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Deff Mekz
27-02-2010, 19:41
Wood Elves are one of the fantasy armies that intrest me greatly, I just love the look and feel. So what would you avid Wood Elf players want from a new army book.

What I would like to see;

1) While I think the free forest is a great themed rule for WE. Perhaps a more integrated alternative might be to include a new spell in the Lord of Athel Loren, that gives Spellsingers the ability to manifest a forest on the board. Let's say a 10 to cast (more or less depending on if there is a range or LoS requirement), scatters 1D6 in a random direction when deployed, stays on the board until a 1 is rolled on a D6 rolled each magic phase or until the wizard casts another spell, and damages any enemy unit it sprouts beneath.

2) I would like Treemen to be less effective, but to have the ability to field more of them. Anyone else think a Last March of The Ents theme would be cool? O

3) Also, one thing I wish we could see more of is the wildlife of Athel Loern, I would love, I mean love! To see units of animals, like bears, wild wolves, bird flocks, sprite swarms and other strange beasts. The wild life of the great forest is so rich it would be great to see done to proper justice. It is not meant to be seen as the WE contoling these beasts, but rather Athel Loren fighting along side them.

4) From a fluff point of view I would love to see Treemen and Dryads with regeneration. Now befoe you have a fit, have the flaming attacks cancel out the regenertion. I think it fits the units well as they are plants after all.

Okay that's what I would like to see, fire away folks!

boxerlol
27-02-2010, 19:52
i would love if a fire burnt down the forest causing them to flee to the ocean, evolve due to chaos or some other magic stuff and become the one race i would play aqua elves, aqelves or to match the current elves the deep elves.

Tokamak
27-02-2010, 19:57
Yeah a difference between ancient treemen and lesser treemen would be awesome.

Maybe a treemen special character that makes treemen special choices.

And a critter swarm (think Disney's Snowwhite) would be incredibly cool.

The Red Scourge
27-02-2010, 19:57
1) the free forest should probably be an available upgrade/item, as of now its a rather wierd game mechanic unlike anything else.

2) Dryads, tree kin and treemen - you've got march of the ents in all shapes and sizes.

3) Beasts are a chaos thing

4) Flaming do cancel out regeneration. But what most people fail to notice, when they propose this, is that the FS save, isn't a physical thing, but because the trees are animated by a spirit. Lets keep the forest spirits a little magical.

I'd prefer it, if they forgot all about the woodies. Its my favorite army, and it really doesn't need any changes :)

Bladelord
27-02-2010, 20:15
1) I love the free forest but the one you always get+a spell cast on 12+ or 15+ making a new forest permanently (& the summoner can continue casting spells).

2) Yup you already got Tree Kin but a lesser treeman as a special choice plus a normal treeman on rare would be lovely (like steggies).

3) Beasts are a chaos thing if they're mutated or like the warhounds. You're not the only one who would LOVE it if the creatures of Athel Loren fought side by side with the elves (not just the trees:P).

4) 5+ reg and a 5+ ward if they don't make tree spirits more daemonic in rules.

I want to see a gigantic Sprite (like a Great Eagle)!

Deff Mekz
27-02-2010, 20:18
3) Beasts are a chaos thing if they're mutated or like the warhounds. You're not the only one who would LOVE it if the creatures of Athel Loren fought side by side with the elves (not just the trees:P).


Now that's just picky:p You know what I meant! Oh and another thing I just thought of.

5) Giving Treemen the ability to throw stones like a Stone Thrower

6) Centaurs. In the fluff of the Glade Riders it says the bond between elf and beast will neve die, even in death. So I had an idea that takes this quite literally, the great forest rebirths them as elf centaurs! I see this as the forest's gift to the elves who ride these beasts, that they will never part from each other.

Lord Malorne
27-02-2010, 20:27
Regen on the dryads and treemen is good, as is the wild life, in a different way though, nothing else you wrote I would like though, if you want *shudders* ents then play wotr or use treekin.

A new book should give forest spirits a real ward save, plus something that can take a Greater Daemon down, bringing chariots back would be nice.

Deff Mekz
27-02-2010, 20:33
Ah Lord Malone I know what your saying but I ike to play things from a fluff perspective, so my views on things I would like to see will naturally be very different from others :) As for WoTR, no thanks I love LoTR's SBG, but no one plays which I came to find out many years ago, but WoTR is not my kind of thing.

Lord Malorne
27-02-2010, 20:37
Ah Lord Malone I know what your saying but I ike to play things from a fluff perspective, so my views on things I would like to see will naturally be very different from others :) As for WoTR, no thanks I love LoTR's SBG, but no one plays which I came to find out many years ago, but WoTR is not my kind of thing.

:eyebrows: Mine was from a fluff perspective.

dogofwar6565
27-02-2010, 20:38
I like the idea of beasts fighting with the army. Get some swarms of birds or maybe some stags. They could even bring back the two beastmaster special characters, wouldn't mind seeing Skaw and Gruarth return to the army. Might be the only one though..:p

Bladelord
27-02-2010, 20:43
Elven Centaurs! ha first I thought :wtf: but now after a minute it would be wonderful. Give them something to take down Greater Daemons you say? buff the Greater Daemon of Kurnus (Orion) and let him stomp on those puny Bloodthirsters! Okay maybe not that, but I agree with you. Chariots with Wood Elves again, no thanks then they'll be too much like Beastmen then (hope you didn't get me wrong here:p). What about some sort of forgotten Artifacts from the time the High Elves colonized the Old World that were a perfect weapon against Chaos in the magic item list?

Lord Malorne
27-02-2010, 20:57
Chariots to much like beastmen? Does that make beastmen like high elves then :p.

kardar233
27-02-2010, 21:13
Nothing, really. I think Wood Elves are one of the most balanced, fun to play and interesting armies out there, and there are plenty of armies that need much more fixing.

It's likely that a re-do would do more harm than good.

ftayl5
27-02-2010, 21:30
Good idea with the beasts thing, however usually the beatsies in the forest are bad guys but perhaps this could work.

My thoughts

1) Treeman should be unbreakable, i cannot picture a treeman running away.
2) Dryads flammable (this from a non-elf perspective)

Lord Malorne
27-02-2010, 21:36
2) People keep saying that, what effect do you people think it will have :D.

Geep
27-02-2010, 21:47
Why do people think Dryads should be flammable? For one thing it wouldn't affect them (1 wound creatures), and on the fluff side- They Are Not Trees. Dryads are tree spirits- effectively the emotions of a sentient forest given form, similar to how daemons are the emotions of sentient flesh creatures given form.

Along this line, the only real change I'd like to see is for the forest spirit save to become a basic ward save, like current daemons have now.

Beasts would be cool (and would be a neat throwback to past game editions), but all elves are supposed to have different defining characteristics on the table top, and Dark Elves are the ones assigned the look of 'beastmasters'. If you're desperate to have some beasts back we do still have Great eagles, stags, unicorns, warhawks and great eagles. Plus you could have 'counts as' treemen or treekin beasts.

Lord Malorne
27-02-2010, 21:49
Dryads are shapeshifters, not spirits in dead wood like treekin and treemen.

Condottiere
27-02-2010, 21:57
You mean classic Grecian mythology? I thought Dryads as defined by Warhammer were those branchy creatures.

knauden
27-02-2010, 21:58
Give them more wood to field on the battlefield...
Many of their abilities, magic and magic items rely on the woods and all you got is a 6" piece of forest to move around..YAY run forest run!

The Red Scourge
27-02-2010, 23:12
2) People keep saying that, what effect do you people think it will have :D.

Love the idea of flammable dryads too :D

Bladelord
27-02-2010, 23:16
Treeman should be unbreakable, i cannot picture a treeman running away.


So you could picture Tree Kin and Dryads to run away?:eek:

Make tree spirits more like Daemons:)

The Red Scourge
27-02-2010, 23:20
Yes, that makes sense. Make forest spirits more like the most broken army in the game. Why not just squat anything but daemons :p

Lord Malorne
27-02-2010, 23:52
What like marines in 40k :p,


You mean classic Grecian mythology? I thought Dryads as defined by Warhammer were those branchy creatures.

Then you have not read the army book :rolleyes:.

R-Love
28-02-2010, 01:04
To be honest, I agree with the Red Scourge - the wood elf book doesn't have any real problems with it, and it wouldn't bother me if they waited for a while, especially since they have such a nice model range (treemen and treekin excluded)

Oh, and
Give them more wood to field on the battlefield...

:angel: Should I? I can think of quite a few things to say...:evilgrin:

Lordsaradain
28-02-2010, 01:12
Nerf treemen and add centaurs.

The SkaerKrow
28-02-2010, 01:29
Honestly, they don't need much. Bring their existing units up to par with the new ruleset, give the Glade Guard Bows rule to all archers on foot, move Eternal Guard to Core, give Forest Spirits a true Ward Save and spruce up their Magic Items/Lore of Athel Loren. At that point, job's a good one.

I'd like to see Ariel get back into the Army Book (along with a new model for her), along with a characters like Naieth, Skaw and Scarloc, but then again I also don't use Special Characters in my games.

CommissarKlink
28-02-2010, 02:34
Wood Elves need more animals!

So I can loot the bears for Kislev!

nightsrage
28-02-2010, 04:29
Skirmishing Treekin would be very interesting to play.

I am all for a true ward save for the forest pirits

More useful magic bows would be nice. I feel a Str 5 bow would really add alot to the army. Similar to the HE Str 5 Bow.

Over on Asrai an idea was mentioned allowing Glade Guard to be taken in 2 groups of 5 to fill 1 core slot.

A total special character revamp. I cant wait to see how they redo Orion and add Ariel, you know they will.

bernoodist
28-02-2010, 06:38
Sprite swams on 40mm bases with poison attacks, with a pestly range attack , say 12" and target unit either moves half or cant shoot missiles

More unicorns, and a Greater Unicorn , M10 , Str 7 , A4 , MR3 at 12", regen

No Dragons , they are not Wood elvish in any real way , bye , replace with bigger Greater Eagles with improved stats and cause fear again.

Pegasus for Hero's mounts

Longbow Multishot at long range , or no long range -1 hit mods or no soft cover -1 mod ( i.e targets in woods )

Bring back shapeshifters, Alter was a good try at this, but didnt go far enough they need to have pets to help attack, bears , puma , hawks etc

Fauns , Satyrs and Centaurs , these are woodland spirits , and make them core if lead by a Treeman or Centaur character.

Make AoN 5+ , its to powerfull and unbalanced , give Ancient regen as Sprite
option

Though as we will loose kindreds and possibly sprites ( moved to magic items ) would like to see a good array of special characters , 3-4 lords and 4 min Hero's.

Lord Malorne
28-02-2010, 09:53
Forest dragons my young man, are certainly wood elfish :). Fauns and satyrs are beastmen.

Condottiere
28-02-2010, 09:57
Wasn't it mentioned on another thread that Forest Dragons may be mutants?

CrystalSphere
28-02-2010, 10:55
When i used to play wood elves in the 6th edition, i wanted to see in the redo (the old redo) some ambush rules like the ones the beastmen had. There were even rumours about it but it was never realised. The only thing i was left with was to use scouts and waywatchers. So yes i would like to see some sort of ambush rule because i think fit perfectly the wood elves and would be my favourite play style.

Grey Mage
28-02-2010, 11:08
Yeah a difference between ancient treemen and lesser treemen would be awesome.

Maybe a treemen special character that makes treemen special choices.

And a critter swarm (think Disney's Snowwhite) would be incredibly cool.

Wouldnt a lesser treemen be called... tree kin?

While most troop units have been getting a drop in price, I have to say that Glade Gaurd, compared to say High Elf Archers *their closest approximation* are doing well for their points.

Treemen, like most units that put such a large value on a single base are very effective for what they do- but as large, flammable, shoot-me! target I dont think anything more than 10-15pts would be appropos.

Seriously, It seems to me that the WEs are doing pretty well as is. Units that could use a hand?

Warhawk Riders should probly get light armor to help them out a bit- hardly game breaking, but a 6+ save on a 40pt model means they dont get the playtime they deserve.

Gladeriders would probly do well with the same upgrade for that matter- or a small points drop, say 20pts a model, +2pts for light armor?

Hail of Doom Arrow is a very powerful item... but at one per army, and one of the few ways to make a truely effective shooting character, three of the five ways of dong so are in the wood elf book. Id actually suggest a point drop to 25pts, 3d6 discard the lowest for number of shots, and of course one use only.

Warhawks as an option for noble mounts, with the ability to join a unit of flying cavalry. 25pts seems reasonable off-hand, but playtesting would surely be required.

Fairie Swarms... forest spirit, S/T 2, 3 wounds, movement 9 with no double for charging... and a small shooting attack, str 2 magical, poisoned, 12 inches, 1 per base... 60pts. Non-base core.

Eternal Gaurd receving always strike first. I cant see them being any worse off than high elf spearmen, and as a special choice.....

War Eagles- few if any players who have ever had access to these have actually used them. But they are a fun and fluffy choice- a "reserves" option, similar to tomb scorpions or the lizardmen special character allowing them to come in from the side table edges. Unit size 1-5.

Lastly, Wild Riders seem like they should have lances. Dont ask me why, but with general improvements in the games over the years it seems right, and hardly overpowering.

Oh, and perhaps a hound unit, similar to chaos hounds in unit size, but as the hounds of orion.

Lastly- Alter Kin should be a specific hero choice, with its own options, scout, and the ability to be a level 1 mage with lore of beasts.

nightsrage
28-02-2010, 11:09
When i used to play wood elves in the 6th edition, i wanted to see in the redo (the old redo) some ambush rules like the ones the beastmen had. There were even rumours about it but it was never realised. The only thing i was left with was to use scouts and waywatchers. So yes i would like to see some sort of ambush rule because i think fit perfectly the wood elves and would be my favourite play style.

I do not disagree with you. I am thinking that Waywatchers special deployment rule of in the open is better then any ambush rule out there such as dwarf miners or beastmen gors/ungors ect. So what I am hearing you say is you would like our forest spirits to get some type of ambush rule?

I dont see much of a point to Glade Guard using ambush similar to the listed above.

Col. Tartleton
28-02-2010, 13:44
Wild Riders should ride on Stags.

Eternal Guard need to look like skinny Spartans from 300.

Stuff like that.

CrystalSphere
28-02-2010, 14:16
I do not disagree with you. I am thinking that Waywatchers special deployment rule of in the open is better then any ambush rule out there such as dwarf miners or beastmen gors/ungors ect. So what I am hearing you say is you would like our forest spirits to get some type of ambush rule?

I dont see much of a point to Glade Guard using ambush similar to the listed above.

Well yeah i agree with you about the waywatchers, the only bad thing is that they are a rare choice, expensive, and i donīt want to field 2 units of 9 just to be able to have a kind of ambush. But yes i know that option is possible.

What i was looking forward mas more to seeing glade riders, glade guard (5 size actually), wardancers, dryads etc. being able to ambush, perhaps with some condition, like needing a forest on that table quarter. What i wanted was a less of a "face to face deployment" and instead having several units that appear on the table edges to form an ambush. I just canīt see wood elves doing a proper order of battle, in my mind they are all about guerrilla warfare.

Emeraldw
28-02-2010, 14:28
Couple things I guess:

-Glade Guard Skirmish naturally

-New Beasts: I was thinking of something like Panthers, you don't see them in other armies, wolves are certainly possible.

-+1 attack on Wild Riders always active, as opposed this "only when they don't charge" crap.

-Army wide Glade guard bows?

-Less focus on trees. I like the free wood, people I play against hate it and you can't use it in scenarios. As a result, i would like the book to focus more on general rules things to give their feel, rather than focusing on trees to get it.

I like Treemen, but I wouldn't mind another large type of "monster" available to Wood Elves.

EmperorNorton
28-02-2010, 15:05
Invisible pink unicorns!

For the most part, though, I like the idea of more forest animals, which the Wood Elf army had before, anyway.
And I'd like to see Ariel return as a special character.

MalusCalibur
28-02-2010, 16:36
Personally, I think the Wood Elf book is currently the one that least needs redoing, unless they plan on reducing the number of available skirmishers! *is often trounced heavily by WE* :D

In all seriousness, though, Treemen hardly need to get any MORE powerful or numerious, and as for 'WE need something to take on Greater Daemons', I point you towards the Treemen. What more do you want?
WE don't really NEED anything. Some new units, like the Centaurs or Spite Swarms, would be a nice touch, as would the return of Ariel, and some tidying up of some rules (like the free forest), and job done.

Lord Malorne
28-02-2010, 16:41
Try a treeman against a bloodthirster with flaming attacks, go on, I bet you will rethink that philosophy :).

Tymell
28-02-2010, 16:48
I agree with a lot of the points made so far.

Dryads shouldn't be flammable, no, as they are woodland spirits.

I too would like to see some more of the forest wildlife itself coming into play, even if it was just some kind of swarm unit. Don't go overboard though.

And the return of Ariel (and maybe one or two others) would be cool also.

Rogue
28-02-2010, 16:57
Nothing, really. I think Wood Elves are one of the most balanced, fun to play and interesting armies out there, and there are plenty of armies that need much more fixing.

It's likely that a re-do would do more harm than good.

I tend to agree with you there. I would much rather have Wood Elves be passed over and have other army books toned down to make things balanced. It makes no sense to ruin good books by beefing them up to match the newer messed up books. I will of course not hold my breath on this happening, we are talking about GW here.

MalusCalibur
28-02-2010, 17:26
Try a treeman against a bloodthirster with flaming attacks, go on, I bet you will rethink that philosophy :).

Perhaps an Ancient with that blasted 'hit on 6's in a challenge' spite? Somehow I don't feel the flaming attacks Bloodthirster will be too happy hitting on 6's...

Lord Malorne
28-02-2010, 17:42
With that many attacks it won't be long and I would rather not take an ancient just so I can slow down a BT thanks much.

nightsrage
28-02-2010, 19:16
The issue with the a Bloodthirster is
1. 7 attacks
2. Hatred
3. Flaming
4. Str 7 vs T6
5. Magic attacks + Str 7 = no armor save and no ward save

To conclude, 1-2 attacks land wounding on a 3+ with no save at all which turns into 2 wounds. The Treeman has 5 S6 attacks, good foundation, but it still takes 4+ hit, 4+ to wound, 6+ armor save and a 5+ ward save. The treeman ancient just getts widdled down, the BloodThirster is also unbreakable while the Ancient can be broken.

The SkaerKrow
28-02-2010, 19:55
I actually don't want to see Wood Elves end up with any appreciable amount of animal units (other than what they already have). Too Disney, and not at all mystical and foreboding. Skaw is about the extent of what I want to see added, in that regard.

jimmysnz
28-02-2010, 22:04
IMO The wood elve book is possibly the most balanced army book out there.

Eternal guard need to have a points drop to bring them in line with other elvish armies and become a core choice - then it will be viable to field them if you want to play a ranked up army.

Warhawk riders need a points drop - and perhaps change their hit and run to the same as terradons - and let them fly through woods.

An extra choice in core, special and rare slots to increase the variety in the army. Core - Forest swam, Special -Way Watchers Rare - Some form of forest beast? and Fey knights. I'm thinking that the knights may be human or elves, but they have sipped of the Grail (so know the secret of who is the lady) and are thus, ethereal forest spirits, 5+ward, 2+armour, St5, T4, 2A.

However my biggest gripe with the current Wood elves is their magic items and the related prices. Some items are downright useless, others overpriced and still one or two others you wouldn't leave without if you want to win.
For example, the oaken armour has a dark elve mirror, except the dark one is 15 points cheaper and is better.

But in the end, I'd rather they didn't ruin the book while it is still playable!

Odin
28-02-2010, 22:41
My main hopes for the wood elf book...

Asrai Archery to apply to everybody.

Lore of Athel Loren to have another spell (as with Dark Elves, High Elves, Beastmen, a spell you can always choose to take, probably Tree Singing, with something else replacing it as No.1)

Forest Spirits to get a 5+ regenerate save instead of ward save (so cancelled by fire, not magic, which seems appropriate).

More sensibly priced unit upgrades - 18 points for a Wild Rider champion or 14 points for a Wardancer champion is just ridiculous.

Unicorns and Great Stags to become 1 wound cavalry, like daemonic steeds etc. And frankly, if the Vampire counts can have a 1 wound flying cavalry mount, I wouldn't mind if Great Eagle mounts became 1 wound as well!

Sort out the Kindreds - a couple are ok, but most are pretty useless or horribly overpriced.

New units:

- unbound forest spirits (basically treekin without the physical body - etherial)

- spirit elves (again etherial, elves who have become forest spirits and lead enemies of the forest astray)

- a new ranked infantry unit of some kind (if the rumours of 8th edition scenarios needing them to capture objectives is true, need some variety)

willowdark
28-02-2010, 22:49
I always thought Branchwraiths should get Bear's Anger as a bound spell, power level 5. I think you'd see them a lot more, as well as Spellweavers.

sssk
28-02-2010, 23:02
As a few others have said, a few tweaks here and there may be needed. I don't use wild riders, but wardancer champions are outrageously expensive compared to just getting another wardancer, and kindreds are a bit of a joke, but for the most part, I'm happy.

One thing I would say is that waywatchers need reducing in points, or else need to become significantly more deadly. Getting the occasional killing blow on what is usually a rank and file bloke just isn't very useful. Sure it sounds good for killing knights, but to get enough 6s to cause them problems you'd need about 12000 points worth of waywatchers (perhaps a slight exageration).

I suppose warhawks could be reduced a little in points too.

Bladelord
28-02-2010, 23:16
GW should give Waywatchers the ability to shot twice and improve their BS by 1 (they're the best archers in the game but still shades have the same BS!).

I can't imagine, okay I can but still...FOREST SPIRITS TO BREAK FROM COMBAT! How theh heck can a Treeman run away? I'm working on some House rules at the moment and I gave forest spirits stubborn (treemen unreakable), increased their pts cost by 2pts/Dryad and 5pts/Tree Kin, maybe they're too good now instead?

MalusCalibur
01-03-2010, 01:43
I can't imagine, okay I can but still...FOREST SPIRITS TO BREAK FROM COMBAT! How theh heck can a Treeman run away? I'm working on some House rules at the moment and I gave forest spirits stubborn (treemen unreakable), increased their pts cost by 2pts/Dryad and 5pts/Tree Kin, maybe they're too good now instead?

For those points costs? Certainly not. In all honesty, the idea that Forest Spirits should be Stubborn or Unbreakable is daft - they are not mindless automatons like Undead, or lacking personality like most Daemons. They are still interested in self-preservation against the odds, especially Treemen who's numbers must be dangerously low as it is!

Forest Spirits really do not need to gain any kind of new strength - all Forest Spirit armies are all too common as it is (making a mockery of the title of the book they belong to). At the moment, they are very good, but not overpowered (with the possible exception of Treemen, perhaps undercosted by a few points or so...).

Not a rant, but come on people. The WE book is already a very strong one, lets not push the Forest Spirits over the edge.

[On an unrelated note, Eternal Guard shouldn't get ASF, just because High Elves do. We had this disscussion before - not all Elves should get it because HE do! (as it happens even they shouldn't really get it...)]

willowdark
01-03-2010, 02:02
I think Odin's suggestion about the forest spirit ward save being a 5+ Regeneration save instead is probably the most intuitive suggestion in the whole thread. That one change alone would bring the wood elves in line with Daemons, which is the only army in the current metagame that they specifically can't measure up to.

Seriously, giving Daemons a true ward save across the army and magical attacks put them miles above WE, which is my only real complaint about the current book. A 5+ Regen save for Forest Spirits in lieu of the current ward save is a great way to reform the rules without hurting the fluff or making them too powerful.

nightsrage
01-03-2010, 02:37
The only problem I see giving forest spirits a 5+ regen save instead of the 5+ genaric ward is, The Athel Loren spell Ariels Blessings was intended to be given to forest spirits ontop of their ward save. My point is giving forest spirits the 5+ regen save you indirectly make that spell 90% obsolete in my opinion.

Lord Malorne
01-03-2010, 08:54
That was exactly my first thought.

zepticnip
01-03-2010, 09:33
forest spirits are in essence daemons so why nto give them the same rules.
a treeman ancient could be like a Greater daemon Dryads like lesser daemons
and tree kin like blood crusher/feind type size maybe there could even be some kind of elf forest spirit mix like daemon prince then again given the limeted usefulness of the chaos one maybe not. Make FS save into a ward save. wood elf beasts would be fun like making the hunting hounds that acompony Orion there own unit id like to see the warhawks lose the riders And become a flying unit and maybe Centaurs or even zoats.
I personally think they might have taken the old raiders special rule away from the Beastmen to give to the Wood Elves given so many of thier units are skirmished .

the most important thing though is to keep it away from phil kelly and andy hoare.

Poseidal
01-03-2010, 09:40
I think Wardancers need a bit of work now, they don't seem as elite as they could be and need to differentiate from dryads. 2 basic attacks with Wardancer Weapons counting as AHW or Halberds (choose at start of combat) for a total of 3 at S3 or 2 at S4 doesn't seem too outlandish. Wardancer Lord gets 5 attacks basic. ASF dance loses the -1 attack but the others seem fine.

Wild Riders could probably do with a bit of a change, maybe also given 2 attacks basic instead of the fury rule, and a points increase.

Talismanic Tattooes maybe should improve your Ward Save by 1 or give a 6+ basic.

Eternal Guard reworked to make them more appealing. They stay special but are always Stubborn. Maybe Eternal Guard style reduces attacks to them by 1 (min 1) for the front rank so they don't die super easily.

Dryads become ranked, but you can buy an Aspect one of which is skirmish while the others are basically what other armies get for weapon and armour options in a way.

The Red Scourge
01-03-2010, 10:31
Luckily the forest spirit magical attacks cancel the Daemons ward saves - oh, darn! :cries:

This is probably the only thing problematic about woodies. Daemons and forest spirits cancelled each others saves in 6th, and this really shook the balance between the two, when DoC appeared in 7th.

The treeman is nicely balanced with things like a STank or a giant, but looks horribly overpriced compared to an A-Bomb or a hydra - not really a problem with the treeman, but more of a problem with those books :)

@Poseidal. Wardancers can hit with 3 S4 attacks on the charge, and it really lies in the wood elf playstyle, that they lose momentum on round two. They're still quite awesome and versatile. Lots of attacks vs. light infantry, KB vs. heavy cavalry, 4+ ward to be a general nuisance - the only really bad thing is the ASF dance, not losing an attack makes it at least nominally useful.

Odin
01-03-2010, 13:24
One thing I would say is that waywatchers need reducing in points, or else need to become significantly more deadly. Getting the occasional killing blow on what is usually a rank and file bloke just isn't very useful. Sure it sounds good for killing knights, but to get enough 6s to cause them problems you'd need about 12000 points worth of waywatchers (perhaps a slight exageration).


Most people seem to agree that Asrai Archery should apply to everyone. That might just be enough to make Waywatchers worth taking, though I'd like to see a return of their traps secial rule (perhaps they should count as being behind a defended obstacle when charged in woods?).

Odin
01-03-2010, 13:28
The only problem I see giving forest spirits a 5+ regen save instead of the 5+ genaric ward is, The Athel Loren spell Ariels Blessings was intended to be given to forest spirits ontop of their ward save. My point is giving forest spirits the 5+ regen save you indirectly make that spell 90% obsolete in my opinion.

Yup, but the Lore would get re-worked at the same time. My suggestion would be that the spell gets easier to cast, and gives a 5+ regenerate to units, unless they are Forest Spirits in which case it improves their regenerate save to a 4+. Someting like that anyway.

Alternatively, keep it at the current casting value, and giving a 4+ Regenerate, but grant Forest Spirits a 3+ Regenerate.

Lord Malorne
01-03-2010, 13:29
Treesinging a wood into a unit would be funny...

'Oi Jim, id dat bush gettin' closer?'

Odin
01-03-2010, 13:33
Treesinging a wood into a unit would be funny...

'Oi Jim, id dat bush gettin' closer?'

Yeah, I reckon if you make a wood hit an enemy unit, the unit should take hits as though they were in the wood.

sergio
01-03-2010, 14:41
i really cant think of anything major to change for them, other than their magic.

since they sort of split the army up between elves and forest spirits, maybe they could do the same thing and adopt 2 lores, orc and goblin style

regular spellsingers and spellweavers get the athel loren lore, which is mostly support/buff spells

but mages that take the kindred to become a forest spirit (and level 1 branchwraiths) choose from a second lore that's mostly offensive/direct damage spells

Odin
01-03-2010, 15:32
i really cant think of anything major to change for them, other than their magic.


I think most people are agreed that at the moment Wood Elves are pretty much fine. Yes, there are some changes that could be made to improve the book, boost some of the less-loved units and deal with the Annoyance.

BUT, I think it was Avian (but certainly someone fairly reliable) who said it looks like Wood Elves will be the army which takes the biggest hit when the 8th edition rulebook comes out. So we may need a fairly urgent update once the new edition hits. Of course, the fact that we don't yet know what the new core rules will be makes it fairly pointless suggesting changes that might only be relevant for 7th edition.

Still, when has the poinlesness of a discussion ever mattered?!

Lord Malorne
01-03-2010, 17:48
Never ;).

I wonder though, this will of course mean the next ed woodies book will be made with 8th in mind completely, unlike skaven and I would go so far as to add OK's and TK's to the lits, work on them has started and they are buit with 8th in mind, but I suspect WE's will get a much better 8th ed point of view than them.

I hope.

nightsrage
01-03-2010, 21:23
You think skirmishing Treekin would be out of balance?

Malorian
01-03-2010, 21:25
What would I want with a redo?

Bear drawn chariots that can go through woods without penalty of course! :p

nightsrage
01-03-2010, 21:32
how about a 10 story tall giant made up up interconnecting dryads, like ants!

LaughinGremlin
01-03-2010, 23:44
Maybe forest spirits like Treemen, dryads, and treekin, while in the soft cover of a forest, get an additional -1 to be hit while being targeted by shooting. I mean, really! -- "...which tree IS the damnable thing, sarge?!"

Treemen should NOT be nerfed. When compared to the stats and points of a hydra, you see my perspective. The hydra is alwys the better choice.

An all treemen army would not be cool. Ilike how it's possible to take one or two... ...with some scrubs (shrubby dryads) :p.

While in the scrub - er, forest... ...treemen and kin could possibly have the regeneration ability in combat, and the option to regain wounds outside of combat during a certain phase. So, a treeman may desire to retreat to a wood to auto heal. If the battle already took place in the wood, then he may want to sit for a turn.

Like Skaven, the WE could have a somewhat expensive spell (Cheaper than the Skaven one of course), which can always be selected, that creates permanent scenery (woods) of a good size. Maybe only a level three or four mage can take it. Make a forest a turn, possibly. Start singin' !

Maybe more scouting available for elves, but not ambush. Scouting is more controllable and less chaotic.

Over-size sprites are silly. The sprite swarms should be the scale of warmaster, and a ton of them should be crammed onto a 40x40 -- possibly sculpted as one big mass which looks like a swarm of flying kamikaze sprites with spears...

Taureus
02-03-2010, 01:25
People forget that the Hydra is probably the worst big gribbly to use as a comparison of cost: effectiveness ratio...And I am not looking to make an argument with any DE players. It's a well known fact that the Hydra is underpriced for what you get.

I can't think of anything offhand that hasn't already been mentioned, aside from the rumour that DoC are getting their due in 8th with ward saves (of any kind) not being allowed vs magic weapons.

So if anything else, they will fall in line with our Forest Spirits.

LaughinGremlin
02-03-2010, 01:27
You're right, I was pushing it with the hydra example. In short, the treeman is not over powered.

Ender Shadowkin
02-03-2010, 01:45
Forest spirit save replaced with Regeneration on 5+

Eternal Guard Stuborn all the time, 1 pt chearper
All Elves get Glade Guard Bow
Tweaks to Magic items (work on those arrows!)
Tweaks to kindreds to fix useless ones (e.g. eternal Guard Kindred)
Hero Level Wizards access to lore of Life (if we can teach damsels . .. )
Forest Dragon to get Forest Spirit rules (pump up the price, I dont care).
New Low cost spites, Dryad and Treekin champs can take 20 pts in spites.

New Units:
Core (need more ranked core as per 8th ed rumors!)
Return of Kinbands, ranked elf infantry, nothing fancy ... 2 hand weapons, etc
Woodland Beasts and handlers.
Special
Spite Swarms - bound spell, MR2
Rare
ThornKin - Treman with lower stats but can artillery dice thorns at say 18"
Great Owl (like eagle, but can scout! . . . Possible as Hero mount)
Some kind of forest shrine/altar/Way Stone
Sentinal tree - Animated Tree, Chariot base, tree like man stats, Fighting platform for archers

Fluff
Re-theme them as an army out for war, like the new beast book
Let them have colonies in forests outside Athel Loren - connected with the "hidden Paths"

shredshredxx
02-03-2010, 02:35
flammable dryads?

none of you seem to understand that whether dryads are trees or spirits or nymphs or whatever doesn't matter...

they're single wound models. whether they're flammable or not doesn't change anything.

Geep
02-03-2010, 04:05
Let them have colonies in forests outside Athel Loren - connected with the "hidden Paths"
They already do- it's just not always clearly stated.

I'd like to see a return of the old acorn from the white dwarf list- thrown like a rock lobber shot with no range limit, creating a 6" diameter wood where it lands. The power of this thing was hilarious- able to stuff up any chariot, ranked unit or war machine with ease. (obviously I'd want it's power toned down if it re-appeared, but it was comedy gold for a way to nerf your opponent's most prized unit)
Ariel used to have a similar ability, although that forest had to be centred on herself.
On the other hand, it can be a pain as a WE player trying to drag a decent looking 6" diameter forest everywhere- not all of us own cars and trees have issues with sturdiness and entangling.

KalEf
02-03-2010, 05:03
I like it guys. IMO it's the elves that need help. Everyone I know playing wood elves, just plays the wood. The wood, is a very usable old book.
Right now our house rules go
1 wardancer weapons and shots by bows with lethal shot, are always armor piercing,
2 tree singing can be used on any tree unit,
3 a couple magic items can be taken as wardancer weapons or spears for 10 extra points,
4 and war dancers get 3 new dances that make them exactly like sword masters phoenix guard or white lions respectively. (characters just get ASF)
(We've also done a bounding assault where they always fight in 2 ranks, and a wisp movement where they always count as defending an obstacle)

I agree with most, the problems being too costly and the weak (though well aimed) shooting.

The way watchers (who cost as much as a knight) rarely kill any, and have to compete with treemen :(

War dancers (witch in my mind, are way amazing and creepy cool!) are terrible IMHO :( they have a cap of 15 models, can not get a magic banner, can't get a banner period come to think of it, no rank bonus, their bladesinger can't get magic items. Sadly, they cost the same as chosen chaos but have -1st, -1T, -1A, I guess the fact they have dances and a 6+ ward off sets the lack of a 4+ armor save and the ability to take marks... in a way. They don't get mundane weapon choices, but get add hand weapon with a charge bonus... Oh and no gaze o gods lol! More power 2 any one who still uses them! You do not get any utility out of them for free! sword masters (at 3 points less each) could take a charge in the flank from these "super elite" fighters, and probably not break a sweat. :wtf:

I don't play them much, but I'm hoping for
1. everyone with gladeguard bows rule, so they might be a shooting threat
2. wardancer weapons and shots by bows with lethal shot, are always armor piercing
3. wardancers fight in ranks, no -1A for ASF
4. Ability to make small forests with magic sounded cool
5. I also liked the idea of pulling the dragons and adding a bunch of other mount options. maybe a pet bear or eagle tooling around on its own that doesn't take up a slot?
6. that acorn thing sounds cool.

The Red Scourge
02-03-2010, 06:22
Sounds like you need to learn how to use wardancers KalElf, they're one of our best and most versatile units.

Trouble with survivability: Screen with dryads

Trouble with armor: Use the Killing Blow dance - which incidentally also makes WDs a great unit for assassinating characters.

Trouble with swordmasters: Shoot them. No swordmasters can catch your wardancers anyway.

Trouble with ranks: Combo-charge with Glade-/Wild Riders/Tree Kin/Treeman to negate those ranks.

Trouble with Fear/Terror: Oh wait, they're ItP ;)

Wardancers are dangerous. A normal sized 7 man unit with a musician can deal out 21 WS6 S4 hits on the charge – thats an average of 7 wounds on a normal T3 sword and board unit at only 133 points.

Skirmished makes you difficult to hit, gives you a 360' charge arc, ignore terrain and maneuverability.

If you can't combine all these assets into something good, then go play DoC, they're much more userfriendly :)

Poseidal
02-03-2010, 07:16
How about something controvertial: Treeman should not be flammable.

It's meant to be a spirit inhabiting a living tree, full of water (unlike Treekin). There's no way it should be as flammable as dead wood or a dry mummy.

ChaosVC
02-03-2010, 07:19
I would love to see some centaurs along with wild riders and glad riders or wild riders rides unicorns. hawk riders to be stronger and tougher.... Infact I think I will do a conversion and make some elvish centaurs to make them count as glade guards and or wild riders.

Kukkelukke
02-03-2010, 09:10
I made centaurs for my Wild riders... It works :D

However i think GW should be very careful with what to change in the WE army. They are IMO the most balanced race.

Warhawks need more save.
Kindreds need to be more useful.
Eg need a 4+ save instead of 5+... And they gotta go stubborn ..'
Asrai Archery to everyone.
Waywatchers need a drop of points or get killing-blow no matter range..
TreeSpirits should get 5+ ward save like demons. Nothing fancy :)
And the spells in Athel Loren Lore should cost less to cast :)

Lord Malorne
02-03-2010, 11:02
Treesinging tree units is a good one, as to ariels blessing, I say make it like invocation of nehek, but only on true forest sprit units.

BigbyWolf
02-03-2010, 11:38
I think they need butching up a touch, with that in mind I propose the Forest Dwarf.

Afterall, we have High Elves and Standard Dwarfs, Dark Elves and Chaos Dwarfs, so I can totally see it fitting. Just imagine a load of the little fellas dropping out of trees (or dropped by eagles/ hawks) on interlopers, yelling primative warcries amd waving clubs etc.

It's no more ridiculous than Fishmen, Angels or some of the other suggestions that crop up! ;)

Odin
02-03-2010, 11:40
How about something controvertial: Treeman should not be flammable.

It's meant to be a spirit inhabiting a living tree, full of water (unlike Treekin). There's no way it should be as flammable as dead wood or a dry mummy.

If they went with the 5+ Regenerate save (as most people agee seems suitable) instead of the ward save, I think that would adequately represent a vulnerability to fire, and you could justify dropping the flammable rule.

The Red Scourge
02-03-2010, 11:45
Nope. The third dwarf army will be fishdwarfs with a crabby attitude ;)

BigbyWolf
02-03-2010, 11:51
Great Owl (like eagle, but can scout! . . . Possible as Hero mount)


But only available for night-time games...surely?


Nope. The third dwarf army will be fishdwarfs with a crabby attitude ;)

Make them Fishdwarfs of Lustria and I'm sold!

And as a sidenote...would everyone else be terrified if they saw a Slaaneshi Dwarf?

Odin
02-03-2010, 11:53
I think the main problem with Wardancers is that there isn't much they can do that Dryads can't do for half the price. Dryads can take a lot more damage and are always S4. Dark Elf repeater crossbows (the bane of my life!) might cause a wound or two on the dryads, but they will annihilate Wardancers. And it's not as though you can avoid them, with Dark Riders having an effective range of 42".

As for the monstrous mounts thing, I'd like to see Wood Elves get access to the Hippogryph. It's a suitably noble animal, and if it's found in Bretonnia the Wood Elves shouldn't have difficulty getting hold of a few. Would provide a nice medium monster mount for characters.

I can't see them getting rid of the Dragon. It doesn't seem suitable to me, but I reckon they're unlikely to make a monster and special character(s) obsolete when the army already has so few options available.

Grey Mage
02-03-2010, 11:57
Yeah, my GF plays WEs and frankly, she stopped taking wardancers the end of last year... as have all the other WE players, because no more than 2 out of a full unit will ever hit the enemy lines. Theyve tried screening, theyve tried the hidden ways, and it just doesnt make much difference- we all know what they might do when they get there, so we make sure they dont.

And on ones yet decided to use them as a vindicator-tactic, simply because theyre not tough enough, or cheap enough, to make it worth it.

Odin
02-03-2010, 12:07
If Dryads end up as a ranked infantry unit, as seems possible (though hardly appropriate), that would obviously leave more of a role for Wardancers. They do need a slight boost or price reduction though - getting rid of the -1A for ASF is a good start.

Satan
02-03-2010, 12:15
I would like... rules that made coherent sense. See the following:

1) No -1A for ASF on Wardancers.

2) No -1A when charging for wild riders.

3) Ward save not negated by magic. Just plain ward save thank you.

/End of coherent rules.

4) Worthwhile Wild Riders. They seem to die every time someone looks at them.

5) Light armour or regular 5+ Ward save for Wardancers.

6) Another ranked unit choice.

7) Flavour for treekin. Preferably replace them with "noble" forest trolls or something similiar.

8) Cheaper treeman.

9) A skirmishing unit of alters.

10) Critter base.

BigbyWolf
02-03-2010, 14:24
If Dryads end up as a ranked infantry unit, as seems possible (though hardly appropriate).

Hey, if they can do it to Beastmen they can do it to bunch of shrubs.

Any suggestions for a big monster they might come up with to add to the list (as that seems to be the way they're going nowadays)?

Lord Malorne
02-03-2010, 14:29
Proper giant spiders :shifty:.

Odin
02-03-2010, 14:54
Hey, if they can do it to Beastmen they can do it to bunch of shrubs.

Any suggestions for a big monster they might come up with to add to the list (as that seems to be the way they're going nowadays)?

I suppose if you planted them in nice neat rows....

If we have a shrubbery, perhaps we should have the Knights who say "Ni" as well.

Big Monster? Good question - I'd like to get a few more beasts in the army. But big gribbly monsters generally don't particularly suit Wood Elves. I think the Treeman pretty much fulfils that role (hopefully with a nice new plastic model of a similar size to the Giant).

ObiWan
02-03-2010, 15:27
A true ward save, forest spirits are basically the only ones affected by rules that used to affect daemons...

BigbyWolf
02-03-2010, 15:35
I suppose if you planted them in nice neat rows....

If we have a shrubbery, perhaps we should have the Knights who say "Ni" as well.

Of topic again, but still a good idea...10 Warseer "Cool" points for the first person to grow his own forest spirit Wood Elf army...extra points if you use Pansies to represent the elves!

Back on topic...

Not into special characters really, but Orion could do with a rework...a 5(or 6?) wound large target with less save than a Goblin in a wet paper bag.

Oh, and if they absolutely, positively have to bring back Ariel...less butterfly, more Poison Ivy please GW...

Odin
02-03-2010, 15:37
On the monster thing, one option might be the return of Elementals. probably a bit cheesy and unoriginal though.

Ender Shadowkin
02-03-2010, 15:39
Fluff
Re-theme them as an army out for war, like the new beast book
Let them have colonies in forests outside Athel Loren - connected with the "hidden Paths"


They already do- it's just not always clearly stated.
.

Unfortunatly they dropped all refrences in the 6th ed book, it appears quite deliberate, which really limits a lot of background battle opportunities. They tried to kinda replace it with ther hidden path stuff, but as far as GW is concernd all woodies live in Athel Loren



I'd like to see a return of the old acorn from the white dwarf list- thrown like a rock lobber shot with no range limit, creating a 6" diameter wood where it lands. The power of this thing was hilarious- able to stuff up any chariot, ranked unit or war machine with ease. (obviously I'd want it's power toned down if it re-appeared, but it was comedy gold for a way to nerf your opponent's most prized unit)
Ariel used to have a similar ability, although that forest had to be centred on herself.
On the other hand, it can be a pain as a WE player trying to drag a decent looking 6" diameter forest everywhere- not all of us own cars and trees have issues with sturdiness and entangling.

The acorn was great fun, but can be totally devestating and lead to a lot of akward situations. If it comes back it should be a 100 pt arcane item.

I'm stilled pissed that they gave our hunting spear to the Beasts in their last book....


Yeah, my GF plays WEs and frankly, she stopped taking wardancers the end of last year... as have all the other WE players, because no more than 2 out of a full unit will ever hit the enemy lines. Theyve tried screening, theyve tried the hidden ways, and it just doesnt make much difference- we all know what they might do when they get there, so we make sure they dont.

And on ones yet decided to use them as a vindicator-tactic, simply because theyre not tough enough, or cheap enough, to make it worth it.

That's bizare every one I know who plays woodies (including me), have had great success from War dancers for many years. I hope they stay nearly exactly the same. The only thing I would change is removing the -1A on the ASF dance.

Aunshiva
02-03-2010, 15:46
Treemen can scoop up rocks and become short range stone throwers (18-24 inches)

Treemen, Kin, and Dryads get regen.

Bows shoot in two ranks.

Light Armor or points reduction in hawk riders.

(Overthe top suggestion) Killingblow in short range on warhawk riders. Now think about it, how else would WE stop hordes upon hordes of heavy cav chaos? That's how.

Wild Riders that get all their bonuses on the turn they charge rather than after. They should be strength 5, 2 attacks each, cause fear, and maybe, MAYBE Hatred. But they get the 6+ ward and the armor for having a horse. Total glass cannons. EASILY destroyed, but kicking so much ass the turn they charge.

Spell singers should have Lore of Aethil Loren, Lore of Beasts, and Lore of Life.

I don't know about having the S4 bows on everyone, but surely AP on everyone not gladeguard. At short range at the very least.

Points reduction on the troops to bring them more in line with, say, DE. Crossbowmen get two shots, AP, and light armor with a shield option for less than wood elves. That isn't right.

Feefait
02-03-2010, 15:54
Beast handlers and shapeshifters should come back.
Giant forest monsters.
Create a couple lines of wood elves - wood elves of the deep forest and wood elves of the crags.
Assassins. Sneaky wood elves should have something like it. Maybe an actual sniper instead of an rank and file assassin. This way you don't have to turn your lord into it.
Centaurs of course. But centaurs in Warhammer are centigors and they're specifically chaos. I'd take Zoats back. :)
Any of might get me to find and assemble and use the wood elves minis that i bought and quickly lost interest in.

BigbyWolf
02-03-2010, 16:24
...shapeshifters...

I just had a similar thought myself, afterall Welfs are supposed to be the more "feral" or beastlike of the old world races...and Warhammer needs some form of Lychanthrope (Bjorn doesn't really count...)


Centaurs of course. But centaurs in Warhammer are centigors and they're specifically chaos. .

Not to sure on that one myself...IMHO Centigors are Centigors, not Centaurs, which are half man-half horse as opposed to half gor-half something else.

Only trouble would be what role these Centaurs would fill, they tend to be an archer in most incarnations, and Welfs have already got Glade/Wild Riders.

Tower_Of_The_Stars
02-03-2010, 16:50
I think wood elves are fine as they are for general play. To make them more competitive in tournaments though they really need a unit that can atleast go someway to tackling the large flyers seen so regularly.

Malorian
02-03-2010, 16:58
flammable dryads?

none of you seem to understand that whether dryads are trees or spirits or nymphs or whatever doesn't matter...

they're single wound models. whether they're flammable or not doesn't change anything.

Unless you fight a unit champ in a challenge and rack up overkill...

Dr.Mercury
02-03-2010, 18:42
I think a fire and flee charge reaction would be nice.
Otherwise perhaps a special rule where if their flee takes them through woods they auto rally and can act normally on their following turn.
I also like the idea of more buffs for the elves, as opposed to the tree folk.
I prefer to play all elf lists

nightsrage
02-03-2010, 20:29
If the W/E had some true throw away troops it would make a huge differance in our game play. While a 98 point dryad unit can be thrown away, I would rather throw a 30 point unit of 5 dogs like in WoC and Beasts ect.

I feel this throw away troop needs some speed exaclty like dogs in WoC. Slow throw away troops would not help us as much imo.

KalEf
02-03-2010, 20:33
Sounds like you need to learn how to use wardancers KalElf, they're one of our best and most versatile units.

lol here we go! yep you got me, they are the best ever... Nope they're crap

Trouble with survivability: Screen with dryads

wouldn't do that too often. the core unit dryads would probably beat them in a fight lol

Trouble with armor: Use the Killing Blow dance - which incidentally also makes WDs a great unit for assassinating characters.

wow, are you kidding me? fine do the math on taking a charge from any knight unit in the game 200 some points vs 200 some points

Trouble with swordmasters: Shoot them. No swordmasters can catch your wardancers anyway.

So the super elite "live to fight" unit should constantly run from cheaper infantry units... and they should soak up the utility of anther unit... ok

Trouble with ranks: Combo-charge with Glade-/Wild Riders/Tree Kin/Treeman to negate those ranks.

The argument you seem to be making over and over is you CAN do stuff with them if you coordinate the rest of your army to it... Great! that can be said for any crappy unit. but I still haven't seen a situation where I wouldn't prefer some witch elves or sword masters... both of witch are cheaper.

Trouble with Fear/Terror: Oh wait, they're ItP ;)

That's true! come to think of it, the mark of slannish is like 7 points a model... oh wait

Wardancers are dangerous. A normal sized 7 man unit with a musician can deal out 21 WS6 S4 hits on the charge – that's an average of 7 wounds on a normal T3 sword and board unit at only 133 points.

Do you only fight knight free empire, and for 1 round? lol yes you should be able to "slightly" beat out an empire sword and shield core unit or hand weapon and shield gobo unit point for point, if you get the charge and use the extra attack option, on the opening round... good for you! your super Elite fighters should not be gloating about how many empire men on foot they can kill if they get "the charge".

Skirmished makes you difficult to hit, gives you a 360' charge arc, ignore terrain and maneuverability.

I love them skirmishing. they should! They need to be more killy and for less points to make it in combat though.

If you can't combine all these assets into something good, then go play DoC, they're much more userfriendly :)

Oh I can (swishing around his wine). Ordinarily I only play the OLD dark elves book, and I only play people who have won a Grand Turny. That got boring. so now in 2000 point games all I ever play is 2 units of 7 goblin wolf riders. I just give the rest of my points to my opponent, and I have never lost... whats with the attitude? My point is, statistically you get less for what you pay out in wardancers. That is all, and it is true! again they cost what chosen chaos do! I know YOU could hit them in the flank with your green dragon, I know YOU can AlWAYS get the charge with movement 5, I know you NEVER have to leave the woods, I know YOUR combats are so decisive that they never go a second turn...

For the rest of us that don't think militia men should cost 2x as much as phoenix guard because I can screen them with more militia men, get the flank with my steam tank, they do a good job of running away, and have an extra attack. I am talking to you. I would like war dancers to have a *well geeze do I even wanna hit them? Those war dancers can &%$# you up!* feel to them!

KalEf
02-03-2010, 20:37
lol sorry guys, i guess my responses were put in the quote... looks like I just hit myself with the war seer noob stick... any how I still think it's fairly obvious how i feel.

Kelderaith
03-03-2010, 00:34
I like most of the basic changes proposed by many, which means changing WE the least amount possible but buffing the bad choices up to par with the rest of the book (and the metagame too).

One of the thing I would like personally is a change in their magic. Beast and Life are appropriate, but hardly any offensive magic can be taken, and Athel Loren is a nice lore, but again more supportive than truly offensive. What I would like is maybe an elemental view on their lores. After all, WE seems to burrow a lot from an animist perspective on life and magic (spirits), so it would be nice if they had access to elemental lore (like Fire/Wind/Water/Earth, or the chinese version of it being Fire/Water/Earth/Metal/Wood). Would really make them kind of unique to have quite a few lores by themselves (a bit like chaos) instead of just 1 (like DE and HE).

WE needs tweaks not major shifts, as opposed to some other armies, that's why they are not a priority, and probably won't be for a good year and a half / 2 years imho.

Lord Malorne
03-03-2010, 00:42
That and the model range is superb :D.

Spiney Norman
03-03-2010, 12:47
Most people seem to agree that Asrai Archery should apply to everyone. That might just be enough to make Waywatchers worth taking, though I'd like to see a return of their traps secial rule (perhaps they should count as being behind a defended obstacle when charged in woods?).

When you say "Asrai archery" do you mean the glade guard longbows rule? Asrai archery (not suffering the -1 to hit penalty for moving) does apply to everyone...

Maybe it could apply to all non-mounted units, it seems to me it ought to be somewhat harder to shoot from the back of a horse than when standing on firm ground.

O&G'sRule
03-03-2010, 13:55
Non skirmishing dryads, perhaps with their altering (wardancer like) abilities returning too. Tbh if you gave the current book a few decent magic items I think theyd still be great

Odin
03-03-2010, 16:36
When you say "Asrai archery" do you mean the glade guard longbows rule? Asrai archery (not suffering the -1 to hit penalty for moving) does apply to everyone...

Maybe it could apply to all non-mounted units, it seems to me it ought to be somewhat harder to shoot from the back of a horse than when standing on firm ground.

Yes I do indeed! Sorry, had a bit of a brain-fart there.

Sygerrik
03-03-2010, 20:02
I'd like to see the various types of forest spirits more differentiated. Right now there's little, medium and big, all of which are hitty, with varying degrees of hard-to-kill-ness.

Maybe Dryads are small, skirmishing units with Hit and Run like Warhawks, Tree Kin are heavier skirmishers with impact hits and lots of high-S attacks, and Treemen are slower and less killy but Stubborn Ld 9 with 2+ scaly skin (so hard to shift, good at tarpitting). Maybe Cloud of Spites could be a flying, ranged-attacking Forest Spirit or a bound spell caster.

Emeraldw
04-03-2010, 00:52
I'd like to see the various types of forest spirits more differentiated. Right now there's little, medium and big, all of which are hitty, with varying degrees of hard-to-kill-ness.

Maybe Dryads are small, skirmishing units with Hit and Run like Warhawks, Tree Kin are heavier skirmishers with impact hits and lots of high-S attacks, and Treemen are slower and less killy but Stubborn Ld 9 with 2+ scaly skin (so hard to shift, good at tarpitting). Maybe Cloud of Spites could be a flying, ranged-attacking Forest Spirit or a bound spell caster.

Different kinds of spirits spring to my mind instead. All those have a place, but I would like to see some ethereal elves of some kind. We have this "spirit" connection to the forest, lets use it! Spirits take on the form of a fallen elf and live to defend the forest or something.

Drayds with hit and run would be cool as it makes them more flexible to charge in, kill a few then back out (this is all under 7th ed rules of course).

Treekin make sense as the ogres of the Wood Elves. massive, brutal and killy. Treeman are only ld 8 btw, but if they were 9 I would be happy to trade an attack for it :D. My treemen used to be more tarpits than killers anyway.

Geep
04-03-2010, 02:06
I really don't want to see more throwaway units for WEs. That just doesn't suit the army theme in my opinion. If you really need one we do have great eagles- these things have so many uses...
I also don't want to see a heap of 'killy' spells added for Wood Elves- there is no (and shouldn't be a) win-button for this army. The spells support other units, making them better at doing what they do without replacing the need for the unit in the first place. WEs are a difficult army to use well- they require combined arms tactics and planning far more than dice luck- I'd hate to see them lose this play style.

Sygerrik
04-03-2010, 02:23
I think Tree Kin should represent the younger, more aggressive forest spirits. Hatred, S5, impact hits, with a "Despoilers!" rule granting them more attacks the more wounds the unit suffers. Dryads would be more mischievous and flighty, but in a dark way, like a kid that pulls the wings off of insects to see what they do-- they don't get just how breakable humans are, but even if they did, they wouldn't care. Treemen would be the eldest forest spirits, sort of melancholy-- they're resigned to their fate, but they want to preserve their way of life as long as they can. I picture sad old treemen wading into battle and planting their roots. Stubborn Ld 9, grant a like a second BSB to nearby units (who are inspired by their example), T6 W6 2+ save/5+ ward, but only 2 or 3 attacks and the return of Tree Whack. If they die the army gains Hatred of their killers.

The Red Scourge
04-03-2010, 09:04
If the W/E had some true throw away troops it would make a huge differance in our game play. While a 98 point dryad unit can be thrown away, I would rather throw a 30 point unit of 5 dogs like in WoC and Beasts ect.

I feel this throw away troop needs some speed exaclty like dogs in WoC. Slow throw away troops would not help us as much imo.

Well, those 96 points of throwaway troops. Are tougher, harder to hit, cause fear, are ItP and they even pack a decent punch in close combat :)

ChaosVC
04-03-2010, 09:09
Actually, I believe glade guards should be drop from the list or at least redesigned for synergy purpose.

Grey Mage
04-03-2010, 09:12
Why? Glade Gaurd are a wonderful unit, and the backbone of my GFs forces... frankly, the scariest units on the field has to be those and treemen.

Id hate to see glade gaurd gone.

scarletsquig
04-03-2010, 10:53
Naked female elven centaurs.

The Red Scourge
04-03-2010, 11:45
Oh I can (swishing around his wine). Ordinarily I only play the OLD dark elves book, and I only play people who have won a Grand Turny. That got boring. so now in 2000 point games all I ever play is 2 units of 7 goblin wolf riders. I just give the rest of my points to my opponent, and I have never lost... whats with the attitude? My point is, statistically you get less for what you pay out in wardancers. That is all, and it is true! again they cost what chosen chaos do! I know YOU could hit them in the flank with your green dragon, I know YOU can AlWAYS get the charge with movement 5, I know you NEVER have to leave the woods, I know YOUR combats are so decisive that they never go a second turn...

For the rest of us that don't think militia men should cost 2x as much as phoenix guard because I can screen them with more militia men, get the flank with my steam tank, they do a good job of running away, and have an extra attack. I am talking to you. I would like war dancers to have a *well geeze do I even wanna hit them? Those war dancers can &%$# you up!* feel to them!

Hey, I just post a little advice on how to make the most of your dancers, and list a few things that they can do compared to chosen and swordmasters.

You really hit the nail on the spot, when you ask, whether I always combo-charge, and yes of course I do thats the key to winning with wood elves. We've only got two units designed to take a charge; Eternal Guard with a noble and the Treeman, anything else will be instantly vaporised.

In short. Wood Elves is the most maneuverable army in the game, and that is their strength. This also makes them the most player dependant army in the game - as movement is the only phase not ruled by dice. But it also gives the player control over the game like noone else, and enables you to pick and choose your fights as you see fit.

Oh.. And if you want a WD unit, that will make any opponent think twice, try a WD Lord with AoN, Blades of Loec and Amaranthine Brooch with a BSB with Amber Pendant and Wildfire Blades in a unit of 7-8 dancers with bladesinger and musician. You'll be able to take charges, decapitate most opponents and should you be forced to take a break test, then a re-rollable Ld 10 is nothing to sneeze at :)

Condottiere
04-03-2010, 12:17
Naked female elven centaurs.Naked females elves, would be enough.

Odin
04-03-2010, 12:18
Different kinds of spirits spring to my mind instead. All those have a place, but I would like to see some ethereal elves of some kind. We have this "spirit" connection to the forest, lets use it! Spirits take on the form of a fallen elf and live to defend the forest or something.


This is what I was thinking with my suggestion earlier. I'd like to represent the tales of outsiders getting lost in Athel Loren, confused by ever-changing pathways or led astray by elves pretending to help them. I'm thinking of a mage who essentially becomes at one with the forest, losing his physical form. Either as a Kindred upgrade for a character, or (preferably) as a rare choice. He could have a bound spell along the lines of the Slaaneshi tittilating delusions, making an enemy unit wander off in the wrong direction. Or perhaps making an enemy unit count as if they are in difficult terrain, or doing something to confuse enemy scouts, making the WE side more likely to win the roll-off for placing their scouting units first. Might be linked to Loec, as the trickster god.

I'm thinking something like this:

Spirit Guide (Rare Choice) - about 150 pts?

Normal Elf Stats

Special Rules: Etherial, Forest Spirit

Lost in the forest
If both armies have Scouts, a Wood Elf army which includes at least one Spirit Guide may force the enemy the re-roll their dice after both players have rolled.

Into thin air
If the Spirit Guide is charged by any enemy unit, he is removed automatically. The charging unit is moved a full charge distance as though the Spirit Guide had fled from the charge and been caught.

Bound Spells
Once per magic phase, the Spirit Guide may cast one of the following Bound Spells at power level 4:

It's this way!
(basically titillating delusions, but the enemy may take a Ld test on 3D6 discarding the lowest dice, to try and resist)

Where are we?
Pick an unengaged enemy unit to target. If the unit is within 18" of the Spirit Guide, they count as being in difficult terrain in their next movement phase.

What was that?
Pick an unengaged enemy unit to target. If the unit is within 18" of the Spirit Guide, they must take a Panic test.

Clearly that's just an idea, would need to be thought through properly.

theunwantedbeing
04-03-2010, 12:33
Flesh golems!
Pony cavalry!
Some sort of tank!

Wait....wrong army. Ignore the above :rolleyes:

Seriously thought.

Glade guard longbows need re-naming so everyone with a bow at least has access to them and the bow being used doesnt get in the way of the arrow or skill used. (ie. waywatchers can use magic bows and still get killing blow, or magical arrows and retain the killing blow effect as well as the magical arrow effect)

Wardancers need to be made properly good, currently they're aweful.
ie. ASF, 2 attacks, Strength 4 and perhaps even leadership 9
Dryads could do with being weakened slightly (in4 not 6) and having their ward altered to be negated by flaming attacks, not magical ones. (same for any forest spirit I guess).

Treemen need a boost, possibly even different forms.
ie. there would be a basic treeman, and upgrades or several types of treemen (much like with Beastmen there are several types of "giant" in the form of the gorgon, cygor and such).
Strength 8, D3 wounds is the sort of strength I'm thinking of. Treeman should be really really strong (they are one of the few creatures in the world who are literally capable of smashing down stone walls with their fists).
Some ability to throw a stone would be quite good as well (as a kid I always thought that the darthu model was able to, just by how it looked).

The Wood Elf magic lore could do with a small change.
Treesinging as the spell 0 spell of course, with a new spell added (not sure what).

Some sort of cheap forest swarm would be nice as well, just because its something no other elf gets and fits the theme.

Treekin need a boost as well. They're a bit slow and expensive at the moment. Maybe let them scout as they are made from bits of debree afterall.
You could potentially allow all tree-type units to scout(in woods anyway).

They arent desperately in need of a re-do yet though.

The Red Scourge
04-03-2010, 17:06
Spirit Guide (Rare Choice) - about 150 pts?

Normal Elf Stats

Special Rules: Etherial, Forest Spirit

Lost in the forest
If both armies have Scouts, a Wood Elf army which includes at least one Spirit Guide may force the enemy the re-roll their dice after both players have rolled.

Into thin air
If the Spirit Guide is charged by any enemy unit, he is removed automatically. The charging unit is moved a full charge distance as though the Spirit Guide had fled from the charge and been caught.

Bound Spells
Once per magic phase, the Spirit Guide may cast one of the following Bound Spells at power level 4:

It's this way!
(basically titillating delusions, but the enemy may take a Ld test on 3D6 discarding the lowest dice, to try and resist)

Where are we?
Pick an unengaged enemy unit to target. If the unit is within 18" of the Spirit Guide, they count as being in difficult terrain in their next movement phase.

What was that?
Pick an unengaged enemy unit to target. If the unit is within 18" of the Spirit Guide, they must take a Panic test.

Clearly that's just an idea, would need to be thought through properly.

I like it - I've even suggested something similar on asrai.org :p Its much more in line with the current army than the usual dreams of cuddly teddy bears and voracious wolves, and its something unique instead of a copy/paste big guy :)

EDiT: Its funny, it took a wishlist for me to notice that dryads are I6, I always assumed they were 4, and I doubt it has ever been relevant :D

KalEf
04-03-2010, 18:21
Wardancers need to be made properly good, currently they're aweful.
ie. ASF, 2 attacks, Strength 4 and perhaps even leadership 9



I think the main problem with Wardancers is that there isn't much they can do that Dryads can't do for half the price. Dryads can take a lot more damage and are always S4. Dark Elf repeater crossbows (the bane of my life!) might cause a wound or two on the dryads, but they will annihilate Wardancers.



Yeah, my GF plays WEs and frankly, she stopped taking wardancers the end of last year... as have all the other WE players, because no more than 2 out of a full unit will ever hit the enemy lines.


I think Wardancers need a bit of work now, they don't seem as elite as they could be and need to differentiate from dryads.

And No just because an Idea is popular doesn't make it right... In this case it is both though.

Pleeeeeeese stop telling me about what a great general you are and how everyone should bow down to you awesomeness as an indication of how good wardancers are-- a sword master can kill a goblin with a wet towel. It does not mean the wet towel is better than a sword.-- you are the swordmaster we are all goblins. :rolleyes:



You really hit the nail on the spot, when you ask, whether I always combo-charge, and yes of course I do thats the key to winning with wood elves. We've only got two units designed to take a charge; Eternal Guard with a noble and the Treeman, anything else will be instantly vaporised.

In short. Wood Elves is the most maneuverable army in the game, and that is their strength. This also makes them the most player dependant army in the game - as movement is the only phase not ruled by dice. But it also gives the player control over the game like noone else, and enables you to pick and choose your fights as you see fit.

I guess I missed the mark actually, because I never asked this. I stated you DO always manage this. Not, why would you bother to coordinate your charges? I really hope this isn't new information to anyone on warseer. Still none of this has anything to do with the pound for pound cost of wardancers vs another unit. As I joked earlier; militia men, halbreaders, huntsmen, and the like should all be almost 20 points a model, because someone could flank with a steam tank... No, you say?... they don't have the abilities to back up those kind of points? well compared to other units, neither do wardancers.



Oh.. And if you want a WD unit, that will make any opponent think twice, try a WD Lord with AoN, Blades of Loec and Amaranthine Brooch with a BSB with Amber Pendant and Wildfire Blades in a unit of 7-8 dancers with bladesinger and musician. You'll be able to take charges, decapitate most opponents and should you be forced to take a break test, then a re-rollable Ld 10 is nothing to sneeze at :)

You're kidding me right? Assuming your naked 8 man special unit housing your lord and bsb ever do make it into CC (and Again I'm sure you are never magiced or shot and you never have to leave the woods for any reason) I'm sure everyone on warseer can think of several flighty lord hero and special unit combos in every book that will statistically take them out. by a lot! :eyebrows:

--- but none of that even matters or was my point ---
For wardancers you have to pay out more than you do for other troops, and you're not getting the equivalent back in bonuses. That's all! You can check my original post again for reasoning.

--- I guess snarky and offensive is the way to go on warseer? though it runs contrary to how I like to do business--- :angel:
YOU need to look at the other books and see how the wardancers are getting "the short end" If the people you play with let you get away with this crap...you play with lousy players or they just feel bad for you.

zak
04-03-2010, 19:11
Certainly no chariots.

I like the differing aspects for Treeman - Oak +1s, Willow +1A etc.

Dryads possibly having a rule allowing them enter from any wood as reserves, but then reduce there power by limiting attacks and toughness, or ranking them.

Cohinor
04-03-2010, 19:53
I'd love to see the Waywatchers get their "traps" back that they had to secure the wood they were in. Allways hillarious fun when someone charged them in the wood.

Gladeguard Longbows should be available for every wood elf, not just the Glade Guard itself.

cheers
Cohinor

KalEf
04-03-2010, 21:33
This is directed at any one who knows the fluff--
Do the forest spirits that inhabit the tree kin and the treemen inhabit dead trees or living trees? wet, healthy, thick wood does not burn that well. heck, in firefighting situations, a lot of the time you prefer a heavy timber supporting column to a steal one. If living trees, then GW doesn't even need to make most of them flammable at all! With the varieties people have asked for, they could throw in a "super ancient" one that was flammable with 2 extra wounds.

Though, I think flammable for them is a fine rule for game dynamics.

btw, please do not take a blow torch to a moist tree and a moist cow to see how long they take to burn trough. I think we can trust my firefighting book on this.

Poseidal
04-03-2010, 22:35
Treeman = Living Tree
Treekin = Dead Trees

Col. Tartleton
04-03-2010, 23:22
Model Wise:

Orion becomes The Green Man. I'd like to see him as a more literal King in the Forest. As in the greatest of Ancient Treemen (bigger then the giant and done in plastic for monetary reasons). Pretty much a lush centauroid of grey brown woody roots and bark with a wet green wood type humanoid torso rising forth, where there would be hair it's foliage, so like viny chest hair, a mossy mane/beard, leaves along his forearms, and horns that are great jutting branches. Also style him in a mix of elven motifs and nature so he looks similar to an Eldar Avatar since they're a similar idea. Pretty much a model cool enough to justify new people starting a wood elf army tbh.

Ariel becomes Poison Ivy. Naked greenish pale maiden with a cascade of autumn leaf colored strawberry blonde hair and golden eyes. Done in metal. Rising out of a tide of strangler vines and creepers (covering the groin and legs of course to keep it PG for the kiddies. Roses all over the vines and a healthy number of humanoid skeletons amid the overgrowth.

The existing character models are great though, so limit it to those two.

New plastic Tree Men models that look like Actual Trees lorded over by a spirit. Ditch the legs and give it tentacled roots, a tall body thats really tall and a semi human (elven) face shaped into the trunk with the arms being formed from the largest branches and draped in foliage as with the rest. As said earlier they should be regal and somber looking ent like treefolk with a hard edge to look warhammerish. Nothing some skulls can't fix.

New plastic Treekin Box that look like smaller tree men albeit without the foliage and with more dried and broken bits and such. A bit grimmer looking, bones among the boughs, some sort of mechanism to make them highly interchangeable to make them unique looking. I'd like to see some attempt at showing them eating something either by dropping them into their maw with a branch, tearing them asunder with their branches, or pumping them full of roots and sucking them dry of vital fluids. Hell a Treekin with a still living human being vined up between the roots trying to grip onto the bark would be neat.

Then all else they could really need are new metal eagles and or hawkriders and any new birds they devise. Not needed much but would be nice to update them since they're useful for High Elves. Or if crazy a few extra way watcher models or something.

Thats 1 Plastic Special Lord of Destiny (Which may be the first of its kind, are there any other plastic Special characters?)
1 Metal Lord (err lady)
1 Big plastic monster, 1 plastic ogre sized box, and some metal birds

Very doable

Lijacote
04-03-2010, 23:57
Even if I don't play wood elves, it's apparent to me that it's a really good book, and I absolutely adore almost all of the models. I only want that they avoid going the route of ruining the book, replacing good models with poor ones...

Though, I guess the Wild Hunt could use some help, as could the Eternal Guard. Would be nice to see a plastic Orion, perhaps new wild riders and rules for the Eternal Guard that aren't so lackluster.

The Red Scourge
05-03-2010, 00:08
--- I guess snarky and offensive is the way to go on warseer? though it runs contrary to how I like to do business--- :angel:

Yes, you obviously got that one. As you come off as quite offensive. Calm down a bit, take a deep breath and stop trying to start a flame war..


YOU need to look at the other books and see how the wardancers are getting "the short end" If the people you play with let you get away with this crap...you play with lousy players or they just feel bad for you.

I think you've missed the point. I'm not saying wardancers are the über killy unit (of doom + 2 returning) and the answer to all wood elves prayers. I'm just saying that they do have their uses, that you can get a lot out of using them and suggesting some ways to do so. They won't get changed any times soon, so you might as well make do with what you've got instead of just giving in to whineseer :p

The message: Some people have success with wardancers and see no problems with the unit. Its up to you, whether you will use this information, or just dismiss it as the rantings of a pompus **** with lousy opponents, who have no grasp of the game.

ChaosVC
05-03-2010, 01:17
What is the actuall name of those useless sturbon spearman? Eternal guards or glade guards? i think I manage to confuse myself between this two names.

Ender Shadowkin
05-03-2010, 01:55
This is directed at any one who knows the fluff--
Do the forest spirits that inhabit the tree kin and the treemen inhabit dead trees or living trees? wet, healthy, thick wood does not burn that well. heck, in firefighting situations, a lot of the time you prefer a heavy timber supporting column to a steal one. If living trees, then GW doesn't even need to make most of them flammable at all! With the varieties people have asked for, they could throw in a "super ancient" one that was flammable with 2 extra wounds.

Though, I think flammable for them is a fine rule for game dynamics.

btw, please do not take a blow torch to a moist tree and a moist cow to see how long they take to burn trough. I think we can trust my firefighting book on this.

The treekin are spirits in dead trees (i do not know the moistness level of the dead wood :D ). Treemen are alive creatures unto themselves. I think the general consesnus at GW is that trees are what go in fire places so tree men are flamable (similar to how very small rocks will float) . I wouldn't try to get into using actual logic on them ;) ) .

theunwantedbeing
05-03-2010, 10:54
The treekin are spirits in dead trees (i do not know the moistness level of the dead wood :D ). Treemen are alive creatures unto themselves. I think the general consesnus at GW is that trees are what go in fire places so tree men are flamable (similar to how very small rocks will float) . I wouldn't try to get into using actual logic on them ;) ) .

Realistically, dwarves are much more flammable than treemen or treekin.

Sygerrik
05-03-2010, 14:38
Realistically, dwarves are much more flammable than treemen or treekin.

All that ale; they'd light up like stubby torches.

KalEf
05-03-2010, 18:01
lol gotcha

with that in mind, I will petition to make all the witch elves flammable too. And some kind of super flammable that won't just affect hags and such!

what else do we burn? MORE WITCHES!!!!

the_picto
05-03-2010, 18:26
All that ale; they'd light up like stubby torches.

Ale and hair. Flammable as an army wide rule in the new dwarf book.

tw1386
05-03-2010, 20:16
As seems the tradition with the newer books, they could get a super spell that doesn't seem that bad.

Something along the lines of "Wrath of the Forest"

15+ (just a made up number as I have no idea how the spell cost value works)

All forests become impassable terrain for all non Wood Elf Units (Pretty much everybody else). Lasts until the casting players next magic phase.

All units inside or or partially within a wood take 2d6 str 4 hits, and if any casualties are taken must immediately fall back 2d6" (pretty much an auto panic but aren't fleeing) if they don't make it out of the forest, they repeat the process until they are out of it. They fall back towards the closest edge of the forest, if it's blocked by impassable or the baord edge they go towards the area where they can leave the woods.

KalEf
05-03-2010, 23:56
well at least were all agreed, witches and long beards should have some kind of super flammability. Maybe they could be wounded by flaming attacks on a 2+. also witch elves should ignore water terrain because you can build a bridge out of them. lol

I like the stronger magic Idea because it is pro elf. I also like that your super spell doesn't involve me picking up my entire unit of minos and removing them from the table (I mean c-mon they were the ones from the old book, not even half as killy as the new ones) :cries:

That would be something I would "want from a wood elf redo"

On the pro elf note (and I know it may be sacrilege to some :shifty: ) I'd like their shooting to be more impressive. Not in a bolt thrower, stone thrower, cannon sort of way, but a volley after volley of well aimed arrows sort of way.
I think the asrai archery is cool, but it's only half as good as having +1 BS. plus after you hit with your well aimed volley, you have to wound with st 3 and get past armor. :(
For me I would like to see a lot more arrows in the air and have them just slightly more effective.
I would change Asrai to allow all wood elves to shoot as many times as they had attacks. following the multishot rules
Allow GG to fire in 2 ranks
Have a GG bow upgrade option for most shooty units.
I'd let the way watchers upgrade as many people to shadow sentinel as they wanted and have the SS have 2 attacks
obviously, there would need to be some points shuffling and maybe some people would need 1 more BS. With the right finagling though, this would help the Elves' shooting a decent amount, without having to resort to bolt throwers and the like.

that is something I would want from a Wood Elf redo :D

Condottiere
06-03-2010, 09:11
If archers have skirmish, a large bunch of them can fire off volley after volley, in comparison to missile units that are ranked with a 90 degree view, and because of space considerations, have their frontage halved, with movement penalties.

KalEf
06-03-2010, 10:09
Yep, you sure do get a lot of bonuses for skirmishing with shooty units. As it stands right now, I believe you can only upgrade half your GG to have skirmish/scout and they end up costing like 50% more (maybe 40%), plus they loose their bows... That seems a bit much. When I get my WE book back from my brother, I'll have to check that. It couldn't have been that bad!
I was hoping for the that "fire in 2 ranks" as a freebie bonus. But if they had the 1pt plain skirmish option like some books have and did not loose their bows, that would seem useful and appropriate to me.

Pinocchio
06-03-2010, 12:37
eternal guard being stubborn all the time

pixie swarm

decent core scouts

bolt trower bow

normal ward save on forest spirits

decrease the prices for all the troops