting, so see no need to take it.

To be perfectly honest, I think the MoT is better, and there's nothing that would change that. Likewise you vote for the MoN, which is fine. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

Waaagh Grignak
25-02-2010, 17:38
I run a LvL4 MoT Sorcerer with Infernal Puppet, Collar of Khorne, Dispel scroll, Enchanted Shield, Diabolic Splendour and Acid Ichor.

I use it mainly for the 2 breaths and magic to destry enemy units 1 at a time. The -1LD on the terror tests helps when he jumps into the middle of the enemy army and infernal puppet makes the magic phase interesting :)

Ayliffe
26-02-2010, 03:12
I run a LvL4 MoT Sorcerer with Infernal Puppet, Collar of Khorne, Dispel scroll, Enchanted Shield, Diabolic Splendour and Acid Ichor.

I use it mainly for the 2 breaths and magic to destry enemy units 1 at a time. The -1LD on the terror tests helps when he jumps into the middle of the enemy army and infernal puppet makes the magic phase interesting :)

Better yet, Lvl 4, MoT, Book of Secrets, Spell Fam, Collar of Khorne, Armour of Morslieb, Stream of Corruption.

Run another Sorc, Level 2, MoT, Infernal Puppet, Talisman of Protection, Disc.