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Ultimate Life Form
24-02-2010, 09:28
I know I'm probably thinking too much into it, but I would still be grateful for a few clarifications because I want to field one to see how he fares. The main reason why I'm inquiring is because I remember a number of threads on the topic of DE Assassins and Poison, and how it was a bit confusing for me. I know they are different armies and cannot be compared, but I still need to know for sure, so here are a few questions:

1.) Does the Assassin lose his Poisoned Attacks when he uses a Magic Weapon?

2.) Are his ranged attacks poisoned as well (I remember a discussion on the DE Assassin here; not sure what it was about)?

3.) Where do the Tail Weapon and the Rat Hound Bodyguard fit in? Are they poisoned as well (because as far as I remember they say the model makes an additional attack)?

theunwantedbeing
24-02-2010, 10:12
1. Yes he does.
2. No, only close combat attacks.(DE ones are stated to work on ranged weapons as well)
3. Tail weapons get poison, rat hound bodyguard do not.

Note I'm just assuming he has the poisoned attacks ability from the scavenge-pile as standard. Which makes the whole rules answering process very easy as its quite clear on the effects in its rules.

These questions probably exist in some giant FAQ thread for skaven somewhere.

Ultimate Life Form
24-02-2010, 10:17
Note I'm just assuming he has the poisoned attacks ability from the scavenge-pile as standard. Which makes the whole rules answering process very easy as its quite clear on the effects in its rules.


Ah, yes, that could be. I always skipped that entry, thinking 'I don't need to buy that, he already got Poisoned Attacks'. Which is confusing as the Assassin's Poisoned Attacks are listed as a Special Rule of his while the Poisoned Attacks upgrade would actually be an equipment, no? So I took it as the standard 'Poison' rule.

Oh well, thanks for the answer anyway.

Leth Shyish'phak
24-02-2010, 13:21
1. Yes he does.
2. No, only close combat attacks.(DE ones are stated to work on ranged weapons as well)
3. Tail weapons get poison, rat hound bodyguard do not.

Note I'm just assuming he has the poisoned attacks ability from the scavenge-pile as standard. Which makes the whole rules answering process very easy as its quite clear on the effects in its rules.

These questions probably exist in some giant FAQ thread for skaven somewhere.

The Skaven assassin comes with "normal" poisoned attacks, the restrictions from the scavenge pile one don't apply. So he wouldn't lose them with a magic weapon or rat hound.

Don't know about the ranged attacks though, my main rulebook has vanished. :shifty: So if the rules for poison in the main book say they don't effect ranged attacks then he doesn't get them, otherwise he does.

Yellow Commissar
24-02-2010, 13:36
2.) Are his ranged attacks poisoned as well (I remember a discussion on the DE Assassin here; not sure what it was about)?

The Skaven entry is unclear here. It is supposed to clarify if the poison attacks effect close combat, shooting, or both. Since it doesn't, you have to agree with your opponent. I allow my friends to use both close combat and shooting since the Assassin comes with both.

Magic weopons ignore special rules that apply to normal weopons, so I believe a magic weopon would not gain poison.

I don't have my Skaven AB handy, so I won't comment further, as I can't say for sure.

Haravikk
24-02-2010, 14:19
I would assume it affects both; the models after all have poison dripping from at least one of the throwing stars displayed on it.

Rules-wise it isn't too clear, but if the Dark Elf Assassin gets poisoned ranged attacks then I expect the Skaven Assassin is supposed to as they play in much the same way, and the Skaven Assassin is actually more expensive (due to his ward save mainly I think?)

Leth Shyish'phak
25-02-2010, 16:23
Magic weopons ignore special rules that apply to normal weopons,


Only in that they don't count as halberds, great weapons, etc unless it says so.

Nurgling Chieftain
25-02-2010, 16:37
The Skaven assassin comes with "normal" poisoned attacks, the restrictions from the scavenge pile one don't apply.Always take a reference to be internal before checking for external references. The assassin's Poisoned Attacks should be taken to refer to the scavenge pile item of that name, as it's in the same book, before being taken to be a reference to something in the main rulebook.

...Also, it means questions like this can be answered, while otherwise questions about whether it applies to CC and/or shooting are unanswerable, as the rulebook tells you to refer to the army book!

Third, I am quite certain that nobody in GW sat down and decided that Skaven assassins, unlike every other model in every other army book, can combine their Poisoned Attacks with any purchased magic weapon. Assuming that combination as a "rules default" is the very definition of an Easter Egg hunt.


...as the Assassin's Poisoned Attacks are listed as a Special Rule of his while the Poisoned Attacks upgrade would actually be an equipment, no?Not necessarily, no. Do not get caught up in expecting GW to be entirely consistent about little details like that! Certainly it doesn't assume the force of a rule, as it's something you're assuming, not something stated anywhere.

decker_cky
25-02-2010, 17:39
I see it the opposite way. The special rule "Poisoned attacks" isn't a scavenge pile item. Therefore because there isn't the exception that other books have, the poisoned attacks work with magic weapons. And they work on both ranged and close combat attacks.

Ultimate Life Form
25-02-2010, 18:21
Argh...

You guys aren't any help. :cries:

Haravikk
25-02-2010, 18:23
I agree with decker; it's listed as a special rule, and the scavenge pile one is an item. Really I think the scavenge pile item is badly worded (as a lot of things in the book are), and should have been called something like "Clan Eshin Poisons" or whatever, as it's just confusing the way it is.

I'd also expect the poisoned attacks to apply to equipment the assassin uses, as it's a rule of the assassin rather than an attribute of his equipment.

Nurgling Chieftain
25-02-2010, 19:10
The special rule "Poisoned attacks" isn't a scavenge pile item.
...it's listed as a special rule, and the scavenge pile one is an item.This is an assumption with no basis in the rules, which literally breaks the rules in one respect and introduces an obvious Easter Egg in another respect. I see no reason to make such a radical assumption on such a flimsy basis.

There is another, perfectly valid "assumption" with significant basis in the rules: the "Poisoned Attacks" in the scavenge pile is regarded as a "special rule" rather than an "item". There are several reasons to think this is correct, not least of which is that in fluff terms it's not really an "item" and in rules terms it acts as a special rule rather than a weapon in its own right.


Really I think the scavenge pile item is badly worded (as a lot of things in the book are), and should have been called something like "Clan Eshin Poisons" or whatever, as it's just confusing the way it is.Yes, using the same name for a (somewhat) distinct rule was a mistake.

theunwantedbeing
25-02-2010, 19:22
I only chose to go off the scavenge pile list rules as its a nice easy solution within the skaven book.

Plus the rulebook says to look at the relevant armybook for details of whether its the combat and/or shooting phase. The skaven book doesnt state which in the skaven assasin entries, so we go off the other "poisoned attacks" rule in the skaven book.

Unlike the dark elf book which clearly states what gets poison.

Agoz
25-02-2010, 20:16
This is an assumption with no basis in the rules, which literally breaks the rules in one respect and introduces an obvious Easter Egg in another respect. I see no reason to make such a radical assumption on such a flimsy basis.

There is another, perfectly valid "assumption" with significant basis in the rules: the "Poisoned Attacks" in the scavenge pile is regarded as a "special rule" rather than an "item". There are several reasons to think this is correct, not least of which is that in fluff terms it's not really an "item" and in rules terms it acts as a special rule rather than a weapon in its own right.

Yes, using the same name for a (somewhat) distinct rule was a mistake.

but other scavenge pile items are listed as equipment in the units profile, for example Tretch Craventail has Tail blade in his equipment, not in his special rules. And Ikit claw has a warplock pistol in his equipment. This would lead me to believe all of the scavenge pile items should be listed under equipment. But the assassin's poison attacks are not, and in my opinion refer to the special rule in that case.

WarhammerNoob4ever
25-02-2010, 20:31
Im not sure how the assumption that the Assassin has a piece of special equipment that other characters have to pay for, is an easier assumption than he has a universal special rule, thats discussed in the BRB and is listed under other characters special rules as is his........ could you please explain that?

Yes its unfortunate that this causes more problems than just following the poison attacks listed under the scavenge pile but just because something cause less problems than something else doesnt make it the GW answer...... (if anything, it would argue in the opposite direction :D).

Grimgormx
25-02-2010, 23:15
Does the rule say "poisoned attacks"? if yes, then only attacks has poison, how many attacks has it? then all its attacks have poison.

I dont have that book, but maybe if the rule saids "poisoned weapons" then I would think all his normal weapons (ranged and CC) would have poison, I dont see why a magic weapon wielded by a skaven assasin would have the poisoned rule added, BO that use a magic weapon cant use the rule armed to the theeft.

Agoz
26-02-2010, 00:16
it just says poisoned attacks, it doesn't reference any weapons

Sooty13
18-03-2010, 22:27
The assassin would loose his poisoned attacks if he carries a magic weapon.
His range attacks are also poisened. it makes no desinction in the rule book as close combat only. (Skink blow pipe). its auto wound on a hit role of a 6. He is an assassin, why wouldnt they be poisned. Also I believe his tail attack would also be poisened without purchasing the skavenge pile poisoned attacks. why would an assassin only poison some two out of three blades. Agan Common sense and spirit of the game please

decker_cky
18-03-2010, 22:36
Poisoned attacks isn't a property of a weapon, it's a property of the assassin. Much like a DE character with a magic weapon would get armour piercing attacks if they got them from the armour piercing banner.

Tail weapon would be poisoned too. So would a rat hound.

Ultimate Life Form
18-03-2010, 22:45
Well, we have the FAQ now, saying it is indeed normal Poison as I assumed. Still good to know for sure.

So all that remains is the question, would he get Poison with a Magic Weapon or no? I'm sure it must be somewhere in the rules, but I can't think of where to look... Page please?

decker_cky
18-03-2010, 23:06
Nothing in the rules that would prevent poison from working with a magic weapon. You'd need a page reference for why it wouldn't apply, and there isn't one.

Nurgling Chieftain
18-03-2010, 23:48
So all that remains is the question, would he get Poison with a Magic Weapon or no?Yes, unlike every other poison-carrying hero in the entire ruleset, because some idiot FAQ writer decided to exclude the rules in the codex from applying to itself. :rolleyes:

decker_cky
18-03-2010, 23:49
I like to think of it as being planned. It almost makes an assassin with a magical weapon worth taking!

Nurgling Chieftain
19-03-2010, 03:49
I like to think of it as being planned.Planned things like that are stated up front, not dropped out of their own rules by subsequent fiat. I mean, the FAQ says what the FAQ says, but don't kid yourself that somebody sat down and made that decision, even for the FAQ.

Kevlar
19-03-2010, 04:16
I dont see why a magic weapon wielded by a skaven assasin would have the poisoned rule added, BO that use a magic weapon cant use the rule armed to the theeft.

The magic weapon rule prohibits you from using a mundane weapon over a magic weapon. It does not prevent you from using other abilities in addition to the magic weapon.

A black ork in combat with say a blood thirster with obsidian armor would be able to use his armed to the teef to grab a mundane two handed sword in place of his now mundane magic sword. So he doesn't really lose his special rule, he is just restricted by a different rule.

Sooty13
19-03-2010, 20:55
The rule says " magic weapons always ignore any special rules that apply to an ordinary weapon of the same type unless otherwise specicfied in the desctiption of the weapon". There for as it is his mundane weapons that are poisoned ie.the blades covered in it then a magical weapon will NOT be poisoned. Its a trade off im afraid.

decker_cky
19-03-2010, 21:12
Poisoned attacks isn't a rule of a weapon. It's a special rule applying to all of the assassin's attacks. Same as a banner giving armour piercing to attacks.

That rule's talking about great weapons adding +2 strength and striking last, hand weapons providing extra save when combined with a shield, lances providing +2 strength on the charge and other similar rules of the weapons.

Agoz
21-03-2010, 06:39
Right, the assassin doesn't have a poisoned hand weapon, he just has poisoned attacks in general, so it would affect any of his attacks.

knauden
21-03-2010, 13:13
1: No

2: Yes "page 95: A warrior with poisoned attacks will wound his target automatically if he scores a 6 when rolling to hit in either the shooting or the close combat phase, or sometimes both(see the models entry for more info.)"

3: yes

Cambion Daystar
22-03-2010, 17:25
1: No

2: Yes "page 95: A warrior with poisoned attacks will wound his target automatically if he scores a 6 when rolling to hit in either the shooting or the close combat phase, or sometimes both(see the models entry for more info.)"

3: yes

Please try answering 1 and 3 more like you answered number 2.

decker_cky
22-03-2010, 23:10
Please try answering 1 and 3 more like you answered number 2.

1: No "page 95: A warrior with poisoned attacks will wound his target automatically if he scores a 6 when rolling to hit in either the shooting or the close combat phase, or sometimes both(see the models entry for more info.)"

2: Yes "page 95: A warrior with poisoned attacks will wound his target automatically if he scores a 6 when rolling to hit in either the shooting or the close combat phase, or sometimes both(see the models entry for more info.)"

3: yes "page 95: A warrior with poisoned attacks will wound his target automatically if he scores a 6 when rolling to hit in either the shooting or the close combat phase, or sometimes both(see the models entry for more info.)"

The quote he gave there is the relevant quote for all three question. :D

stripsteak
23-03-2010, 15:34
Yes, unlike every other poison-carrying hero in the entire ruleset, because some idiot FAQ writer decided to exclude the rules in the codex from applying to itself. :rolleyes:

I think the assassin is fairly unique. The list of characters with poisoned attacks is pretty short. the other characters that do have it, unless i missed someone, don't have (or have access to) to magic weapons.

herald of nurgle, great unclean one - deamonic gifts.
de assassin - no magic weapon access
death hag - no magic weapon access
lizardmen - jungle poison
wow...that list was shorter then i expected. beastmen characters? i haven't seen there new book

Harwammer
23-03-2010, 15:47
goblin big boss 1) spider banner (goblins in the unit have poison melee/range)
goblin big boss 2) any magic weapon
Place both in the same unit for magic poison attacks I think.

TheDarkDaff
23-03-2010, 22:11
I think the assassin is fairly unique. The list of characters with poisoned attacks is pretty short. the other characters that do have it, unless i missed someone, don't have (or have access to) to magic weapons.

herald of nurgle, great unclean one - deamonic gifts.
de assassin - no magic weapon access
death hag - no magic weapon access
lizardmen - jungle poison
wow...that list was shorter then i expected. beastmen characters? i haven't seen there new book

Your DE examples are wrong. The Death Hag doesn't have access to the Poison rule (she can get the Toxin's, but none of them confer the "poison" rule) and the Assassin does have access to a magic weapon in the form of the Venom Sword. What make the DE Assassin stand out is that he has a rule in his entry that specifies only his Hand weapon and Handbow have poisoned attacks. The other Toxin's replace the poison rule but also coat all his weapons (So Rending Stars are not poisoned but get the effects of the other toxin's).

This is what they should have done with the Skaven Assassin (i.e. specify exactly what has poison attacks) but they didn't. I shudder to think that Matt Ward will be allowed near other armybooks as the guy has no idea how the rules interact with each other (as opposed to Alessio's blatant favouritism for his pet army's).

decker_cky
23-03-2010, 22:45
Matt Ward wasn't involved with Skaven or Dark Elves was he? I'm all for Matt Ward attacks....but that was out of nowhere.

Palatine Katinka
23-03-2010, 22:57
Your DE examples are wrong. The Death Hag doesn't have access to the Poison rule (she can get the Toxin's, but none of them confer the "poison" rule)

The Death Hag has Poisoned Attacks as standard, just like any other Witch Elf. She still can't get any magic weapons though.

TheDarkDaff
23-03-2010, 23:35
Matt Ward wasn't involved with Skaven or Dark Elves was he? I'm all for Matt Ward attacks....but that was out of nowhere.

My bad. I thought Matt Ward was the author of the Skaven Armybook. It would have explained all the issues with the wording. Gav T did the Dark Elves and it really doesn't have too many glaring problems (especially with the wording of it's rules), it's issues are more about the undercosting of certain units and the synergy that can be created.

I retract my statement about the Death Hag. I blame my newly acquired stray cockatiel.

Ultimate Life Form
24-03-2010, 02:40
It appears save to assume that these days no matter who writes an army book it will end in a disaster.