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Wolfblade670
25-02-2010, 05:16
How do you think the Adeptus Astartes would fare against Heinlein's original Mobile Infantry? Straight up fight, both sides being relatively equal in numbers and without orbital support (the Astartes can bring their tanks). Personally, my money's on the apes.

Firaxin
25-02-2010, 05:26
In straight up, last man standing style? Probably the marines.

Anything else, the MI.

Iuris
25-02-2010, 06:20
Which one of the two has tactical nukes again? (P.S. with orders not to come back with ammo unspent )

Marshal Argos
25-02-2010, 06:35
MI every time. Think about it, they carry tactical nukes just drop a couple of nukes in the area and bounce away. Do this until the marines are dead then kickback and wait for round 2.

Griffindale
25-02-2010, 06:47
Who has air superiority? :D

aim
25-02-2010, 07:12
Take it we arent talking the panzy movie version MI? I'd give it to the Apes.... just not in H2H heh

N0-1_H3r3
25-02-2010, 17:50
Which ever one deploys from orbit second dies. Mobile Infantry really don't seem to be set up for the sort of close-quarters brutality that the Astartes excel at, while the Astartes are generally hindered by operating at long range... so if the Marines land first, the MI land some distance away and commence with tactical nuking... but if the MI land first, the Marines land at close range (where nuclear weapons are a liability, not an asset) and butcher the MI (who are, at this point, well-armed, well-armoured human beings).

Condottiere
25-02-2010, 18:14
On the plus side, it's the suits that need to be manufactured, not the MI; you can have as many MI as you have the industrial capacity to produce the suits and train the men. At most, there may be a million SMs wandering around.

spetswalshe
25-02-2010, 19:29
If we're taking a background view of the Space Marines, then they should be all but immune to MI weapons like flamethrowers and the heat/radiation of a tactical nuke. I can't remember if the MI had conventional weaponry analogus to the Marine boltgun - but it seems to me a bolt round would be the best weapon against both Marine armour and MI armour. Assuming they do have some kind of high-explosive weapon, and assuming equal numbers, the MI would probably still win out, on the basis of manuverability (everyone having a jetpack). Though like others have said, it seems as though the Space Marines would wipe the floor in close-combat, having both the correct training and specialised CC weapons.

Again, I can't remember the novel, but if the tactical nuclear weapons are akin to the film version - direct-fire rockets or similar - then they wouldn't be the end-all weapon in a fight against Marines; only the direct blast would trouble them, and things like Whirlwinds and Thunderfire cannons more than make up for it.

All of the above assumes things like Terminators and Dreadnoughts aren't available - likewise, it assumes MI don't have tanks of their own.

Col. Dash
25-02-2010, 21:43
MI, come on, they deploy a half a klick from each other to keep from damaging each other in their big heavy suits. They would Rick-roll the space marines. By the way I am refering to the Heinlien book MI not the cartoon or topless-Diz movie.

Master Jeridian
25-02-2010, 22:03
It's always a subjective discussion comparing Star Trek to Star Wars, etc.

But I have to side with Mobile Infantry.

Each one is a slightly smaller SM Dreadnought, with Tau Jet Packs and Tactical Nukes as their 'ace in the hole' weapon, with various other weapon systems each.

As Dash says, they do indeed fight individually with half a mile between each suit, because they can dominate that much area.

They are the true walking tanks that the Space Marines meekly immitate.

The problem comes with close combat, the 40k universe lives in a bizarre reality bubble where carrying a chainsaw is more effective than shooting someone from half a mile away. The 'rugby scrums' or Napoleonic style bayonet charges 40k does so often frankly became extremely rare and extremely costly with the invention of the machine gun, and later the rapid firing assault rifle.

So which universe does this fight take place in, I would argue the Mobile Infantry universe is a lot closer to our own in terms of technology and the feasible military doctine of sci-fi.

Basically GW's 40k universe is Fantasy Battles with a few guns thrown in (well, it's meant to be- it's a mod of the Fantasy ruleset anyway) and the background has been grown after this has been set whilst Starship Troopers has put rational thought into how technologies like powered jetpack battlesuits and tactical nukes could function in future war (in the same way Guderian and others put rational thought into how the WW1 armoured tanks could function in future wars).

So basically, a Space Marine should never get to use his chainsaw. A Mobile Infantry suit should detect him a mile away, target half a mile, aim rockets or if necessary low yield tactical nukes and blow him away. If somehow he gets within a quarter of a mile, the suit jets into the air and flies another mile away- continue.

I'm trying not to be a Starship Troopers fanboy but they really are a cross between a tank in toughness, an attack helicopter in mobility and an armoured battle suit in flexibility.

Condottiere
25-02-2010, 22:11
... or topless-Diz movie.Knowing Heinlein, he would have approved.

They had micro nukes, IIRC. And those things were dangerous enough that during a training exercise, Rico gets called on the carpet when he fires one off without checking where his team mates were.

DapperAnarchist
25-02-2010, 23:18
People knock that movie, without understanding what it is...

1) it really doesn't have anything to do with ST - it was originally just called Bugs, and the title and names were only added after someone pointed out the similarity to ST.

2) Its a satire. A rather odd one, but still. Its a satire on propaganda (Would You Like To Learn More?), military "heroism" (Mobile Infantry made me the man I am today! - all veterans in the movie have at least one missing limb) and racial profiling in wars (the Bugs never start the attack, its always the humans, but the news and politicians frame it as the horrible Bugs attacking innocent [expansionist] humans)...

Kage2020
26-02-2010, 01:30
I love that movie for just those reasons. :D

On my behalf, as much as it means anything in these "versus" threads, I vote for the MI. Marines are going to ace the hand to hand combat, and it just becomes a matter whether Marine weapons can get through MI armour. If they can, and they can close, then it's MI slice 'n' dice. :D

Kage

Master Jeridian
26-02-2010, 01:55
I'm not so sure about close quarters.

The majority of Marines have their Bolter and perhaps a combat knife.
The MI suit is still a walking battle tank, it's pilot is likely to be heavily protected (not least from the radiation he keeps unleashing) and the powered armour suit is likely to be heavy, strong and powerful.
Consider Tau battlesuits versus Marines with Bolters. The knee-jerk is for Marines to win- but they wouldn't.

When you bring in Power Fists, Power Swords and Chainswords (assuming they weren't ridiculous) the Marines become hand-to-hand supremos and could cut up the MI suit with ease. But the average Space Marine doesn't carry these.

Victrix
26-02-2010, 08:12
Why are we even describing close-quarters combat when it's been established these guys have jetpacks and typically stay above ground? Good God.

tezdal
26-02-2010, 12:35
MI, Nukes pwn chainsaws

Kage2020
26-02-2010, 12:47
The fundamental problem with this type of "versus" thread is that it is trying to compare two completely different fictional universes. You don't know anything about the relative protecting properties of the two armour, the damaging potential of the weapons, etc. It doesn't help that one is fantasy and the other sci-fi... :D

Kage

spetswalshe
26-02-2010, 12:54
Marines also have krak grenades. Slap one of them on an MI and it's a hole in one.

I'd suggest that the 'half a klick' deployment is probably because their opponents in the novel aren't nearly as hard as Marines. Like I said, I can't remember the book much, but I don't remember them coming up against any kind of powered armour - indeed, any real armour at all. They're used to simply walking around (flying around) trashing the place. The Arachnid guns seem like they'd be pretty nasty, but with no armour to back them up they're no more threatening that a squad of Guard. It'd make a lot more sense for MI fighting Marines to support each other as closely as possible; otherwise, a squad of Marines just has to take them out one-by-one. A single flying battlesuit isn't going to prove that much of a problem to an entire squad (particularly if they're packing a heavy/special weapon), but two would up the game by about 200%.

When it comes to detecting each other, MI and Marines would be pretty similar. An MI suit has scanners all over the place, but so does a Terminator suit.

puppetmaster24
26-02-2010, 12:58
I hate vurses threads.

(puts head in hands) "make them go away"

Wolfblade670
27-02-2010, 07:05
The fundamental problem with this type of "versus" thread is that it is trying to compare two completely different fictional universes. You don't know anything about the relative protecting properties of the two armour, the damaging potential of the weapons, etc. It doesn't help that one is fantasy and the other sci-fi... :D

Kage

It will take more than logic to stop me. :D

Victrix
27-02-2010, 07:57
One is fantasy?

And no, I think the Warhammer fanboys are getting confused.

Let's pretend they're lobbing, say, 1KT nukes. That's still vaporizing several miles.

It's pretty unfair, and it's not a matter of skill, but it gets the job done. Nuke > Bolter/Melta/Multilaser (The Goto kind)/Autogun/Lascannon, etc.

Firaxin
27-02-2010, 08:41
Not really. Most of the damage caused by a nuke is from its heat/shockwave/radiation. All of which would do nothing to a marine. It would take practically a direct hit from a nuke to kill a marine.

Master Jeridian
27-02-2010, 10:47
I think you've got an overinflated sense of Space Marine resistance.

They can survive the heat and shockwave of a nuclear explosion....only if they get in a fridge I suppose.

The heat is enough to vapourise solid objects, the shockwave is enough to rip arms and legs from bodies and fling the bits hundreds of metres.

Condottiere
27-02-2010, 10:52
I'd forgotten about the fridge.

MacMortal
28-02-2010, 04:26
for me MI. I read the book many years ago and saw space marine, my first thoughts were of the book. And then I saw the movie and cried. "I wanted to kill the director for butchering that book". Plus MI moves way too fast across the battle field.

MetalGecko23
28-02-2010, 05:13
Not really. Most of the damage caused by a nuke is from its heat/shockwave/radiation. All of which would do nothing to a marine. It would take practically a direct hit from a nuke to kill a marine.
AAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHH...........no.


for me MI. I read the book many years ago and saw space marine, my first thoughts were of the book. And then I saw the movie and cried. "I wanted to kill the director for butchering that book". Plus MI moves way too fast across the battle field.
I defense of the movie (which I liked). It wasn't a Starship Troopers movie. The name was tagged on it because the studio wanted a name that people could recognize. The movie was mostly a satire of sci-fi movies and books in general, the director didn't even know what Starship Troopers was. Though it did end up being a hilarious parody of the book in so many ways.
Its just better to think of them as just sharing the same name and plot, but are otherwise unrelated. It makes the movie a lot better and it doesn't hurt to think of it as a comedy.

It think the MI would have some issues against marines but probably could win most of the time. If I think back to the book the MI did send only a few hunderd to the bug planet and they did at one point get into a hand to hand fight against the bugs and win. Also the MI have the power of science behind them. The Space Marines don't get new MI killing weapons were as the MI would quickly get weapons designed to kill marines more effectively. So my vote goes to the MI.

DarkMatter2
28-02-2010, 15:22
for me MI. I read the book many years ago and saw space marine, my first thoughts were of the book. And then I saw the movie and cried. "I wanted to kill the director for butchering that book". Plus MI moves way too fast across the battle field.

The director was not trying to make a faithful adaptation. He was satirizing the book's political philosophy and self-seriousness.

Condottiere
28-02-2010, 16:03
A satire of a satire; though I found the incessant linking for information too real to life.

DapperAnarchist
28-02-2010, 16:31
I was under the impression Heinlein really meant Starship Troopers - it was an anti-pacifist movement "juvenile" novel...

Paul Verhoven is a misunderstood satirical genius. Probably why he gave up on it, and now makes emotionally torturous WWII spy dramas...

But - honestly, book MI vs Space Marines, the MI do seem to have the edge.

What about Nids vs Bugs? I say it depends on who's the defender - the Bugs (least in the movie) have plasma weapons for shooting down starships, and so stand an ok chance in defence (though only against a smallish fleet, as their whole combat style is immensely open to copying by the Nids, as its all biological), and the Nids would be screwed in defence against the rather clever Bugs (hit them with a comet! That'll show them...) Though the Bugs would, as in defence, need to keep their distance or find they're now fighting themselves.

GodofWarTx
28-02-2010, 23:09
He didnt even finish reading the book, he just decided he was going to make a movie on his reaction so far. Im sorry, but that ranks as among the worse habits a director can make. Can you imagine if Peter Jackson just did LOTR with that kind of nonchalant attitude? He even said he put down the novel because he was "bored with it". Awesome choice to direct a movie on the subject matter. That would be like me directing the next Sex and the City movie.

I feel the closest thing in the warhammer universe to the MI would be the Tau Empire Fire Caste. The avoidance of close combat, the high technology and impressive fighting prowess of the suits combined with their cooperative fighting style would be comperable to the MI. Its entirely possible the Marines would be more mobile than the MI with the use of thunderhawks, Land Raiders, and teleportation.

I think a lot of weight needs to be put on the idea that the Space Marines have been there. They have done that. They have endured for 10,000 years of warfare against a myraid of opponents. The training of the MI is intense, but it compares nothing to the decades long training of a marine. A person in the military of the Terran Fed has to only serve for 2 years. The Marine serves until he dies. There is going to be a definate advantage to the Marines in terms of morale, fighting spirit, tenacity to withstand hardships, and being used to being outnumbered and outgunned.

The Mobile Infantry of the Terran Fed havent been around for too long and have struggled against the archanid menace, which lets agree is far less of a threat than a single tyranid hive splinter.

The mobile infantry have the mini-nuke , but i think a terminator suit of armor could survive that if they can survive plasma weaponry with some success.
I feel Marine armor in the form of Dreadnaughts and especially Land Raiders would be incredibly difficult to counter, even though they are "outmodeled" forms of fighting armor for the Terran Fed.

sabreu
01-03-2010, 00:30
I feel the closest thing in the warhammer universe to the MI would be the Tau Empire Fire Caste. The avoidance of close combat, the high technology and impressive fighting prowess of the suits combined with their cooperative fighting style would be comperable to the MI. Its entirely possible the Marines would be more mobile than the MI with the use of thunderhawks, Land Raiders, and teleportation.

Unsupported from the Imperial Guard or other various factions of the Imperium, and the Marines can't even stand against the Tau (see Taros campaign), at least not current chapter-sized orginisations. Bring in Pre-heresy legions and we can talk serious wars here! :D


I think a lot of weight needs to be put on the idea that the Space Marines have been there. They have done that. They have endured for 10,000 years of warfare against a myraid of opponents. The training of the MI is intense, but it compares nothing to the decades long training of a marine. A person in the military of the Terran Fed has to only serve for 2 years. The Marine serves until he dies. There is going to be a definate advantage to the Marines in terms of morale, fighting spirit, tenacity to withstand hardships, and being used to being outnumbered and outgunned.

Marine training is irrelevant when the MI can use advanced targetting systems that allow him to detect the Marines presence and launch tactical nukes at him. Technology trumps training hands down in real world warfare.


The Mobile Infantry of the Terran Fed havent been around for too long and have struggled against the archanid menace, which lets agree is far less of a threat than a single tyranid hive splinter.

It's debatable really. The Imperium of Man is significantly larger and has more to throw at the Tyranids than the Terran Federation had MI to throw at the Arachnids. Even the battle of Macragge wasn't won solely by Marines either, they had fleet assets and planetary defense forces and were bolstered by neighboring systems that factored heavily in that win and as we know. In comparison of both fictional stories, the Imperium has lost more territory than the Terran Federation has.


The mobile infantry have the mini-nuke , but i think a terminator suit of armor could survive that if they can survive plasma weaponry with some success.

Terminator armor was originally concieved as an exo-suit used to protect their users when working in Plasma-reactors. It's resistent to certain extremes no doubt, but a direct hit from a tactical nuke is still going to obliterate that Terminator like no tommorrow.


I feel Marine armor in the form of Dreadnaughts and especially Land Raiders would be incredibly difficult to counter, even though they are "outmodeled" forms of fighting armor for the Terran Fed.

Dreadnaughts aren't particularly hard to take down by Orks, let alone humans using advanced technology. Land Raiders are also re-purposed colonial vehicles, not actual combat designed vehicles. I just don't see them being any more of a threat than anything else the MI might encounter.

Victrix
01-03-2010, 07:20
Unless Terminator armor can withstand temperatures exponentially hotter than the surface of the sun, or pressures that vaporize miles of solid rock - then no. No, they can not survive a nuke. No unit in all of the Warhammer universe could.

Except Calgar.

GodofWarTx
01-03-2010, 08:01
Unsupported from the Imperial Guard or other various factions of the Imperium, and the Marines can't even stand against the Tau (see Taros campaign), at least not current chapter-sized orginisations. Bring in Pre-heresy legions and we can talk serious wars here! :D



Marine training is irrelevant when the MI can use advanced targetting systems that allow him to detect the Marines presence and launch tactical nukes at him. Technology trumps training hands down in real world warfare.



It's debatable really. The Imperium of Man is significantly larger and has more to throw at the Tyranids than the Terran Federation had MI to throw at the Arachnids. Even the battle of Macragge wasn't won solely by Marines either, they had fleet assets and planetary defense forces and were bolstered by neighboring systems that factored heavily in that win and as we know. In comparison of both fictional stories, the Imperium has lost more territory than the Terran Federation has.



Terminator armor was originally concieved as an exo-suit used to protect their users when working in Plasma-reactors. It's resistent to certain extremes no doubt, but a direct hit from a tactical nuke is still going to obliterate that Terminator like no tommorrow.



Dreadnaughts aren't particularly hard to take down by Orks, let alone humans using advanced technology. Land Raiders are also re-purposed colonial vehicles, not actual combat designed vehicles. I just don't see them being any more of a threat than anything else the MI might encounter.


Unless Terminator armor can withstand temperatures exponentially hotter than the surface of the sun, or pressures that vaporize miles of solid rock - then no. No, they can not survive a nuke. No unit in all of the Warhammer universe could.

Except Calgar.

A very good discussion going here!

I would say that if the Mobile Infantry are assumed to be able to detect the Marines, the reverse is true as well. Fire and Forget salvos of Hunter-Killers would be fired from afar to seek out and destroy the bounding suits.
Or as another option, drop in dozens of Deathwind drop pods from above to thin the numbers of suits or just as good, expend the supply of mini-nukes.



If the notion is that the Mobile Infantry can lob nukes at will, why are we tying our hands with the marines saying they cant utilize their own support systems in the form of Battle Barge Support. They arnt Imperial Navy or Imperial Guard so they fall in line. The Mobile Infantry have to rely on the Terran Navy and dont have any of their own support ships.

I say bombard the mobile infantry from orbit. I dont think a mini nuke would do so well against lance or mass driver batteries firing from orbit, let alone actual bombardment cannons.


I must say i disagree strongly with the assessment that technology will beat training and experience always. An easy historical example would be the Yom Kippor war. The Egyptians had far superior tanks, numbers, and artillery with brand new weapons systems like the revolutionary AT-3 Sagger as well as the element of surprise and the superior training and coordination of the Israeli army defeated them.

Plasma would be as hot as the surface of the sun. Terminator armor also shows resilience to fusion weaponry (not immunity mind you) as well.

I feel a direct hit by mini-nuke would obviously destroy a suit of tactical dreadnaught armor, but the survivability of comrades nearby would be possible. Its not like large scale explosions on that magnitude are unfamiliar to Marines. After all they get to see more devastating firepower from Titans and superheavy weapons systems and reactor explosions on battlefields all the time.

If Land Raiders are too slow and vulnerable to strikes, wings of Land Speeders would be able to engage the suits in hit and run passes.

Condottiere
01-03-2010, 09:59
One on one, the MI is probably is going to lose.

What the Mi has going for it is that they can easily afford attrition against the Marines, since it seems to take forever to train and equip one SM, and they have the means to take the Marines on.

While MI platoons are considered ideal to for raids and badly defended targets, MI forces of half battalions are easily mustered and deployed; anything on a similar scale by the Marines is suddenly a major commitment.

Marshal Argos
01-03-2010, 18:11
A very good discussion going here!

I would say that if the Mobile Infantry are assumed to be able to detect the Marines, the reverse is true as well. Fire and Forget salvos of Hunter-Killers would be fired from afar to seek out and destroy the bounding suits.
Or as another option, drop in dozens of Deathwind drop pods from above to thin the numbers of suits or just as good, expend the supply of mini-nukes.

The problem with this is that when you have an MI suit every mile or couple of miles than can just hop away your just waisting deathwind pods.



If the notion is that the Mobile Infantry can lob nukes at will, why are we tying our hands with the marines saying they cant utilize their own support systems in the form of Battle Barge Support. They arnt Imperial Navy or Imperial Guard so they fall in line. The Mobile Infantry have to rely on the Terran Navy and dont have any of their own support ships.

I say bombard the mobile infantry from orbit. I dont think a mini nuke would do so well against lance or mass driver batteries firing from orbit, let alone actual bombardment cannons.
Because from the very first post until you said something this discussion has been MI vs. Space marines neither side with orbital support. Read the first post again.



I must say i disagree strongly with the assessment that technology will beat training and experience always. An easy historical example would be the Yom Kippor war. The Egyptians had far superior tanks, numbers, and artillery with brand new weapons systems like the revolutionary AT-3 Sagger as well as the element of surprise and the superior training and coordination of the Israeli army defeated them. I thought they were pretty evenly matched in terms of gear... I might have to go back and research that though.


Plasma would be as hot as the surface of the sun. Terminator armor also shows resilience to fusion weaponry (not immunity mind you) as well. And a much shorter range that the mini-nukes and rocket launchers that each MI trooper carried.


I feel a direct hit by mini-nuke would obviously destroy a suit of tactical dreadnaught armor, but the survivability of comrades nearby would be possible. Its not like large scale explosions on that magnitude are unfamiliar to Marines. After all they get to see more devastating firepower from Titans and superheavy weapons systems and reactor explosions on battlefields all the time. Sure, but again the MI is deployed with kilometers between them where as a squad of Termies is relatively close together. I mean even a mini-nuke is going to leave a good 50 meter crater when it detonates, swallowing up a squad of termies.


If Land Raiders are too slow and vulnerable to strikes, wings of Land Speeders would be able to engage the suits in hit and run passes.
And again seeing that were comparing trooper to trooper no outside support I won't even bother with this one.

Marshal Argos
01-03-2010, 18:14
One on one, the MI is probably is going to lose.

What the Mi has going for it is that they can easily afford attrition against the Marines, since it seems to take forever to train and equip one SM, and they have the means to take the Marines on.

While MI platoons are considered ideal to for raids and badly defended targets, MI forces of half battalions are easily mustered and deployed; anything on a similar scale by the Marines is suddenly a major commitment.

What? dude you got one spaceship with one platoon on it for the MI, and they seldom try to do anything in large numbers for fear of loosing larger forces. In the book they mention how you could join the MI and never ever, even meet your company or Battalion commander because he on the other side of the galaxy on a different ship... I can't see how that's easy to be mustered and deployed... Meanwhile in the fluff marines are regularly out there in half companies to companies, depending on the war.

Condottiere
01-03-2010, 20:36
Carrying six-platoons, Tours is roomy. Yet it can speedily deliver men anywhere in Federation space and much of Bug space. The MI prefers corvettes to the massive transports the Navy favors. Tours is a mixed (and sexually-segregated) ship, with 15 naval officers (eight female). The MI has eight officers, including Rico. The Skipper is president of the mess, and MI Capt. Blackstone is vice-president. Meals are formal, with seating by declining rank down each side of the table; thus, lowly Rico finds himself beside Capt. Jorgenson, whom he is expected to seat. When she rises, the meal is over, but Blackstone obtains an exemption for his men. Jorgenson personally supervises Rico's math homework every day.

Blackstone wears two hats, commanding the six MI platoons aboard the Tours and his own Company D ...

Partial summary of chapter 13

sabreu
02-03-2010, 00:54
A very good discussion going here!

This is what makes nerding out fun! :p


I would say that if the Mobile Infantry are assumed to be able to detect the Marines, the reverse is true as well. Fire and Forget salvos of Hunter-Killers would be fired from afar to seek out and destroy the bounding suits.
Or as another option, drop in dozens of Deathwind drop pods from above to thin the numbers of suits or just as good, expend the supply of mini-nukes.

Never discounted the reverse of my statement. Hunter-killers would be a very good asset in the Astartes defense, with their potential limited by the size of the chapter itself which is what really hamstrings the Astartes in this scenario. Chapter sized orginisations just don't have enough personel and vehicles to make Hunter-Killers a long term viable option. Forcing the Mobile Infantry to expend their arsenal of mini-nukes would be highly improbable, as the Mobile Infantry will outnumber the chapter tremendously.


If the notion is that the Mobile Infantry can lob nukes at will, why are we tying our hands with the marines saying they cant utilize their own support systems in the form of Battle Barge Support. They arnt Imperial Navy or Imperial Guard so they fall in line. The Mobile Infantry have to rely on the Terran Navy and dont have any of their own support ships.

Right now, as stated earlier, we are focusing on the ground forces of the Astartes and Mobile Infantry. Obviously, the Mobile Infantry on it's own would be no match to the Astartes space power without the aide of the Navy.


I say bombard the mobile infantry from orbit. I dont think a mini nuke would do so well against lance or mass driver batteries firing from orbit, let alone actual bombardment cannons.

The Mobile Infantry would have no counter to this, as aerial and space combat is solely the domain of the Navy.


I must say i disagree strongly with the assessment that technology will beat training and experience always. An easy historical example would be the Yom Kippor war. The Egyptians had far superior tanks, numbers, and artillery with brand new weapons systems like the revolutionary AT-3 Sagger as well as the element of surprise and the superior training and coordination of the Israeli army defeated them.

I find this is the classic exception to the rule, not really evidence of training trumping technology. Otherwise, the invention of reliable rifles would not have marked the end of fighting with swords and shields.


I feel a direct hit by mini-nuke would obviously destroy a suit of tactical dreadnaught armor, but the survivability of comrades nearby would be possible. Its not like large scale explosions on that magnitude are unfamiliar to Marines. After all they get to see more devastating firepower from Titans and superheavy weapons systems and reactor explosions on battlefields all the time.

I don't recall a terminator ever surviving a hit from a Titan weapon or the explosion. Getting stepped on, yeah, we have that story. :p

But seriously, a tactical mini-nuke will cause a big enough explosion (a destroyer hit in games term) that will mince a terminator squad in close proximity.


If Land Raiders are too slow and vulnerable to strikes, wings of Land Speeders would be able to engage the suits in hit and run passes.

Land speeders would be a good vital asset in this kind of firefight I think. The drawbacks on these would be of course their relatively weak frames. Moving incredibly fast, I believe these vehicles would be fairly lethal but extremely vulnerable to return fire. I would imagine this would be an epic movie scene though. ;)

Firaxin
02-03-2010, 01:45
What prevents the marines from having jump packs? That would allow them to make the same bounding leaps the MI does. Thus, maneuverability is equal. Marines arguably have an advantage in armor. Bolters are more accurate and have a faster velocity than the nukes (meaning in a wild west quick draw type battle, the marine can shoot the MI and then jump pack away before the nuke reaches him). If they close to extreme range, marines are relatively immune to flamers, can still use their bolters while the MI can't use their nukes, and are exponentially better in hand-to-hand.

Like I said originally, I don't see the MI winning in a straight-up fight to the death battle. But the MI would win anything else, like objective missions. Once the marines are forced to remain still and defend something, they can be nuked from afar with impunity, which will result in their loss (whether it takes 1 nuke or a dozen).

sabreu
02-03-2010, 02:02
What prevents the marines from having jump packs? That would allow them to make the same bounding leaps the MI does. Thus, maneuverability is equal. Marines arguably have an advantage in armor. Bolters are more accurate and have a faster velocity than the nukes (meaning in a wild west quick draw type battle, the marine can shoot the MI and then jump pack away before the nuke reaches him). If they close to extreme range, marines are relatively immune to flamers, can still use their bolters while the MI can't use their nukes, and are exponentially better in hand-to-hand.

Several things here: Codex orginisation dictates that assault marines with jump packs will not constitute the majority of the fighting force (compromising of Assault squads, Vanguard veterans, and leaders with jump packs). Secondly, Marines using jump packs are geared towards closing the gap and will utilize bolt pistols over bolters, making your scenario a bit daft. Thirdly, the Nuke weapons employed by the MI have a far longer range than the Astartes bolters do, so the MI will be targeting and eliminating Astartes in those precious moments they close the gap. Granted, I won't argue about the hand-to-hand: that is where the Astartes will truly shine against the MI.


Like I said originally, I don't see the MI winning in a straight-up fight to the death battle. But the MI would win anything else, like objective missions. Once the marines are forced to remain still and defend something, they can be nuked from afar with impunity, which will result in their loss (whether it takes 1 nuke or a dozen).

The Marines strong point is not full engagement sorties. In a protracted engagement, the MI superior numbers alone combined with their technology that enables to harm the Astartes will dictate victory. A 1000 is jut not enough Astartes to win in this scenario. Legion sized forces, and the situation flip flops.

Firaxin
02-03-2010, 03:53
In a protracted engagement, the MI superior numbers alone combined with their technology that enables to harm the Astartes will dictate victory. A 1000 is jut not enough Astartes to win in this scenario. Legion sized forces, and the situation flip flops.
According to the original post, the criteria for this engagement includes equal numbers for both forces, so that is irrelevant one way or the other.

There is nothing saying marines can't use bolters in conjunction with jump packs. If a company+ marines are present, then sure, they won't all have jump packs, but if there are only 10 or so guys present on each side (which is not only much closer to the number MI that would realistically be deployed, but also according to the fluff closer to the number of marines that will most commonly be deployed, with full companies being deployed only in emergencies and whole chapters in only the direst of circumstances), then it's not unreasonable to assume those 10 guys are an assault/vanguard squad.

Pooky
02-03-2010, 05:23
MI versus Adeptus Astartes?

There are a few variables you haven't fleshed out:

Where are they fighting? What type of terrain is it?
Which chapter is fighting and is it their preferred fighting style when they engage the MI?
Are you talking only the MI on foot (i.e. the first movie) or using mechs (like in the other movies which I refuse to see).
Is plot armor an issue? *HINT HINT*

I think it could go either way, but that heavily depends on a few things. If the MI engage the Space Marines somewhere where they are not suited to then they may loose. But if it is where the Space Marines are adapted to then the MI have no chance.

Yeah, the MI is impressive. They have tactical nukes, human heart, near countless numbers. But only the Adeptus Astartes has the FLESH EATER VIRUS. Let's see your tactical nuke work now MI supporters! :evilgrin:

All the randomness aside I am still loyal to the Emperor! Space Marines all the way!

Triszin The Wrath God
02-03-2010, 05:48
how do you think a tech marine with a conversion beamer fair against a MI?

Victrix
02-03-2010, 06:42
TEH LEAZER BEAM versus a nuke.

It's not really a laser, it's still a focused beam. And past a certain distance it's guaranteed a miss anyway. The MI lobs a nuke from two miles down. MI wins.

Condottiere
02-03-2010, 06:51
I must say i disagree strongly with the assessment that technology will beat training and experience always. An easy historical example would be the Yom Kippor war. The Egyptians had far superior tanks, numbers, and artillery with brand new weapons systems like the revolutionary AT-3 Sagger as well as the element of surprise and the superior training and coordination of the Israeli army defeated them. The Egyptians also made a strategic error, when they expanded their front beyond the protective SAM umbrella, which may be blamed on Egyptian commanders either not understanding or ignoring modern warfare realities.

MetalGecko23
02-03-2010, 07:00
Its been a while sense I read the book, but I don't remember the MI having very good sensory equipment. Meaning the Astartes are often going to have the drop on the MI, which means nukes don't help. Though I don't actually remember the MI having nukes to use like what is implied. Plus in the beging of the book Diz was killed by a .38 revolver. So the armor doesn't stop squat.
In fluff marines don't really charge across battle fields they tend to drop/teleport right into the thick of it. Or they just wait for an ambush (exceptions for certain chapters can be made).
In all there is nothing to say MI can't win, it just would be a hard fight. Hell there is fluff stories of marines going down to pre-black powder enemies so anything can happen.

Victrix
02-03-2010, 07:58
The MI do have nukes.
Your "memory" about the armor is completely false. (The armor isn't armor like you think, it's more like a Tau Battlesuit)
And no. Unless the Space Marines are provided support - such as teleport homers like you suggest, and etc. They would not win.

This is no debate.

Much like how the 40k universe is drastically overpowered in most respects, so are the troopers in this case. They fly, they shoot nukes, and only a handful is ever enough for most planets. Not because of some whimsical "the entire planet is really just a city or three" but because a nuke is.. well, a nuke.

MetalGecko23
02-03-2010, 08:10
Your "memory" about the armor is completely false. (The armor isn't armor like you think, it's more like a Tau Battlesuit)
In the very beging of the book Diz is shot and killed by a skinny using a revolver. Regardless of what the armor looked like, the pilot was still killed by a handgun. If you have the book then maybe you could provide the specifics of how the gun killed the pilot but the pilot still died, that much I am sure of.

Marshal Argos
02-03-2010, 11:34
Yup, just read the entire first chapter again. Diz is killed by the skinnies. It never ever, says it's a revolver or what sort of weapon it was, just that it left a hole in the armor. Oh, BTW he's not a pilot he's a normal MI trooper, Diz is a pilot in the movie, and girl not a guy(in the movie).

As for sensory equipment.. read the book again, each of these guys is equipped with radar and ground radar. The special scout armor has better of both, but either way they can see for miles without the need for an Auspex. The armor also appears to have some sort of projectile weapon although never stated what kind, in addition to rockets, hand flamers, grenades and Mini-nukes (~2Kt).


Carrying six-platoons, Tours is roomy. Yet it can speedily deliver men anywhere in Federation space and much of Bug space. The MI prefers corvettes to the massive transports the Navy favors. Tours is a mixed (and sexually-segregated) ship, with 15 naval officers (eight female). The MI has eight officers, including Rico. The Skipper is president of the mess, and MI Capt. Blackstone is vice-president. Meals are formal, with seating by declining rank down each side of the table; thus, lowly Rico finds himself beside Capt. Jorgenson, whom he is expected to seat. When she rises, the meal is over, but Blackstone obtains an exemption for his men. Jorgenson personally supervises Rico's math homework every day.

Blackstone wears two hats, commanding the six MI platoons aboard the Tours and his own Company D ...

Partial summary of chapter 13

Oops, sorry my bad, I read the complete passage you quote and it say the MI prefer single platoon Corvettes.

Alsharoth
02-03-2010, 17:00
Marines, all they have to do is back hand the MI and there necks are broken.

x-esiv-4c
02-03-2010, 17:39
Are we talking about the MI from the books or the movies?

Condottiere
02-03-2010, 18:05
Heinlein's book; the film's troopers only had carapace armour.

Victrix
02-03-2010, 18:33
Oh Lawd, the Space Marine fanboys keep coming in.

MetalGecko23
02-03-2010, 18:36
Yup, just read the entire first chapter again. Diz is killed by the skinnies. It never ever, says it's a revolver or what sort of weapon it was, just that it left a hole in the armor. Oh, BTW he's not a pilot he's a normal MI trooper, Diz is a pilot in the movie, and girl not a guy(in the movie).
I was refering to Diz being the pilot of the armored suit. I remember that chapter fairly well for some reason. I did read the book in the 7th grade so its been awhile sense I read the book. Also I remember the skinnies being rather low tech like really low tech, and they had a skinny shooting at them with a revolver so I believe thats when Diz gets shot.

As for sensory equipment.. read the book again, each of these guys is equipped with radar and ground radar. The special scout armor has better of both, but either way they can see for miles without the need for an Auspex. The armor also appears to have some sort of projectile weapon although never stated what kind, in addition to rockets, hand flamers, grenades and Mini-nukes (~2Kt).
What is a ground radar? I thought radar doesn't work low to the ground.

Kage2020
02-03-2010, 18:43
Maybe they just take a peak when they jump? :D

Kage

Condottiere
02-03-2010, 19:43
I can't recall. Maybe it's terrain following radar to allow the trooper to jump just high enough without exposing himself to air defenses.

trolly
02-03-2010, 20:38
MI VS SM :D

1 on 1 SM win, superior physique and thicker armour.
10 on 1 MI maybe win
100 on 1 MI totally win, remember SM equal several dozen people, while MI just normal human.

on small arm. (based on movie) that just standard 5,56 mm bullet that maybe AP, but boltgun use grenades tech, no need krak grenades, one hit MI dies. SM win.

CCW. on the lowest both have combat knife, and back again physique take precedence here. SM win.

And about nukes.
That just mini nuke. MI can hide behind a bank, shoot the hole, which make that as subterranian nuke blast. They wouldn't use it in open. That why they don't fire the nuke when they surrounded in that outpost.(see the movie again).

But, have you guys see the Space Marine Game trailer?
There is HUGE nuke explosion that wipe out the orks, but not SM. SM win on this.

SM is so scarce that make them elites, while MI is so numerous that make them nothing more compare than karskin guard.

:D

Kal Taron
02-03-2010, 21:43
SM is so scarce that make them elites, while MI is so numerous that make them nothing more compare than karskin guard.

That's a logical falacy. Being scarce doesn't make you elite but being elite makes you scarce. Just saying.:p

Tactical Retreat!
02-03-2010, 23:24
MI VS SM :D

1 on 1 SM win, superior physique and thicker armour.
10 on 1 MI maybe win
100 on 1 MI totally win, remember SM equal several dozen people, while MI just normal human.

on small arm. (based on movie) that just standard 5,56 mm bullet that maybe AP, but boltgun use grenades tech, no need krak grenades, one hit MI dies. SM win.

CCW. on the lowest both have combat knife, and back again physique take precedence here. SM win.

And about nukes.
That just mini nuke. MI can hide behind a bank, shoot the hole, which make that as subterranian nuke blast. They wouldn't use it in open. That why they don't fire the nuke when they surrounded in that outpost.(see the movie again).

But, have you guys see the Space Marine Game trailer?
There is HUGE nuke explosion that wipe out the orks, but not SM. SM win on this.

SM is so scarce that make them elites, while MI is so numerous that make them nothing more compare than karskin guard.

:D

We aren't talking about the ****** movie, we are talking about the book.

In which each MI is basically a flying terminator, each one carrying a 2kt nuke and other goodies.

I'd say that a squad of SM would be lucky to survive against a single MI. It basically depends on if they can get the drop on him before he sees, and nukes them. So it should come down to how good MI are at evaluating an area before they jump in. Otherwise the SM could lie in ambush....

which admittedly would be hard when you are huge and wear bulky brightly colored armor.

MI win.

havoc3149
03-03-2010, 00:01
Flying terminators...I didn't know Mephiston was in this forum. Lol just kidding. But regards to the nuke debate, when you consider that people have survived nuclear explosions, although with radiation burns and cancer. But Space marines are immune to diseases like cancer and radiation damage (hyper advanced organs, powered suits, and mucranoid (or space sweat..eww)) so thats one factor taken care of.

Another is the actual blast damage of the nuke itself, but when you consider that our tanks are equipped to handle just that (NBC systems on both Western and Eastern models) and that the suit of a space marine is made of ceramite and adamantinum, imaginary super strong elements yet to be discovered (dont blame me, blame GW) as well as a self contained enviornmental suit.

Deathworld conditions like the volcanic and tetonic planets of the Salamanders and Iron Hands indicate that such thousands and even millions of degrees is not out of the question regarding the limits of Space Marine armor. I don't doubt that a truely direct impact would kill the space marine, since we have a comparison via melta weapons (strength 8 not D) that also use nuclear technology.

As a result, the contest between the 2 become much more close and the other technological advantages like targeting systems (which both MI and marines have) and firepower :RPG like autocannon fired by a century old killing machine vs rocket launcher (nukes included) aimed with Tau smart technology can both fight in the same ranges

And those of you who feel that Space Marines are inferior to MI, remember that Starship Troopers is what INSPIRED the idea of ultra technological rocket launcher equiped trooper which GW obviously APPLIED into their image of the bolter armed space marine.

R Man
03-03-2010, 00:03
Why can't the Marines use Missile Launchers and Lascannons? Why can't they use sensors to detect the mini-nukes and evade using their Rhino's and Razor Backs. Why are the Marines not attacking the MI headquarters and supply depots and such?

And why does neither side have jamming systems? Other than the Nuke do the MI have any other weapon that can pierce marine armour?

There are many issues that have not been answered.

Tactical Retreat!
03-03-2010, 00:17
As a result, the contest between the 2 become much more close and the other technological advantages like targeting systems (which both MI and marines have) and firepower :RPG like autocannon fired by a century old killing machine vs rocket launcher (nukes included) aimed with Tau smart technology can both fight in the same ranges


Unless I'm totally out in the blue here, "surviving a nuke" such as modern MBT's can means that it's dropped somewhere in the vicinity, not on top of your head. Or your squadmate's head for that matter.

Besides even IF SM armor was that tough there is no way that the fight would devolve into autocannon/rocket launcher

Since the SM would be immune to anything.
Which they obviously arent considering that anything from bolters to mole mortars has the potential to kill them. Also even if the main ceramic plates on the armor are incredibly heat resistant the rubbery tissue in the joints sure as hell isnt strong enough.


Why can't the Marines use Missile Launchers and Lascannons? Why can't they use sensors to detect the mini-nukes and evade using their Rhino's and Razor Backs. Why are the Marines not attacking the MI headquarters and supply depots and such?

And why does neither side have jamming systems? Other than the Nuke do the MI have any other weapon that can pierce marine armour?

There are many issues that have not been answered.

Rhinos and razorbacks will have to move pretty damn fast then. I've never thought of a tank detecting and outrunning what's basically the equivalent to a rocket launcher... with a ridicolously deadly payload.

We arent talking about ICBMs or bombs dropped from planes here in case you haven't read the book (which it seems like you haven't considering that you speak about MI headquarters and supply depots) Every MI carries a nuclear missile launcher.

And well they do have other weapons too if needed. Once again power armor isnt impenetrable considering that marines can kill each other with bolters.

trolly
03-03-2010, 00:49
Well, i agree that SM will be killed outright if nukes drop very very close to them. But they will stand the blast to several degree of heat. 40K tanks will survive the blast also, and considering their will-be-found-later material, able to survive the blast more close than marines. Hey, Indiana Jones survive nuclear blast in a refrigerator.

:D

Condottiere
03-03-2010, 01:08
It was the climax of the movie; if you think about it, terminator suits are just refrigerators with locomotion.

I wouldn't exactly trust my life to Soviet NBC kits.

A nuke would vapourize any nearby Space Marines, and probably decommission those further away.

Lord_Crull
03-03-2010, 01:14
Unsupported from the Imperial Guard or other various factions of the Imperium, and the Marines can't even stand against the Tau (see Taros campaign), at least not current chapter-sized orginisations. Bring in Pre-heresy legions and we can talk serious wars here! :D


The Ziest Crusade which consisted solely of Marines pushed back the entire Tau Third Phase Expansion.

N0-1_H3r3
03-03-2010, 01:46
Diz is a pilot in the movie, and girl not a guy(in the movie).
In the movie, 'Dizzy' Flores was MI, not Fleet; the movie chose to depict its version of the MI as mixed-gender, unlike that of the novel.


The armor also appears to have some sort of projectile weapon
I was under the impression that, while all the MI were trained in essentially every form of personal weapon ever developed, the use of conventional projectile weapons wasn't something they'd actually need when fighting in their armoured suits; it's been a while since I read the novel, however, so I might be misremembering it.


MI versus Adeptus Astartes?

There are a few variables you haven't fleshed out:

Where are they fighting? What type of terrain is it?
Which chapter is fighting and is it their preferred fighting style when they engage the MI?

The part I'm more interested in, considering things from the Starship Troopers novel rather than the movies, is the use of orbital assets... that is, are the MI performing their drop at the start of this hypothetical battle, or did it occur some time ago. Same for the Astartes, as similar tactics apply here regarding rapid orbital deployment.

MI strategies spread a platoon over a wide area, their individual mobility and firepower allowing them to be effective in such conditions. Deployed from orbit, the MI can position themselves effectively ready to attack a static force with extreme force. They don't need any heavy support, because they are the heavy support - tougher than old infantry, smaller and faster than tanks.

Astartes strategies are matters of force concentration - overwhelming force in a small area to break through or shatter enemy lines, crush a particular objective, etc. Their drop pods are squad-based, rather than individual, so a functional and versatile unit (the Tactical Squad) can deploy to a single location in relatively tight formation.

The question, then, is which side hits the ground first? The force which is planetside first is at a disadvantage, IMO - squads of Marines make good targets for men with tac-nukes if you can pick them off at range, but similarly, a lone Cap Trooper doesn't really stand a chance against a full Tactical Squad at close range (and if the Tactical Squad is close enough to the Cap Trooper, they deny the rest of the MI squad's ability to use nukes, for fear of friendly fire). If the Astartes use any form of deployment other than drop pods or teleportation, they're at a disadvantage - Thunderhawk deployments are too vulnerable by comparison, and mechanised assaults present an extremely inviting target. A Space Marine's greatest strengths are found at close quarters, where an enemy cannot bring to bear his heaviest weapons - they'll not stand up to a nuke fight, so they force you into knife-fighting range where they have the advantage. A Mobile Infantry Cap Trooper is best at long range, where his heavy weapons can be used most effectively... so the Marines require a way to close the distance quickly and suddenly in order to win.

havoc3149
03-03-2010, 03:33
In regards to your question regarding why rocket launchers instead of nukes. The nukes themselves are potent blast weapons don't get me wrong, but firepower is not just pure heat. Rockets are armor piercing which is simply more useful then a lot of heat. Thats why we have SABOT rounds which are hyper penatrative instead of HEAT rounds which do cause a larger explosion but have less AP. Remember, RTS logic of nuke>tank>soldier doesn't apply to real tactics (if such a claim can be made with futuristic Knights Templar).

Victrix
03-03-2010, 03:39
Flying terminators...I didn't know Mephiston was in this forum. Lol just kidding. But regards to the nuke debate, when you consider that people have survived nuclear explosions, although with radiation burns and cancer. But Space marines are immune to diseases like cancer and radiation damage (hyper advanced organs, powered suits, and mucranoid (or space sweat..eww)) so thats one factor taken care of.

No one has ever survived a nuclear blast. What you're saying is they have survived the fallout, either through shelter, or by being many miles away from the blast. And radiation does more damage than just screwing up your DNA.


Another is the actual blast damage of the nuke itself, but when you consider that our tanks are equipped to handle just that (NBC systems on both Western and Eastern models) and that the suit of a space marine is made of ceramite and adamantinum, imaginary super strong elements yet to be discovered (dont blame me, blame GW) as well as a self contained enviornmental suit.

Tanks are not equipped to deal "actual blast damage". Nukes have been used to vaporize battleships and carriers in tests, much less a little tank. Furthermore, while adamantium may or may not be super strong (which is, in itself an incomplete definition or characteristic - such as, do you mean to say "hardness"?) ceramite, or analogous materials exist.


Deathworld conditions like the volcanic and tetonic planets of the Salamanders and Iron Hands indicate that such thousands and even millions of degrees is not out of the question regarding the limits of Space Marine armor. I don't doubt that a truely direct impact would kill the space marine, since we have a comparison via melta weapons (strength 8 not D) that also use nuclear technology.

No. No, Salamanders and Iron Hands do not live in lava, or whatever you're apparently insinuating. (Planets do not get to millions, or even thousands of degrees for long periods. And no, you can not "terraform" that problem away.) and Melta Weapons are entirely different - using microwaves, if I recall.


As a result, the contest between the 2 become much more close and the other technological advantages like targeting systems (which both MI and marines have) and firepower :RPG like autocannon fired by a century old killing machine vs rocket launcher (nukes included) aimed with Tau smart technology can both fight in the same ranges

No, it's not close. Firepower - The MI wins. This is not up for debate. There is no stronger weapon in either universe that a guy can carry other than a nuclear weapon. And no, even presuming that this singular scenario came to be, an autocannon would not be able to fire as far as a nuke - the ballistics simply don't work out.


And those of you who feel that Space Marines are inferior to MI, remember that Starship Troopers is what INSPIRED the idea of ultra technological rocket launcher equiped trooper which GW obviously APPLIED into their image of the bolter armed space marine.

Actually, what you mean to say is that it inspired Power Armour. In no way do I think bolters were inspired by the MI. At all. What so ever. But it's very well known for being the inspiration for power armor.


Why can't the Marines use Missile Launchers and Lascannons? Why can't they use sensors to detect the mini-nukes and evade using their Rhino's and Razor Backs. Why are the Marines not attacking the MI headquarters and supply depots and such?

I suppose they could? Lascannon has distance and accuracy issues, and the missile launcher needs a lock. An LOS. And no, you can't evade a nuke. I apologize, but if some guy fires a nuclear missile at you, you're not going to be able to get away. Particularly if it, like modern warheads, can be told when and where to detonate. Either way however, it's a non-issue. And Headquarters, supplies, etc. were not included in this scenario by the OP.


And why does neither side have jamming systems? Other than the Nuke do the MI have any other weapon that can pierce marine armour?

There are many issues that have not been answered.

They could? It'd make it even more ludicrous for the MI, since a nuke isn't affected much by jamming. You fire it in the general, several-mile-radius direction and explode it. A missile launcher, lascannon would need a definitive target.

And yes they do - high-caliber rounds, normal rockets, etc. Look it up.

Tactical Retreat!
03-03-2010, 03:54
Little Boy was about 13 kt if I remember correctly, and it devastated an entire city and killed about 150k people.

Little boy's zone of "guaranteed kill" had about a 500 m radius. Now I don't know too much about nuclear weapons, but maybe someone on the forum could make an educated guess about how big an area would be utterly destroyed by the 2 kt bomb every MI carries. Utterly destroyed as in marine-clean.

My guess is it's going to be A LOT more ground than a squad of marines cover, anyway.

Horus_Lupercal
03-03-2010, 04:30
a cap trooper carries enough weapons and ammo for a whole squad or marines, "tactical" nuclear weapons, conventional missles, machine guns, flame throwers, flame gernades, frag gernades, a combat blade..... i think that last ones a little redundant, and they all have jump packs, they would destroy an equal size force of space marines, maybe if the space marines had a 2 to 1 force superority.

MetalGecko23
03-03-2010, 05:58
Tanks are not equipped to deal "actual blast damage". Nukes have been used to vaporize battleships and carriers in tests, much less a little tank. Furthermore, while adamantium may or may not be super strong (which is, in itself an incomplete definition or characteristic - such as, do you mean to say "hardness"?) ceramite, or analogous materials exist.
Funny thing to that famous video of th U.S. dropping a nuke on a derelict fleet, its that the fleet was still their after the explosion. In fact most of those ships were still serviceable. Which if I can remember things right was both shocking and annoying for the military brass.


No, it's not close. Firepower - The MI wins. This is not up for debate. There is no stronger weapon in either universe that a guy can carry other than a nuclear weapon. And no, even presuming that this singular scenario came to be, an autocannon would not be able to fire as far as a nuke - the ballistics simply don't work out.
Confused by this. Are you saying that a mini nuke missile has a greater range than a autocannon. An autocannon could be accurate up to several miles I don't know, a mini nuke is going to be accurate up to about the same maybe less if it isn't fire and forget (which I don't think it was).


Little boy's zone of "guaranteed kill" had about a 500 m radius. Now I don't know too much about nuclear weapons, but maybe someone on the forum could make an educated guess about how big an area would be utterly destroyed by the 2 kt bomb every MI carries. Utterly destroyed as in marine-clean.
I don't think a nuclear weapon can acutally exist at that size. Which is why their are no "mini" nukes. As there needs to be so much material for the reaction to even work. Though if you go to say the Rifts universe mini nukes only have about a 50m radius. Maybe that could help.

Marshal Argos
03-03-2010, 06:28
Funny thing to that famous video of th U.S. dropping a nuke on a derelict fleet, its that the fleet was still their after the explosion. In fact most of those ships were still serviceable. Which if I can remember things right was both shocking and annoying for the military brass.

Yup, if I recall correctly they detonated the nukes on land wanting to see the affect, the ships were km's away so did survive, but those that were parked in the harbor/right up close we twisted metal hulks that sank. Take a look at the images of Nagasaki/Hiroshima and tell me that a modern day Tank could have survived sitting in the middle of that.



Confused by this. Are you saying that a mini nuke missile has a greater range than a autocannon. An autocannon could be accurate up to several miles I don't know, a mini nuke is going to be accurate up to about the same maybe less if it isn't fire and forget (which I don't think it was).
Yes they were. First chapter of the book, talks about how they can jump, find their target, launch the after landing (no LOS) and continue to jump away. IF an AC is like a modern weapon say a .50Cal it has a maximium effective range of about 1.5 Km's a mini nuke in the book talked about several miles.



I don't think a nuclear weapon can acutally exist at that size. Which is why their are no "mini" nukes. As there needs to be so much material for the reaction to even work. Though if you go to say the Rifts universe mini nukes only have about a 50m radius. Maybe that could help. Do some research before making comments like this. We currently have weapons that are capable of .3 to 300 Kiloton range. Ever heard of suitcase bombs, dirty bombs, or artillery fired nukes? A 1Kt weapon has a effective blast radius (strong enough to kill) is around 700m due to the fireball and Dynamic Overpressure. The actual fireball would be around 100m and you'll get radiation burns and flash blindness out to around 15Km's.

trolly
03-03-2010, 06:31
No, it's not close. Firepower - The MI wins. This is not up for debate. There is no stronger weapon in either universe that a guy can carry other than a nuclear weapon. And no, even presuming that this singular scenario came to be, an autocannon would not be able to fire as far as a nuke - the ballistics simply don't work out.

"a guy with nuclear weapon" means that a single guy with don't-know-how-many-rounds nuclear weapon is not dangerous in either universe. You want the deadliest? It is "a guy with airborne viral weapon". nuclear weapon only cover small spot, but airborne viral weapon can be carried around the planet.



Confused by this. Are you saying that a mini nuke missile has a greater range than a autocannon. An autocannon could be accurate up to several miles I don't know, a mini nuke is going to be accurate up to about the same maybe less if it isn't fire and forget (which I don't think it was).


not mentioning today US NAVY experimental Rail Gun.

Victrix
03-03-2010, 07:14
Funny thing to that famous video of th U.S. dropping a nuke on a derelict fleet, its that the fleet was still their after the explosion. In fact most of those ships were still serviceable. Which if I can remember things right was both shocking and annoying for the military brass.

Ivy Mike was the first Hydrogen Device, tested on land and not air burst (which would be the case of an actual attack) and the ships were station a full thirty miles from the device. To top this off, the device itself made a crater more than a mile wide and more than a hundred feet deep. You can tell me, and this forum, that such a weapon would not vaporize a carrier, much less a tank, but that'd either make you an idiot or a liar.



Confused by this. Are you saying that a mini nuke missile has a greater range than a autocannon. An autocannon could be accurate up to several miles I don't know, a mini nuke is going to be accurate up to about the same maybe less if it isn't fire and forget (which I don't think it was).

Yes. Every single form of delivery short of hand-delivery for a nuclear weapon has a longer range than an auutocannon shell, and I can say this even taking into account that you don't have a figure for their effective range. And I find it interesting that you're giving statements about figures that you clearly know nothing about. What mode of delivery do you mean? Because unless you have a clue about miniature warheads, which you clearly don't, the vast, vast majority of nuclear devices are utilized via missiles and rockets and easily have a range of hundreds to thousands of miles.

But, to entertain you - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Davy_Crockett_(nuclear_device)

Even this, the smaller device ever produced, had a range 1.5 - 2.5 miles.
And was still capable of vaporizing any marine within several thousand feet.


I don't think a nuclear weapon can acutally exist at that size. Which is why their are no "mini" nukes. As there needs to be so much material for the reaction to even work. Though if you go to say the Rifts universe mini nukes only have about a 50m radius. Maybe that could help.

Nuclear devices have a variety of methods to cause critical mass:

Gun-type assembly
Implosion assembly method
---
Teller-Ulam design
--
Fusion-Boosted Fission Device
Two-stage thermonuclear device
Orralloy (W-88 Design)
Or:
X-Ray implosion

MetalGecko23
03-03-2010, 08:01
Yes they were. First chapter of the book, talks about how they can jump, find their target, launch the after landing (no LOS) and continue to jump away. IF an AC is like a modern weapon say a .50Cal it has a maximium effective range of about 1.5 Km's a mini nuke in the book talked about several miles.
Autocannons are not .50cal by a long shot. The heavy stubber is but not the autocannon, which is much bigger. We are also talking about the balistics of the 40st millenium which can possibly increase the range on their bullets. I know we have in the last 100 years.


Ivy Mike was the first Hydrogen Device, tested on land and not air burst (which would be the case of an actual attack) and the ships were station a full thirty miles from the device. To top this off, the device itself made a crater more than a mile wide and more than a hundred feet deep. You can tell me, and this forum, that such a weapon would not vaporize a carrier, much less a tank, but that'd either make you an idiot or a liar.
I was refering to operation crossroads. Where two nukes were dropped on a U.S. and failed to sink a majority of the ships. Furthermore there were animals kept on the ship to see how they would die. Most were not killed by heat or the blast, but were killed by radiation. It was surmised that atomic weapons don't have the same kill power against hard targets as they do soft targest (like cities).
So the radiation isn't going to kill an Astartes, and the heat might not either. It is possible that a 2 kiloton nuclear weapon might not actually kill a space marine. I might be spit balling here but I think there might be evidence to say that you cannot say for sure whether or not a marine might survive the weapon.


Yes. Every single form of delivery short of hand-delivery for a nuclear weapon has a longer range than an auutocannon shell, and I can say this even taking into account that you don't have a figure for their effective range. And I find it interesting that you're giving statements about figures that you clearly know nothing about. What mode of delivery do you mean? Because unless you have a clue about miniature warheads, which you clearly don't, the vast, vast majority of nuclear devices are utilized via missiles and rockets and easily have a range of hundreds to thousands of miles.
Yes, yes...all good and great and all but we are talking about the MI and weapons that they carry. They are not artillery pieces and they are not missile silos so the best they can carry are shoulder fire rockets which will be limited in range do to propellent.


But, to entertain you - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Davy_Cr...nuclear_device)

Even this, the smaller device ever produced, had a range 1.5 - 2.5 miles.
And was still capable of vaporizing any marine within several thousand feet.
Which is fired by a very large gun. Nothing the MI can carry.

Victrix
03-03-2010, 08:51
Autocannons are not .50cal by a long shot. The heavy stubber is but not the autocannon, which is much bigger. We are also talking about the balistics of the 40st millenium which can possibly increase the range on their bullets. I know we have in the last 100 years.

Excellent. And no, ballistics dictate that a bullet, much less something even larger than a .50cal, will not be going far. Certainly not several miles with anything akin to accuracy. And our accuracy increase was moving from Minnie balls and smoothbore to rifling and copper-jacket boat-tailed pointed bullets. Unless you're going to come up with a more aerodynamic design than the present bullet (and this isn't rocket science, there isn't much of one) then 40k won't be too much better.



I was refering to operation crossroads. Where two nukes were dropped on a U.S. and failed to sink a majority of the ships. Furthermore there were animals kept on the ship to see how they would die. Most were not killed by heat or the blast, but were killed by radiation. It was surmised that atomic weapons don't have the same kill power against hard targets as they do soft targest (like cities).
So the radiation isn't going to kill an Astartes, and the heat might not either. It is possible that a 2 kiloton nuclear weapon might not actually kill a space marine. I might be spit balling here but I think there might be evidence to say that you cannot say for sure whether or not a marine might survive the weapon.

First: This entire argument is moot. A tank is not in the water. A tank is nowhere near the size of a battleship. And were a nuke to hit a carrier, it would disintegrate.
Second: The only nuke of the two that successfully was tested, and was above ground, missed its target by over two-thousand feet. Despite this, it still managed to sink multiple ships.
Third: If you really want to keep arguing tests that don't support your side at all, and don't even support the point you're still trying to feebly establish with them - then I'll quote this for your discussion on the radiation:

"In theory, every unprotected location on the ship received 10,000 rems of initial nuclear radiation from the fireball. Fletcher 1977. Therefore, people deep enough inside the ship to experience a 90% radiation reduction would still have received a lethal dose of 1,000 rems. Glasstone & Dolan 1977, p. 580. From Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists: "... a large ship, about a mile away from the explosion, would escape sinking, but the crew would be killed by the deadly burst of radiations from the bomb, and only a ghost ship would remain, floating unattended in the vast waters of the ocean." Bulletin Editors 1946, p. 1."

Fourth, and lastly:
Despite that a nuclear weapon is in every way absurd and impossible overkill on any living organism in its kill radius - you brought up something about how the heat wouldn't affect a marine?
http://www.fas.org/nuke/intro/nuke/thermal.htm

I would absolutely WELCOME an explanation how a marine can survive several million degree temperatures, nevermind the pressure or radiation. But how they just don't evaporate the moment it goes off.


Yes, yes...all good and great and all but we are talking about the MI and weapons that they carry. They are not artillery pieces and they are not missile silos so the best they can carry are shoulder fire rockets which will be limited in range do to propellent.


Which is fired by a very large gun. Nothing the MI can carry.

Have you seen MI armor suits? It's conceivable they have a built in recoilless rifle, rocket tube, or missile launcher. The latter giving it the range of single-digit miles, the other giving it tens or hundreds. And this blanket argument coming from someone who didn't even think you could make miniature warheads?

Oh, the lulz.

Marshal Argos
03-03-2010, 09:02
I was refering to operation crossroads. Where two nukes were dropped on a U.S. and failed to sink a majority of the ships. Furthermore there were animals kept on the ship to see how they would die. Most were not killed by heat or the blast, but were killed by radiation. It was surmised that atomic weapons don't have the same kill power against hard targets as they do soft targest (like cities).
So the radiation isn't going to kill an Astartes, and the heat might not either. It is possible that a 2 kiloton nuclear weapon might not actually kill a space marine. I might be spit balling here but I think there might be evidence to say that you cannot say for sure whether or not a marine might survive the weapon.

Taken from your own example of Operation Crossroads "On 25 July, the battleship was sunk by the underwater nuclear test BAKER at Bikini Atoll. Unattentuated by air, the shock was "transmitted directly to underwater hulls", and Arkansas, only 250 yards from the epicenter, appeared to have been "crushed as if by a tremendous hammer blow from below" and your saying a SM in PA will survive that?



Yes, yes...all good and great and all but we are talking about the MI and weapons that they carry. They are not artillery pieces and they are not missile silos so the best they can carry are shoulder fire rockets which will be limited in range do to propellent.

Which is fired by a very large gun. Nothing the MI can carry.

Actually if you had looked up some of those you'd see that the Davy Crockett device was fired by a recoilless rifle. But what about all the other others we have backpack nukes, and suitcase nukes, those as you say are all small enough to be shoulder fired. We currently have shoulder fired missiles that have ranges that exceed 6Km's. I'm sure as in your first arguement weapons have advanced by then to increase the range, and size.

MetalGecko23
03-03-2010, 09:30
Excellent. And no, ballistics dictate that a bullet, much less something even larger than a .50cal, will not be going far. Certainly not several miles with anything akin to accuracy. And our accuracy increase was moving from Minnie balls and smoothbore to rifling and copper-jacket boat-tailed pointed bullets. Unless you're going to come up with a more aerodynamic design than the present bullet (and this isn't rocket science, there isn't much of one) then 40k won't be too much better.
The Gau-8 is accurate at 3miles and fires a round comparable to the autocannon.


"In theory, every unprotected location on the ship received 10,000 rems of initial nuclear radiation from the fireball. Fletcher 1977. Therefore, people deep enough inside the ship to experience a 90% radiation reduction would still have received a lethal dose of 1,000 rems. Glasstone & Dolan 1977, p. 580. From Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists: "... a large ship, about a mile away from the explosion, would escape sinking, but the crew would be killed by the deadly burst of radiations from the bomb, and only a ghost ship would remain, floating unattended in the vast waters of the ocean." Bulletin Editors 1946, p. 1."
A marine can walk out into the open vaccum of space and survive the lethal radiation with out a helmet on. A nuclear weapon simply doesn't produce enough radiation to kill a space marine.


I would absolutely WELCOME an explanation how a marine can survive several million degree temperatures, nevermind the pressure or radiation. But how they just don't evaporate the moment it goes off.
In the Iron Hands book, Iron Father Gadulkin is shot in the chest with a plasma pistol and survives. Plasma weapons in 40k are described as being the heat of a thousand suns. In the Soul Drinkers series there is a terminator armor marine who takes multiple shots before he is killed by plasma weapons. There is a short story about a Ultramarine terminator that is shot by a plasma gun and only loses his arm and continues fighting.


Have you seen MI armor suits? It's conceivable they have a built in recoilless rifle, rocket tube, or missile launcher. The latter giving it the range of single-digit miles, the other giving it tens or hundreds. And this blanket argument coming from someone who didn't even think you could make miniature warheads?
Yes I have seen the armor it is about the size of a space suit worn by modern astronauts......unless we are talking about the tv show or the japanese anime. Though I figured that if we are going by the book that we should go by the orginal artwork.


Actually if you had looked up some of those you'd see that the Davy Crockett device was fired by a recoilless rifle. But what about all the other others we have backpack nukes, and suitcase nukes, those as you say are all small enough to be shoulder fired. We currently have shoulder fired missiles that have ranges that exceed 6Km's. I'm sure as in your first arguement weapons have advanced by then to increase the range, and size.
The Davy Crockett was 120mm right? Like a tank round? And the MI exo suit is man sized.

Victrix
03-03-2010, 10:13
The Gau-8 is accurate at 3miles and fires a round comparable to the autocannon.

Really? Source.
Discounting that 30mm projectiles are simply unfeasible for a space marine to lug about in any decent number, that the device itself is the single largest, heaviest cannon ever to be fitted to an aircraft, much less a marine (though I suppose we're debating the ammunition, not the device firing it? But they're interlinked, so I digress) and at the very least, I'd discredit this entire line of thought because you're talking about an aircraft weapon. Which means it is both an entirely different set of physics in engineering and use than an infantry-level weapon that you're using to compare.

And EVEN STILL - This would require line of sight, excellent accuracy with no wind, and a host of other issues. A nuke? None of these problems.



A marine can walk out into the open vaccum of space and survive the lethal radiation with out a helmet on. A nuclear weapon simply doesn't produce enough radiation to kill a space marine.

I apologize, but you're an [edited]. I'm not sure if this is due to lack of research on your part, or if you're just a massive fan boy, but you keep insinuating things you have no idea about and try to form them into an argument.
Space by itself has very little radiation. Unless you're discussing radiation belts, nearby planetary bodies, and etc. A nuclear weapon puts out several hundreds orders of magnitudes more radiation, and of vastly more types than a person could expect to experience in space.



In the Iron Hands book, Iron Father Gadulkin is shot in the chest with a plasma pistol and survives. Plasma weapons in 40k are described as being the heat of a thousand suns. In the Soul Drinkers series there is a terminator armor marine who takes multiple shots before he is killed by plasma weapons. There is a short story about a Ultramarine terminator that is shot by a plasma gun and only loses his arm and continues fighting.

Do you honestly think "the heat of a thousand suns" if a quote at all, was literal truth and not hyperbole? And.. contained plasma.. and a nuclear [expletive bomb].. have absolutely nothing in common..

Stop bringing up things that have no relation to the subject at hand. Please. Christ. Sweet merciful God in Heaven.



Yes I have seen the armor it is about the size of a space suit worn by modern astronauts......unless we are talking about the tv show or the japanese anime. Though I figured that if we are going by the book that we should go by the orginal artwork.

The cover art is not the power armour. You have clearly not read the book or made the slightest attempt at research. The very first description reads the armor makes a person look like a giant, metal gorilla. Does this description in anyway correlate to the guy with a dinky helmet, flight suit, and man-sized rifle?



The Davy Crockett was 120mm right? Like a tank round? And the MI exo suit is man sized.

..I have no idea what you're talking about or insinuating at this point. Even presuming your comparison to a tank round was correct, and it's not, they're entirely different projectiles, with entirely different physics, with entirely different launch mechanisms. And really, I'm pretty sure we can further shrink nukes by the time MI arrives. Even still, the ACTUAL SUIT they were is capable of handling quite a few, if the book is anything to go by.

Please, stop arguing or come up with a cohesive reason as to why my side is wrong.
Stop grabbing facts out of the air or if you do, have the COURTESY to myself and other to at least check if they make sense or are real in the first place.

Marshal Argos
03-03-2010, 10:27
The Gau-8 is accurate at 3miles and fires a round comparable to the autocannon.
It's effective range is 1.2Km's and even then it's only 80% of it's rounds within a 20ft area. A mini-nuke as I stated earlier can hit 50 meters away and still has enough destructive power to kill a SM.


A marine can walk out into the open vaccum of space and survive the lethal radiation with out a helmet on. A nuclear weapon simply doesn't produce enough radiation to kill a space marine. See, you have to say what sort of radiation, thermal, fallout, ionisation. The problem is that they are light years away from the source so it's a smaller amount. Take that space marine and have him step out into space next to a sun and i'll die because the levels are millions of times stronger. It's the same idea of being 20 miles away from a nuclear expolsion as to being in the epicenter (within 300meters)



In the Iron Hands book, Iron Father Gadulkin is shot in the chest with a plasma pistol and survives. Plasma weapons in 40k are described as being the heat of a thousand suns. In the Soul Drinkers series there is a terminator armor marine who takes multiple shots before he is killed by plasma weapons. There is a short story about a Ultramarine terminator that is shot by a plasma gun and only loses his arm and continues fighting.

Nuclear fireball has temperatures around 60-100 million degrees C, which is some 10,000 times hotter than the surface of the sun. About 9,000 times hotter than the heat of a thousand suns. Even the fireball sends out 300,000 degree C shockwave after the initial blast.


The Davy Crockett was 120mm right? Like a tank round? And the MI exo suit is man sized.
I'll just say look it up. But it could be fired either from 102mm, which by the way is the smaller then Russian RPG-29 (105mm) or Panzerfaust 3 (110mm) which are still capable of being carried by a single person.

R Man
03-03-2010, 10:53
Rhinos and razorbacks will have to move pretty damn fast then. I've never thought of a tank detecting and outrunning what's basically the equivalent to a rocket launcher... with a ridicolously deadly payload.

But the issue is surprise. If the Marines get close enough the nuke becomes useless (well, to the individual).


We arent talking about ICBMs or bombs dropped from planes here in case you haven't read the book (which it seems like you haven't considering that you speak about MI headquarters and supply depots) Every MI carries a nuclear missile launcher.

Well, it would depend on the situation. If the MI were unable to use orbital capabilities, then they must have a planetary base (and it would make sense that some form of strategic building would be on the planet, or they wouldn't be fighting). And to be honest, I haven't read the book, but what annoyes me here is not the MI, but the seeming assumption that Marines are armed only with bolt weapons.


I suppose they could? Lascannon has distance and accuracy issues, and the missile launcher needs a lock. An LOS. And no, you can't evade a nuke. I apologize, but if some guy fires a nuclear missile at you, you're not going to be able to get away. Particularly if it, like modern warheads, can be told when and where to detonate. Either way however, it's a non-issue. And Headquarters, supplies, etc. were not included in this scenario by the OP.

Who says that Marine Missiles need a lock, or LOS. This seems pure presumption. Why aren't they heat seeking? Or guided from behind cover?


They could? It'd make it even more ludicrous for the MI, since a nuke isn't affected much by jamming. You fire it in the general, several-mile-radius direction and explode it. A missile launcher, lascannon would need a definitive target.

And yes they do - high-caliber rounds, normal rockets, etc. Look it up.

But if they are jammed, how do they know where to aim it? Or do they fire in random directions and hope they hit?

borithan
04-03-2010, 21:18
The load out for an MI suit was (if I remember correctly):
A flamer (and not a terribly scary one, from what I remember. It seems to actually produce flame, rather than launch flaming fuel at the enemy)
A bomb rack which fires small bombs (but powerful for their size)
"Fire pellets". Absolutely no idea what they are, but it sounded like rather limited, purely incendiary devices.
For very special occasions: the Pee-Wee mini nukes.

The bomb rack appeared to be the primary weapon. However, it is not clear how accurate the weapon is (purely used against buildings from what I remember). A direct hit or very close miss would presumably total a Space Marine, but with the protective qualities of Power Armour their effectiveness beyond that would fall off quickly. Probably be effective against SM vehicles, as long as equipped with anti-tank rounds (and tanks are stated as having been made obsolete by the then current technology).
The Flamer I am totally discounting, as from my reading it wasn't a terribly effective weapon and would have trouble against any Space Marine bothered to wear their helmet).
Now, the Pee-Wee (was it ever called that or have I just totally misremembered it) would presumably be effective, but it wasn't a general issue weapon, and not massively powerful. In the right circumstances I would say it would be able to put a squad of Space Marines out of action (obviously more if they happen to be stupid enough to deploy multiple squads close together).
They seem to lack any sort of normal direct fire weapon.
Their protection is not that impressive for their size (from what I remember a hand held Bug energy weapon quite quickly takes burns through the "armour" on them... ok, it might be that those weapons are massively high powered, but I didn't see anything suggesting that). Their main protection is their mobility, not the armour on the suits (which share more with Tau Battlesuits in size, not Dreadnoughts). However, due to their size I would probably make them about comparable to Space Marine power armour in that field (so not as effective for its size, but overall roughly equal, maybe slightly superior).

Between equal numbers of combatants it would really depend on other circumstances. Long range engagements would probably go to the MI, as their ability to dominate large areas would give them a significant advantage. Fire bombs at long range, or if equipped some mini-nukes. Short range (not CC, which I would class as irrelevant) I would give to the SM. The MI are not really equipped for short range fire fights, their main killing weapons really being too powerful for their own good, and the backup weapons being entirely unimpressive. Here the Space Marines weaponry would give them the edge.

However, I am not sure roughly equal numbers would be the "realistic" match up. Space Marines (well according to some of the fluff) will tend to deploy in greater numbers than the MI do (and certainly at greater concentrations). In my mind the abundance of heavy weaponry (when compared to the number of MI likely to be nearby) will give them a significant advantage.


Let's pretend they're lobbing, say, 1KT nukes. That's still vaporizing several miles.They are nowhere near that range. They were clearly meant to be sub-kilotonne weapons.


He even said he put down the novel because he was "bored with it".Mustn't have had much of an attention span... its not even that long. Though I would have to say the premise of the society put forward in the book has many significant flaws in it.


The training of the MI is intense, but it compares nothing to the decades long training of a marine.And all they have faced are the rather pisspoor skinnies and bugs.


MI forces of half battalions are easily mustered and deployed; anything on a similar scale by the Marines is suddenly a major commitment.But a half-battalion of MI is expected to hold a lot more ground. The MI are meant to number in... well, not sure if it is totally clear, but not that large, and a division of 10,000 (I think) was expected to take and hold a planet.


as the Mobile Infantry will outnumber the chapter tremendously.Why? MI deploy in a very, very dispersed manner (partly because their systems allow them to). In most situations the SM are likely to outnumber the MI. If you mean overall... even then I would give it to the Space Marines... I don't think there are 1 million MI. A whole lot less.


The armor also appears to have some sort of projectile weapon although never stated what kind,Where? I don't remember a single reference to such a weapon.


What is a ground radar? I thought radar doesn't work low to the ground.There is nothing stopping radar working against ground targets except the fact that terrain will usually get in the way. Get high (like the MI) and it will work.


Every MI carries a nuclear missile launcher. They have the ability to. I don't remember it ever being said that they were standard issue munitions.


And radiation does more damage than just screwing up your DNA.Yes, but if not received in high enough doses it can take time to take effect. And I would imagine the radiation effects of the nukes will be fairly minimal against Space Marines (radiological protection would surely be standard on such equipment as Power Armour in a universe like 40k?). The main effects are the blast and heat. And the effect of both would again be more limited than against modern targets.

Sorry, I keep seeing this 2kt figure for the mini-nuke. Have I just forgotten the book, and it is explicitly stated, or is this just a guess on people's part?


IF an AC is like a modern weapon say a .50Cal it has a maximium effective range of about 1.5 Km'sAn Autocannon is more like a 30mm cannon, not a .50 cal machine gun.



And was still capable of vaporizing any marine within several thousand feet.Ermm... no. It was a tiny nuclear weapon (10-20 tons of TNT equivalent). Actually probably just the kind of thing the mini-nuke behaves like (though the mini-nuke would be more accurate). Anyone caught within the fireball would be dead, but that is much, much smaller than you probably would expect. Blast would travel further, but would be less effective than against current targets. Radiation (expected to be the main killer with the Davy Crockett, due to its small yield)... unclear without knowing the protective abilities of Power Armour in this field... which is not really dealt with in 40k.


Which is fired by a very large gun. Nothing the MI can carry. The MI are more advanced than 1950s America. That a smaller weapon would have the same power is not unlikely.

Marshal Argos
05-03-2010, 07:48
Between equal numbers of combatants it would really depend on other circumstances. Long range engagements would probably go to the MI, as their ability to dominate large areas would give them a significant advantage. Fire bombs at long range, or if equipped some mini-nukes. Short range (not CC, which I would class as irrelevant) I would give to the SM. The MI are not really equipped for short range fire fights, their main killing weapons really being too powerful for their own good, and the backup weapons being entirely unimpressive. Here the Space Marines weaponry would give them the edge.

However, I am not sure roughly equal numbers would be the "realistic" match up. Space Marines (well according to some of the fluff) will tend to deploy in greater numbers than the MI do (and certainly at greater concentrations). In my mind the abundance of heavy weaponry (when compared to the number of MI likely to be nearby) will give them a significant advantage. The thing is though why would you let enemy get close to you when you can engage them from a distance, fall back or flank, and continue to engage from ranges where they can't touch you. That's exactly what I would Imagine the MI doing, move and shoot, keeping them in range of your weapons and you out of range of theirs. I don't believe that the SM have more heavy weapons, not when "EVERY" MI trooper carries a missile launcher (I went back and looked it does mention that mini-nukes aren't issued for every mission), flamer, ?-gun.



But a half-battalion of MI is expected to hold a lot more ground. The MI are meant to number in... well, not sure if it is totally clear, but not that large, and a division of 10,000 (I think) was expected to take and hold a planet.

Why? MI deploy in a very, very dispersed manner (partly because their systems allow them to). In most situations the SM are likely to outnumber the MI. If you mean overall... even then I would give it to the Space Marines... I don't think there are 1 million MI. A whole lot less. I agree, I 'd guess around 50-100k tops. There's a total of 7 different Divisions mentioned with max strength of each division around 11k. But if as the OP states,we're discussing what would happen if both sides had relatively equal numbers.


Where? I don't remember a single reference to such a weapon. Throughout the book it repeatedly refers to having to reload their weapons, recover ammo from fallen comrades, that if you shoot off 2-3 legs the bugs keep coming but if you shoot eh "nerve" center they are down and out, shooting, shooting, shooting. The problem is that he never mentions what their shooting, but does make the distinction between, shooting, using a flamer, and launching a rocket/mini-nuke. The flamer was just mentioned as a Hand-Flamer, and highly effective in close in/tunnel fighting both early on and later in the book. "a good defensive weapon anti-personal weapon in close quarters". It also metions that bugs have a laser gun, that can cut right through they're armor like it was nothing, and that the skinnies used weapons from the bugs. The only reference we see to it though is this " i was brushed... made my hair stand on end and paralyzed me for a moment... if I hadn't jumped already I wouldn't have gotten out"


Sorry, I keep seeing this 2kt figure for the mini-nuke. Have I just forgotten the book, and it is explicitly stated, or is this just a guess on people's part? It's stated in the first chapter that their nominal yield is 2Kt, but are equipped with "tamper and implosion squeeze" to reduce the effects bringing it under the 2kt mark.

Condottiere
05-03-2010, 08:24
IIRC, 10% make it through boot camp, so all you need is to persuade ten million to volunteer. I don't remember what the washouts do, since they have a right to serve.

borithan
05-03-2010, 13:08
Looking at the description in the book I always read the rocket launcher as solely being for the mini-nukes. It is several months since I read it all the way through, but I don't remember it being used for anything else (the main conventional weapon being the bomb-racks).

Oh, there is also a reference to a "heavy flamer" which he gets out when walking through buildings. Seems distinct from the hand flamer.


The thing is though why would you let enemy get close to you when you can engage them from a distance,Not out of choice. Ambush, accident, whatever. Yes, an MI is not going to choose to engage a Space Marine at close range, but he may not have a choice about it.



I don't believe that the SM have more heavy weapons, not when "EVERY" MI trooper carries a missile launcher (I went back and looked it does mention that mini-nukes aren't issued for every mission), flamer, ?-gun.I was saying in a situation where "normal" forces came up against each other, rather than equal numbers. MI fight in a very dispersed manner (because they can), and they don't drop very large numbers in close proximity at all. Space Marines, while not numbering very many either, deploy in more concentrated forces, meaning a more likely engagement would be 1 or 2 MI vs 1-3 squads of SM. In that case they do have more usable heavy weapons (as there is one operator per weapon, rather than multiple weapons given to each man) than the MI.



Throughout the book it repeatedly refers to having to reload their weapons,Only reference I have found so far is to reloading their Pee-Wee launchers and the bomb racks.



that if you shoot off 2-3 legs the bugs keep coming but if you shoot eh "nerve" center they are down and out, shooting, shooting, shooting.It actually says "burn off". I think this is a reference to the flamers they have.

However, yes there is some reference to "shooting" something (in his first contact with a bug he says he doesn't stop shooting until well after it is dead).



The flamer was just mentioned as a Hand-Flamer, and highly effective in close in/tunnel fighting both early on and later in the book. "a good defensive weapon anti-personal weapon in close quarters".Yes, but it's primary use was incendiary, so it was not a really viable secondary weapon. Its main good point was at extreme close ranges it required no aiming. Remember that the targets they faced were totally unarmoured.



It also metions that bugs have a laser gun, that can cut right through they're armor like it was nothing,Yup.



It's stated in the first chapter that their nominal yield is 2Kt, but are equipped with "tamper and implosion squeeze" to reduce the effects bringing it under the 2kt mark.It says: "It was just a pee-wee (I knew I got that term from somewhere), of course, less than two kilotons nominal yield, with tamper and implosion squeeze to produce results from a less-than-critical mass". So the nominal yield is not 2kt, but less. Not specified how much less, but using that figure does suggest it might be somewhere in the vicinity of 2kt, unless pee-wee is a term for all sub-2kt weapons (and so it could be almost any amount less than that). The "tamper and implosion squeeze" (whatever that means) just means it can produce a nuclear scale explosion from less than the normal required minimum mass of fissile material (which might suggest it is very small indeed, seeing as in the 1950s they could produce the Davey Crokett which was about as small as you could go, and it was a minimum of .01kt yield).

The Fat Man bomb used on Hiroshima (18kt, so much more powerful than the suggested pee-wee, whether it is a 2 kt or sub-kiloton weapon) had a fire ball radius of 100 metres. The blast and heat flash obviously go much much further (the heat flash of a 1MT bomb can blind people to 11km out, from what I remember), but these will have a much lesser effect on hard targets than they do on soft.