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Omegakai
26-02-2010, 06:48
I recently had a debate about the order in which fear tests are taken when charging.
I read the rules as follows.
Page 18
Declaring Charges
At the start of your movement phases, the first thing you must do is declare which units will charge.

Page 50
2) Wishing to declare a charge against a Fear-causing enemy
If a unit wishes to declare a charge against an enemy that causes Fear, it must take a test to overcome its fear first.

The questions I have are.
What is the order of sequence, and please provide a sound a logical answer or a ruling form the rule book if able.
The way I interpret the rules are as such.
Declare all charges
Declare all reactions
Take fear tests.

This seems to me to be the most logical order for fear tests.

Ultimate Life Form
26-02-2010, 07:01
Hm... actually, it sounds pretty clear to me. As you quoted, P50:

"If a unit wishes to declare a charge against an enemy that causes Fear, it must take a test to overcome its fear first."

The rest of the passus is pretty clear on that if the test is failed, a charge does never occur as the unit may not declare one, so no charge reactions of course:

P19(Charge Reactions): "After you declare your charges, but before you measure for distance"

The order would therefore be:

-Take Fear Tests
-Declare Charges
-Declare Reactions

JayC707
26-02-2010, 07:06
I don't see it as such...

He declares the charge before he takes the fear test as he would have no reason to take the fear test, otherwise.

The charge was declared before the fear test was taken, clearly, but the charge does not take place until AFTER he's passed his fear test.

Obviously if he fails, no charge will occur.

Ultimate Life Form
26-02-2010, 07:11
I don't see it as such...

He declares the charge before he takes the fear test as he would have no reason to take the fear test, otherwise. The charge was declared before the fear test was taken, clearly, but the charge does not take place until AFTER he's passed his fear test.

The OP asked for rules to back it up, which I provide but you do not. Please prove your point.

P50: 'If the test is passed, the unit may declare a charge as normal.'

Inversion of argument: If the test is failed, the unit may not declare a charge.

Also please tell me how a unit can declare a charge first, then take a test and then lose its right to declare a charge? That would do absolutely nothing as the unit has already declared a charge.

The BRB goes out of its way to make it clear to us that Fear doesn't stop the charge move, but the charge declaration, which is something completely different. I've rarely seen a rule that was that clear in the BRB.

Omegakai
26-02-2010, 07:19
so you would say, that page 50 rule over rules page 18 rule?

Ultimate Life Form
26-02-2010, 07:23
so you would say, that page 50 rule over rules page 18 rule?

I don't know what you mean, I can't see any contradiction here, but yes, as 'Charging' is covered by the basic rules while 'Psychology' is covered by the advanced rules, which are stated to add new elements to the game.

The first thing you do is declare charges, only in some cases Fear may stop you from doing it.

TMATK
26-02-2010, 07:58
...
-Take Fear Tests
-Declare Charges
-Declare Reactions

So if you fail a fear test, you can skip step 2 and move as normal? ;)

I tend to agree with the OP's interpretation. We have to declare our reactions before we know if the charger is in range. I think fear causer should declare reaction before knowing the outcome of the psych test. IMO of course.

Ryofo
26-02-2010, 08:02
I recently had this debate and here's what i came up with

Declare charges
Declare charge reactions
Resolve stand and shoot reactions
Mesure charge distance
Take any neccesary fear/terror tests
Move chargers

For stand and shoot reactions if you read P15 under stand and shoot it say's "This shooting is worked out just before moving chargers, during the move charges part of the movement phase"

And for the fear, on P50 it says "First declare the units intended charge reaction, then test a soon as the the fear-causing unit is determind to be in charge range". Seeing as you dont check if you're in range until the move chargers part of the movement phase the fear test would be one of the last things you do:)

Ultimate Life Form
26-02-2010, 08:08
And for the fear, on P50 it says "First declare the units intended charge reaction, then test a soon as the the fear-causing unit is determind to be in charge range". Seeing as you dont check if you're in range until the move chargers part of the movement phase the fear test would be one of the last things you do:)

Well that has absolutely no influence on the topic at hand as this passage covers an entirely different case.


So if you fail a fear test, you can skip step 2 and move as normal? ;)


No you can't as the rule explicitly states what happens in this case. Note that it says 'TREATED in the same way as a unit that has failed a charge', not 'the unit fails the charge'.

I really can't see where the confusion comes from. What is there to be 'interpreted' about the rule? Just read that $%+# first sentence! Wish to declare a charge? Must take a test to overcome Fear FIRST!

Milgram
26-02-2010, 08:44
charger tests before distance is measured, before charge reactions are declared.
charged unit tests after distance is measured, after charge reactions are declared.

Dutch_Digger
26-02-2010, 10:13
when it is treated as a failed charge because of the test, theres no "stand and shoot", right?

Festus
26-02-2010, 10:29
Hi

Right

Festus

T10
26-02-2010, 11:00
when it is treated as a failed charge because of the test, theres no "stand and shoot", right?

Yes.

-T10

Haravikk
26-02-2010, 11:27
I think Ultimate Life Form is correct here. The way I see it the order is:

Player intends to charge Fear causing enemy.
Unit takes Fear test.
Charge is declared.
Charge reactions are declared.
Charge is resolved.

Think of declaring charges as the unit actually beginning to move, battle cry upon their lips; at this point they're going to end up moving regardless of what happens next, be it into combat or stopping short along the way.
But in order for a unit to work itself up for a charge against a fear causing enemy, it must first overcome that fear, otherwise they aren't going anywhere, so there's no charge at all (and thus no charge reactions against a unit that is busy cowering).

xragg
26-02-2010, 13:50
Some of you are talking about two different fear tests, the potential charger fear test and the defender fear test.

rtunian
26-02-2010, 14:03
if you fail the test to declare the charge, there can be no charge reaction, correct. this is not because it's a failed charge, this is because there is no charge declared.

a failed charge can still take a stand & shoot reaction, because a failed charge is a charge attempt. contrarily, a failed fear test to charge results in NO CHARGE DECLARED, therefore no charge reaction can be declared, since a charge reaction is entirely dependent on there being a charge declaration

Milgram
26-02-2010, 14:26
Some of you are talking about two different fear tests, the potential charger fear test and the defender fear test.

yes, and I clearly stated how to act in both cases.