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theman151
27-02-2010, 05:30
Hi everyone, been a reader of this forum for a while and am relatively new to warhammer (and mini war gaming in general). I have a group of 3 friends that meet every wednesday and we each have an army (say 2500 points each) including skaven, vc, dwarves, & oc and gobs. We've been working our way through the rules with the core book, army books and internet forums, plus a healthy dose of "house" interpretations. Anyway, there's something that our group can't really wrap our heads around, which is, embarassingly enough, basic combat. I appreciate any insight on the following questions the forum members can provide:

1) a. I understand units gain first strike on the charge. Great weapons make units strike last in ensuing rounds of combat. If I charge a unit with ASF rule, do they get first strike?

1) b. what if I charge a unit, and my unit has ASF and so does the opposing unit? do we go to inititive or does it go to the charger?

2) a. say I have a unit with with three full ranks (15 troops) and my opponent has three full ranks. We both have champions, standards, musicians. I make my attacks as normal, and score, 8 wounds (I'm using crypt ghouls or something with more than one attack per model). Now I remove his 8 of his models. Does he get an attack back? Did I kill his champion?

2) b. Say I am in a similar situation as the above scenario, except he has a character like a wight king in his front rank. I again make my attacks on the charge, rolling against the WS and T of the rest of his front rank (say grave guard) and score 8 wounds. Do I still remove 8 models of grave guard and does he get an attack back with the wight king? does it actually make a difference if it's a champion or a character?

Again, I appreciate any insight anyone can offer. Nrmally we can come to a genral concensus, or if not, at least roll a dice for it, but these issues seem so basic that we really want to be clear on the rules. Thanks!

Zaustus
27-02-2010, 06:04
1a. Charging units strike first (even with great weapons) in the turn that they charged. However, ASF trumps charging, so if you charge an ASF unit, the ASF unit goes first.

1b. If both units have ASF, it's based purely off initiative. Neither Charging, great weapons nor anything else matter in an ASF vs. ASF fight. If both units have the same initiative, the unit that won the previous round goes first. Beyond that, you just roll off to see who goes first.

2a. Your 8 kills wiped out all his rank and file troops in the first rank. The unit champion is not a rank and file troop, so unless you specifically directed attacks at him and killed him, he's still alive and gets to attack back. Standard bearers and musicians are just rank and file though, so no attacks from them. He also doesn't lose the standard or musician (it's assumed guys stepping in from the back pick up the banner/horn) until there's no basic rank and file to remove.

2b. In this situation you'd remove 8 regular grave guard from the back of the unit. Only the grave guard unit champion and the wight king would get attacks back. Characters (this includes unit champs) are not rank and file, and attacks must be directed at them specifically if you want to hurt them in combat. Note that you must state which model you are attacking, with all attacks, before you roll any of them.

Milgram
27-02-2010, 08:35
addition to 2a: the champion will die in two cases. a) he is attacked directly or b) there are more wounds than r'n'f models left. in that case the champion is removed by the extra wounds. this only applies to the champion and not to characters within the unit. the champion strikes back unless he is killed. musician and standard cannot strike back if enough wounds are dealt, even though other r'n'f models are removed.

Yellow Commissar
27-02-2010, 16:12
addition to 2a: the champion will die in two cases. a) he is attacked directly or b) there are more wounds than r'n'f models left. in that case the champion is removed by the extra wounds. this only applies to the champion and not to characters within the unit. the champion strikes back unless he is killed. musician and standard cannot strike back if enough wounds are dealt, even though other r'n'f models are removed.

Not true. Attacks directed at rank and file troopers do not carry over to the champion. Ever.

theunwantedbeing
27-02-2010, 16:14
Not true. Attacks directed at rank and file troopers do not carry over to the champion. Ever.

Page 81 disagrees

Ultimate Life Form
27-02-2010, 17:05
Another yay for wrong statements proclaimed as irrefutable truth. :p

Yellow Commissar
27-02-2010, 18:51
Another yay for wrong statements proclaimed as irrefutable truth. :p

My opinion is refuted. I was completely wrong. :o

Milgram
28-02-2010, 02:13
you are excused. always. :)

theman151
28-02-2010, 05:01
awesome. Thanks for the help guys!