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Bunny.of.Khaine
26-02-2010, 04:24
So recently a FAQ put out for the Adepticon came out with result

Q. If the Grey Seer or Plague Priest riding a Screaming Bell / Plague Furnace is killed is the Screaming Bell / Plague Furnace ejected from the unit at the end of the phase?

A. Yes. It must remain in contact with any unit it was previously touching. If a Plague-Monk unit with a furnace loses the PF Priest while engaged with units to the front and left flank, the Furnace is ejected to the right flank, maintaining contact with the unit it (the furnace) was in contact with.

So while discussing it in a thread on a Skaven Board The Under Empire they have stated that there are no rules to back that FAQ decision.

While they have been made aware that by the rules on pg 59 last paragraph what makes a Monstrous Mount a MM. Some of the members have refused to believe that. They attest that the Bell/Furnace is it's own classification. With out being able to provide any rules or game mechanics to back there claim up.

Second they have been made aware that the GW FAQ states the mounts get ejected from the unit once it is removed.

Third they have been made aware that units can join other units unless they are a character. In case of the Ejection rule once it is no longer a character when the GS/PP dies it is a unit.

Fourth the PF/SB states the PF/SB can't voluntarily leave the unit. The Ejection Rule is not a voluntary leave it is forced or involuntarily.

I bring this question to this forums so that an unbiased response from the community can pass there judgment based on the rules of the game of this Adepticon Ruling is correct. Because some of the individuals have been unable to provide any actual rules that the SB/PB have or that are in the rulebook to support their stance that it does not get ejected from the unit.

In which case they have stated the entire gaming community agrees with them and I'm the only one that agrees it should be ejected from the unit by the rules. So I'd though I'd bring it over to the Gaming Community to have thier say.

You can get thier take of it at this address to see if your interested.

http://underempire.net/index.php?showtopic=32516&st=0

stripsteak
26-02-2010, 15:15
You're going to hear the same stuff here. the RAW arguments go (for brevity) there are only the classifications listed in the BSB. being a 'special kind of mount' caries no rulings with it in the skaven book, so the only category the bell falls under is an MM. and MM defines it as a monster. and a monster is not allowed to be joined to a unit on it's own. so it is forcibly ejected like any other MM when it loses it's rider. There really isn't anything more to that side of the debate.

*edit*
some reading:
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=237128&highlight=screaming+bell
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=229710&highlight=screaming+bell
i think there are others to http://www.warseer.com/forums/search.php?searchid=1916466

theunwantedbeing
26-02-2010, 15:40
No it isnt bounced out of the unit when the guy on top dies.
It's pushed by the unit that surrounds it so will continue to be pushed.

Not a rules answer but a common sense one.

rtunian
26-02-2010, 15:48
monsters that make up normal monstrous mounts have the ability to move on their own. does the plague furnace have the ability to move on its own? or is it something that depends on the monks for its movement?

Atrahasis
26-02-2010, 17:23
It doesn't matter if it has the ability to move - units in close combat can't move, but monstrous mounts, chariots, and most importantly "special mounts", are still separated if their rider dies.

Ultimate Life Form
26-02-2010, 17:36
Oh why didst thou have to wake the ancient demons once more? :o

(Before this thread gets locked, as far as I'm concerned there are no 'common sense answers', only rules answers. If we dig a little deeper, we will find that MOST things in Warhammer make little sense, so I prefer my tried-and-true official GW rules, thank you. Stripstreak summed it up very nicely, and actually the thread should be over now. With that, I'm off.)

Mr_Rose
26-02-2010, 17:51
Right, RAW, it has to be ejected. But RAW fails to specify where to.
Nearest unoccupied flank/rear sounds like a good plan to me.

N.B. The following has no rules support whatsoever. It is merely a suggested house-rule:
In terms of fluff and 'common sense', it ought to say where it is, immobile and no longer granting any benefits, and be destroyed if the unit it's with flees, allowing the unit to get away unharmed. Or be left behind when the unit next moves. That at least makes sense for a hulking great mass of wood and stone, even if it is treated like a monster most of the time.

rtunian
26-02-2010, 17:58
why would the thread be locked?

the rule book includes a provision for situations that are not fully covered by the rules. this is why it matters if the plague furnace has any capacity of acting independently. is it true that normal monstrous mounts are capable of functioning independent of a unit? the normal rules stipulate that normal monstrous mounts are booted when their rider is slain, but there are also rules for how a normal monstrous mount acts when its on its own.

if there are no rules for how a plague furnace act w/o a unit, it's hard to say that you can put the plague furnace outside of the unit.

now, can i have my question answered? does it have a way to move?

stripsteak
26-02-2010, 18:19
now, can i have my question answered? does it have a way to move?
sure it follows all movement rules using it's M value.


monsters that make up normal monstrous mounts have the ability to move on their own. does the plague furnace have the ability to move on its own? or is it something that depends on the monks for its movement?

monsters having the ability to move themselves is not part of a rule defining them as monsters, it's just a commonality between previously existing monsters.

Bodysnatcher
26-02-2010, 19:00
UKGT ruled that the pushed things stayed in their units. But wait for the official FAQ.

Haravikk
26-02-2010, 20:14
No it isnt bounced out of the unit when the guy on top dies.
It's pushed by the unit that surrounds it so will continue to be pushed.

Not a rules answer but a common sense one.
I agree with this, makes no sense that it would get "ejected", and as far as the description goes the crew of the furnace are perfectly capable of operating it on their own, the plague priest just happened to be on it (and necessary to purchase it).


sure it follows all movement rules using it's M value.
As I recall the Plague Furnace doesn't have a movement characteristic; its movement is determined by the unit that it is permanently attached to. I think it says somewhere as well that the unit cannot leave the furnace, so it stands to reason the opposite is also true, that the furnace cannot leave the unit.

Grey Mage
26-02-2010, 22:55
Well, if a unit has nothing in a particular characteristic then it auto-fails to do anything with that characteristic- so in the case of movement a creature with M 0 or M - would simply not move.

Thats pretty straightforward there.

Mr_Rose
27-02-2010, 03:04
I suspect that in the next edition there will be a differentiation made between "-" and "0" for characteristics. Specifically that "0" is an auto-fail whereas "-" would mean the thing cannot be affected by anything that operates based on that stat.

But that's just idle speculation.

Warlord Gnashgrod
27-02-2010, 05:04
Admittedly, yes, by true RAW it would have to be ejected from the unit if it's rider dies. However, this would make the SB and PF essentially worthless as it is easy to kill the rider, especially on the PF. Then it leaves the unit, and its special unbreakable rule is gone.

Which makes me think that requiring it to leave it's unit was not what the rules designers intended. I expect though that the true FAQ will finally put an end to the debate, when it finally comes out.

Personally, though, I think anyone saying that it must leave the unit is being a rules nazi and forgetting the main purpose of the game; to have fun.

KayazyAssassin
27-02-2010, 06:15
during coastal assault down here in Florida the judges ruled that it stayed in the unit so that's the way we play down here until the gw faq comes out

Haravikk
27-02-2010, 18:28
I suspect that in the next edition there will be a differentiation made between "-" and "0" for characteristics. Specifically that "0" is an auto-fail whereas "-" would mean the thing cannot be affected by anything that operates based on that stat.

But that's just idle speculation.
I really hope so, as GW have been using the different meanings of the hyphen interchangeably within a single line. There's actually three potential ones as far as I can tell:
- Auto fails (treat as zero)
- Stat is never used
- Stat is derived

In the case of the plague furnace the latter is the main case, as its movement is derived from the unit it is with, likewise its leadership is (usually) the character's (though what to do if the character dies is unclear, I don't think the crew have a leadership of their own?). Its weapon skill as well I think is derived from the crew (uses theirs if attacked). So it all gets very inconsistent! It also makes the blade of realities overpowered if used against the furnace (if it hits it instantly destroys it if you use rules as written).

RAW though I don't see that ejection is the logical conclusion? The furnace cannot leave the unit, and the unit cannot leave the furnace, surely that takes precedence?

enygma7
27-02-2010, 19:06
This has been debated to death and further debate will serve no purpose - the points have been gone over repeatedly already. Also, I'm suspicious as to the motives of the OP which seem to be to obtain some some imaginary stamp of authentication from the online community to validate their way of playing this.

In summery, the arguement for the PF/SB not being ejected is that it is defined as a "special kind of mount", i.e. a different or unique kind of mount and not one of the standard kinds of mounts defined in the rulebook. As such, it follows the rules contained within its entry and not any additional ones for chariots/monsters/war machines. Further, just look at it. It obviously isn't a monsterous creature (the "common sense"/non RAW arguement). Further, it was played this way in the WD battle report that co-incided with the skaven release (RAI). Many disagree with this for the reasons you gave, which is fine, but you asked for the counter arguements and there they are.

The official FAQ should be available shortly, so if you want an "official" statement of intent as to how to play it wait for that, until then you'll just have to agree it amicably with your opponent before the game or house rule it which are the only ways of resolving this until then.

scrivener
08-03-2010, 22:12
I'd like to apologise for the mild case of threadomancy. I was involved in that other debate that Bunny of Khaine linked to and was just amused when I found out that he saw fit to post it here as well.

At any rate, in case it hasn't been posted on Warseer already, the Skaven FAQ has been released: http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1000262a_FAQ_Skaven_Mar2010.pdf

Q. If the rider is killed, what happens to the Bell/Furnace?
A. It continues to function normally inside its unit.
The only difference is that all ranged attacks against
it will hit the Bell no need to randomise.

I hope that should put an end to the endless debates on both our forums. ;)

Sooty13
18-03-2010, 21:47
Both bell and furnace can operate on there own ie. special abilites none of which are reliant on the seer/priest. (except movement the unit will still need to push it). The unit pushing it feels safe around the device they are pushing (unbrekable etc) it also acts as a a pretty good battering ram. I dont see any mention of these items being a Monster Mount. I really dont know where over complicated rules are coming from. lets show some common sence.