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Samus_aran115
28-02-2010, 02:36
I personally want better HQ options, Half-usable dreadnoughts, storm bolters, higher transport capacity on the the land raider and the option to give obliterators a chainfist. Not totally sure where that last one came from. :)

DuskRaider
28-02-2010, 02:50
A good codex with actual options and balance, that's all I want.

ColonalKlink
28-02-2010, 02:53
no storm bolters, other than that what you want is reasonable, for me..

1: some way to better reprisent the legions

2: some new stuff, i really mean new, not a land raider crusader with spikes sort of thing

3: Alot more character (not characters) to define just how diferent C:SM's really are, something similar to what the SW's get, but downsides too, like: Warrior incarnate( +d6 attacks) downside, crippleing pride(such is his belief in himself and his skills the character never fails to hit, any misses hit his own unit, if alone the character just misses but must take a ld test at end of combat or fall back)

Samus_aran115
28-02-2010, 02:57
....:)

Me too. I doubt I could even write all the problems with the codex as a whole here.....It seems like there's waaay too much emphasis on special characters for CSM.. Who cares about huron blackheart and his ridiculous familiar?Who cares about fabius bile? Give me a usable Chaos lord instead. Or scouts.Or a damned-legionaire-ish unit type. Something...

Why no storm bolters? If they really wanted them, they could take them from the imperials. Or would they be broke? Doubt it. Regular SM termies get them for nothin. All we get is twin-linked bolters. :(:(

ColonalKlink
28-02-2010, 03:42
i dont want storm bolters simply because i want there to be more diference between CSM codex and the SM codex, on another note though i find Combi bolters to be far more effective than storm bolters simply because of the re-roll and the ability (no re-roll in this case) to take a flamer, plasma or melta (not sure on the plasma, cant remember) strapped to it, SM only get a Cyclone, H flamer, or ass cannon... thats it no other options, CSM termies are heaps better albeit more expensive.... ah! another thing to change... dedicated termy squads please! and have chosen termies with the options, normal Chaos termies with hardly any options :)

DJ3
28-02-2010, 05:42
The best possible scenario is that they pretend the 4E codex never existed and pretend they're updating the 3E codex to 5E rules instead.

DuskRaider
28-02-2010, 06:10
Let me try to write a more detailed and serious response now...

1) More unique options. It's a fact that we've got NOTHING new in the 4th Edition codex that you couldn't get in previous ones. In fact, we had most things taken away. I'm saying give me Plague Marines, then give me the option to give those Plague Marines Terminator armor, give them Slow & Purposeful (for Relentless). Give me the option to make them Chosen. Hell, even though I wouldn't use them, even Raptors and Bikers.

2) Take a cue from your subsidiary. Those Blight Drones and Blood Slaughterers are great and make a wonderful addition to a CSM army! It seems FW knows what we want more then the main company. Defilers are nice, but they're tired. They want more daemon-engine buddies in their motor pool!

3) I suppose both 2 and 3 could be dropped into 1, but I want to elaborate on them more. Give us list options. Obviously, you really can't lump a Daemon-only list into the CSM 'dex (unless you want to phase out the Daemon-only 'dex, which may not be all that bad), but give us Lost and the Damned lists. Let me take Traitor Guard as troops if I take a Traitor General in one of my HQ slots! Let me throw down 200 Plague Zombies as meat shields for my Death Guard, it would give me good numbers AND it would both work well on the fluff and look just so damned cool.

4) HQ. Make them less of a no-brainer. With my Orks, I find myself hard-pressed to take a Big Mek, a Warboss, or a Mega Armored Warboss. With CSM, if you want to win you usually take a Daemon Prince (which have as much variety and taste as tofu). I prefer to have my Legion led by a Terminator Lord and leave the DPs for Daemons, but I'm at a disadvantage from square one with this selection. Not only that, but if I'm going to throw down a Death Guard Lord, I want him to actually BE a Death Guard Lord, not some guy with the Mark of Nurgle and a paint job to make him look DG. Give me my damn Plague Lord.

5) Separate us from the Loyalists. Take Renegades and either throw them into the background where they always were (and should be), or make an option for generic Renegades that can take modern Imperial equipment. There's no excuse for recently turned Terminators to be using 10,000 year old Reaper Autocannons! The Traitor Legions are the main characters of Chaos and they're what make Chaos Marines so damned lethal, not some angst ridden space pirate.

6) My Chaos Marines are 10,000 year old veterans of the Long War, not generic Space Marines with an extra Ld and Attack. Make their stats as imposing as they're supposed to be, and make them cost more points. A Traitor Legion warband is supposed to be small in number, vastly superior to a modern Astartes, and surrounded by Traitor Guard. Give me that!

7) If I see one more character without Eternal Warrior, I swear to god I'll puke.

That's all I can think of right now, it's late and I'm falling asleep at the keyboard.

GrimZAG
28-02-2010, 06:14
Make Possessed actually capable of inspiring fear into the enemy and not random!

shabbadoo
28-02-2010, 06:16
One word: LEGIONS.

It was a horrible idea to downplay what interests most people about Chaos Marines in the first place. Hopefully the lesson is learned, and the Legions will be back and highlighted in a major way.

carldooley
28-02-2010, 06:18
maybe access to pre-heresy tech - hover tanks maybe, or possibly psychic hoods?
also, as much as I'll probably catch flack over this, 2 levels for Lash, basic only to be used on enemy models, upgraded version can target friendly models as well. Also, would it be possible to get squad level psyker powers (currently they are all 'selfish' powers - if beneficial they only target the sorceror)

player21
28-02-2010, 06:19
The only thing I want is, for Robin to write the codex.

nuclearfeet
28-02-2010, 06:28
I just want it to be structured in one of two ways....

If it's going to be a CSM "renegade" codex:
-give us similar equipment to the SM codex. Renegades wouldn't just throw their equipment away in favor of antiques.
-give us units similar to what you would see in a LaTD list
-in fact, this is better off just being a LaTD codex...actual "renegades" are better off represented by the loyalist codex.

If it's going to be a Chaos Space Marine codex:
-GIVE US RULES FOR THE LEGIONS
-bring back veteran skills. These are 10,000 year old space marines, after all...
-I'd like to see rules for daemon engines

You can't have one or the other. Otherwise, you just end up with a codex with mediocre gameplay and mediocre fluff. Like what we have available to us now.



5) Separate us from the Loyalists. Take Renegades and either throw them into the background where they always were (and should be), or make an option for generic Renegades that can take modern Imperial equipment. There's no excuse for recently turned Terminators to be using 10,000 year old Reaper Autocannons! The Traitor Legions are the main characters of Chaos and they're what make Chaos Marines so damned lethal, not some angst ridden space pirate.

6) My Chaos Marines are 10,000 year old veterans of the Long War, not generic Space Marines with an extra Ld and Attack. Make their stats as imposing as they're supposed to be, and make them cost more points. A Traitor Legion warband is supposed to be small in number, vastly superior to a modern Astartes, and surrounded by Traitor Guard. Give me that!


QFMFT

Vaktathi
28-02-2010, 06:32
Removal of Icons, replace them back with Marks. Make each mark do the same thing. This means that Plague Terminators of the Deathguard legion should have the same blessings (and drawbacks) of their power armored brethren, not have fewer of them.

Redo DP. Make more expensive, but make it one of the scariest, fastest, most powerful CC units in the game.

Redo Lords & Sorcerors. Tzeentch Sorceror's should be the most fearsome psykers next to Farseers. Chaos Lords should be something more than a podunk SM Captain

Reduce some weapons costs on Havocs.

Get rid of or at least modify Crazed dread rule so they aren't seen as liabilities and unreliable.

Drastically cut cost on Spawn.

Likewise for Noise Marines

Do something to enhance Thousand Sons a bit. They need a bit of help, not sure exactly what, but their AP3 isn't enough to justify 23pts each and that 4+ invul between the commonality of cover and their armor isn't that amazing.

Reduce champion costs or make them more capable.

Add options for Vet Skills.

Include Daemon Engines (like those in the IA Siege of Vraks books)

Include Dreadclaw Drop Pods




Dump the whole "renegades" thing or re-work it. As is, they appear as Emo-Marines. The current book has very little information on the traditional and background rich Chaos Legions.

Differentiate CSM's more. The current book reduced much of the differences between normal SM's and CSM's. This should be remedied and the forces made much more distinct otherwise what point is there in a CSM codex?

Vaden
28-02-2010, 06:45
Oh, if they brought back the Legions... I miss my 3rd ed dex.

They can keep the same theme that they have going with the Noise Marines, Death Guard, Berserkers and Thousand Sons, but for crying out loud, do none of these guys ever get promoted to Terminators? I want my Berserkinators to have WS5 and Furious Charge, and the +1A from Mark of Khorne. Yes, I am more than willing to pay out the axe for that. Give us options for Demonic gifts like in 3rd.

Finally, make the Khorne DP actually better in CC than the other DPs...Right now without Warptime he is worse than every other DP. Sad panda.

It's really sad that they made this codex so bland and lame, cause I have 6k points of World Eaters that I would love to throw down and expand, but every time I see rules for Chaos Icons, and the Khorne DP...I just can't do it. If they were halfway decent, I'd be dropping crazy money on a Tower of Skulls and some Blood Slaughterers. Oh well GW.

MOMUS
28-02-2010, 06:51
HQ: needs more options, psychic and otherwise along the lines of SW lord and Hive tyrants etc. i liked the Lieutenant option.

ELITES: posessed need to be more daemon and less marine, chosen need something to make them viable -vet skills?, i dont mind the dread but it could be dedicated

TROOPS: better cult troops, beastmen, renegades to have a seperate entry, rhino with more upgrades/options, spawn to have fleet @ 30pts?

FAST ATTACK: yes to the person who said drones from FW! 4 types one for each god w/ appropriate weapons, daemon/warp beast packs, marines riding beasts/daemons, mini defilers 1-3 in a squad?

HEAVY SUPPORT: chaos LR variants one for each power, all tanks can be dedicated, chaos upgrades for them, wierd stuff like daemon spawning warpgates or posession by daemons with psychic powers, 'cult havocs', giant chaos spawn

This would be a start.

Shipmonkey
28-02-2010, 07:16
,spawn to have fleet @ 30pts?



Spawn have Fleet now.

Falkman
28-02-2010, 07:20
A return to the 3rd ed codex design. Not necessarily the exact same (Iron Warriors was a bit unbalanced) but the same line of thinking, small variations in lists making the 5 undivided legions viable, and bigger variations for the 4 cult legions.
Oh, and the return of all those veteran skills, there is no reason whatsoever why my 10 000 year old soldiers are not more experienced than 200 year old imperial marines.

TheWarSmith
28-02-2010, 07:25
Basically, I want to see the 3E codex w/ some minor tweaks.

Bring back the FLAVOR of CSM. It feels like somebody stole my 5 scoop ice cream cone and replaced it w/ vanilla softserve(ok, maybe admitedly swirl).

I'm not entirely sure how to fix chaos lords w/out simply making the other choices more expensive(to make the lord seem like a cheap alternative)

Dark Angels had a faq that let them adapt all their wargear/vehicles/weapons to the most modern space marine version(i.e. landraiders, landspeeder missiles, shotguns, etc.). Let us do that right now for the short term(our landraider SUCKS!!!).

Let the "lesser/greater" summoned daemons have some character to them, instead of just being bland/blank daemons. It'd be pretty easy too, as you could just apply the mark of chaos to them.

Allow us to roll a leadership test to have aspiring champions resist the possession of a greater daemon.

Shove cult troops back into the elite section and make them troops only if your lord/etc. was of that mark.

Bring back chosen # benefits.

Mabd
28-02-2010, 07:28
I'm probably alone here... but less demony-ness... or atleast to field a Traitor Legion that doesn't have to include some sort of demon or possession or whatever to be effective.

I like the idea of my CSMs to be arrogant, prideful, angry and vengeful - chaotic, a group of supermen who want to lock the doors of the Imperium and burn it to the ground with everybody inside. I don't want them to have to be demons to do that.

Troops, Terminators, tanks and dreadnaughts. Heresy style!

I know the warp changes people/things... yadda bladda blah. Just give me the option without having to rely on DP's, Oblits, summoned demons etc etc. I know it makes CSMs like dark space marines... but for me that's what's cool about it, not the demon thing. Old, old, old school vs new school. Hell yeah.

Vaktathi
28-02-2010, 07:39
I'm probably alone here... but less demony-ness... or atleast to field a Traitor Legion that doesn't have to include some sort of demon or possession or whatever to be effective.

I like the idea of my CSMs to be arrogant, prideful, angry and vengeful - chaotic, a group of supermen who want to lock the doors of the Imperium and burn it to the ground with everybody inside. I don't want them to have to be demons to do that.

Troops, Terminators, tanks and dreadnaughts. Heresy style! That's how I prefer mine :D you are not alone, although Daemons have their place (although I've never fielded them in any CSM army I've ever made). Daemon Engines I think still fit in quite well.

Although that said, Oblits aren't too far out of this realm, especially depending on which version of the fluff you prefer.

spurker
28-02-2010, 09:34
I started 40K with the current codex, so I'm not bitter about how it is at the moment. I would like:
1) traitor guard
2) An HQ choice that has an ability that affects the whole army
3) A squad with an icon to not lose its benefits if the icon bearer dies (in real life, if it gave those benefits, someone would pick it up for crying out loud!)
4) a fast attack choice that is both fast and not an SM clone.
5) the ability to loot modern SM tech, even if it incurs a penalty in its abilities or higher cost (as CSM totally would salvage)

Mojaco
28-02-2010, 09:42
Just give me the option without having to rely on DP's, Oblits, summoned demons etc etc. I know it makes CSMs like dark space marines... but for me that's what's cool about it, not the demon thing. Old, old, old school vs new school. Hell yeah.
I never get why the SM codex can't provide. You've got funky wargear there, some sorcerors, basically all the 'normal' units CSM have. Just call the Relic Blade a Dark Blade and be done with it.

Mort
28-02-2010, 09:43
-More equipment options for HQ Models
-Free Spells for the sorcerors, and hopefully more of them.

(Many years ago Chaos characters were something to be feared, their lords amongst the best CC fighters in the game and the sorcerors almost on par with farseers, would like to see that again)

-Useful Dreadnoughts and spawns.
(the rules are ok so far, but the price tag on both units is over the top in my opinion)

-God specific Daemons to summon. (YES,I WANT MY PLAGUEBEARERS BACK)

-CULTISTS!!!! REALLY!!!

I wont say say legion special rules-would be nice to see, but i dont expect it.

Cpt_Baughan
28-02-2010, 09:45
Nice to see so many people thinking along the same lines.

I really want to see them mould Chaos into a really unique force so no moves towards being more akin to the Space Marines etc, this would mean heritics (traitor guard), cool characters, deamon engines and units that really sell the unique nature of a Chaos army. That and give or take the ability to field legions.

Born Again
28-02-2010, 10:02
Fluff wise, I would like to see them not have an over the top knee jerk reaction to the sentiment towards the current codex. The last thing we need is for them to go to the exact opposite end of the scale and do Codex: Old Guys in Power Armour Who Can't Accept The Lost. I like the character and new elements that Renegades and more "modern" CSM's add to things, and always have done for a long time. They need to put a balance between the two, old and new which, in all honesty, I think they've done quite well in the current book.

Askari
28-02-2010, 10:47
See signature ;)

MegaPope
28-02-2010, 11:04
In a word: COLOUR

The current codex is so bland you could use it for porridge. However, what I also want to see is freedom. Now, I'm familiar with (and love) all the Chaos background from 1988 onwards, but we shouldn't desire to straitjacket ourselves for the sake of convention. GW are moving away from this kind of thing, and for this they should be applauded.

One thing I simply can't agree with though, was their decision to split CSMs and Daemons. This was done purely for money, and to my mind has resulted in one three-dimensional army being torn into two very shallow shadows of its former self: one barely different from any of the other 101 SM armies out there, the other the game's most blatant one-trick pony.

Of the top of my head, some ideas for a future redux:

-Give the army as a whole a different 'flavour': at the moment, they play very similarly to the SM. I think that their whole fighting style should be just as antique as their weapons. They should fight like an army of conquest - fast-moving, aggressive, the emphasis on attack and decisive assaults, preferably based on massed infantry. As SMs, they're tough enough to sustain this kind of thing even in realtively small numbers, and to give them the option of doing this would be something of an antidote to the whole mech obsession.

-Cult Marines and Chosen: drop these as autonomous 'units'. Sometimes I think the Cult troops are only there to expand the Troops section, and the Chosen just don't 'feel'. Instead, make both into a set of appropriately-priced upgrades for 'standard' units in the Codex: so Chosen would grant +1 Attack and +1 Ld, and maybe the choice of one Veteran skill, and there could be fixed parameters for bonuses offered by the various Cults.
You could also mix and match - so you could indeed have your Chosen Berzerker Terminators of Khorne, or you Plaguerider Bikes of Nurgle - you'd just have to pay for the privilege :)

-Some of the weapons need altering, I think. The Reaper whould be something more than a short-ranged twin-linked autocannon. The plasma weaponry should be more effective, but more dangerous as well. Above all, there should be some kind of reasoning behind it - the 2ed Chaos Codex explained why the CSMs had no man-portable PCs or Multimeltas. ATM, they just don't have them. End of story.

-Daemons: no more 'generic lesser daemons' - people want daemons of the Great Powers to go with their army of devoted followers of the Great Powers. Daemon units could be treated like a 'shadow' army in the CSM codex - they don't take slots on the FOC, but you pay to have them, they deploy off of appropriate Icons and are worth Kill Points (since they represent expenditure of resources) but cannot even contest objectives (since they will vanish at the end of the battle) and suffer from some kind of instability 'pop' rule. They could also be made slightly weaker and more restrictive in terms of upgrades than in the pure Daemon army.

-Icons: no more 'Bob Dropped The Stick'. It wouldn't be necessary anyway if the Marks of Chaos were just an upgrade. In addition, I think something should be done with the Mark of Chaos Undivided: make it the standard Mark, for starters, the CSM's equivalent of ATSKNF - after all, these should be CHAOS Space Marines we're dealing with here! You could then also buy Blessings if you wished, to represent the unit giving special supplication to one or more of the Chaos Gods before the battle - these could grant realtively small boosts, depending on the God invoked: +1 Strength for Khorne, a low Inv save for Tzeentch etc, but in no way be as effective as the true Marks of Chaos.

-Make the Fast Attack section worth a damn. Raptors should be thoroughly nasty (although with modified rules for Marking them, they could stay the same and still have th option to be significantly tougher), Spawn should have the option for a CSM handler to make them move like normal infantry, and bikers should have the option for one or more Attack Bikes as attachments to their squads. Also, I think the Chaos Predator should go here - drop it's armour a little (12/12/10) and make it Fast - Predators used to be aggressive tanks, not mobile pillboxes like the Guard monsters.

Daemonancy: they should make something more of the Defiler. It's a great concept let down by mediocre rules. Reduce the range on it's battlecannon, to encourage more aggressive use of it, boost its armour and then go to town on upgrades, variants and Marks. So option to replace the battlecannon with another main weapon could be part of the effect of Marking the thing - a chaingun for Khorne (like the Brass Scorpion tail weapon), Vomit Cannon for Nurgle, Sonic Disruptor for Slaanesh etc.

-Characters: A Chaos Hero option would be nice, and Chaos Lords should be utter hardasses - they not only have to fight the enemy, they have to fend off the predations of their own men! Also, the ability to take retinues, even if they were only relatively small, again would be very appreciated

-Special Characters: I like these guys, but they should be 'selfish' - individually, they should be very powerful, but grant no army-wide benefits like their loyalist counterparts...or at least, none without potentially grim consequences (Fabius Bile, I'm looking at you! :D). Also, Huron Blackheart really should have been in Codex: Space Marines. We should have Cypher instead :)

The Marshel
28-02-2010, 11:35
i'd just like a codex that can accurately represent a rebellious marine force from the the current era

Ironhand
28-02-2010, 12:01
Nice to see that most folks are in pretty general agreement.

I really want to see the old legions back, and as some folks have noted, the 3rd Edition Codex wouldn't be a bad place to start. I want Marks, not icons, and cult Terminators, etc.

I think Daemons are better off in their own book, but I would like to see a new Chaos Codex include Traitor Guard, Cultists, and Plague Zombies, and I'd love to see things like Blight Drones and Blood Slaughterers in the Codex.

borithan
28-02-2010, 12:03
There's no excuse for recently turned Terminators to be using 10,000 year old Reaper Autocannons!Well, the 2nd ed codex suggested that even more recent converts would eventually switch to the standard Chaos wargear, as stuff like the Reaper Autocannon was more reliable and easier to produce, the Assault Cannon requiring the kind of maintenance support that they could no longer provide. So it wouldn't be a 10,000 year Reaper Autocannon, but a brand new one. But yes, if they really wanted to represent Raiders there should be some option to take more recent equipment (like in 2nd ed, but it cost 50% more).



6) My Chaos Marines are 10,000 year old veterans of the Long War, not generic Space Marines with an extra Ld and Attack. Make their stats as imposing as they're supposed to be, and make them cost more points. A Traitor Legion warband is supposed to be small in number, vastly superior to a modern Astartes,Well... generic Chaos Marines and their veterans have been worse (equipment aside) than standard marines since at least 2nd ed (same stats, but lacking special morale rules). The idea that most Chaos Marines are more experienced and better than standard Space Marines is obviously not one that GW accepted themselves.



Mark of Chaos Undivided: make it the standard MarkWell... some of the Chaos Space Marines are meant to be not terribly keen on worshiping Chaos as such, which is what the Marks represent.

carl
28-02-2010, 13:09
Well... generic Chaos Marines and their veterans have been worse (equipment aside) than standard marines since at least 2nd ed (same stats, but lacking special morale rules). The idea that most Chaos Marines are more experienced and better than standard Space Marines is obviously not one that GW accepted themselves.


try the 3rd ed codex. It's accepted. it's just the current dex isn't supposed to represent the HH vetrans only the recent turncoats.

WinglessVT2
28-02-2010, 13:24
Flavor, effective units, less camp evil, so no more 'Let no good deed go unpunished, let no evil deed go unrewarded!'

I want my options back.

totgeboren
28-02-2010, 13:31
Allow units to retain the blessing of their god even if the icon bearer drops the stick.

This is the one major thing that they really must change. How hard can it be for the opponent to remember that the red marines with bolters who had a huge icon of Khorne at the beginning of the battle are Khornate marines even if the icon disappears?

Fix the Land Raider.

Other than that, I would like cultists. Crappy humans.

Or, what I would really like is some more fun army-wide rules accessible through a Chaos Lord.

Like, if your Commander has the Mark of Nurgle, you can include Plague Marines. Or maybe your marines that has the mark of Nurgle gets a slight buff or something.

But also other stuff, like say "Demagogue": All friendly models within 6"/12" get the stubborn rule, and you may include one mob of cultists per squad of standard chaos marines.

Maybe even "Renegade": All squads without an icon or mark gets the Combat Tactics special rule, to allow you to represent recently turned Marines, or the Alpha Legion.

We should be able to make in essence spiky marines if you are into that, or go all out on the daemonic stuff, with possessed, daemon engines, daemons and spawns.

How hard can it be to make rules that enables us to make a CSM army that follows the fluff?

What we have now doesn't allow us to properly represent the Legions, and doesn't allow us to represent recently turned marines. It's just a lame mess.

And I agree with WinglessVT2. Much less "Wiii, we are so eeeeevil! Lets say evil things like a villain out of a kids TV-show!"

DarkstarSabre
28-02-2010, 13:32
As has already been stated several times - consistency.

If you want to give me Legions then give me Legions. Not Terminators with an Icon-onna-stick but Plague/Berserker/Noise/Rubric Terminators. Not Lord with interchangeable mark but Plague/Berserker/Noise/Rubric Lords!

If you want to give me Renegades then give me Renegades. Give me the Landspeeders, the Multi-meltas, the SM equipment and some of the armour. I seriously fail to see why a recently turned Chapter would just dump all their equipment in favour of antiques for no apparant reason.

Gav tried too hard to make this a Do It All codex. Sure, we can represent certain things with clever unit choices and counts as...but does anyone else really have to do this? No, they do not. Hell, even the Eldar get a better deal compared to this.

It's like they took the dying days of the Eldar-Dark Angels-Jervis period of Codex Design and tried to mish-mash with the current period. The result is a disorganised mess.

borithan
28-02-2010, 13:48
try the 3rd ed codex. It's accepted. it's just the current dex isn't supposed to represent the HH vetrans only the recent turncoats.What did the Veterans get over normal Space Marine Veterans?


Rubric Lords!Rubric Marines are meant to be fairly unthinking automatons, unable to have the force of will to act as a leader... They would be led by some powerful Tzeentchian psyker character.

WinglessVT2
28-02-2010, 13:50
The mantra at the time was 'less is more,' and halfway into production, they must have realized that less can never be more when chaos is considered, so we got some options, lots of separate units, useless things thrown in so there'd be more choice, and tons of rules on things that didn't have them before, and probably never needed them in the first place.

I'm so glad that GW decided to drop the mantra, and kicked the guilty designers out.

Grand Master Raziel
28-02-2010, 13:56
With CSM, if you want to win you usually take a Daemon Prince (which have as much variety and taste as tofu). I prefer to have my Legion led by a Terminator Lord and leave the DPs for Daemons, but I'm at a disadvantage from square one with this selection.

There is one very large advantage to taking Lords or Sorcerors instead of DPs: Your opponent's can't single out Lords or Sorcerors as targets for all their firepower they way they can with DPs. You can stick them in a squad and have them ride in a Rhino or Land Raider, or take a jump pack or bike and have them join a unit of Raptors or Bikers. That's not an inconsiderable advantage, and it's something DPs can't do.

5) Separate us from the Loyalists. Take Renegades and either throw them into the background where they always were (and should be), or make an option for generic Renegades that can take modern Imperial equipment. There's no excuse for recently turned Terminators to be using 10,000 year old Reaper Autocannons! The Traitor Legions are the main characters of Chaos and they're what make Chaos Marines so damned lethal, not some angst ridden space pirate.


6) My Chaos Marines are 10,000 year old veterans of the Long War, not generic Space Marines with an extra Ld and Attack.

I have to take issue with this statement. The idea that the bulk of current CSM forces are Horus Heresy veterans doesn't stand up to even the most cursory application of logic. The Legions didn't go into the Eye of Terror at full strength in the first place, they went in after the bloody, failed siege of Terra. Then, you've got the attrition of 10,000 years of constant warfare to consider. Even with ridiculously low attrition rates, by the 41rst millenium you'd be talking well over 100% casualties. Plus, any HH vets who are anything less than Chaos Lords or Sorcerors would be ridiculous underachievers. The bulk of the CSM forces has to be later recruits, which means they'd be no more entitled to be any more cool than the average loyalist.

Nor does the "time does funny things in the Warp" argument entitle CSMs to be cooler than loyalists, either. If a CSM is caught in a slow time pocket, then he's gaining experience at the rate he'd gain it in the pocket, not in the main time stream. So, if it's been a year for the CSM in question while it's been 10,000 for the rest of the galaxy, then he's basically an anachronistic schmuck, not suddenly a mighty champion for having stumbled on a shortcut through the millenia.

However, this does raise a good point: the next CSM dex should have the fluff rewritten so it actually makes sense, rather than cater to the fanboys.


Removal of Icons, replace them back with Marks. Make each mark do the same thing. This means that Plague Terminators of the Deathguard legion should have the same blessings (and drawbacks) of their power armored brethren, not have fewer of them.


Actually, I would say they absolutely need to keep the Icons. To be properly represented, Chaos needs at least a two-tiered dedication system. It needs one for the full-blown cult troopers and another for those who are dedicated to the various gods, but less far-gone in their fanaticsm and psychosis. You need that middle ground between unmarked and fully marked for new recruits to the cult legion warbands and for warbands who aren't from the cult legions but who worship the individual gods in question. Plus, the Thousand Sons in particular really need something to represent their post-Rubric recruits. That's another point of fluff that needs to be addressed: that not all members of the cult legions are the representative cult trooper.

Plus, while you may not favor how the Icon system works, I would point out that the Icons also serve double-duty as teleport homers, which is a 15pt upgrade for a loyalist SM Tac Squad.


Likewise for Noise Marines


I'm with you here. The other cult troopers are around 20pts a pop for a CSM with a mark and some other advantages - Furious Charge for Zerks, FNP for PMs, hellfire bolts and S&P for T-Sons, but what NMs get is the option of paying +5pts for sonic blasters? You could just roll the sonic blasters into the cost for NMs, making them maybe a couple points more expensive than they currently are without the blasters. ECs who are not NMs can be represented by Iconed troopers, and they shouldn't be running around with the sonic weaponry anyway.


Add options for Vet Skills.


I'm afraid not. There is no free access to Vet Skills of choice anymore, so reintroducing it would be broken. I can see giving an appropriate USR to appropriate squads, but as previously stated, the idea that CSMs deserve to be more "veteran" than loyalist Marines doesn't hold water.


Dump the whole "renegades" thing or re-work it. As is, they appear as Emo-Marines. The current book has very little information on the traditional and background rich Chaos Legions.


Actually, I like the renegades thing better than the legions. I like the idea of some mighty fallen hero deciding to make his own way and carve himself out a bloodly little (or big) empire rather than following the millenia-old edicts of some Primarch who doesn't even pay attention to his legion anymore. That's got a lot more character than blindly following Legion dogma.

As for what I'm hoping: I'm hoping CSMs don't get redone until GW comes out with a codex for LatD-style armies. The current dex is fine for CSMs for most purposes and will get you by on the rest, but there is currently nothing in the system for a horde of Traitors and gribbly mutants. That's the Chaos army I really want to play, it's the dex that's most needed to round out the forces of Chaos in the 41rst millenium, and it's the dex I really hope GW will produce.

WinglessVT2
28-02-2010, 14:17
Icons are stupid.
They used to be sacred things that were given to full-blown followers, in order to attract and entice demons. Now they're what grants you your powers.

They need to go back to the actual marks, and icons should once again be something that's given to only the most hardcore followers of chaos, for demon-summoning, or extra power drawn directly from their gods.

Bunnahabhain
28-02-2010, 14:19
As a non chaos player, who merely faces them quite often.


Flavour and charceter, with internal balance. I see the following as very useful for this.


1) Access to humans. Rebel/traitor guard, and cultists. some kind of disposable rule not making them a total KP liability ( or whatever, hopefully better) system replaces KPs

2) Cult lords who are useful. They let you take any CSM ( CSM, termis, raptors, possed., etc..) unit of the same God as both troops and whatever FOC slot they would normally. Usual FOC totals to be obeyed.
Yes, this will allow massive spamming of certain units, if so wished. After 10,000 years, there will be some fairly strange forces about. As an example, if you really want to give all your raptors mark of Khorne, take a Khorne lord, and then run 3 Fast attack and 6 troops slots full of khornate loonies with jump packs, you're free to, but it's not going to be cheap....

3) Marks are built in to any unit that takes them, and cannot be lost. Down with Icons on sticks!

4) Lesser daemons, as per damons
5) Greater daemon, as per daemons. 0-1, HQ
make summoning sensible and blaanced.

6 ) Usuable dreads and spawn.

7) Psykers. Khornate stuff gets a built in, decent, ability to ignore psychic stuff.
Tzeench psykers get something along the lines of Eldar runes. They don't automatically succeed, but failure and getting eaten by the warp is highly unlikey. On par with a Farseer seems appropriate for a sorcerer of that much experience, who has the God of Magic as a patron!

8) Vehicles. Soul grinder is upgrade to basic defiler. Put in special rule to define how big they are clearly. Tweak others, as they don't need major changes

Renegades, and other recently turned marines are a problem . I can't see how to do them well without copy pasting half the marine codex...

Therefore, my solution is simple. Have a statement along the lines of...

Legions and renegades.
The forces of chaos in this book represent the legions from the HH, and others who have long shunned the false Emperor. The forces of chaos have had time to act upon them. Renegade marines, who have only just seen the light, will not yet exhibit the blessings of the Gods, when compared with the veterans of the 10,000 year war.

The best way to represent these Newly Renegade forces is by using Codex.: Space Marines.
Depending on how recently they have turned, you may wish to use Imperial Space marine models, with their markings defaced, or Chaos space marine ones.
As time progresses, and you add to force, you may wish to add units with more obvious chaos corruption. The newer less reliable weapons, such as assault cannons may break down, and have to be replaced, and you will find your force has changed into a fully chaotic one that fits Codex CSM. This is fine, and a good representation of the warping power of Chaos!

Mannimarco
28-02-2010, 14:22
its good to see that pretty much everybody is saying the same thing, it says a lot when everybody is in agreement on what should be included. TAKE NOTE GW: one or two people saying somthing can be dismissed as the ramblings of a fanboy but when pretty much everybody says "legions, traitor guard and daemon engines" that cant be dismissed quite so easily

ok firstly: Id love to see the legions back, I want my terminators to actually be from the death guard and not "spikey bob with the flu carring a stick"

traitor guard/latd would be nice, take a traitor general to allow them or allow them with the inclusion of a word bearer/alpha legion lord

taking special characters who provide rules for your army as a whole (see codex marines, guard, orks) so say you take abaddon, the black legion are known for their terminator assaults and speartip attacks so abaddon allows termiantor troops, probably give him the orbital strike as well. Taking typhus (who needs EW) allows plague zombies

somthing needs to be done to fix dreadnoughts/possessed as random should not = chaos

more daemon engines: we got the dark mech, a buch of tech priests living in a place where the doors of perception are thrown open, where you will think things you couldnt possible have thought in the past, what have you done in the past 10k years? oh a few aircraft and a defiler

more options for a prince: right now its "what combination of wings/warptime/lash do you want

price increase for the princes or price reductions for lords and sorcerers who should have EW, somthing needs to be done as princes are no brainers right now

more special characters: who doesnt want the option of necrosius and zhufor and zho sahaal and krieg acerbus and honsou etc (thats right, I want to rival codex guard for numbers ofspecial characters)

THAT quote to be removed completely and squated "let no good deed go unpunished, let no evil deed go unrewarded" yeah its very I R EVIL HAHAHA but it sort of turns the CSMs into a generic comedy villian and not the ancient enemy they should be

and if at all possible Robin Cruddace to write it

Griffindale
28-02-2010, 14:25
I think the codex now is a great base. I would like to see some of the cooler basic daemons represented though. And bring back topless daemonettes! This ain't no Disney channel special. :mad:

WinglessVT2
28-02-2010, 14:27
Stuff doesn't need to be made either cheaper or more expensive in points, but stuff needs to be made better or worse to fit the points.

A chaos lord for 90 points.
What does he do? He does nothing, thank you very much.

If you bling him up, he's going to cost more than your other options, and still won't do much.

carl
28-02-2010, 14:31
I'm so glad that GW decided to drop the mantra, and kicked the guilty designers out.

Why who got the boot, (i left around the time of 5th ed the chaos dex and have only just got back in).

Overall i feel that style works best when the main rules support it, (e.g. epic, or BFG). Less is more is the key to what makes thme great. but thats because the BRB's for them are built on the same standard.


What did the Veterans get over normal Space Marine Veterans?

Troops choices could tak vetran skills. or example Infiltrate, or Tank Hunters or Furious chage. That kind of ting, 9like old 4h ed trait marines except every unit could pick it's own traits)

WinglessVT2
28-02-2010, 14:33
Gav Thorpe, for one.

Less is not more, especially not if you strip away all the things that made people - and the characters your plastic miniatures represent - turn to chaos in the first place.

carl
28-02-2010, 14:42
Gav Thorpe, for one.

Less is not more, especially not if you strip away all the things that made people - and the characters your plastic miniatures represent - turn to chaos in the first place.

Like i said go look at epic, or BFG. They use OTHER WAYS that are simpler and easier to represent the naure of the beast as it where. What people started playing X army for is still there, but because the main rules have enough USR's to represent anything you might want to do in general you don't need many special rules to represent these things. Or go crazy on options and choices. You've allready got all you need right there.

Jus so long as Jervis never goes i'll be happy. the mans a genius IMHO.

WinglessVT2
28-02-2010, 14:46
What I started playing them for isn't there.
I picked chaos up because the book allowed me to make a real anti-hero pirate superman, with a small group of hardcore veteran anti-heroes as his retinue, leading a band of mercenary renegades from the front.

Now they're truly all skulls, evil grins, evil quotes, and needlessly camp evil - even the descriptions for their weapons are camp evil.

The flavor got lost, and the book doesn't inspire me at all, so I put my chaos characters on the shelf, and converted my several times over converted foot marines into loyalists, and sold the black templar renegades to someone who wanted them for spare parts.

I want the flavor back.
I want the book to tell us why they're a threat, and why they have the potential to be mankind's greatest heroes.
I want to be awed by the background material again.

carl
28-02-2010, 15:02
:confused:

o me even in the 3rd ed dex thats precisly what all chaos marines are.

Evil butchers with lots of skulls. I can't deny the way it's played campy somtimes is basd, and i agree theirs some anti-heros in some legions/individuals.
But evil guys with skulls is a core component of their image. DoW 1 probably captures chaos best for me character wise.

The current dex suffers mostly from campy writing and a lack of slyness and ocashinol guile. It treats all marines as World Eaters in some ways.


What i felt got left behind is the whole "army of mini-heroes" aproach. One upon a time you could bling entire squads out and raise unit leaders to near mini HQ status while lords walked the earth like gianmts amongst the elite of the Chaos SM's.

It was the watering down from ultra nasty, ultra blinged, ultra elite marines with a liquied dash of pure self intrested evil in them that hurt me most (as a non-chaos player i might add).

WinglessVT2
28-02-2010, 15:06
No, they weren't, and no, you can't do that with the current codex.

They're all evil, all the time, and you can't customize things.
They're not anti-heroes - they're camp evil, like villains from cartoons, and the book itself makes this perfectly clear.

They have no substance, and no character left.
All evil, all the time.

Dawn of war is precisely the same thing, with even more horribly evil and stupid characters. Out of all those games, only one has had a chaos lord that I thought was written well, and appealed to me; Eliphas.

Grand Master Raziel
28-02-2010, 15:13
Gav Thorpe, for one.

Less is not more, especially not if you strip away all the things that made people - and the characters your plastic miniatures represent - turn to chaos in the first place.

To be fair, Gav was writing to the at-the-time prevailing theory of simplifying things. Also, to be fair, the previous CSM book was a horrendously broken monstrosity that could not be allowed to be perpetuated. Chaos was going to get beat hard with the nerf stick no matter who was writing that dex. Any Chaos player who expected otherwise was fooling themselves. The current dex really only has one build that can be considered abusive, and that build can be countered by meching up, which everyone is doing this edition anyway, so I consider that a huge improvement in balance.

As far as Chaos HQs go, all the current kvetching over the Chaos Lord shows is that the Daemon Prince is underpriced. Lords cost less than SM Captains and have almost the same upgrade options across the board, but you don't see SM players complaining about Captains.

Crovax20
28-02-2010, 15:15
I'd like to see a couple of things, better balance between the HQ choices, fast attack being worth taking and the chaos dreadnought should be improved.

Partisan Rimmo
28-02-2010, 15:19
I think the only way to theme it is 'The Path to Damnation'. That's what we all want anyway.

Even factoring out the cultists, daemons and daemon engines, the CSM have a very clear strata. You have the Renegades and the recently recruited marines, full of ambition and the urge to wage war, with modern equipment and military strategy, who will tear down the Imperium with their dread Black Crusades.

Then you have the Chosen, the ancient beings that are saturated with the warp. The watched the Emperor die, and they walk the daemon worlds without fear. Any lingering human emotion in them is a dim and distant thing. They've lived a hundred lifetimes of man, and still they are undefeated. These are terrifying and insane creatures of legend.

And then of course, every legion or warband is part of the spectrum in between. They all have their own slightly unique take on being a Chaos Space Marine.

So whatever the new codex is, it has to somehow span the gap between the hardcore military vibe (which the current codex does well) and the Realm of Chaos style Legions of madness (of the previous codexes). Then you can start piling cultists, traitors, mutants, daemons and war machines onto that.:D

Just for god's sake don't give the Iron Warriors four Heavy Support slots...:p

RCgothic
28-02-2010, 15:24
Forget the Renegades. They're as near vanilla as matters anyway. What we should have:

The ability to make an authentic army of any of the original traitor legions: Black Legion, Emperor's Children, Alpha Legion, Death Guard, World Eaters, Word Bearers, Thousand Sons, Night Lords or Iron warriors.

The ability to make a cultist/renegade guard army.

A sensible way to mix both of the above, preferably including summoned daemons.

spurker
28-02-2010, 15:28
I agree with you there RCgothic, If I want to field recently renegade marines, I use the SM codex, if I want to field ancient traitor marines, I use the CSM codex. Simple!

Samus_aran115
28-02-2010, 15:38
WOW! You guys are awesome. I never even though of the option of letting plauge marines be terminators. That would be badassery, not to mention give nurgle armies a massive bonus.. Well, actually, termies with any daemon would be a real step up.

Our land raider is basically worse than the SM one, which is a slap in the face. We have to lower the number of models down to ten, while the redeemer/ crusader can hold 16 (or is it 14..12?) models.

Raptors and bikers are basically garbage, with like no options other than meltaguns.They have to footslog around with an army that is basically anti-footslogging.

We don't have any scouts, except maybe possesed, which are an entirely differnet problem altogether.

Too many problems...

Askari
28-02-2010, 15:42
As far as Chaos HQs go, all the current kvetching over the Chaos Lord shows is that the Daemon Prince is underpriced. Lords cost less than SM Captains and have almost the same upgrade options across the board, but you don't see SM players complaining about Captains.

Daemon Princes are still only 'good' not amazing.

Chaos Lords don't have a 4+ Inv, or Combat Tactics, or ATSKNF, or access to Dark Relic Blades, or Storm Shields.
Chaos Lords compare really badly in comparison, they're at best equal fighters to SM Captains, and do nothing for your army as a whole.

I want a return to super-powerful, but small, units of demigods.
Chaos Space Marines should be like Sternguard/Vanguard in ability.
Chosen and Terminators should make your opponent go "uh oh..."
Chaos Lords should rip Space Marine Captains apart, maybe not easily, but definitely in favour of the Lord.
Daemon Princes should take on units solo, like Greater Daemons can.

On the flipside, have fun trying to get over 35 models in a 1750 game, and they'd be less versatile than their Loyalist brothers. Berserkers will struggle against high Tougness units and vehicles, Plague Marines should suck in assault, they can take the pain, but not dish it out, Chosen would be like Grey Knights, hit very very hard, but somewhat fragile for the cost.

Wingless: I agree, Eliphas the Inheritor is the only good Chaos character in any 40k game. I'm glad he's back.

carl
28-02-2010, 15:45
No, they weren't, and no, you can't do that with the current codex.

They're all evil, all the time, and you can't customize things.
They're not anti-heroes - they're camp evil, like villains from cartoons, and the book itself makes this perfectly clear.

They have no substance, and no character left.
All evil, all the time.

Dawn of war is precisely the same thing, with even more horribly evil and stupid characters. Out of all those games, only one has had a chaos lord that I thought was written well, and appealed to me; Eliphas.


You see thats where your wrong wingles. Look at even the older fluff. What seprated them from normal Marines:

they worshiped the chaos gods.

What are the chaos gods: Evil guys with a penchant for skulls.

Yes some individuals are tragic anti-heroes. But thats not what most of them are. Most of tem are nothing more than traitorus scumbags who've turned to evil god to gratify their desire for power/pleashure/warfare/whatever else it is they want.

People turn to chaos because chaos offers them somthing they want, and in time without realising it they suddenly find themselves doing the most henious things, (in a way this is a lot like your average SW Dark Jedi), so their fall can be tragic. but the end result is an evil self serving b****d.

Thats why DoW 1 IS a good example of Chaos marines, Tottally evil self serving chaos corrupted marines. Isaldor is the tragic hero case there.

I can't really comment on the eliphas issue as despite having DC he got zero real character development time. Maybe you felt he was wwell done because he never had any character in the first place....


I'm alos aware you can't build the kind of army i described with the current dex, thats why i stated i see that as the big issue, (along with the campy writing, everyone seems to be a WA type in the new dex which i agree is bad), not the whole "evil self serving" imgae because thats the core of what chaos has allways been about. it's just that the legion fluff, (which IS full of a number of tragic hero cases and guys who aren't exactly the ushual self serving pure evil types i admit), was what was emphesised. The generic chaos marine that makes up the legions was ofte ignored in favour of it's leaders and notable heroes.

WinglessVT2
28-02-2010, 16:12
Not everyone of them worshipped skulls and gods, and the second 3rd edition book went to great lengths to explain this, as well as the 'character' of chaos marines in general.

We also weren't plagued with Dick Dastardly evil everywhere, or 'let no good deed go unpunished, let no evil deed go unrewarded!' as quotes.

The appeal is gone, whether you like it or not.
I retired my chaos marines, as did three out of four other players. The fourth rebuilt his old thousand sons, played them a bit, then pretty much decided the codex was too bland to keep using, and retired them, too.

Bodysnatcher
28-02-2010, 16:15
All I want is a list that's at least moderately challenging to use and doesn't put me to sleep as I finish reading the codex.
I also want thousand sons sorcerer termies back.

Ddraiglais
28-02-2010, 16:35
You see thats where your wrong wingles. Look at even the older fluff. What seprated them from normal Marines:

they worshiped the chaos gods.

What are the chaos gods: Evil guys with a penchant for skulls.

Yes some individuals are tragic anti-heroes. But thats not what most of them are. Most of tem are nothing more than traitorus scumbags who've turned to evil god to gratify their desire for power/pleashure/warfare/whatever else it is they want...


You have obviously missed the entire point of Chaos.

For starters, not all CSM worship the Chaos gods.

The Chaos gods are not necessarily evil. The are a personification of human emotion. Granted, the results of the big four Chaos gods' minions' actions are pretty evil, but a lot of the Imperium's actions could be deemed evil.

The traitor legions did not turn to evil gods to gratify their desire for power, pleasure, warfare, or any other reason. The majority of the traitor legions followed their Warmaster either out of loyalty or because they saw the Emp as abandoning them and/or humanity. Most thought they were making the choice for GOOD when they rebelled. Some had no choice (TS, IW, and EC). The only traitor legion that might be more along the lines of evil for evil's sake is the WB.

Sure the CSM commit acts of atrocity. They aren't good guys, but their motivation is revenge. They want to continue the long war. Most of their evil acts are also fairly common in the Imperium. Sure they take slaves. The majority of the citizens of the Imperium are no better than serfs, which is a name for a different kind of slave. The CSM kill civilians all the time, I hear you say? Ever hear of exterminatus?

I'm also sick of the "we're so evil, see our spikes" crap. DoW does a horrible job of portraying CSM. The current codex doesn't do any better. If I want anything from the next dex it's two things. First I want a background to show the bitterness. I don't want gay emo evil for evil's sake guys. I want the guys who rebelled with humanity's best interest in mind, fought a bitter civil war, were forced into the EoT, realized what they had done, but still won't admit they might have made the wrong choice. I want the guys who are so bitter that they will tear the Imperium down brick by brick to get their revenge. The second thing I want out of the codex are rules that will inspire me to start collecting, painting, and gaming again. I really do miss the hobby of 40K.

DuskRaider
28-02-2010, 16:57
I have to take issue with this statement. The idea that the bulk of current CSM forces are Horus Heresy veterans doesn't stand up to even the most cursory application of logic. The Legions didn't go into the Eye of Terror at full strength in the first place, they went in after the bloody, failed siege of Terra. Then, you've got the attrition of 10,000 years of constant warfare to consider. Even with ridiculously low attrition rates, by the 41rst millenium you'd be talking well over 100% casualties. Plus, any HH vets who are anything less than Chaos Lords or Sorcerors would be ridiculous underachievers. The bulk of the CSM forces has to be later recruits, which means they'd be no more entitled to be any more cool than the average loyalist.

Nor does the "time does funny things in the Warp" argument entitle CSMs to be cooler than loyalists, either. If a CSM is caught in a slow time pocket, then he's gaining experience at the rate he'd gain it in the pocket, not in the main time stream. So, if it's been a year for the CSM in question while it's been 10,000 for the rest of the galaxy, then he's basically an anachronistic schmuck, not suddenly a mighty champion for having stumbled on a shortcut through the millenia.

However, this does raise a good point: the next CSM dex should have the fluff rewritten so it actually makes sense, rather than cater to the fanboys.


Well first of all, let's not get into the whole "the original Legionnaires can't be alive any more, it makes no sense". You're talking about a bunch of guys devoted to just that, not making sense. You know, chaos? As has been shown many many times in background and otherwise (books & prior codices), many original Astartes from the Traitor Legions are alive and kicking, and not just the leaders. Let's not also forget you're trying to look for logic and sense in a fictional universe in the far future... sorry, no dice.

My Death Guard are originals. I've painted them in the Pre-Heresy scheme (albeit corrupted, antiquated, and rusted), they're the original Astartes, that's my fluff. And I KNOW I'm not alone.

The Chaos Space Marine fluff is perfectly fine if you ignore the 4th Edition codex, which was a load of crap. GW should cater to the "fanboys" of Chaos, since we do play them and we are the majority. Being a Chaos "fanboy" isn't a bad thing. It means we love our army and the fluff that entails. Deal with it, bud.

TimLeeson
28-02-2010, 16:58
I guess my opinion goes against the majority, but If people dont want "bland" and "boring" why on earth are they playing Legions ?

For an army that should be all about creativity and imagination, where you have a blank-canvas to paint your own insane abominations of any colour and theme as extreme as one could imagine - Chaos marines seem to be the complete opposite ; merely a template/preset thats been done to death (death-guard, emperors children, thousand sons ect), And I thought thats what the preset-loyal chapter codices were for ? IMO, chaos marines should be more imaginative than that. Saddens me that people lack the creativity and imagination to create their own UNIQUE warband and just follow the same tired templates that have existed since the Legions were written about.

So I think the legions should be either nerfed entirely or they should be given even more flavour and variety so people can do legion armies that dont all look the damn same - and the codex should revolve around encouraging people to make up their own cool warbands, paintschemes, conversions ect with the codex offering a huge variety of old and new units as well as lots of plastic upgrade kits with all kinds of stuff to customise and create unique chaos marines. I'd also include Traitor-guard, mutants, zombies and cultists as well - and get rid of Daemons entirely, daemons are too awesome to hang out with mere mortals IMO.

Eos Rahh
28-02-2010, 17:00
The one thing I know we will see. Will be Drop pobs. I think there called dreadclaws? or something like that? But I know we will see them.

Bodysnatcher
28-02-2010, 17:06
I also hope they drop FNP from plaguemarines. T5 and FNP is stupid good for a troops unit.

DuskRaider
28-02-2010, 17:16
True, and their cost reflects it. When you can have IG with FNP, Nobz with FNP, and massed Gaunts with FNP, a group of Marines isn't so bad.

Earthbeard
28-02-2010, 17:22
I also hope they drop FNP from plaguemarines. T5 and FNP is stupid good for a troops unit.

I don't, Plaguemarines are costed for it, and tbh FNP isn't quite as good anymore.

MegaPope
28-02-2010, 17:22
I'd also include Traitor-guard, mutants, zombies and cultists as well - and get rid of Daemons entirely, daemons are too awesome to hang out with mere mortals IMO.

Sorry, you have that one the wrong way round. The 40Kverse is one in which Gods are fuelled by belief. A Daemon is merely a tiny, tiny portion of that God's power, siphoned off and made into a semi-autonomous tool, and it works this way from Nurglings to Bloodthirsters.

Thus, Daemons represent a net LOSS of power to the God that created them.

Mortals on the other hand, are free-willed, and if they choose to devote themsevles to belief in a God, they are handing over suzerainty of their soul to that God, increasing the God's spiritual power, as well as providing it with a useful (in the case of Space Marine, a VERY useful) pawn in the material universe, where it's daemonic servitors cannot easily go.

Thus mortals represent a net GAIN of power to the God that they worship.

Ergo, Daemons aren't "awesome" - they're slaves of the lowliest kind, lacking even the free will to realise they're slaves! :D This is why quite a few Daemon Princes remain in the material universe with their followers - they remember their mortal origins, and prefer to experience and wield real power over others, rather than be a mere extesion of a God's will.

Anyway...from a gameplay point of view, I'd prefer not to see Cultists/Traitor Guard mixed into the CSM list - even the 2ed Codex didn't do this. Heck, even the original Realm of Chaos army lists from Rogue trader limited it to a few mobs of Beastmen and Chaos Spawn. The core fighting strength of a Chaos Space Marine army has always been Chaos Space Marines and some summoned Daemonic support. I feel the army could lose it's focus too easily if you tried to cram too much stuff in.

Bodysnatcher
28-02-2010, 18:19
I don't, Plaguemarines are costed for it, and tbh FNP isn't quite as good anymore.

Plaguemarines are seriously undercosted. Three times as hard to kill with most weapons AND fearless.
The interaction of FNP, a good armour save and cover is obscene.

DuskRaider
28-02-2010, 18:32
That's where tactics come in... Anything AP 3 will negate their armor, anything with AP2 will negate their Feel No Pain. Small arms fire against Plague Marines is useless unless it's in huge amounts. But they're not supposed to be easy to kill, are they? Just because you struggle to beat them doesn't make them broken...

Bodysnatcher
28-02-2010, 18:50
That's where tactics come in... Anything AP 3 will negate their armor, anything with AP2 will negate their Feel No Pain. Small arms fire against Plague Marines is useless unless it's in huge amounts. But they're not supposed to be easy to kill, are they? Just because you struggle to beat them doesn't make them broken...

The dead giveaway is the proportion of competetive (i.e. tournament) lists that contain them.
A good 90% at the last UKGT I went to.
Not all armies have access to vast quantities of good AP weapons. And the high value of cover means that AP3 doesn't make much difference.

Mannimarco
28-02-2010, 18:54
I could happily see the PM go to 30pts and i play them

carl
28-02-2010, 19:47
You have obviously missed the entire point of Chaos.

For starters, not all CSM worship the Chaos gods.

The Chaos gods are not necessarily evil. The are a personification of human emotion. Granted, the results of the big four Chaos gods' minions' actions are pretty evil, but a lot of the Imperium's actions could be deemed evil.

The traitor legions did not turn to evil gods to gratify their desire for power, pleasure, warfare, or any other reason. The majority of the traitor legions followed their Warmaster either out of loyalty or because they saw the Emp as abandoning them and/or humanity. Most thought they were making the choice for GOOD when they rebelled. Some had no choice (TS, IW, and EC). The only traitor legion that might be more along the lines of evil for evil's sake is the WB.

Sure the CSM commit acts of atrocity. They aren't good guys, but their motivation is revenge. They want to continue the long war. Most of their evil acts are also fairly common in the Imperium. Sure they take slaves. The majority of the citizens of the Imperium are no better than serfs, which is a name for a different kind of slave. The CSM kill civilians all the time, I hear you say? Ever hear of exterminatus?

I'm also sick of the "we're so evil, see our spikes" crap. DoW does a horrible job of portraying CSM. The current codex doesn't do any better. If I want anything from the next dex it's two things. First I want a background to show the bitterness. I don't want gay emo evil for evil's sake guys. I want the guys who rebelled with humanity's best interest in mind, fought a bitter civil war, were forced into the EoT, realized what they had done, but still won't admit they might have made the wrong choice. I want the guys who are so bitter that they will tear the Imperium down brick by brick to get their revenge. The second thing I want out of the codex are rules that will inspire me to start collecting, painting, and gaming again. I really do miss the hobby of 40K.


Hate to burst the bubble for you but as far as i know all chaos SM's worship.... big suprise.... CHAOS. If they don't whorship chaos they're not chaos SM's, they're at best reenegades, or some other form of non-chaos affilliated marine thats not loyalist. Being chaos worshipers is central to the whople CSM thing. Sure most new CSM don't start out worshiping chaos, and not all of them worship one specific god in the end. But overall thats the big thing that defines them, everything else that makes them diffrent just comes from there.

Your point about the legions is well made, (though AFAIK the WB, the WE, the WC can all be said to have turned willingly. Each was offered somthing by the Chaos gos that the emperor couldn't give them. the TS and DG where definte resluctant converts, the LW/SH, IW, i'm less clear on, Obviously their was Horus but why did the rest of the legion follow him, and i really don't know the IW full story. AL are a really crazy case and it's not even certian when they fell. As ever they're a mystery wrapped in an engima, contained within a conundroum).

Ultimetly though quite a large prortion of the legions switched sides for purely selfish reasons. the WB and WE felt undervalued and where upset by their put downs. Chaos gave them what they wanted A god to worship/The Approval for their bloodthirsty ways they craved. The EC where similar the chaos gods gave them an outlet for their perfectionisem, and a chance to induldge their most decedent ways without fear of disaproval.

I also understand what your saying about following their leader and bitterness. But you don't just decide to start attacking your former commrades in arms because your leader says so, for most it takes a bit more than that. The Chjaos gods offered them somthing, a vision of somthing, maybe they thought it was a beetter galaxy, maybe not. Who knows who cares really. the fact is they turned and that caries consequences.

this is what i think many players ae having troubkle acepting.

Namely it dosen't matter why you started out fighting for chaos. It's a corruptng force. Expose yourself to it for two long and it has about the same effect on you as exsessive darkside use does on a edi. You end up as a seriously evil bad guy who does things eithier for his own personol gratification, power, or other personol benefit. In this respect Anakin Skywalker is the perfect example of the Chaos Legions and their development. He starts out beliving he's doing good and helping people. But over time his expiriances and sheer darkside expoushure leave him so twisted up he actually still thinks he's doing good whilst commiting the most henious of acts throughout the later stages of EpIII and the OT.

I DO understand where your coming from here, but the end result of Chaos worship or exposhure is that you end up as an inherintly evil nasty bad guy doing evil things, you may think your doing it for X/Y/Z reason but in reality your just a puppet on your masters string.

A brilliant example i remeber of this is a story of some death guard champion. He comes charging out of his raider swinging a pluage sword against some loylist marines. He goes around just barely catching them all commenting to himself about how he's giving them the gift of farther nurgle and how lucky they are, e.t.c. Yes you could say he's doing this as a way of revenge against them, but really his reasons aren't rleveant to what he's doing, he's still fighting his way to the top of the pile, he's still going round spreading nurgles desises for him e.t.c.

For me that story was a defining moment for chaos, it set in stone how i veiw them by and large, (i'm not saying some exposed to chaos can't go uncoruppted for a long time for example, jus that most do, and most of the legions must fall into this category).

What i'm thus saying is it's the actions themselves rather than the reasoning for those actions. They can claim they're doing it for biterness or revenge or the good of humanity all they want, but it dosen't change the fact that in terms of what this means, they're still the same as people like Huroun Blackheart. These just aren't mentally the same marines we had at the time of the HH, they're no longer the tragic heroes, their just another, (albiet very powerful), CSM with all the guile, evil, backstabbing, psychopathic, (in narrow area's, not insane in general terms i mean), ways that goes with that, 10,000 tears of corrupption do that to you.

Are the reasons impiortant, sure i like to hear that kind of thing. but that dosen't change how they act very much, they still take the same actions, they just think they'e doing them for diffrent reasons.

Regarding the evil point:

Sure the IoM does evil things. They don't do them 24/7 to anything and everything they can get their hands on however. Thats the diffrance bewteen the 2. Normal Marines will virus bomb or lop the heads off of, or torture, or whatever else to the citezens of a world if they belive they are corrupt. hey woj't do it just because they happen to be in the area. With a CSM regardless of the more complex underlying psychology, it allways comes bac to: because i can.


This is WHY DoW IS a good source. it dosen't dwell on why they do things, it just has them go off and do them and lets us worry about the motivation behind it. Sure there's some bad moments in the unit quotes. but the basic plotline of Bale and SIndri is typical Undivided/TZeenetchian behaviour. Both want power for whatever reason, one goes after it head on while the other plays tricks to get what he needs. With no thought given to the countless atrocities they commit to get them.

Thats what Chaos is about. Forget the motivations for a minute and all it is is a bunch of chaos worshiping marines going out on great killing sprees and power grabs all in the name of their patron/s with the hopes of getting more power from their master. Sure their may be bitterness and revenge as a motivation, but to repeat myself ad infinitum, thats not really releveant to what they ACTUALLY do.

EDIT: I'm, also not disagreeing that the STYLE of the current 4th ed fluff is bad, it's a lot like the DoW quotew: "can you hear the voices too". Sure it's funny and it's a good idea for the odd marine. But it dosen't represent chaos very well in general. A lot of 4t ed stuff suffers from this syndrome.

DeeKay
28-02-2010, 19:59
I guess my opinion goes against the majority, but If people dont want "bland" and "boring" why on earth are they playing Legions ?

For an army that should be all about creativity and imagination, where you have a blank-canvas to paint your own insane abominations of any colour and theme as extreme as one could imagine - Chaos marines seem to be the complete opposite ; merely a template/preset thats been done to death (death-guard, emperors children, thousand sons ect), And I thought thats what the preset-loyal chapter codices were for ? IMO, chaos marines should be more imaginative than that. Saddens me that people lack the creativity and imagination to create their own UNIQUE warband and just follow the same tired templates that have existed since the Legions were written about.

I agree with this to a degree, and I will say for all its faults (and they are many) the new CSM book does allow for a well represented RENEGADES army.
It does no justice to the Legions and people who want to play mono-God lists. Playing as a single God should bring benefits. After all, they will be fighting for the favour of this God and the army looks more cohesive, something that is sadly lacking in the new book, where to do well, you have to take units together that make little sense. (Twin-lash DP, Plague marines and Berzerkers being the main culprits.)


So I think the legions should be either nerfed entirely or they should be given even more flavour and variety so people can do legion armies that dont all look the damn same - and the codex should revolve around encouraging people to make up their own cool warbands, paintschemes, conversions ect with the codex offering a huge variety of old and new units as well as lots of plastic upgrade kits with all kinds of stuff to customise and create unique chaos marines. I'd also include Traitor-guard, mutants, zombies and cultists as well - and get rid of Daemons entirely, daemons are too awesome to hang out with mere mortals IMO.

I can't even imagine that this is being written as a serious statement. The Legions got battered with the 4th Ed book (Emperor's Children Havocs or Terminators with Blastmasters NO LONGER EXIST! After all this time, I am still really p***ed at GW for this!) and you want them to be nerfed?!

Daemons are what make Chaos. They are embodiments of their God's will, given to aiding their loyal followers in battle. Ditching Daemons would make Chaos Marines simply spiky Marines with nothing but a lack of equipment to make them unique.

Making up cool warbands is a good idea, but I think it would soon suffer from the same problem that you are trying to avoid. The sad truth is that as soon as people find a solid list that will win again and again, they will replicate that as often as they can. Seeing such lists at tournaments will cause other people to copy the list in the hope of similar success. You will never get rid of samey armies, especially at tournament level.

Traitor Guard have been really cool in the games that I have played using the Siege of Vraks lists. To be honest, Forge World are the only way that such "niche" lists as the Chaos Cult, Genestealer Hybrids, Adeptus Mechanicus etc are going to be done properly. Let GW focus on the things that attract the kiddies and let Forge World look after the big kids.

Honestly, the only things I ask from a new Chaos book are...

1) Reunite Chaos Marines and Daemons, maybe even in the same way as 2nd Ed. Basically, you did something the God liked and you got summoning points to spend on bringing on Daemons. You still had to pay the points for daemons but you had to work to get them onto the table.

2) Make EVERY unit option worth taking. This is something I have had major issues with almost every release GW have had since 3rd Ed came out. It shouldn't be that hard to make every unit worth considering.

3) Daemonic Gifts for Chaos Champions. I'm not advocating a return to 3.5, but there should be some way to customise lords, aspiring champions and Daemon Princes beyond Mark/Wings/Spell. Seriously, you would think these daemon princes were carbon copies of each other.

4) Split up the marking system into favours (icons for units in effect) and marks (the more specialised stuff that comes with following a God) to allow for Rubric Terminators, World Eater Bikers, Etc. This way, you can accurately portray both renegades and the Legions in the same book. Obviously there would have to be some sort of limiting factor on having different marks throughout an army for sake of game balance.

With regards,
Dan.

Revelations
28-02-2010, 20:24
I've been working on my own Dex for a bit now (2.0 version, ha!) and so far I've been prety pleased with it, as other who have tried. It pretty much contains everything I'd like to see (although admittedly I'm still working on a lot of things). A few key things it has are; a New Raider Varient, Dreadclaws, better possessed rules, more options all around, Hatreds, extra Psychic Powers, more Daemon Weapons, etc.

So far a few games under my belt and with others it's been pretty balanced and fun. At least much more than our current official version.

Vaktathi
28-02-2010, 21:04
Hate to burst the bubble for you but as far as i know all chaos SM's worship.... big suprise.... CHAOS. If they don't whorship chaos they're not chaos SM's, they're at best reenegades, or some other form of non-chaos affilliated marine thats not loyalist. Being chaos worshipers is central to the whople CSM thing. Sure most new CSM don't start out worshiping chaos, and not all of them worship one specific god in the end. But overall thats the big thing that defines them, everything else that makes them diffrent just comes from there. I take it you aren't hugely familiar with the background on the Night Lords and Iron Warriors, along with much of the Alpha Legion and Black Legion then? They acknlowedge Chaos as a great power, but do not make their works in the name of Chaos, but rather Chaos to them is a means to wage their wars against the Imperium.

Many Chaos Space Marines are are not wholly dedicated to Chaos, rather Chaos is their weapon against the Imperium which they utilize knowing full well what boons it may bring along with the knowledge that it may damn then and corrupt them. The Space Marines of the Cult Legions and the Word Bearers are devoted to the worship and glory of Chaos, but many others are not in it for the sake of Chaos.

Lord of Worms
28-02-2010, 21:28
I agree with this to a degree, and I will say for all its faults (and they are many) the new CSM book does allow for a well represented RENEGADES army.


Actually it doesn't. Lords with daemon weapons, warbands of thirty guys led by PAIRS of Daemon Princes, Obliterators, heresy era equipment, no new equipment, summoned daemons etc... None of these are a reasonable representation of recent renegades. There is nothing about the current codex that makes it a Renegade codex as opposed to a Legion codex, aside from poorly written fluff and a slapped together roster of "Green Renegade Marine", "Black Robed Marine", and everybody's favourite "Kwijybo Huron Blackheart". Apparently, cult legion marines are easier to recruit than in the "Legion" codex, and irrespective of insipid explanations of why a brand new renegade would ditch his assault cannon in favour for a reaper cannon, or jettison the plasma cannon entirely, I have yet to understand what this codex is actually supposed to be. Is the idea to encourage people's "creativity " by having making the Eye of Terror a massive draft pick with absolutely no organization at all?

Honestly, I fail to see how any legitimately designed renegade force couldn't be represented with the Smurfs Dex. Any Khorne force would probably be well served by using the Space Wolves codex, and the rest of us have to suck it up and play Epic and Necromunda until the new codex comes along. I tried to make this codex work, I really did but combined with the crappy ruleset and waves of unbalanced power creep just make even attempting to play a waste of time.


For an army that should be all about creativity and imagination, where you have a blank-canvas to paint your own insane abominations of any colour and theme as extreme as one could imagine - Chaos marines seem to be the complete opposite ; merely a template/preset thats been done to death (death-guard, emperors children, thousand sons ect), And I thought thats what the preset-loyal chapter codices were for ? IMO, chaos marines should be more imaginative than that. Saddens me that people lack the creativity and imagination to create their own UNIQUE warband and just follow the same tired templates that have existed since the Legions were written about.

Have you actually ever tried to sit through some thirteen year old's explanation of what makes his "renegades" so "cool" and "creative"? Khorne Berzerkers bedecked with yin-yangs anyone? I would be happier if this kind of thing wasn`t encouraged as the norm. If people want to do their own thing, they always could, and always will be able to.

I consider creativity to be balanced with taste as the way to go. If I do a legion my own way, yet have it be entirely self-evident as what's what and why I did it this way then that's a success, not a cop out. Taking Dark Angel veterans, painting them black, and making up some lame half-assed story about how some chapter you never heard of decided to go emo does not make you creative; it makes you a tool with an exaggerated sense of self -importance.

Griffindale
28-02-2010, 21:37
I disagree. I think the current codex does a fantastic job of representing both legions AND renegades. They just need to bring it more in line with the current codexes and it will be fine.

Traitors get the old gear because they aren't going to be able to maintain the 'new' gear for long. War takes a heavy toll and those guys scavenge what they can get. They're also rock hard. PM: tough as nails. CSM: Darn solid troops. KB: Make UFC fighters look like little girls! They just need to flesh it out a bit and it will be fine.

Griffindale
28-02-2010, 21:47
If you define evil as having malign goals towards your species/race. Then yes, chaos is very evil. Most CSM seem to have a twisted Darwinian outlook that only the strong deserve to live. Basically, they don't respect non-astartes and even within their own social groups(word for this? Not cliques) they are constantly seeking to serve their own needs and goals. Why? Because only weaklings are too afraid to strive for what they truly want!

Also, lets face it. After wandering around in the warp for millenia, the warp being a parallel dimension ruled by caricatures of human emotion bent on perpetuating their own existence at the expense of their hosts, chaos space marines will eventually become that. Caricatures of the desires they once had.

PapaDoc
28-02-2010, 21:48
Have Mat Ward write the codex. Bonus points if we get rules for chaos haradrim.. :D. In all seriousness, fifth edition Codex Space Marines is one of the most well written and lets you use tons of different armies in one book. Mobility is what makes 40k games interesting. Chaos doesn't have it.

Oh and I want a disclaimer in the new codex that says:
" Please forgive my last book
- Gav Thorpe".

stainawarjar
28-02-2010, 21:56
No Lash

No Warptime

PapaDoc
28-02-2010, 22:00
No Lash

No Warptime

What? :eek: This doesn't sound like a chaos player. No, there is something wrong here.

Ironhand
28-02-2010, 22:39
No Lash

No Warptime

Nothing wrong with Lash that couldn't be fixed simply by requiring players to take at least one troop unit with a given mark before taking any HQ with the same mark. This would stop the silliness of things like two Slaanesh Daemon Princes with Lash backed up by a horde of Plague Marines.

Warptime is no worse than a number of other powers in several other Codexes.

TimLeeson
28-02-2010, 22:43
Have you actually ever tried to sit through some thirteen year old's explanation of what makes his "renegades" so "cool" and "creative"? Khorne Berzerkers bedecked with yin-yangs anyone? I would be happier if this kind of thing wasn`t encouraged as the norm. If people want to do their own thing, they always could, and always will be able to.

I consider creativity to be balanced with taste as the way to go. If I do a legion my own way, yet have it be entirely self-evident as what's what and why I did it this way then that's a success, not a cop out. Taking Dark Angel veterans, painting them black, and making up some lame half-assed story about how some chapter you never heard of decided to go emo does not make you creative; it makes you a tool with an exaggerated sense of self -importance.

Well, my gaming group has one guy doing crystaline chaos marines, another did his chaos marines with a strong babylonian/assyrian theme - complete with babylonian daemons/cultists and we had another do the chaos equivilent of the flame falcons, and made it look like they were made out of fire with daemonic wings of flame. All these guys did a serious amount of sculpting, heavy conversion work and all sorts of stuff (and way more skillful than anything I could I might add :p).

Thats what I want to see from Chaos space marines, real creativity and imagination with no limits as to how to represent corruption. I get bored seeing the samey looking legion armies outside my gaming group, and the loyalist marines often tend to have more creativity/imagination when the traitors have even more potential which is just plain weird.

This could easily be done by giving the Legions more variety and allow people to do things differently. Not limiting paint-schemes, giving them MORE imagery and backround to work from ect. I'd be happy to be proven wrong and see some really cool/creative legion armies though btw.

And yes the nerf comment was tongue in cheek. Sorry I didnt make that clear. :)

Corrode
28-02-2010, 22:44
Hate to burst the bubble for you but as far as i know all chaos SM's worship.... big suprise.... CHAOS. If they don't whorship chaos they're not chaos SM's, they're at best reenegades, or some other form of non-chaos affilliated marine thats not loyalist.

Neither the Iron Warriors nor the Night Lords worship Chaos to any great degree. Both of them use the power of Chaos to their own ends, but they're certainly not dedicated Chaos-worshipping forces like the World Eaters or Emperor's Children. I imagine one would have a hard time convincing people that the Iron Warriors are not Chaos Marines, particularly when they were so prolific until very recently.

ColonalKlink
01-03-2010, 00:41
index astartes clearly supports what you have just said corrode, i know this as i just spent 15 mins finding the bloody WD's with them in... although the iron warriors one had a nice tid'bit about deamonically powered bionics...

Lord of Worms
01-03-2010, 00:50
Neither the Iron Warriors nor the Night Lords worship Chaos to any great degree. Both of them use the power of Chaos to their own ends, but they're certainly not dedicated Chaos-worshipping forces like the World Eaters or Emperor's Children. I imagine one would have a hard time convincing people that the Iron Warriors are not Chaos Marines, particularly when they were so prolific until very recently.

Just because they aren`t religious fanatics, that doesn`t mean they aren`t Chaos Marines. That bit of common sense should be pretty self evident.

Occulto
01-03-2010, 01:03
Well, my gaming group has one guy doing crystaline chaos marines, another did his chaos marines with a strong babylonian/assyrian theme - complete with babylonian daemons/cultists and we had another do the chaos equivilent of the flame falcons, and made it look like they were made out of fire with daemonic wings of flame. All these guys did a serious amount of sculpting, heavy conversion work and all sorts of stuff (and way more skillful than anything I could I might add :p).

Thats what I want to see from Chaos space marines, real creativity and imagination with no limits as to how to represent corruption. I get bored seeing the samey looking legion armies outside my gaming group, and the loyalist marines often tend to have more creativity/imagination when the traitors have even more potential which is just plain weird.

This.

It's ironic that Chaos seems more regimented than the Imperial forces.

And a lack of options is not the reason either. The previous codex produced it's own fair share of "paint by numbers" army building.

"Oh so your Khorne army is all in units of 8? Stopped by the Talisman of Burning Blood factory outlet on the way? I don't see any rhinos and... no terminators? That's not surprising, as it is rather difficult to fit 8 of them in 1500 points. I see the Daemon Prince with the usual upgrades too." :eyebrows:

sabreu
01-03-2010, 01:04
I've always found it funny how everyone want's to play legions, yet never really understood the legions stopped functionally operating after the scourging for one reason or another. Whether disbanding into warbands/cells (Emperor's children, World Eaters, Alpha Legion, Night Lords), Unable to repopulate (Thousand Sons, due to the Rubric), choosing to remain largely on their Daemonworld (Deathguard, Iron Warriors, Word Bearers). The Black Legion are an exception, maintaining their legion stylings while actively attacking the materium. Even so, only Deathguard, Iron warriors, and Wordbearers (alongside the Black Legion) could ever field a true legion worthy army. The rest are just shadows of former greatness.

Lord of Worms
01-03-2010, 01:36
Not really. Emperor`s Children and World Eaters are scattered. That`s it. Alpha Legion are explicitly mentioned on several occasions of having a high command they all answer to. Just because they don`t hang out at annual barbecues doesn`t mean they`re scattered. Typhus plaguefleet apparently second only to Abaddons is flying around all the time doing its thing. Thousand Sons are recruiting new guys and founding cults all the time, both the EoT faction and Ahrimans. I dont know anything about Night Lords activities, but those emo losers can rot in hell for all I care.;)

The Black Legion are the worst possible example of a Legion army. I have no clue how theyre apparently as powerful as they are, but each company does its own thing until Abaddon orders them around. They are full of transients from other legions/chapters. None of their companies bear any resemblance to one other in any way, whether gods worshiped or anything else.

Vaktathi
01-03-2010, 02:35
Just because they aren`t religious fanatics, that doesn`t mean they aren`t Chaos Marines. That bit of common sense should be pretty self evident.

That was the point, not all CSM's are devoted religious fanatics of the Dark Gods, but that doesn't mean they are not CSM's. There was an earlier assertion that all CSM's are religious Warp fanatics.

vladsimpaler
01-03-2010, 02:40
"Oh so your Khorne army is all in units of 8? Stopped by the Talisman of Burning Blood factory outlet on the way? I don't see any rhinos and... no terminators? That's not surprising, as it is rather difficult to fit 8 of them in 1500 points. I see the Daemon Prince with the usual upgrades too." :eyebrows:

Maybe because Khorne's sacred number is 8 (and multiples thereof) and it's always been like that? :rolleyes:

Sorry but that's how the Legions have worked.

The problem is the lack of Chaotic attributes and mutations for the Legion's tactical squads. There wasn't really anything in 3.5 that really did this.

Slaves to Darkness (and Lost and the Damned) had "regimented" legions in the sense that they were in the their patron deity's sacred number (or a multiple of it), but the amount of wacky mutations that they had made them ANYTHING but ordinary.

ColonalKlink
01-03-2010, 02:45
im not sure but.. are the night lords scattered ? i have never seen anything that says they are, i assume they would be though, i'd imagine them being kinda like Orks, the lord is incharge simply by being the nastiest badarse around.

The Iron Warriors are without doubt well organised, try laying siege to anything without being organised.
(I mean organised within their warbands, not by peturabo)

Also Night Lords/Iron Warriors/Alpha Legion are chaotic not Chaos, I will try to explain, they do things out of greed/revenge/for the hell of it, and if the big 4 get a slice of that pie.. meh, its a bonus, not a end unto itself. This why they didnt get alot or any Deamons in 3.5 CSM codex, but they still had DP

senorcardgage
01-03-2010, 02:48
Some things I'd like to see, although some may have been mentioned before.

~ I'd like to see tougher demon princes. Their cost should be increased, but these dudes should be absolutely badass! Also make them 0-1

~ I'd like to see chaos lords being tougher too. It would be cool if they had some access to chaos gifts like they used to, but obviously pulled way back from how it was in the last book.

~ Taking an HQ with a particular mark allows you to take cult troops from their respective god as troops. ie) no plague marine troops if you only have a khornate prince.

~ Personally, I would really like to see Chaos going more in the 'veteran' direction. WS5 maybe? Obviously this would come with a price hike. I hate how CSM are basically crappier grey hunters as it is now. Maybe have two units of troops, one representing recent recruits and another representing the more veteran soldiers. Then again, maybe that could just be the chosen.

~ Chosen that are actually good, other than for taking tonnes of special weapons. I'm thinking WS5, 2A, etc. Cost a lot of points.

~ Traitor guard would be awesome.

~ Obviously fix the chaos landraider. Not having any sort of machine spirit rule makes it absolutely rubbish; I don't care if it costs less.

~ More chaos-specific units similar to the defiler. Kinda like the cool stuff FW puts out.

~ Rework spawn to be useful :)

~ I would really like to see really good special characters similar to what you see in the current books.

Occulto
01-03-2010, 02:55
Maybe because Khorne's sacred number is 8 (and multiples thereof) and it's always been like that? :rolleyes:

Sorry but that's how the Legions have worked.

Strange how they always have exactly the right number of troops in each of the scattered warbands to make it all neat and tidy.

I always wondered what happened to a squad that lost a casualty in a previous battle.

"I'm sorry, Karthax the Skull Destroyer - until you can rustle up another berzerker, you're going to have to sit this one out. Nothing p***es off the Lord of Murder more than a unit taking to the field with only seven guys. No, don't give me those puppy dog eyes, I don't make the rules - our patron might be insane, but he likes to keep things neat." :p

Samus_aran115
01-03-2010, 03:22
Chaos Ultrmarines. That's what I want.

Hehe, that's almost oxymoronic.

sabreu
01-03-2010, 03:34
Take my following opinions with a grain salt here as a non-chaos player:



~ I'd like to see tougher demon princes. Their cost should be increased, but these dudes should be absolutely badass! Also make them 0-1

0-1 is unnecessary in my opinion, as GW is tending to seperate fluff from rules with 5th edition. If two Ork Warbosses can be in the same list, I don't see why Daemon princes should not be able to.


~ I'd like to see chaos lords being tougher too. It would be cool if they had some access to chaos gifts like they used to, but obviously pulled way back from how it was in the last book.

Chaos Lords by their definition need to be tougher. These are viscious warrior who often have to take their warbands by force. They should be privy to really amazing wargear and/or skills. Totally agree with you on this one.


~ Taking an HQ with a particular mark allows you to take cult troops from their respective god as troops. ie) no plague marine troops if you only have a khornate prince.

This is an unnecessary complication in my opinion. It stiffles creativity and gameplay solely on 'fluff' grounds.


~ Personally, I would really like to see Chaos going more in the 'veteran' direction. WS5 maybe? Obviously this would come with a price hike. I hate how CSM are basically crappier grey hunters as it is now. Maybe have two units of troops, one representing recent recruits and another representing the more veteran soldiers. Then again, maybe that could just be the chosen.

I don't think this is the right approach. This isn't Codex: Legions, it's Codex: Chaos Space Marines. It has to represent Renegades and Legions respectively.


~ Chosen that are actually good, other than for taking tonnes of special weapons. I'm thinking WS5, 2A, etc. Cost a lot of points.

This is where we need some big improvements. WS5, 2A base, give them preset special skills you can choose from (example: "Seige Specialists", get tank hunters and Relentless, or "Harbingers of Blood", get Furious Charge and count-attack, etc etc). These are the real legionnaires. Let all lord's and special characters make these guys troops.


~ Traitor guard would be awesome.

No! Let's get Codex: Lost and the Damned instead. Leave the allying to apoc or scenarios with your friends.


~ Obviously fix the chaos landraider. Not having any sort of machine spirit rule makes it absolutely rubbish; I don't care if it costs less.

There is no reason Chaos marines should be left out on the loop with land raiders. If GW really doesn't want them to have Redeemers or Crusaders, let's get some unique pre-heresy or Chaos original variants loyalist aren't privy to anymore.


~ More chaos-specific units similar to the defiler. Kinda like the cool stuff FW puts out.

Definitely! More actual differences the better!


~ Rework spawn to be useful :)

I would really love to see Spawn that weren't originally my own troops.


~ I would really like to see really good special characters similar to what you see in the current books.

I think CSM have a good amount of units that are aching for some new characters. A Night Lord raptor character that can be bought with a squad for example!


Also, I think CSM need to bring back the Dark Apostles, get Dreadclaws into the mix, and introduce fluff units that havn't existed yet like Berzerker-surgeons (apothecary equivelants) and renegade Tech-marines. There is alot of room to create new units, so lets have at it GW. I'm tired of just seeing cult troops, and cult troops, and more cult troops.

vladsimpaler
01-03-2010, 04:26
Strange how they always have exactly the right number of troops in each of the scattered warbands to make it all neat and tidy.

I always wondered what happened to a squad that lost a casualty in a previous battle.

"I'm sorry, Karthax the Skull Destroyer - until you can rustle up another berzerker, you're going to have to sit this one out. Nothing p***es off the Lord of Murder more than a unit taking to the field with only seven guys. No, don't give me those puppy dog eyes, I don't make the rules - our patron might be insane, but he likes to keep things neat." :p

As we're talking about realism, I'm debating whether or not I should bring up the fact that we're talking about a universe where you can run across a battlefield and hit the enemy with a chainsaw sword. ;)

Honestly I would just imagine that they wouldn't have as much favor with Khorne.

Khorne has his sacred number but I would imagine that he'd be more angry if you didn't spill blood in his name.

Lord of Worms
01-03-2010, 04:41
0-1 is unnecessary in my opinion, as GW is tending to seperate fluff from rules with 5th edition. If two Ork Warbosses can be in the same list, I don't see why Daemon princes should not be able to.

The excessive separation of rules/fluff in current codices is not something I would like to see continue in the next cycle of codices. Allowing people to build gamey lists will only encourage it, and penalize players who dont. The list should be powerful enough not to need two daemon princes to be competitive. Especially if they end up making DPs more powerful, as many people are asking for.


This is an unnecessary complication in my opinion. It stiffles creativity and gameplay solely on 'fluff' grounds. (RE: Marked Lords unlocking cult troops)
......SNIP
Also, I think CSM need to bring back the Dark Apostles, get Dreadclaws into the mix, and introduce fluff units that havn't existed yet like Berzerker-surgeons (apothecary equivelants) and renegade Tech-marines. There is alot of room to create new units, so lets have at it GW. I'm tired of just seeing cult troops, and cult troops, and more cult troops.

I see the current design mechanic of replacing the traits and doctrines with leaders who unlock composition options as more-or-less a good idea. As such, there is no reason to not pull it back to how it was in 3 and 3.5. If the list is designed so that the only specialized assault troops are Khorne Berzerkers , then that is a flawed list. There should be decent assault troops available to everybody, and Berzerkers being the super-killy, terrifying foes theyre supposed to be. If you dont want a Khorne marked lord, then spending an elites choice on them is an acceptable trade,IMO.

Marked guys should be special, a centrepiece of the army. Not some cut/paste min-maxing element where you slap together a combination out of unreasonable collaborations. For this codex to be effective, nobody should have to sacrifice fluff for competitive ability. This isnt as hard as it sounds, a few fan-dexes have done a pretty good job of demonstrating how to do it. All GW has to do is want to do it.



I don't think this is the right approach. This isn't Codex: Legions, it's Codex: Chaos Space Marines. It has to represent Renegades and Legions respectively.

As I said before, people who want a Renagades themed list will build them anyways and use either Codex:CSM or Codex:SM (which is in every way a better way to do it). I dont think that there is a good way to represent both Renegades and Legions effectively in the streamlined codex they will want to publish. That said, as it stands now there is no way to represent a legion force except for using Space Wolves as World Eaters, but several ways to represent Renegades. Thats unbelievably infuriating, and totally out of touch with what players want.

sabreu
01-03-2010, 05:11
The excessive separation of rules/fluff in current codices is not something I would like to see continue in the next cycle of codices. Allowing people to build gamey lists will only encourage it, and penalize players who dont. The list should be powerful enough not to need two daemon princes to be competitive. Especially if they end up making DPs more powerful, as many people are asking for.

There is nothing inherently preventing more than one daemon prince from appearing one the same battlefield, as is this case for an Eldar Avatar (A solitaire daemon statue, one per craftworld)


I see the current design mechanic of replacing the traits and doctrines with leaders who unlock composition options as more-or-less a good idea. As such, there is no reason to not pull it back to how it was in 3 and 3.5. If the list is designed so that the only specialized assault troops are Khorne Berzerkers , then that is a flawed list. There should be decent assault troops available to everybody, and Berzerkers being the super-killy, terrifying foes theyre supposed to be. If you dont want a Khorne marked lord, then spending an elites choice on them is an acceptable trade,IMO.

I'll concede on that one.


Marked guys should be special, a centrepiece of the army. Not some cut/paste min-maxing element where you slap together a combination out of unreasonable collaborations. For this codex to be effective, nobody should have to sacrifice fluff for competitive ability. This isnt as hard as it sounds, a few fan-dexes have done a pretty good job of demonstrating how to do it. All GW has to do is want to do it.

Most of the actual CSM armies I've seen in NJ havn't really been a cut/paste min-maxing element so prevelant on the net. There are still center pieces and very fluffy, yet effective armies out there. Still, more options are certainly needed for the army that deserves the most variation.


As I said before, people who want a Renagades themed list will build them anyways and use either Codex:CSM or Codex:SM (which is in every way a better way to do it). I dont think that there is a good way to represent both Renegades and Legions effectively in the streamlined codex they will want to publish. That said, as it stands now there is no way to represent a legion force except for using Space Wolves as World Eaters, but several ways to represent Renegades. Thats unbelievably infuriating, and totally out of touch with what players want.

This is the only point of contention I have with internet chaos players views on the subject. World Eater warbands are NOT best represented using Space Wolves: They are an army of Khorne dedicated CSM, with the Mark of Khorne where applicable and with a healthy dose of Khorne berzerkers.

As far the codex itself, yes it can represent both Renegades and Legions effectively. The current one does a poor job of it not because of some perceived impossibility, but because it suffers from a design ethos that has left the codex crippled in wake of the more recent releases. In the next iteration of Chaos, you can believe it's going to get alot better. They've removed Daemons for good and left CSM gutted out leaving plenty of room to grow. Let's get more productive and utilitarian units that aren't legion based!

In order to get a Legion feel, all the new dex has to do is incorporate some cool new units, redefine the older ones, introduce army changing characters (especially introducing ones that aren't pretty much random tag-alongs) that effect army playstyle and composition greatly, and update the armoury.

Lord of Worms
01-03-2010, 05:22
There is nothing inherently preventing more than one daemon prince from appearing one the same battlefield, as is this case for an Eldar Avatar (A solitaire daemon statue, one per craftworld)

Just like nothing was stopping Heinz Guderian and Erwin Rommel from commanding the same panzer formation...that doesnt mean it happened.
Its a daemon PRINCE, not daemon yeoman or something. At the scale of battles a standard non-apocalypse game of 40k is supposed to represent, it is entirely inappropriate. They dont even let you have multiple daemon princes in EPIC! Yes, thats right, the same game with Imperator titans and hundreds of dudes...one daemon prince.

Daemon princes in CSM armies are more or less sovereign commanders, so while they might co-operate with one another, I doubt htey would both participate in thirty man skirmishes. There should be a level of mystique and importance about them, not having them as the Spikey marine version of a Hive Tyrant.


This is the only point of contention I have with internet chaos players views on the subject. World Eater warbands are NOT best represented using Space Wolves: They are an army of Khorne dedicated CSM, with the Mark of Khorne where applicable and with a healthy dose of Khorne berzerkers.

With the exception of daemons, a given model pool made into an army with the Wolves codex, and the same model pool using C:CSM ? Are you serious?
Look at both lists.

Lone Wolves : Berzerkers with the 3.5 ed Berzerker Glaive
Thunderwolf Cavalry: Juggernaught riders
Fenrisian Wolves: Flesh hounds
Blood Claws: Neophyte berzerkers
Characters that are resistant to psychic powers
Characters that dont suck
Vehicles and Dreadnoughts that are worth taking

ColonalKlink
01-03-2010, 05:30
yep i agree with worms, buff the hell out of DP's, in my ideal world they should be 250pt's BEFORE addons, with the tasty stats that points cost justifies, also no 0-1 if they do, if you want 2 500 pt's is a good limiter

Born Again
01-03-2010, 07:13
Well... generic Chaos Marines and their veterans have been worse (equipment aside) than standard marines since at least 2nd ed (same stats, but lacking special morale rules). The idea that most Chaos Marines are more experienced and better than standard Space Marines is obviously not one that GW accepted themselves.


This is best explained like this:


try the 3rd ed codex. It's accepted. it's just the current dex isn't supposed to represent the HH vetrans only the recent turncoats.

Because:



I have to take issue with this statement. The idea that the bulk of current CSM forces are Horus Heresy veterans doesn't stand up to even the most cursory application of logic. The Legions didn't go into the Eye of Terror at full strength in the first place, they went in after the bloody, failed siege of Terra. Then, you've got the attrition of 10,000 years of constant warfare to consider. Even with ridiculously low attrition rates, by the 41rst millenium you'd be talking well over 100% casualties. Plus, any HH vets who are anything less than Chaos Lords or Sorcerors would be ridiculous underachievers. The bulk of the CSM forces has to be later recruits, which means they'd be no more entitled to be any more cool than the average loyalist.

Nor does the "time does funny things in the Warp" argument entitle CSMs to be cooler than loyalists, either. If a CSM is caught in a slow time pocket, then he's gaining experience at the rate he'd gain it in the pocket, not in the main time stream. So, if it's been a year for the CSM in question while it's been 10,000 for the rest of the galaxy, then he's basically an anachronistic schmuck, not suddenly a mighty champion for having stumbled on a shortcut through the millenia.


It seems a pretty simple idea that all the Legion fanboys can't seem to get a grip on. No, of course every single CSM in the galaxy is 10,000 years old and personally fought at Horus' side :rolleyes:

Vaktathi
01-03-2010, 07:20
Yet it's something that's been reinforced in the 2E, 3E, 3.5E books, much of the black library fluff, as well as the Dawn of War series (especially the first DoW and Dark Crusade where they explicitely mention this to be the case) that many of the CSM's are in fact Heresy Era veterans. It's not something that was just a short flight of fancy.

CSM's have never had the same morale rules, but have had other abilities in different areas to make up for it, with less constrained organization.

Calling people "fanboy's" for this isn't exactly going to endear them in any way or make them want to listen to your argument. There's certainly a logic the the bulk of such forces should not be given attrition and 10,000 years of war, but then again, we play in a game universe where armies still fight with axes and swords instead of planetary annihilator nuke guns 38,000 years in the future.

Corrode
01-03-2010, 10:13
Just because they aren`t religious fanatics, that doesn`t mean they aren`t Chaos Marines. That bit of common sense should be pretty self evident.

No, the guy doesn't get to make absolute statements (ALL Chaos Marines worship Chaos) and then have someone say 'but they're still CSM because it's common sense.' If we can agree that you can be a Chaos Marine without worshipping Chaos (and they really, emphatically, do not worship Chaos, not even close to the same way that the Cult Legions or the Word Bearers or most Cultists do) then we can agree that one does not necessarily need the Mark of Chaos Undivided to qualify as a Chaos Marine.

e: I think Occulto's point is a good one, too. Sacred numbers are cool and all, but it's one more thing which people seem to want to be rewarded for doing when it makes no damn sense. If you want to have a blessing for being in a sacred number squad that's fine, but then as soon as you take a casualty (and dip under the sacred number) then you should surely lose that blessing, unless Khorne isn't so finicky and cares more about BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD and less about whether his troops are arranged in pretty patterns.

samiens
01-03-2010, 10:35
I'm going to admit I haven't waded through the whole thread but I have a few thoughts:

Chaos marines are starting to get hurt by their cost- I'd rather not add extra abilities for a tiny model count: I'm ok knowing they are ancient veterans.

That said, some new stuff would be good- preferably something that adds character to the army too- I like the idea of being able to upgrade plague marines to terminators- but the cost should be ludicrously prohibitive.

Bring back marks- will anyone disagree with that?

Don't go back to the needlessly restrictive legion system- in most cases cult units will cover the legions and personally I quite like the idea of say Alphas with summoned daemons as cultists and so on. What I don't want to see is terribly ordered restrictive book that implies nothing has happened in 10,000 years; that massively rewards arbitrary squad sizes and stifles creativity for prescription (so basically no 3.5 ed codex)

WinglessVT2
01-03-2010, 10:48
The 'legion system' wasn't restrictive at all, unless you stuck hardcore to the legions themselves, which many did, despite the obvious limitations and handicaps.

World eaters didn't get to field raptors.
Deathguard didn't let you field any heavy weapons, and fielding more than just a handful of rhinos sucked away fast attack slots.

Those are two examples of the legions - not the gods' other subjects.

There was nothing stopping you from taking a lord or prince marked by khorne, running khorne marked marines as troops, with some unmarked ones thrown in for good measure, and fielding plague marines as elites.

I didn't run any legion, and focused on the overpriced veteran skills instead.

Born Again
01-03-2010, 11:06
Yet it's something that's been reinforced in the 2E, 3E, 3.5E books, much of the black library fluff, as well as the Dawn of War series (especially the first DoW and Dark Crusade where they explicitely mention this to be the case) that many of the CSM's are in fact Heresy Era veterans. It's not something that was just a short flight of fancy.

CSM's have never had the same morale rules, but have had other abilities in different areas to make up for it, with less constrained organization.

Calling people "fanboy's" for this isn't exactly going to endear them in any way or make them want to listen to your argument. There's certainly a logic the the bulk of such forces should not be given attrition and 10,000 years of war, but then again, we play in a game universe where armies still fight with axes and swords instead of planetary annihilator nuke guns 38,000 years in the future.

The fanboy thing was some hyperbole and exaggeration because I'm confused by some people's adamant and constant arguing that a CSM codex should be depicting nothing but the survivors of the Battle for Terra. They frequently put down any other depiction of CSM, despite the fact that there are numerous references to the contrary.

You've given some rough sources on one side of the argument, but many also point to more modern Chaos Marines. The 2nd edition codex, for example, explicitly talks about the implantation of Space Marine organs in to new recruits and slaves during the Long War (pg 19) and also talks about Fabius Bile supplying slaves and clones as new recruits. All these new recruits would surely make up a sizable percentage after 10,000 years. Then, look at the description of Chosen: they are described as veterans of "many decades, often centuries, of combat". Surely then in a few decades can make you a chosen, any surviving Heresy era marines would be mighty Lords or Daemon Princes by now, be dead, or have turned to Spawn.

Also, for those who like to complain about the current book has reduced CSM to nothing more than "space pirates", I'd also remind them that the 2nd edition codex also included rules for Huron Blackheart and his Red Corsairs, as well as options for using a Post-Heresy Renegade Chapter: all you had to do was declare your force was Post-Heresy, and voila! you had access to Imperial Only and Ultramarine wargear.

I just don't understand the sentiment some show with such explicit hate towards non-Heresy surviving CSM, as though Gav Thorpe somehow dreamed them up and shoehorned them in just to troll Legion players, when in reality they've been there for a good 14 odd years. I'm not anti-Legion by any means, I just don't want to see Renegades wiped from existence to satisfy the grumblers. A perfect codex would allow representation of either in equal measure.

WinglessVT2
01-03-2010, 11:13
A chaos book needs to detail, and give coverage, to these factions: the ancient, old, rock-hard veterans of 10,000 years past, the legions that the veterans originate from, the cults that the legions have become, the demons, the gods, the traitors, heretics, and renegades, and their combined collective mass of insane, desperate cultist followers.

It's a big project, but the second 3rd edition book proved that it could be done.

pom134
01-03-2010, 11:41
I agree that the character of CSM has been stripped. 10,000 years of hate after being lied to by your father about what your and his purpose in the galaxy is will do awful things to you. Think Zso Sahaal.

Also I don't think the HH veteran idea is out of the question. Every single one of the ones remaining will have been fighting for almost 10 times longer than even Dante. Saying that they should be lords by now and that they are underachievers isn't quite right. I'd say that they don't need to be lords, but that our rules for regular CSM don't quite show you how badass they really are.

WinglessVT2
01-03-2010, 11:56
They have cloning, and the powers of gods on their side.
If you can bind a demon, that's not even of this world, into a steel coffin with limbs, or a cannon with spider legs, then you can bind the souls of the dead to new bodies, or just to their armor.

As a matter of fact, that's what Ahriman attempted, but it sorta backfired, and only achieved half of his goals.

Marines, for all intents and purposes, are pretty much immortal. If you don't kill them in battle, they can last for very long periods of time.

samiens
01-03-2010, 12:07
A chaos book needs to detail, and give coverage, to these factions: the ancient, old, rock-hard veterans of 10,000 years past, the legions that the veterans originate from, the cults that the legions have become, the demons, the gods, the traitors, heretics, and renegades, and their combined collective mass of insane, desperate cultist followers.

It's a big project, but the second 3rd edition book proved that it could be done.

I have to take issue as that particular project showed what a mess such a book will have to be- personally I'd like a balance between playablility and chracterful rules- the current book is the natural backlash to letting a chaos fanboy write the most ridiculous codex ever written.

Personally, when I think back to the 2nd ed chaos codex it worked pretty well- and just shows the need for a lost and the damned style codex for the triumverate of chaos armies- all I think is really lacking in the current codex is cult units beyond the troops and marks for daemons (I'm quite happy not adding another codex filling number of units to what we already have).

Given how different Chaos factions are we don't need one super codex as that will always be open to abuse as its just too hard to balance so many units in a reasonable production time- that said lets not go down the marine route with a codex for each legion- all we need isne for chaos marines (with enough cult units to allow for more characterful representation of legions), one for daemons and one for the lost and the damned

WinglessVT2
01-03-2010, 12:14
I liked the old book.
It had great appeal to me, lots of options, lots of builds, lots of bling, and lots of actual choice.

That's not even getting into the size of it, the fact that it's packed with background material, or the great art.

The 4th edition book looks like one of those 'alternative' marine pamphlets in comparison to this beast.

KingDeath
01-03-2010, 12:21
Regarding that whole 10000 years veterans vs recently turned renegades thing, why not have both?

I mean, the IG Codex manages to give the player the choice. Do you want a fairly standard force? Cool, take normal Platoons. You want to swarm your enemy? Fine, you have conscripts. Oh, good Sir...you wish to field elite soldiers? No problem! Take veterans!

Why not do something similar for Chaos? ( minus the conscripts of course, no Marine should ever be canonfodder ).

WinglessVT2
01-03-2010, 12:30
We sorta want all of it in one codex, but not with the imperial guard's way of running things.

Thanatos_elNyx
01-03-2010, 13:00
While I am not a huge fan of Special Characters being used to represent Legions, it does allow the Legion Rules to be used quite easily.
i.e. Take Ahriman (recently reintroduced to the Thousand Sons), you can now take Rubric Terminators but can't take Possessed, Noise Marines, Plague Marines or Khorne Berserkers, all champions are sorcerers, etc.

carl
01-03-2010, 14:54
Regarding this whole debate i sparked off here regarding certian legions and religion.

Perhaps i should have been clearer here:

By worship i mean doing anything that earns the chaos gods pleashure and approval.


Specificlly you don't get things like Marks, Deamon Weapons, Helpful Mutations, or the ability to construct things like Deamon Engies, (or summon deamons themselves), without doing somthing to appease or please the chaos gods. Sure some legions aren't bend a the knee stand in front of a shrine and pray and errect great monmuments types. But they still do things for the chaos gods, they still decicate great visctories and debased acts of all kinds in the gods names. And other similar things, (it's very SW like in many respects actually IMHO).

Regharding the legions: it';s made 100% obvious in the SW books that the Thousand Sons can ressurect any Fallen Marine so they're going to have nearly the same numbers they did at the time of the ruhberic even now. And i imagine most if niot all othe legions have some similar mechanisem in place, so the idea of huge numbers of legion troops still being abot is still valid IMHO.

Revelations
01-03-2010, 14:54
I think some people are really over thinking the Legion's idea, you're not going to be able to balance 3 seperate armies into one Codex. What some are asking for is a Chaos Space Marine + Daemon + Imperial Guard army all crammed together with their own unique rules and balanced. That seems a bit far fetched. Imagine what you could do synergy wise with the 3 current Codecies by themselves... all Nurgle Marine army backed by Epidemus? Fateweaver backing up Thousand Son Marines? The Summoned Greater Daemons actually being the Greater Daemons themselves? A Platoon Commander giving orders to ANY Marine unit? Leman Russ artillery supporting Marines or Daemons? Daemons already having icons on the table from start?

Then you need to consider redundancy. How many HQ choices will you have? How many will be too similar? How many units will be the same thing with 1 or 2 rules changed out?

Then consider the arbitrary decisions. If you enjoy the game of 'counts as', what's to prevent someone from running Slannesh Berserkers over Khorne Berserkers? Why would a Khorne Lord not use Raptors to back up his army? Why would he then not use Havocs?

But I am stealing the Veterans Idea...

Lord of Worms
01-03-2010, 15:04
No, the guy doesn't get to make absolute statements (ALL Chaos Marines worship Chaos) and then have someone say 'but they're still CSM because it's common sense.' If we can agree that you can be a Chaos Marine without worshipping Chaos (and they really, emphatically, do not worship Chaos, not even close to the same way that the Cult Legions or the Word Bearers or most Cultists do) then we can agree that one does not necessarily need the Mark of Chaos Undivided to qualify as a Chaos Marine.


Iron Warriors don't worship chaos? Is that why they don't have any daemon princes, or sorcerors, or Berzerkers, or possessed? Wait....

x-esiv-4c
01-03-2010, 15:08
I would like to see some divergence from the "spikey marine" syndome. I would also like to see CSM pose more of a threat in the galactic theatre. Since the last 'dex CSM has been relegated to warbands, drumming up images of spikey highway men demanding tolls to cross into the eye of terror.

egh.

Vaktathi
01-03-2010, 15:11
There's a difference between the way the Iron Warriors view and interact with Chaos and the way say, the Death Guard do. The Death Guard go about their business to bring glory to Nurgle and spread his works, their purpose is that of the Plague Lord, and the destruction of the hated Imperium works towards that goal, but really anything will do. The Iron Warrior's purpose is to destroy the false emperor and tear down the edifice of the Imperium, their veneration of the powers of Chaos is to bring them the power and might to successfully fight the Imperium.

One fights for a gods favor, the other seeks favor in order to fight. A key distinction.


You've given some rough sources on one side of the argument, but many also point to more modern Chaos Marines. The 2nd edition codex, for example, explicitly talks about the implantation of Space Marine organs in to new recruits and slaves during the Long War (pg 19) and also talks about Fabius Bile supplying slaves and clones as new recruits. All these new recruits would surely make up a sizable percentage after 10,000 years. Then, look at the description of Chosen: they are described as veterans of "many decades, often centuries, of combat". Surely then in a few decades can make you a chosen, any surviving Heresy era marines would be mighty Lords or Daemon Princes by now, be dead, or have turned to Spawn. While true, it also does mention a ritual that CSM's go through in order to remain sane in that they preserve some memories (the dying moment of a worthy foe or a moment of great triumph) and discard the rest that their mind remains intact over 10,000 years (maybe that's realm of chaos or the 3E book? IIRC it's 2E but I could be wrong), and they do explicitely mention in some instances (dawn of war mentions that the Alpha Legion they are facing are the same marines that fought against the Emperor 10,000 years before) of this. Also, with the distorting effect of the Warp, time between battles may be almost nothing, what may be 100 years outside may only be 1 inside the eye of terror in places. For many the Heresy may only have been a few decades ago.



Also, for those who like to complain about the current book has reduced CSM to nothing more than "space pirates", I'd also remind them that the 2nd edition codex also included rules for Huron Blackheart and his Red Corsairs, as well as options for using a Post-Heresy Renegade Chapter: all you had to do was declare your force was Post-Heresy, and voila! you had access to Imperial Only and Ultramarine wargear. Yes, but at the same time it wasn't the central overriding theme and you could take proper marks on pretty much everything and there was a much wider array of potential units to field. It did the whole combined legion/renegades thing much better than the current book.



I just don't understand the sentiment some show with such explicit hate towards non-Heresy surviving CSM, as though Gav Thorpe somehow dreamed them up and shoehorned them in just to troll Legion players, when in reality they've been there for a good 14 odd years. I'm not anti-Legion by any means, I just don't want to see Renegades wiped from existence to satisfy the grumblers. A perfect codex would allow representation of either in equal measure.Yes, the problem is the current codex doesn't do this, and seems to dump the Legions as much as possible, with many being given little more than a name and a color scheme. The army list doesn't make sense in either measure, and the Renegades are portrayed essentially as Emo-Marines (not intended I'm sure, but that's how it comes across) with Legions looking like an afterthought.

Lord of Worms
01-03-2010, 15:16
Yes, this is the difference between Pistis and Gnosis. Neither of them is synonymous with atheism.

Vaktathi
01-03-2010, 15:23
They don't necessarily always see them as Gods in the traditional sense with respect to the Iron Warriors and Night Lords, rather as a pantheon of great powers to be bargained with to provide them with strength that exceeds their own natural abilities. Some CSM's worship Chaos as divine powers, others see them basically as the equivalent of a highly venerated mob boss who can give you incredible resources at a very high price.

From the IW's index astartes article "They honor the Chaos Gods as a pantheon, but are not truly devout themselves." They bring sacrifice and honor to the Chaos Gods, but not in devout religious worship, rather as an exchange of "services".

sliganian
01-03-2010, 15:25
I'd like to see them listen more to the playtesters next time....... :rolleyes:

Lord of Worms
01-03-2010, 15:27
So although they do not have the qualities of faith or piety, they acknowledge their existance and power and want it for themselves. Pistis and Gnosis.

Project2501
01-03-2010, 15:28
Just use the 3.5 CSM codex.

samiens
01-03-2010, 15:35
Personally, if its a choice between another daft uber dex or the current one I'll stick with what we've got- no company can produced a balanced army with such a wide variety of units, and at the ned of the day its a game and should be as fair as possible- there's plenty of cool stuff in Imperial Armour for those who want more background oriented choices- the game has to be playable- the 3.5 ed codex hurt 40k for too long

DuskRaider
01-03-2010, 15:47
Yeah, 3.5 hurt 40K for too long... :rolleyes:

samiens
01-03-2010, 15:52
That's my opinion and I've been playing long enough and often enough to feel its valid- maybe you'd like to join the debate?

Its not that 3.5 was awful- its more that too many things got through because of the sheer scope- plus the utterly literal legion interpretation flew in the face of established background in my opinion, but tbh in 2nd ed which were my formative years noone cared for pure legion armies so that's my perspective.

Also, I'm quite happy with my Death Guard as a fluff army as I don't need mechanics to fuel my imagination- so the important thing for me is having a decent, balanced book- and frankly most of the 'one big book' ideas would make it hard for a company that specialised in balanced games- let alone one where, for the better in my opinion, the rule of cool is often more prevalent

borithan
01-03-2010, 17:07
somthing needs to be done to fix dreadnoughts/possessed as random should not = chaosWell...


Troops choices could tak vetran skills. or example Infiltrate, or Tank Hunters or Furious chage. That kind of ting, 9like old 4h ed trait marines except every unit could pick it's own traits)Ok, for a while, but the next Space Marine codex that came along allowed Veteran Loyalists to do the exact same thing (maybe not as freely, but they could pick appropriate Veteran skills). Those marines that truly were the extra experienced Veterans are represented by the characters you chose.

The Chaos codex should be about playing warbands, the weird, non regular, mixed kind of forces all levels of Chaos armies (ie both ancient Legion and recent renegades) field. Codex: Space Marines would only allow you to field a very, very recent renegade, like the Red Corsairs before they became the Red Corsairs.


We don't have any scoutsBut Chaos Space Marines shouldn't have scouts. They don't have the same recruitment methods as loyalist marines.


Chaos Space Marines should be like Sternguard/Vanguard in ability.Only veteran Chaos marines. Your "bog standard" Chaos Space Marine is worse (but only slightly, and only because they are selfish) than a loyalist marine.


they'd be less versatile than their Loyalist brothers.Hmm... if anything they should be more versatile. They are less constrained by military structure and discipline. OK, certain units shouldn't be, but as a whole the army should be more moddable than a loyalist one.


I want the guys who rebelled with humanity's best interest in mind,But they didn't. The motives of the Legions were selfish. Maybe some of the thoughts and emotions that took them towards the path of chaos were not selfish, but the actual betrayal itself was purely for selfish reasons. Horus may have thought that the Emperor didn't know the reality of the Imperium, but when it finally came to it he rebelled because he had decided he wanted the power. There may have been self deception involved, but it was selfish. OK, some members who were doing it out of loyalty to their leaders, but in almost all the cases the leadership itself did it purely out of selfish intent.


The Chaos gods are not necessarily evil.They are. Yes, certain aspects of the emotions that feed them are not, and they can have their less "evil" aspects to them (nurgle's odd paternalism towards his followers for example) but part of the idea behind them is that all the represented emotions will lead to evil when taken to an extreme, even if they are admirable, or even necessary, in more limited amounts. Martial pride is useful in a soldier, but take that to an extreme and it leads to evil. The Chaos gods are those emotions and drives taken to an extreme.


TS, IW, and ECOk, the Thousand Sons were partly forced into it (and they are the only ones I can think of that were), but the Iron Warriors and the Emperor's Children? The Iron Warriors rebelled out of bitterness and hurt pride at being made to do the drudge work while the other Legions gained glory. The Emperor's children were turned by the promises of exquisite sensations (in the older fluff) and their unquenchable desire to achieve perfection (in the Horus Heresy books).


Maybe have two units of troops, one representing recent recruits and another representing the more veteran soldiers.You mean like standard marines and Veteran marines?


I always wondered what happened to a squad that lost a casualty in a previous battle.Same problem existed pre 3rd ed Space Marines. They always came in units of 10. Even the Veteran squads...

Ddraiglais
01-03-2010, 17:22
Hate to burst the bubble for you but as far as i know all chaos SM's worship.... big suprise.... CHAOS. If they don't whorship chaos they're not chaos SM's, they're at best reenegades, or some other form of non-chaos affilliated marine thats not loyalist. Being chaos worshipers is central to the whople CSM thing. Sure most new CSM don't start out worshiping chaos, and not all of them worship one specific god in the end. But overall thats the big thing that defines them, everything else that makes them diffrent just comes from there.

As others have pointed out, they don't. The IW, NL, and AL don't. I don't think BL is overzealous. Those legions have individuals that worship Chaos, but the majority of them don't. They use Chaos as a means to an end. Of course they recognize the power of daemons and such, but they don't build altars. If you want to call four of the original Chaos legions renegades, then be my guest.


Your point about the legions is well made, (though AFAIK the WB, the WE, the WC can all be said to have turned willingly. Each was offered somthing by the Chaos gos that the emperor couldn't give them. the TS and DG where definte resluctant converts, the LW/SH, IW, i'm less clear on, Obviously their was Horus but why did the rest of the legion follow him, and i really don't know the IW full story. AL are a really crazy case and it's not even certian when they fell. As ever they're a mystery wrapped in an engima, contained within a conundroum).

They turned willingly, but they didn't turn to Chaos initially. They turned away from the Emperor. They thought that they knew a better path for humanity (WB being the exception). The LW followed their primarch. He was one of the most loved and respected men in the Galaxy. His legion was proud of him. They were his children (of sorts). A lot of them even looked like Horus. The IW were already jealous of the other legions in being denied glory. Their homeworld rebelled. They slaughtered the population of Olympia in a fit of rage. Once they realized what they had done, they were kinda stuck with Horus.


Ultimetly though quite a large prortion of the legions switched sides for purely selfish reasons. the WB and WE felt undervalued and where upset by their put downs. Chaos gave them what they wanted A god to worship/The Approval for their bloodthirsty ways they craved. The EC where similar the chaos gods gave them an outlet for their perfectionisem, and a chance to induldge their most decedent ways without fear of disaproval.

I'd say that most began to fall out of loyalty, duty, and martial pride. The WB are the biggest reason for the HH. They orchestrated the whole thing. They are the big exception. They were already worshipping Chaos before the Heresy. The WE have several reasons for falling. They could shed blood, and that's what eventually led them to Korne. However, part of it is Angron never forgave the Emp for leaving his men on his homeworld to die. The EC did seek perfection. They were vain. That did make for a match with Slaanesh. Their big fall came when their primarch became possesed though.


I also understand what your saying about following their leader and bitterness. But you don't just decide to start attacking your former commrades in arms because your leader says so, for most it takes a bit more than that. The Chjaos gods offered them somthing, a vision of somthing, maybe they thought it was a beetter galaxy, maybe not. Who knows who cares really. the fact is they turned and that caries consequences.

this is what i think many players ae having troubkle acepting.

Have you ever been in the military? When the fighting starts, you are not fighting for some flag. You are fighting for yourself and your buddies right next to you. You follow the man leading you without question. There were studies of German soldiers post WW II. The majority of them said they were fighting for the men next to them. They didn't fight for Nazi idealogy. They weren't even fighting for a greater Germany. What I'm saying is say a civil war broke out in the U.S. Most of the guys in 10th Mountain will fight for the guys in 10th Mountain. They wouldn't care if they were fighting against guys in the 101st.


Namely it dosen't matter why you started out fighting for chaos. It's a corruptng force. Expose yourself to it for two long and it has about the same effect on you as exsessive darkside use does on a edi. You end up as a seriously evil bad guy who does things eithier for his own personol gratification, power, or other personol benefit. In this respect Anakin Skywalker is the perfect example of the Chaos Legions and their development. He starts out beliving he's doing good and helping people. But over time his expiriances and sheer darkside expoushure leave him so twisted up he actually still thinks he's doing good whilst commiting the most henious of acts throughout the later stages of EpIII and the OT.

You won't get any argument from me on this point. Once Chaos gets it's claws on you, you are likely to follow down that path. Some of the Fallen might be exceptions. If GW still has the Illuminatti, then they'd be another exception.


I DO understand where your coming from here, but the end result of Chaos worship or exposhure is that you end up as an inherintly evil nasty bad guy doing evil things, you may think your doing it for X/Y/Z reason but in reality your just a puppet on your masters string.

Oh, the legions I mentioned are Chaos. They just don't worship Chaos. I'm not trying to say any of them are nice. I'm just saying they don't do evil for evil's sake. They do whatever they can to better themselves.


A brilliant example i remeber of this is a story of some death guard champion. He comes charging out of his raider swinging a pluage sword against some loylist marines. He goes around just barely catching them all commenting to himself about how he's giving them the gift of farther nurgle and how lucky they are, e.t.c. Yes you could say he's doing this as a way of revenge against them, but really his reasons aren't rleveant to what he's doing, he's still fighting his way to the top of the pile, he's still going round spreading nurgles desises for him e.t.c.

For me that story was a defining moment for chaos, it set in stone how i veiw them by and large, (i'm not saying some exposed to chaos can't go uncoruppted for a long time for example, jus that most do, and most of the legions must fall into this category).

Well, the four cult legions and WB are devout worshippers of Chaos. Those weren't the guys I was really arguing about. Although that's not why they initially fell (again, WBs excepted).


What i'm thus saying is it's the actions themselves rather than the reasoning for those actions. They can claim they're doing it for biterness or revenge or the good of humanity all they want, but it dosen't change the fact that in terms of what this means, they're still the same as people like Huroun Blackheart. These just aren't mentally the same marines we had at the time of the HH, they're no longer the tragic heroes, their just another, (albiet very powerful), CSM with all the guile, evil, backstabbing, psychopathic, (in narrow area's, not insane in general terms i mean), ways that goes with that, 10,000 tears of corrupption do that to you.

Agreed. However, I will maintain that they don't do evil just to do it. They do things to better their position in the EoT. Sometimes it might be for entertainment.


Are the reasons impiortant, sure i like to hear that kind of thing. but that dosen't change how they act very much, they still take the same actions, they just think they'e doing them for diffrent reasons.

Well a lot of the stories do make it more tragic.


Regarding the evil point:

Sure the IoM does evil things. They don't do them 24/7 to anything and everything they can get their hands on however. Thats the diffrance bewteen the 2. Normal Marines will virus bomb or lop the heads off of, or torture, or whatever else to the citezens of a world if they belive they are corrupt. hey woj't do it just because they happen to be in the area. With a CSM regardless of the more complex underlying psychology, it allways comes bac to: because i can.

Agreed as far as the current timeline is concerned. However, the long war is at the forefront of most (undivided) CSMs' thinking.


This is WHY DoW IS a good source. it dosen't dwell on why they do things, it just has them go off and do them and lets us worry about the motivation behind it. Sure there's some bad moments in the unit quotes. but the basic plotline of Bale and SIndri is typical Undivided/TZeenetchian behaviour. Both want power for whatever reason, one goes after it head on while the other plays tricks to get what he needs. With no thought given to the countless atrocities they commit to get them.

I liked Bale and Sindri. They were decent examples of a CSM's motivation. I don't like a lot of the units' lines in the game. Eliphas is a WB, so his motivations are different from other undivided CSM.


Thats what Chaos is about. Forget the motivations for a minute and all it is is a bunch of chaos worshiping marines going out on great killing sprees and power grabs all in the name of their patron/s with the hopes of getting more power from their master. Sure their may be bitterness and revenge as a motivation, but to repeat myself ad infinitum, thats not really releveant to what they ACTUALLY do.

I will argue the worshipping bit. I'd also argue that the motivation is important to an extent. That hatred is something that is iconic to CSM as far as I'm concerned.


EDIT: I'm, also not disagreeing that the STYLE of the current 4th ed fluff is bad, it's a lot like the DoW quotew: "can you hear the voices too". Sure it's funny and it's a good idea for the odd marine. But it dosen't represent chaos very well in general. A lot of 4t ed stuff suffers from this syndrome..

Exactly.



Iron Warriors don't worship chaos? Is that why they don't have any daemon princes, or sorcerors, or Berzerkers, or possessed? Wait....

Most of them don't. DPs are rewarded for doing a good job. You don't have to worship something to have the same goals. By achieving those goals, they get rewarded. Sorcerors use the power of the Warp. They may or may not worship Chaos. If this is your reasoning, then all farseers and librarians worship Chaos as well. Bezerkers may or may not worship Chaos. I do believe that some IW do worship Korne, and go way down that path. Possessed make deals with daemons. Just because you make deals with daemons does not mean that you worship the Chaos gods. Don't inquisitors bind/use daemons? Do they worship Chaos? The Avatar is a daemon. Does that make all Eldar Chaos worshippers? There is a difference between using what you can to advance your agenda and actually building altars and worshipping the Chaos gods.



The fanboy thing was some hyperbole and exaggeration because I'm confused by some people's adamant and constant arguing that a CSM codex should be depicting nothing but the survivors of the Battle for Terra. They frequently put down any other depiction of CSM, despite the fact that there are numerous references to the contrary.

This is why I have always pushed for multiple codices. If the OP wants to know what I really and truly want from the next Chaos dex, it's five codices.

The first would be like the current dex but with more loyalist weapons and fewer daemons and ancient weapons. It would be called Renegades. It would be for newer CSM.

The second will be for the cults. It would include rules for WE, DG, EC, and TS. They would get more daemons, but would be restricted to units from their own cult list. Animosity would definately play a big part (in Apocalypse/allied games).

The third would be for the remaining five legions. It would be similar to the 3.5 lists (though a bit toned down).

The fourth book would be daemons or daemon world armies. It would be like the current daemon book or maybe more like the daemon world army list from 2nd ed.

The last book would be LatD. It would have cultists, traitor guard, and mutants. It could include beasts if the daemon book didn't. It might have some daemons (I'd vote for the generic kind or the ones from the daemon list, but restricted in numbers).

If GW broke Chaos down into 5 codices, then everyone would be happy (except maybe DE players who would have to wait another decade for their codex :p).

Lord of Worms
01-03-2010, 20:50
DPs are rewarded for doing a good job. You don't have to worship something to have the same goals. By achieving those goals, they get rewarded.

The gods don't give "orders" the way an Army's High Command does.

"Chaos Lord Lloyd, in recognition of your service to the warp, in spite of your obstinate abuse of the word "worship", we hereby promote you to daemon prince...welcome to the country club"

Lloyd: ~spits on them~

No. It doesn't work like that.


Sorcerors use the power of the Warp. They may or may not worship Chaos. If this is your reasoning, then all farseers and librarians worship Chaos as well Sorcerors make pacts with warp entities to get power the likes of which librarians and farseers could only dream of. If you haven't been following the numerous threads and Index Astartes articles about the difference between psychic powers and sorcery you probably shouldn't be defending an exaggerated and skewed perspective on what you think the religion of these legions is.


There is a difference between using what you can to advance your agenda and actually building altars and worshipping the Chaos gods.

No there isn't. Everybody does what they can "to advance their agenda", or are the Word Bearers not "following their agenda"? Would they be better off without all the temples? People go to church and pray because they think it could actually make a difference. If they felt that God didn't give a rats ass and wasn't listening, they probably wouldn't bother.
Practically every religious ceremony, an act of worship, in ancient greece were sacrifices to the gods or games in their honour, for the express purpose of getting favourable omens and pleasant futures. Just because you want something in return, it doesn't stop being worship


Possessed make deals with daemons. Just because you make deals with daemons does not mean that you worship the Chaos gods
I suppose it makes you a pious Ecclessiarch instead, right?:rolleyes:
Marine: Ok, representative of the gods, in order for you to inhabit my body safely I have to meditate for a week straight, fast for a month, and have the sorcerors perform a ceremony so you can come in.
Daemon: I also have a list of demands....
Marine: Ok, lets see here... incense, regular blood sacrifices, OK. But only as long as we're clear on something, I won't worship you. I'm an atheist.
Daemon: :wtf: ~leaves~

Look up the definitions of pistis and gnosis, they are two possible mindsets that an individual or a religion takes in it's acts of worship. Excessive piety is a mark of pistis, pacts with daemons and apotheosis are religious experiences and are therefore gnosis. Every mythology and religion gives examples of this, and the relationship between the two concepts.


The Avatar is a daemon. Does that make all Eldar Chaos worshippers?
The Avatar counts as a daemon for gameplay purposes. It's what it's name says it is: "an AVATAR" of Khaine. You could call it a daimon, but in the original Greek sense, not the 40k Chaos sense.


Don't inquisitors bind/use daemons? Do they worship Chaos?
That's a deliberate grey area. Many would say yes. It depends on how much stake you feel motive has in determining what constitutes worship.
I'm not going to get into that here, but this is a good point. However, using this exception as an example to turn on it's head the accepted understanding of the nature of chaos isn't a good idea.

Corrode
01-03-2010, 23:16
"Chaos Lord Lloyd, in recognition of your service to the warp, in spite of your obstinate abuse of the word "worship", we hereby promote you to daemon prince...welcome to the country club"

Lloyd: ~spits on them~

No. It doesn't work like that.

There is a distinct difference between worshipping a god and making pacts with it. The Iron Warriors view the gods as just another source of power; give them what they want (blood, sex, disease and change), and you get what you want. They aren't doing it from a sense of worshipful devotion, they're doing it because it gets them what they want.

To put it another way, if a different set of gods rocked up tomorrow and the benefits of paying homage to them were greater than the benefits of sticking with the current Chaos pantheon, the Iron Warriors would abandon them in a heartbeat. The Death Guard, on the other hand, would probably remain devoted to Nurgle. This is the distinction that's being made, because a lot of Renegades do the same thing and the original assertion stated that they weren't 'proper' CSMs because they didn't worship the Chaos Gods. Neither do the IW, but there are few people who'd say they're not 'proper' CSM.

Vaktathi
01-03-2010, 23:27
There is a distinct difference between worshipping a god and making pacts with it. The Iron Warriors view the gods as just another source of power; give them what they want (blood, sex, disease and change), and you get what you want. They aren't doing it from a sense of worshipful devotion, they're doing it because it gets them what they want.

To put it another way, if a different set of gods rocked up tomorrow and the benefits of paying homage to them were greater than the benefits of sticking with the current Chaos pantheon, the Iron Warriors would abandon them in a heartbeat. The Death Guard, on the other hand, would probably remain devoted to Nurgle. This is the distinction that's being made, because a lot of Renegades do the same thing and the original assertion stated that they weren't 'proper' CSMs because they didn't worship the Chaos Gods. Neither do the IW, but there are few people who'd say they're not 'proper' CSM.

+over9000.

This explains the IW's and Night Lords nicely. While individuals in these Legions may seek the greater glories of Chaos and ascenscion to Daemonhood and worship of the Chaos Gods, these Legions as a whole (as well as likely the Alpha Legion) by and large don't see Chaos as an end or as anything divine. It is a dangerous power to be utilized and respected, something that can bring great fortune if tended well and something that can bring total ruination.


The gods don't give "orders" the way an Army's High Command does.

"Chaos Lord Lloyd, in recognition of your service to the warp, in spite of your obstinate abuse of the word "worship", we hereby promote you to daemon prince...welcome to the country club"

Lloyd: ~spits on them~

No. It doesn't work like that.
You're right, it doesn't, nobody is claiming that. Removing the hyperbole, it's closer to the following scenario

"Chaos Lord Lloyd, welcome to the Daemon Club"

"Sweet, this'll work out nicely for pursuing my fight against the Imperium"

As opposed to something like the Emperor's Children or Word Bearers.

"Welcome to the Daemon Club"

"This is just what I always wanted :D what should I do now?"

"Go fight something, the imperium if you like but anything will really do"

Lord of Worms
02-03-2010, 03:16
There is a distinct difference between worshipping a god and making pacts with it. The Iron Warriors view the gods as just another source of power; give them what they want (blood, sex, disease and change), and you get what you want. They aren't doing it from a sense of worshipful devotion, they're doing it because it gets them what they want.


Under that definition the Word Bearer's don't "worship" the gods either. Through their rituals and devotions they expect to be strengthened and to be successful in their aims. What you seem to imply is a slave-mentality where the devotees willingly submit themselves to remaining at the bottom of the totem pole and expect nothing in return.The whole point of the Heresy was that their sense of pride would not allow them to submit to such a mentality, hence the parallels to Paradise Lost. This whole debate hinges on a semantical discussion about the definition of worship, and I am arguing that acknowledgement of a given god or gods, and the performance of rites in exchange for boons is a form of worship.

If Nurgle abandoned the Death Guard and they started dying from warp-AIDS, I`m pretty sure they wouldn`t worship him either.

ShadowDeth
02-03-2010, 03:41
Up the front armor on the Defiler to 13, Jervis. Seriously.

Born Again
02-03-2010, 06:02
I have to take issue as that particular project showed what a mess such a book will have to be- personally I'd like a balance between playablility and chracterful rules- the current book is the natural backlash to letting a chaos fanboy write the most ridiculous codex ever written.

Personally, when I think back to the 2nd ed chaos codex it worked pretty well- and just shows the need for a lost and the damned style codex for the triumverate of chaos armies- all I think is really lacking in the current codex is cult units beyond the troops and marks for daemons (I'm quite happy not adding another codex filling number of units to what we already have).

Given how different Chaos factions are we don't need one super codex as that will always be open to abuse as its just too hard to balance so many units in a reasonable production time- that said lets not go down the marine route with a codex for each legion- all we need isne for chaos marines (with enough cult units to allow for more characterful representation of legions), one for daemons and one for the lost and the damned

Truth: The 3.5 codex was waaaay over the top, the 2nd edition book was a great codex.


I would like to see some divergence from the "spikey marine" syndome. I would also like to see CSM pose more of a threat in the galactic theatre. Since the last 'dex CSM has been relegated to warbands, drumming up images of spikey highway men demanding tolls to cross into the eye of terror.

egh.

Going back to what about I said previously about Renegades being an old idea, Chaos Marines operating in warbands is also something introduced at least as far back as 2nd edition.



While true, it also does mention a ritual that CSM's go through in order to remain sane in that they preserve some memories (the dying moment of a worthy foe or a moment of great triumph) and discard the rest that their mind remains intact over 10,000 years (maybe that's realm of chaos or the 3E book? IIRC it's 2E but I could be wrong), and they do explicitely mention in some instances (dawn of war mentions that the Alpha Legion they are facing are the same marines that fought against the Emperor 10,000 years before) of this. Also, with the distorting effect of the Warp, time between battles may be almost nothing, what may be 100 years outside may only be 1 inside the eye of terror in places. For many the Heresy may only have been a few decades ago.

Exactly the point! So they may be hardened veterans of a few decades ago (ie; Chosen) but they are not the 10k year old uber warriors some make them out to be. Can you imagine the stats on a guy like that? It'd be like having a whole army of Abaddons :eek:


Yes, but at the same time it wasn't the central overriding theme and you could take proper marks on pretty much everything and there was a much wider array of potential units to field. It did the whole combined legion/renegades thing much better than the current book.

Yes, the problem is the current codex doesn't do this, and seems to dump the Legions as much as possible, with many being given little more than a name and a color scheme. The army list doesn't make sense in either measure, and the Renegades are portrayed essentially as Emo-Marines (not intended I'm sure, but that's how it comes across) with Legions looking like an afterthought.

Well I guess this just comes down to a difference of opinion then, as I don't have much of problem with the current book. I can see the problems, but I'm prepared to take them on the chin. For example, maybe marks weren't executed as well as they could have been: while Icon Bearers look cool as models, we all know what happens when Bob drops the stick... Plus, if I were a Death Guard player then yeah, maybe I would be annoyed I can't get legit Plague Terminators. But while they are problems, personally I'd rather just grin and bear it than have the bloated mess that was 3.5. I think 2nd edition codex did it best as well as the current one. Maybe the current book is a little too weighted towards Renegades, but I think it's added some nice, more modern flavour to Chaos, and was probably a necessary knee-jerk to the mess that was 3.5. Hopefully in the next book we'll see a nice blend of the two, Legions and Renegades.

ZeroSum
02-03-2010, 06:05
I'd like to see mark specific daemons back but i doubt that's gonna happen since daemons have their own codex :(

hobodog
02-03-2010, 06:28
I just want the old codex back.
The one before this one.
It was a fun list to use.

samiens
02-03-2010, 20:19
But totally unbalanced because it was too big! A second ed style codex would be sweet though- I still lovingly flick through mine

WinglessVT2
02-03-2010, 20:26
It wasn't unbalanced.
What was unbalanced was the iron warriors sublist.

So to counter that, they took out all the choice, all the flavor, all the the background, and the soul of the army.

Now we get Dick Dastardly, and a single build that works - and which happens to be just as unbalanced and hated as the old iron warriors.

Lord of Worms
02-03-2010, 20:32
Honestly, it was only unbalanced because of one (maybe two) power build in an environment where most army lists were a touch tamer. People complaining about unit champions with strength and attack upgrades are totally out of touch. That`s a total points sink... 15 points? Plus marks, power weapons? You`re looking at an 80 point champion by then with only one wound and WS 4.

I didn`t use it in 3.5, but I started my Thousand Sons in 4th and there was nothing wrong with it. It was challenging to build an actual list because of a wealth of options, but it was actually fun to sit and write it out, and fun to play both with and against. Your basic guys were crappier than loyalists, but you had expensive ways to make them better. That was the trick, balancing your army to make sure you still had enough guys.

People crying about Iron Warriors or "daemon bomb" really need to take a look at the obnoxious lists that are popular today and get some perspective.

NagashTheSorcerer
02-03-2010, 22:26
I loved the 3.5 codex, but the biggest problem with it was that it took the Legions a bit to literally. They are chaos, not space marine army-unto-themselves chapters. The difficulties in mixing different legions and followers of different god was taken to a ridiculous extreme, virtually forcing you to play a specific legion, rather then a mixed chaos army.

Now, with that said, I do feel there are some things from 3.5 that should be brought back, especially some of the special rules and units that allowed you to play specific legions. These could be made into options for the whole chaos army, like cultists would be appropriate meat shields for any servant of the Dark Gods, not just Alpha Legion; or more detailed entries on summoned daemons (I really feel a Codex Chaos Daemons was a tad unnecessary).

A nice balance of the variety of 3.5 and the streamlined playability of 4th would be nice. I really do hope GW can find that balance. Untill then, I guess we just have to deal with what we have.

Lord of Worms
03-03-2010, 00:02
Playing one of the Cult Legions didn`t really give any benefits for the most part. You got free Champion upgrades to Favoured Number squads and that`s basically it. EC could give Dreads and Predators noise weapons, and WE had those overpriced FnP gifts and such.
It was much wiser taking a marked lord, and then taking what you wanted.

Ironhand
03-03-2010, 01:17
Although there was a Chapter Approved article for Cult Terminators, they've never appeared in a Codex. I'd really like to see GW do the legions justice with a full range of units for each.

Lord of Worms
03-03-2010, 01:26
They did appear in the 3.5 codex. Those Chapter Approved and Index Astartes articles are what the previous Chaos and SM codices ended up becoming. They were just phasing it in for feedback and playtesting.

Born Again
03-03-2010, 01:41
Although there was a Chapter Approved article for Cult Terminators, they've never appeared in a Codex. I'd really like to see GW do the legions justice with a full range of units for each.

They also appeared in 2nd edition, though I don't know if I ever saw anyone use them as they were restrictively expensive.

WinglessVT2
03-03-2010, 09:02
In general, those who complain on the second 3rd edition book do so for the sake of complaining - they never actually read it themselves.

owen matthew
03-03-2010, 09:26
The 3rd Ed book back.

borithan
03-03-2010, 09:33
I suppose it makes you a pious Ecclessiarch instead, right?:rolleyes:No, but worship involves some sort of veneration. In 40k you don't need to worship the Chaos Gods to know they exist. Their existence is a fact, and plenty of people that don't worship them know that. Those who don't actively oppose them might worship them (like the Cult troops) or they may just view them as powerful beings (which they are) who can be dealt with to gain certain advantages. Worship would mean you want the, to look kindly (or the equivalent) on you, while someone who didn't worship them would just want the tools that they can provide.



Marine: Ok, representative of the gods, in order for you to inhabit my body safely I have to meditate for a week straight, fast for a month, and have the sorcerors perform a ceremony so you can come in.
Daemon: I also have a list of demands....
Marine: Ok, lets see here... incense, regular blood sacrifices, OK. But only as long as we're clear on something, I won't worship you. I'm an atheist.
Daemon: :wtf: ~leaves~To a worshiper these acts would have some sort of spiritual meaning. To a non-worshiper they are purely the method used to get want you want. It is purely a mechanical thing, or in the case of dealing with daemons, purely a way to make up your end of the bargain. Its basically the same as going up to the till in a shop and handing over money. It is purely a transaction. It may take the form of a ritual, but it has no spiritual meaning to it.



Excessive piety is a mark of pistis, pacts with daemons and apotheosis are religious experiences and are therefore gnosis.But these imply some sort of spiritual meaning to the events. To a non-Chaos worshiping Chaos Marine there isn't. It is purely a transaction made with a powerful being. The payment may take the form of human sacrifices, or ritualised acts of fasting, scarring or whatever, but without the spiritual element, without the veneration, there is no worship.



Under that definition the Word Bearer's don't "worship" the gods either. Through their rituals and devotions they expect to be strengthened and to be successful in their aims.Well, more they ask the God's favour. They don't expect anything. They just hope the superior beings they worship and venerate will give them their favour. If they get the favour, all well and good. If they don't they will suffer some emotional/spiritual loss from it. A non-worshiper, however, will just see it as 1) annoying, possibly fatally so, and 2) demonstrating the fickleness of the powerful beings they tried making a deal with.


Can you imagine the stats on a guy like that? It'd be like having a whole army of AbaddonsWell... a whole army of Chaos Lords would be closer.

Born Again
03-03-2010, 11:43
In general, those who complain on the second 3rd edition book do so for the sake of complaining - they never actually read it themselves.

I'd be tempted to say much the same about the current book.

Sideros Peltarion
03-03-2010, 13:17
I came in at 3.0 so I can't comment on any aspects of 2e Chaos that I would like in the next codex but I would like it to be a combination of various aspects of the last 3.

I would like cult units to go back to elites and for them to be available as troops if you have the right mark on your lord, but for this to apply to Chosen/veterans too maybe.

I like the two tier mark system that the current codex has and I think that should be kept obviously with the option for cult Terminators etc. However the bonuses should both be in the form of marks unlike the silly icon system we have now.

Possessed should go back to 3.5, as should the Dreadnought as that codex had decent rules for them that weren't broken apart from maybe Khorne Possessed with talons with the old rending rules.

I like the idea of improving the stats for veterans, but maybe +1 BS instead of attack so they aren't a purely combat unit as some veterans would be expert shots rather than just awesome mele fighters.

Theme wise I would like it to go back to emphasising the legions, though with renegades like Huron included, with either specific legion rules or just a better way of representing them in the main book, either is fine. I am with many of the people on here who have said that C:SM is better for most renegade chapters.

BloodAndIron
03-03-2010, 15:08
I just want the legions back man. i just want the legions back....

Lord of Worms
03-03-2010, 16:20
But these imply some sort of spiritual meaning to the events. To a non-Chaos worshiping Chaos Marine there isn't. It is purely a transaction made with a powerful being. The payment may take the form of human sacrifices, or ritualised acts of fasting, scarring or whatever, but without the spiritual element, without the veneration, there is no worship.


If one chooses to interpret the metaphysics of 40k to the dumbed down "Gods are like us, just with superpowers", then yes that would be so. If you choose to interpret it that way then a worshipper is a brainwashed fool, and an atheistic daemonologist is a shrewd businessman.

In that regard, itdoes come down to opinion...I just happen to think that one option has a basis in relation to historical mysticism whereas the "businessman" approach is what is killing modern anthropology, and is probably not the intent of how the background is portrayed.

MistaGav
03-03-2010, 16:27
I would like to see cultists. It would be a very basic statline like IG and with very simple weapons and maybe the odd special rule but it would be a nice little fluffy addition to see these guys as the primary fighters in a chaos force and Chaos Marines are a bit like the hammer in the troops section...a bit like what we see in DOW 1+2

samiens
03-03-2010, 17:41
In general, those who complain on the second 3rd edition book do so for the sake of complaining - they never actually read it themselves.

And your evidence for this is?

I can only speak for myself but I owned (indeed still do) and played with and against armies from said codex- in fact I've played with every Chaos codex released (though sadly not the realm of chaos books)- I complain because game balance is important to me. The fact that there is one muchly overrated build in the current codex is nothing compared to the ridiculous daemon bomb and iron warrior armies- not to mention the untargettable daemon prince of slaanesh.

2nd ed had the most characterful codex imo, and going that way would please me greatly

Lord of Worms
03-03-2010, 19:19
And your evidence for this is?

I can only speak for myself but I owned (indeed still do) and played with and against armies from said codex- in fact I've played with every Chaos codex released (though sadly not the realm of chaos books)- I complain because game balance is important to me. The fact that there is one muchly overrated build in the current codex is nothing compared to the ridiculous daemon bomb and iron warrior armies- not to mention the untargettable daemon prince of slaanesh.

2nd ed had the most characterful codex imo, and going that way would please me greatly

In a book with almost infinite viable builds you pick out two abusive ones, that weren`t as bad as people seem to think. Versus the one, maybe two viable builds with the current dex that are universally obnoxious irrespective of power. It really is no contest. If you want an untargetable Slaanesh DP you`re paying 60 points to ensure siren plus whatever bling for him, you`re looking at a 350 point model...that isn`t really that good. People could choose not to powergame with the old one, and the abuse could have been easily fixed in an FAQ. In the current list you can either powergame and build a mildly powerful, obnoxious-as-hell, boring list or you can lose by default.
People all over the place don`t even play CSM anymore because of this garbage. I know I don`t. I have a small traitor guard army that`s WIP, and I mostly play EPIC anyway....where Chaos armies make sense.

Slyck
03-03-2010, 19:22
- DON'T bring back Legions with their own special rules. But do improve the marking/icon system to better be able to represent legions.

- New/rewritten psychic powers so that chaos sorcerers are once again a thing to be feared.

- Some form of psychic defense a-la hoods, runes, shadows ... whatever.

- a 5-10 point discount for dreads because of crazed, but leave in the unreliability.

- increase the cost of spawn by 10 points but add in FNP and/or rending.

Revelations
03-03-2010, 19:24
The fact that there is one muchly overrated build in the current codex is nothing compared to the ridiculous daemon bomb and iron warrior armies- not to mention the untargettable daemon prince of slaanesh.
That was really it. When people complain about how broken it was, they were talking about 2 biulds.

The first, being Iron Warriors. And looking at the game now, IG is laughing at what Iron Warriors could do then. The fact that people still bemoan about that biuld astounds me.

The second, being the Daemon bomb(which was the untargettable Slannesh Prince you mentioned). The Daemon army is based around this function. The difference being is that nothing starts on the table and they can't assault out of Deepstrike, although they are much stronger. Kind of confuses me a little here.

Now we look at the current issue; Lash Prince Oblit Spam. Hmm... the one powerful Chaos biuld being b*tched about... no suprise.

So now we understand why people are upset. It's unfair if Chaos has artillery, but not other armies. It's unfair if Chaos can use 3 Basilisks, but not IG. It's unfair if Chaos can Deepstrike their army, but not Daemons. It's unfair if Chaos can assault out of Deepstrike, but not Marines. It's unfair if Chaos has differences between it's Legions, but not Marines. It's not OK for Chaos to Mix Marks, but Eldar love mixing Aspects. It's unfair that Chaos gets any combination of these effects/rules, but fair that they get no new rules in a Codex update. But it's fair that Chaos pays a high cost for something that doesn't work 100% of the time. Oh yah, and we have great internal balance and our Codex was designed with 5th in mind...:rolleyes:

I've changed my mind, I'm hoping that just once a Chaos Codex get's released and the community doesn't start a cheese-wine thread about it for all the 'bias' reasons.

Dr.Clock
03-03-2010, 19:50
As a thought...

It'd be great if they could do three codecies: Chaos Space Marines, WE/DG, and EC/TH.

Simply put, I think expecting BOTH ready access to cult troops AND totally viable and unbroken 'sub-lists' of First Founding traitors somehow 'accessed' by initial unit selections is expecting an impossibility.

The sheer number of possibilities such a system creates will either not fit in the size book a codex is usually meant to be or will be hopelessly inadequate either for gaming or fluff purposes.

I think, for a start, that broadening the 'auxilliaries' sections of the codex would allow for the Undivided legions to have a better representation. The idea of moving units around the FOC is okay, but really shouldn't IMO be taken too far, especially if you can also start introducing a second 'tier' of mark for elite units.

Simply put, I think committing to the three-way split would allow everyone to get what they want in the long run.

The downside of this is that someone is going to have to wait a couple more years to see the 'list they've always wanted'.

Still, a rock solid CSM codex that actually stops trying to do both in one codex could serve to hold players over until the books are redone.

I'd start by immediately doing a DG/WE codex. Have the lists not interact in any way with the 'other' CSMs. If you want a mono-god list: you've got it.

In fact, something along the lines of FWs work would be amazing... represent the type of 'meatshields' that would be found alongside the 10k-year old veterans... Plague Spawn, Gas Tanks, Berzerker Engines, ThunderNaught Riders... you name it...

With a pretty solid Daemons and CSM range already at their disposal, A couple add-on packs a la Blood Angels and a couple more for elite or HS add-ons (plague Predator????) would be really nice to see.

Then, the EC/1kS could be redone the next year with the rest of the Legions and renegades showing up to kick off 6th ed.

In an ideal world...

Cheers,

The Good Doctor.

Megad00mer
03-03-2010, 19:52
If I wrote the next CSM Codex:

Cult Units (Khorne Berserkers, Plague Marines, Noise Marines and Thousand Sons) made Elite choices again. A Chaos Lord with the appropriate mark makes the corresponding unit a Troop. (Like it used to be)

Include an option in the unit entry for each Cult unit to replace Power armor with Terminator armor. Also bring back the classic wargear options like Axes of Khorne, Plague Swords etc. etc.

Marks of Chaos to give the same bonuses they do now, except they are now taken as +X pts/model instead of that dumb icon. The icons will still be useful on your models for demon summoning.

Demon Weapons to change. No more extra d6 attacks and auto wounds for your Lord on a 1 to hit. Demon Weapons are power weapons with the following extra rules based upon which is taken. A lord must have the appropriate mark to take the corresponding weapon.

Undivided Weapon – May reroll hits in Assault
Nurgle Weapon – Poisoned Attacks (2+)
Khorne Weapon - +d6 Attacks in each assault phase.
Slaanesh Weapon – Any enemy model directing it’s attacks towards the bearer of this weapon halves it’s WS (rounding up) A to wound roll of a 6 causes Instant Death.
Tzeentch Weapon – May be fired in the Shooting Phase with the following profile. 18” Str 4 AP 3 Assault 6

A Lord with a Demon Weapon must pass a Ld test at the end of any assault phase in which he causes at least 1 unsaved wound to an enemy. If this test is failed he cannot attack in the following assault phase as he wrestles to regain control of the weapon.

Lesser and Greater Demons can take Marks of Chaos at +X pts/model. Called appropriate names. Undivided will be Furies. (not jump infantry)

Chaos Dreadnought’s “Crazed Table” changes: Roll a d6 at the beginning of the Chaos Player’s movement phase for each unengaged Drednought.

1-Blood Rage: Dreadnought may not fire. Moves as fast as possible towards the closest visible enemy model. Must run towards this model in the shooting phase and gains Fleet. Must charge this model is possible.

2-5: Dreadnought acts normally

6-Fire Frenzy: The Drednought must fire each weapon TWICE at the closest visible enemy model.

Vehicles can be marked once again:
Khorne: Destroyer – Vehicle causes d6 Str 6 Ap 4 hits to each unit that it tank shocks. (Yes this works on vehicles) Dreadnoughts gain an extra d6 attacks on the charge and will Blood Rage on a 1 or 2.
Nurgle: Pestilent Cloud – Vehicle has a 4+ Cover save against shooting attacks. Enemy models in contact with the vehicle at the end of any assault phase must take a Toughness test or suffer a wound. Armor saves taken as normal.
Slaanesh: Blasphemous Amps – Any enemy unit within 12” of the vehicle are at -1 Ld. This effect stacks with multiple Amps.
Tzeencth: Warpfire – The tank may fire a single Str 5 AP 3 Template. The Template may originate from any point on the vehicle’s hull. This may be fired in addition to any other weapons the vehicle may fire, and may fire if the vehicle is shaken or stunned.
Demonic Possession: becomes the Undivided vehicle upgrade. Vehicle cannot be shaken or stunned.

An Independent Character with a Mark of Chaos can never join a unit with a different Mark. Undivided Lords can join whoever they please.

A Special Character that represents each Undivided Legion (Night Lords, Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors, Word Bearers) and grants army wide special rules to help players makes a themed army based upon their Legion of Choice. Abbaddon remains the Black Legion special Character.

DuskRaider
03-03-2010, 20:32
It's unfair if Chaos has artillery, but not other armies. It's unfair if Chaos can use 3 Basilisks, but not IG. It's unfair if Chaos can Deepstrike their army, but not Daemons. It's unfair if Chaos can assault out of Deepstrike, but not Marines. It's unfair if Chaos has differences between it's Legions, but not Marines. It's not OK for Chaos to Mix Marks, but Eldar love mixing Aspects. It's unfair that Chaos gets any combination of these effects/rules, but fair that they get no new rules in a Codex update. But it's fair that Chaos pays a high cost for something that doesn't work 100% of the time. Oh yah, and we have great internal balance and our Codex was designed with 5th in mind...:rolleyes:

Revelations, you've officially become my new Warseer hero :D

The Iron Warriors build really wasn't all that bad, the only difference between what IW got then and what EVERY Chaos army gets now is Basilisks. Big deal, IG can field what? 9 of them if they want? Now every Chaos player can cheese it up using Obliterator and / or Vindicator spam.

Daemon Bomb is nothing compared to some of the beardy lists the same people complaining about not only endorse but field regularly. I think it's all a factor of "it's not cheese if I play it".

Mannimarco
03-03-2010, 20:39
lot of good stuff in here, as cheesy as some might claim 3.5 to have been theres cheesier builds from todays books that are socially accepted

agreeing with the "4 heavy support for the IW list is cheesy, effectively 9 for the IG list is fine"

on a side not i was under the impression 4 basilisks was illegal (IIRC they were 0-1 were they not?)

DuskRaider
03-03-2010, 20:46
From what I remember (I don't have 3.5 near me), IW could only take 0-1 Basilisk and 0-1 Vindicator. Hardly game breaking, IMO.

thedigitalflip
03-03-2010, 20:56
Is it still worth it to invest in a CSM army with the new codex? I like all the fluff they have and i'd like to play as them, any opinions? thanks! :D

DuskRaider
03-03-2010, 21:01
It's alright. As far as options and fluff-wise, I'd say no. You can make a force that can sort of represent a Legion, but with the Icons it's a shell of their former glory. A lot of balance issues plague the book, and it comes down to "this unit is a no-brainer, this unit is useless".

Project2501
03-03-2010, 21:01
Is it still worth it to invest in a CSM army with the new codex? I like all the fluff they have and i'd like to play as them, any opinions? thanks! :D


Buy the 3.5 edition codex, and make the proper CSM of your dreams.

BaloOrk
03-03-2010, 21:18
From what I remember (I don't have 3.5 near me), IW could only take 0-1 Basilisk and 0-1 Vindicator. Hardly game breaking, IMO.

At the time, there was quite some bitching bout it, now however, maybe the community is ready for some real firepower.... :evilgrin::cheese::angel:

I hope for (much)more deamon engines, lost and the damned, Legion specific special rules...

Oh, and an assault variant of the defiler, with short range weapons instead of a battlecannon.
And some defence against psycic powers, especially to the Khorne troops.

I can go on, but wisely choose not too... :cool:

thedigitalflip
03-03-2010, 21:30
Buy the 3.5 edition codex, and make the proper CSM of your dreams.

Do most players let you do this? I'm sure it would make a huge difference in game play.

Lord of Worms
03-03-2010, 21:45
Do most players let you do this? I'm sure it would make a huge difference in game play.

It would probably be just as, or less "competitive", but it would actually be fun.

Mannimarco
03-03-2010, 21:52
you'ld be lucky to find sombody who lets you play the horribly unbalanced cheesy broken mess written by a IW fanboy that was the 3.5 dex, dont try to use older editions for your army. Id reccomend the current (and therfore no complaining allowed) that let you take thing like stormshield termys and biker nobz.

using a previous edition dex leads us down a bad road, we can use 3.5 to better represent our army in a similar way to nid players can use their old dex to represent theres

on a serious note playing 3.5 wouldnt make a massive difference to the game, truth be told what we need to do is find people cool with forgeworld stuff, the CSM dex may suck at representing your legion and other assorted chaosy goodness but this is easily fixed with the addition of some forgeworld stiff (which isnt anywhere near as broken as people like to bitch about)

want that death guard legion army but isnt covered by the dex? take necrosius and a couple of blight drones with your plague marines, world eaters? easily covered with zhufor and a couple of blood slaughterers, want a real alpha legion army? try arkos the faithless and his infiltrating chosen (30 chosen with meltaguns and powerfist champs are scary)

granted you dont get the word bearers/1k sons/EC/IW but theres a fiar amout of stuff out there for chaos that add to a pretty bland codex

Askari
03-03-2010, 21:54
It's far less competitive, everything costs more, and your basic CSM are worse seeing as they don't have Bolter, Bolt Pistol AND CCW or Grenades. You'd have to go super-competitive with 3.5 to beat even a moderate 4.0 list.

The only real advantage, gamewise, 3.5 had was far more powerful HQs and decently powerful Champions.

Project2501
03-03-2010, 22:20
Do most players let you do this? I'm sure it would make a huge difference in game play.


For fun, yes, you can use it. Also, there is a great wealth of information and options in it. Actual veteran skills, proper amory, legions, the list goes on.

Competitively, it will still do just fine in 5.0 despite others' jaded memories of certain builds from the past. Also you will have just as hard of a time tryin to use forgeworld stuff (are the rules for their stuff allowed to begin with in your area? Do you have the extra CHUNK of change to buy forgewolrd stuff? Do you agree with havin to buy forgeworld stuff to begin with to make the army you want?) as the old codex.

Lord of Worms
03-03-2010, 22:20
on a serious note playing 3.5 wouldnt make a massive difference to the game, truth be told what we need to do is find people cool with forgeworld stuff

People actually complain about using Forgeworld stuff ?:eek:

thedigitalflip
03-03-2010, 22:41
For fun, yes, you can use it. Also, there is a great wealth of information and options in it. Actual veteran skills, proper amory, legions, the list goes on.

Competitively, it will still do just fine in 5.0 despite others' jaded memories of certain builds from the past. Also you will have just as hard of a time tryin to use forgeworld stuff (are the rules for their stuff allowed to begin with in your area? Do you have the extra CHUNK of change to buy forgewolrd stuff? Do you agree with havin to buy forgeworld stuff to begin with to make the army you want?) as the old codex.

I'm not sure about the rules, but i don't really have the cash to dish out on FW stuff, and i'm alright with converting my own stuff to make the army i want. I was wanting to start a Death Guard army or 1k sons, but i'm hearing from a lot of people that the new Codex has issues.

Project2501
03-03-2010, 22:48
I would suggest reading the current codex first, to see if it suits your desires.

Also, I forgot to ask, did you intend to play competitivly in actual official touranments or competitivly in your local area. The 3.5 dex/builds won't be legal in official tournaments.

thedigitalflip
04-03-2010, 01:17
Yeah, i'm going to have to buy it and see what's up.

I'm just going to play locally, at least for now, i haven't played many games so i want to build and army i really enjoy using before thinking of anything else, which is why i wanted to know if this new edition of the chaos codex is any good.

Mannimarco
04-03-2010, 01:43
then yes, its not that new and is beginning to show its age however is still capable of holding its own in todays games

Project2501
04-03-2010, 03:56
If you haven't had the pleasure of using the 3.5 codex, then I'm afraid I'm going to have to continue to go back on my original suggestion and reiterate that you try the current codex first (give it a read, build a few lists and proxy some battles).

Once you get a gander at the 3.5 codex, you'll be ruined for trying to give the current one a go.

borithan
04-03-2010, 07:37
If you choose to interpret it that way then a worshipper is a brainwashed fool, and an atheistic daemonologist is a shrewd businessman.Well, they are not atheists. They believe that the God's exist. But anyway, talking about the attitude of the individual doesn't make any judgement about who is right. It is just saying that what the "nonbeliever" does is not worship.



In that regard, itdoes come down to opinion...I just happen to think that one option has a basis in relation to historical mysticism whereas the "businessman" approach is what is killing modern anthropology, and is probably not the intent of how the background is portrayed.Eh? Not sure I understand what you are trying to say.

adreal
04-03-2010, 08:54
Okay, I only got to page 3.....Now I'm saying my piece

Daemon Princes, they should be armies in thier own right, they are immortal champion's of the Gods. They really shouldn't have table top rules, but if they do (and they will due to having models) they shouldn't cost less then 500 points, but damn it, they should be worth it.

Chaos Lords, they should be better then Chapter Master's, period, they should be a hint back to her hammer, and they should beable to be tied to the legion's they lead, if the player wants it that way. So yes a warod bearer's lord should be able to inspire his troops (kinda like the chaplain ability, but with a 6" or 12" bubble) a Emperor's Children lord should be a drugged up hiedinist (sp??) who doesn't worry if you hit him, or even that you come close to killing him, he would enjoy it, becoming even more dangerous in close combat.

Chaos Sorcerer's should be as good as farseers (who chould be better), with more psychic options, and defense (even like runes of witnessing if we can't have psychic hoods)

Possessed, they are a combination of a daemon and a marine, so they should be deadly in close combat, and hard to kill at range, also the mark they have determines what daemonic gifts they have

Chosen, they should be the veteren's of the long war, damn near untouchable to anything but the greatest hero's of the imperium, if oyu put down a unit of chosen you opponent should be worried (and not just because 5 melta guns are clsoe to his deployment zone)

Terminators should be an option for chosen and for cult marines

Dreadnoughts, I like them as they are, but I would liek them better if they could be legionafied, if blood angels can get a libarian dread, why can't thousand sons?

Basic CSM, they can stay as is, just without icon's (marks needed)

Add another basic troop type, legionares, slightly better then basic CSM (start at 20 points) with the option of then becoming cult troops who improve on the already buffed up stat line

Chaos bikers, giving them skilled rider and the option for marks (shrugs) I would say drop them completly in foavour of marines riding daemonic beasts (yes a unit of 9 disc riders of tzeentch) just to break the 'sameness' between CSM and SM

raptors, giving them back hit and run, upping thier weapon skill and maybe something liek the banshee mask would make them pretty awesome, maybe not markable though (they are a seperate cult after all)

Spawn, give them an armour save (is 5+ to much to ask) and make them markable, oh and loose slow and purposeful, just give them rage and fleet (so dropping beasts)

Obliterators, why don't they have heavy flamers? Maybe cap them becasue they are pretty spammed as is, they are supposed to be rare after all

Havocs, they should be able to legion up (yes, world eaters used to have havocs) with apropriate weapon options, maybe a vet skill (ie tank hunters) but a special rule like what tank busters have (glory hogs)to balance that out

Predators, should start off as a basic chasis (13, 11, 10) with no weapons, but be very customisable, give it a battle cannon and multi melta sponsons if you want, or a daemon maw (giving it dreadnought close combat weapon attacks) and over charged engines, would could also tie in the vindicator into this

Daemon engines, start with a basic walker (ala defiler with no weapons) and again, open up the options, make them crazy customisable

Land Raiders, we should have the basic heavy bolter las pattern (but all raiders should have the same transport capacity) but we should be able to tweek it slightly to fit into legions (a noise raider, or a seige raider with maybe two multi meltas on it or something)

Lesser Daemons..........well their are four radicly different daemon options in another codex, if only they could be used......

Greater Daemons........again, I can seem to recall four different types all with different strengths and weaknesses.....just wish they could be used

Daemonic Beasts, maybe lesser ones as mounts for marines (to replace bikers) and greater ones as mounts for characters

lesser beasts
-beast of nurgle
-steed of slaanesh
-flesh hound of khorne
-disc of tzeentch

greater beasts
-palanquin of nurgle
-fiends of slaanesh
-juggernoughts of khorne
-screamers of tzeentch


Thier would be fair and balanced points costs for all of this, but CSM, while outnumbered most of the time, would be able to compete because of tier skills.

Pink Horror
04-03-2010, 09:18
I want a lot more rules that let me move my enemy's miniatures around. That should be Chaos's specialty. Every champion in the army should be able to do that!

Askari
04-03-2010, 09:42
...snip...


You pretty much just described my own vision of Chaos I've written, with the exception of the super-moddable Predators, which I'm going to steal and put in.

Prokrustes
04-03-2010, 10:44
Without reading each and every post, but at least most in this thread, here are my 2cents:
1) Legion rules and full support for every Legion
2) More of the cool fluff as in 3.5 instead of the lame stuff we have in the current codex
3) Less SM stuff more daemon, unholy, freaky stuff. So that we arent simply spiky marines.
4) Good rules for the 1k sons (I think GW hates them..)
5) MUCH more powerful chaos sorcerors and a difference in the mechanics between sorcery and psyker powers (As far as I understand psyker-sorcerors are very rare outside the 1ksons). Oh and alot more sorcerous/psyker powers...
6) Better implementation of Slaanesh (Remove NM and make his cult troops different and move away from the boobification of all his models) (I know this wont happen but you can still wish...)

Pink Horror
04-03-2010, 11:00
6) Better implementation of Slaanesh (Remove NM and make his cult troops different and move away from the boobification of all his models) (I know this wont happen but you can still wish...)

You want to move away from boobification? :eek:

Prokrustes
04-03-2010, 11:05
You want to move away from boobification? :eek:

Ermh...Well...Id like to see something else except for LUST from the Prince of Sins and decadence... How about... Decadence? Envy, Gluttony, Sloth, Wrath, Hubris/Pride,etc.? I mean keep the boobs but make him darker and not only all sex related...

muskrat
04-03-2010, 12:07
My only wish is for my Alpha Legion to be as useful as they were in 3rd edition. By that I mean my cultists that I lovingly built and converted, then was told "oh sorry, store em." I want them to be useful again.

Ok, that's a lie. It's not my only wish. Let us play traitors right. Small groups of hard as nails marines, each a match for the other troops squads out there, with human meat shields for the right legions and human cultist/saboteurs for the right legions. Like the Alpha Legion. That means also bring back veteran skills.

An elites choice for cultists- sort of like the kasrkin of cultists.

It's kind of orky, but "repossessed" Imperial tech wouldn't be too far off the mark. The vindicator was a start, but honestly, I know at least my warband would loot the hell out of any whirlwind chunks laying around after a battle. A little welding here, little daemonic possession there, badda bing badda boom. Let the loyalist's keep their ass cannons if you must.

Dark Primus
04-03-2010, 12:28
DP's serving the different Chaos god should have different stats that reflect them best.
The best CC unit should be Khorne DP, the current one is lacking terrible.

Slaanesh DP should be faster and more agile.

Nurgle DP big and powerful kan take a huge load of fire and laugh it off.

Tzeentch DP basically a walking weapons battery with lot more devastating options to choose from and not just simple shooting abilities either but more nasty psychic abilities overall.

They should all have access to varierty of Daemon weapons.

Sideros Peltarion
04-03-2010, 12:40
DP's serving the different Chaos god should have different stats that reflect them best.
The best CC unit should be Khorne DP, the current one is lacking terrible.

Slaanesh DP should be faster and more agile.

Nurgle DP big and powerful kan take a huge load of fire and laugh it off.

Tzeentch DP basically a walking weapons battery with lot more devastating options to choose from and not just simple shooting abilities either but more nasty psychic abilities overall.

They should all have access to varierty of Daemon weapons.

Or just go back to a system like 3.5 where it was a progressive system so you could make your lord/prince however strong you wanted

DuskRaider
04-03-2010, 16:01
Agreed. I loved the armory in 3.5, I could make a Lord / Prince exactly how I wanted. Granted, you'd run into a lot of WAAC players who used the same build as one another, but you didn't NEED to do that. And having a Daemon Prince who would cost a ton and could take down an entire army was just plain awesome, lol.

borithan
04-03-2010, 16:37
Ermh...Well...Id like to see something else except for LUST from the Prince of Sins and decadence... How about... Decadence? Envy,Envy I think is more of a Tzeentchian thing.



Gluttony, Sloth, Wrath,Wrath is more Khorne. And sloth isn't really seeking sensation anywhere...



I mean keep the boobs but make him darker and not only all sex related...He is already less sex related than he used to be...

Cuda
04-03-2010, 19:12
Chaos Lords that benefit the army. Warp Amps, Sonic Dreads, Techmarines, Degenerate humans with explosive collars, Chaos Spawn that work...Oh! and give the Chosen back their bikes for "crying-out-load!!!"

Cuda...

Dark Primus
04-03-2010, 20:15
A Lord with a Demon Weapon must pass a Ld test at the end of any assault phase in which he causes at least 1 unsaved wound to an enemy. If this test is failed he cannot attack in the following assault phase as he wrestles to regain control of the weapon.


Given the fact there are several nasty units out there that can lower your Ld value I am not even going to bother using any weapon where I must take a leadership test.

And when it comes to Daemon Weapons I rather see huge varierty of them instead of just one for each mark.

And I'm also start to think drawbacks is getting old and pointless when there are armies that can field weapons that are just as devastating and even more so and has no drawbacks to them at all.

Dark Primus
04-03-2010, 20:34
Or just go back to a system like 3.5 where it was a progressive system so you could make your lord/prince however strong you wanted

I prefer to look forward and not backwards. :) The 3.5 is gone and history and I prefer it stays that way. I however want the 5th book to be better then 3.5 but still balanced.

williamhm
04-03-2010, 23:54
I'd say a main book detailing chaos undivided, and renegades. Then Death Guard, Emperor's Children Iron Warriors, and Alpha Legion at least should each get their own codex. If Space wolves, Blood Angels, and other space marine chapters get their own dexes then I see no reason why some chaos marine chapters should not get their own codexes detailing how they are different than chaos undivided. There should be some ability to cross use the various dexes, but special rules for each of the traitor legions.

I'd also say Lost and the Dam could be folded into the Alpha Legion codex as Alpha legion is said to forment lots of rebelions, and chaos cults.

Lord of Worms
05-03-2010, 01:07
I'd say a main book detailing chaos undivided, and renegades. Then Death Guard, Emperor's Children Iron Warriors, and Alpha Legion at least should each get their own codex. If Space wolves, Blood Angels, and other space marine chapters get their own dexes then I see no reason why some chaos marine chapters should not get their own codexes detailing how they are different than chaos undivided. There should be some ability to cross use the various dexes, but special rules for each of the traitor legions.

I'd also say Lost and the Dam could be folded into the Alpha Legion codex as Alpha legion is said to forment lots of rebelions, and chaos cults.

Ideally, I think everybody would like that, but by the time GW dragged out these releases (remember, you can`t launch the codex without whiz-bang! new models, apparently) the codices would be spanning at leas 2 editions and wildly out of wack with each other.
Besides, I think seperate codices for all the loyalist chapters are entirely pointless. They could fit it all in one codex if they truly wanted to. How different are DA from standard codex chapters? A few characters? Terminators painted differently? Or having one codex, with mini-dexes like they used to. That was a good freaking idea.
I just want a good codex, that is fun to use and lets people represent legions properly.

williamhm
05-03-2010, 01:34
Ideally, I think everybody would like that, but by the time GW dragged out these releases (remember, you can`t launch the codex without whiz-bang! new models, apparently) the codices would be spanning at leas 2 editions and wildly out of wack with each other.
Besides, I think seperate codices for all the loyalist chapters are entirely pointless. They could fit it all in one codex if they truly wanted to. How different are DA from standard codex chapters? A few characters? Terminators painted differently? Or having one codex, with mini-dexes like they used to. That was a good freaking idea.
I just want a good codex, that is fun to use and lets people represent legions properly.

True I just want some of the iconic chaos legions to truly look and feel different from each other. Maybe if they did it in 3 books Chaos undivided+renegades in one, then Legion of the dammed+alpha legion+human cultists and mutants. Then a seperate book like the old chapter approved book with specific rules and characters for the other iconic chaos cults. Emperors children, night lords, Iron Warriors, Death Guard, word bearers and world eaters. My next army is going to be Dark Eldar but if they did the codexes like that for chaos id get each one of them.

adreal
05-03-2010, 03:24
DP's serving the different Chaos god should have different stats that reflect them best.
The best CC unit should be Khorne DP, the current one is lacking terrible.

Slaanesh DP should be faster and more agile.

Nurgle DP big and powerful kan take a huge load of fire and laugh it off.

Tzeentch DP basically a walking weapons battery with lot more devastating options to choose from and not just simple shooting abilities either but more nasty psychic abilities overall.

They should all have access to varierty of Daemon weapons.

Just so you know, a keeper of secrets is better in close combat then a bloodthirster ;)


You pretty much just described my own vision of Chaos I've written, with the exception of the super-moddable Predators, which I'm going to steal and put in.


Your welcome to it:)

big squig
05-03-2010, 03:59
I want a chaos army that can do what we have now, legion, daemons, in any mix or pure. Players should have a choice.

Dark Primus
05-03-2010, 23:22
Just so you know, a keeper of secrets is better in close combat then a bloodthirster ;)


Not that I understand the point of your post when I am talking about the Deamon Prince, not Greater Daemons. :P


But in the end it would depend what you fight against. Against certain nid units then Keeper of Secrets could be essential.
One attack more don't make that much difference.

adreal
06-03-2010, 03:09
Not that I understand the point of your post when I am talking about the Deamon Prince, not Greater Daemons. :P


But in the end it would depend what you fight against. Against certain nid units then Keeper of Secrets could be essential.
One attack more don't make that much difference.


You say that a khornite daemon prince should be the best in close combat

some people also think a bloodthirster is the best in close combat

where as slaanesh greater daemons (and in this codex) daemon princes are better in close combat

thats all, but I do agree, khornite princes do need to better in close combat then they are right now

Lord of Worms
06-03-2010, 03:15
You say that a khornite daemon prince should be the best in close combat

some people also think a bloodthirster is the best in close combat

where as slaanesh greater daemons (and in this codex) daemon princes are better in close combat

thats all, but I do agree, khornite princes do need to better in close combat then they are right now

This is a problem that is facing the whole game of 40k.
Unit X should be better! Army X should be better! Before you know it, the Blood Angels get their own Daemon Prince ala Sanguinor (this is the stupidest thing Ive ever heard of:wtf: ), and Mephiston gets better stats than the current DP. That`s retarded. Now, when CSM comes along and out Lords have WS9 or whatever, you`re going to see BA players crying about how their guys are "supposed to be the best":rolleyes:

This whole game needs to be re-booted and cut-down to size. I don`t want Khorne Daemon-Prince models riding MkII Juggernaughts with wings. :wtf:

Juggalo
06-03-2010, 03:25
Here's my top 10 for the Chaos codex.

1. I want it to be not written by Matt Ward.
2-7. See #1
8. I want it to have some sort of cultists/zombies/mutants whatever.
9. I want it to actually be about the Chaos Legions, and not random renegade schmucks.
10. I want animosity back between the Chaos Gods. Enough skipping rope while holding hands and singing tralala.

Project2501
06-03-2010, 03:29
Here's my top 10 for the Chaos codex.

1. I want it to be not written by Matt Ward.
2-7. See #1
8. I want it to have some sort of cultists/zombies/mutants whatever.
9. I want it to actually be about the Chaos Legions, and not random renegade schmucks.
10. I want animosity back between the Chaos Gods. Enough skipping rope while holding hands and singing tralala.


I would like GW to essentially say "our bad" and reprint the 3.5 dex with minimal updating. Failing that, I'd go with what you've got as it's close enough.

big squig
06-03-2010, 05:08
Ok...my list of changes

-Drop the cult marines
-Change icons to just teleporter homers. No more "mark" icons.
-Any unit other than oblits may be given marks for xpts per model. Change the marks to the following:

-Mark of Khorne: +1 attack. For xpts, any non-daemon model with a mark of khorne may be upgraded to a world eater. World eaters have +1WS and furious charge.

-Mark of Nurgle: +1 toughness. For xpts, any non-daemon model with a mark of nurgle may be upgraded to a death guard. Death guard have feel no pain and defensive grenades.

-Mark of Slaanesh: +1 initiative and fearless. For xpts, any non-daemon model with a mark of slaanesh may be upgraded to an emperor's children. Emperor's Children may replace their weapons with sonic blasters for free. One emperor's children per unit may replace their weapons with a blast master for free. Emperor's children chaos lords and aspiring champions may be given doom sirens for xpts each.

-Mark of Tzeentch: 5+ invulnerable save (or +1 to an existing save). For xpts, any non-daemon model with a mark of tzeentch may be upgraded to a thousand son. Thousand sons have slow and purposeful and replace their weapons with inferno bolters. Thousand son terminators have slow and purposeful and replace their weapons with twin-linked inferno bolters and power weapons. Thousand sons aspiring champion and chaos lords get one psychic power and a force weapon for free.

-Add daemons back in as a troop choice. Drop summoning. Daemons just deep strike. A daemon pack consist of 10-20 lesser daemons, 0-5 daemonic beasts, 0-3 daemonic monsters, and up to 1 daemonic herald. The whole unit may be given marks or wings for xpts per model. The unit may be given a icon. Daemons with marks also get the following bonuses:

-Daemons with the mark of khorne receive power weapons and furious charge.

-Daemons with the mark of nurgle receive feel no pain and poison attacks.

-Daemons with the mark of slaanesh receive fleet and rending.

-Daemon with the mark of tzeentch receive warpfire.

-Move greater daemons back to HQ. Drop possession. Greater daemons just deep strike. Let them take marks or wings. Greater daemons with marks also get the following bonuses:

-A greater daemon with the mark of khorne receives a 3+ armor save, wings and furious charge as well.

-A greater daemon with the mark of nurgle receives a feel no pain, wind of chaos, and initiative 1 as well.

-A greater daemon with the mark of slaanesh receives a +2 attacks, gift of chaos, and initiative 10 as well.

-A greater daemon with the mark of tzeentch receives wings and every psychic power as well.

-Let the defiler upgrade to a soul grinder.
-Kill the chaos daemon book.

This allows the current chaos armies to still be playable, a full damon army to still be playable, and legion armies to still be playable with a codex that is as simple and streamlined as the current one.

MegaPope
06-03-2010, 07:24
10. I want animosity back between the Chaos Gods. Enough skipping rope while holding hands and singing tralala

Please don't wish too hard for this one. The idea of Chaos Marine venerating different powers while working together has been around since the 2ed Codex. It's the DAEMONS that should have some kind of restriction. Even then, you could field them in the same army - it's just that nasty things could happen if two Daemon units of opposing powers got within 12" of each other.

Stop mooting ideas of piling restrictions onto Chaos...it was bad enough when the last IG codex felt like a straitjacket.

Dark Primus
06-03-2010, 09:55
Please don't wish too hard for this one. The idea of Chaos Marine venerating different powers while working together has been around since the 2ed Codex. It's the DAEMONS that should have some kind of restriction. Even then, you could field them in the same army - it's just that nasty things could happen if two Daemon units of opposing powers got within 12" of each other.

Stop mooting ideas of piling restrictions onto Chaos...it was bad enough when the last IG codex felt like a straitjacket.


I don't like restrictions onto Chaos at all. The 3rd codex had plenty of it, and in my opinion its an obselet rule, the current CSM codex barely has any of it and I want to keep it that way in the future.

And the current CD codex is rather good, though still little weak.

Rhamiel
06-03-2010, 11:31
i think (i'm a bit biased to IW here) but the heavy support section is too full! for Iron Warriors, they cannont field a viable army for the Iron Warrior backround/theme.

For example, Iron Warriors use Traitor Guard (and their tanks) heavily. Basilks, Large waves on men. Leman Russes etc. Let us use Traitor Guard. (as mentioned) Give us a HQ option of a traitor guard commander, and have a troop choice that can only be taken with the traitor guard commander (Infatnry Platoon obviously), no special stuff, but also maybe the use of guard tanks.

Also maybe (might get shot for this) something like chapter tactics. But legion tactics. So have for example:
Abbddon (makes them more Black Legion)
Kharn (makes them more World Eaters)
Lucius (makes them more Emperors Children)
Typhus (makes them more Death Guard)
and so on having some thing for all the legions (although that might be a few too many characters)

and then with this, you could have the basic stat stuff out there, being the renegades. but this may cause annoyance if you don't want to field the special character of your legion. so may need tweaking :/. i don't know
my only suggestion is to be able to have a chaos lord, with upgrades to make them commander of that legion eg. the Warsmith upgrade, or the Plague Lord upgrade.

just some ideas. but definatly Deamonic Engines, it's what chaos is all about. fusion of the warp and the known universe! to detroy the Imperium with.

but this is all gonna be a while away. considering we only got a codex what was it 2/3 years ago! :(

Rhamiel

adreal
06-03-2010, 11:38
DO NOT MAKE SPECIAL CHARACTERS THE ONLY WAY TO GET LEGIONS, IT'S A BAD IDEA!!!!

Sorry for the caps, but I wanted to get my point across

Mannimarco
06-03-2010, 14:36
its not that bad an idea, it could even stop people taking a certain slaanesh ability and taking a certain nurgle aligned troop backed up by a certain unaligned unit who can morph into whatever weapon they want

im all for characters providing different skills to their aligned units so typhus would provide some kind of buff only usable by plague marines etc

what we kinnda have right now is like codex marines only without the bonuses, so yeah your vulkan (who is a salamander) can lead your ultramarines and give all kinds of benifits to them in the same way that lucius can lead your world eaters but does nothing

at least only allowing the character to enhance his legion would be a lot fairer than this mixing whatever characters you want into whatever chapter to claim their benifit

Askari
06-03-2010, 15:04
I'd much rather that Chaos Lords, Daemon Princes and Sorcerers get a "Lord of Chaos/Khorne/Nurgle/Tzeentch/Slaanesh" upgrade that gives the same kind of benefits to your army, and make it so that you cannot take two Lord of ... upgrades. Each special character would then have one of these abilities.

Griffindale
06-03-2010, 16:20
I would like GW to essentially say "our bad" and reprint the 3.5 dex with minimal updating. Failing that, I'd go with what you've got as it's close enough.

Those days are gone.

The new codex isn't bad. It could just use some fleshing out. Customizeable daemons, maybe a change or two to the crazed rule, and it should be cool. Personally, I just hope Robin Cruddance does your codex. If anyone of the current authors can fix chaos, it'll be him. He's fantastic.

Logarithm Udgaur
07-03-2010, 00:25
^ I dont not know if many Tyranid players would agree with you there. Since I am a traitor guard player I am more than in agreement (though I would still rather have LatD).

Count de Monet
07-03-2010, 02:17
Change Lash to a more restricted version or replace with a less abusive power.

Ability for more variety in psychic powers and some measure of psychic defense.

Make Spawn a bit better.

HQ Sorcerors Fearless.

Change Dread fire frenzy back to enemy first, then friendly if no enemy in range.

Allow for Possessed to buy abilities instead of random roll to allow for better
modelling among other things.

Cult unit options expanded past troops, allowing for full-on Cult terminators, etc. in addition to options for icon-toting versions.

Lesser/Greater Daemons can be marked to change stats a bit (+1 T, +1 A, etc.). Option to be counted as compulsory choices for Xpts to allow for various -wing armies.

HQ - DP, Lord, Sorceror as now (+summoned greater daemon). Decide on which HQ is your main leader. They will have options that can change or theme your force.
*Master of Blood, Rot, etc. - allow for the various cult units of appropriate god above the normal cult PA guys, and allows for the normal cult PA guys to be troops, allowing for full armies for the Cult Legions.
*Master of Chaos - more expensive than above, allows for a mix of the various cult units, allowing for funky mixed Black Legion type armies.
*Master of Stealth - regular CSM and Havoc squads (non-cult) have mandatory Stealth at Xpts and option to buy Infiltrate, allowing for Alpha Legion and Night Lords players to feel sneaky.
*Master of Faith - iconed units must buy Fearless for Xpts. Here you go Word Bearers.
*Master of Seige - Bolster Defenses for one piece of terrain, and ability to call in barrages like IG Master of Ordnance. Tah dah, Iron Warriors.

Special Characters (Abbadon, Kharn, etc. ) will all likely have one of the above already included in their cost. If you include more than one SC you will have to decide which is pre-eminent and therefore whose rule applies to the army. Abby would automatically override others.

Elite:
Terms (icon options)
Cult Terms
Dreads
Chosen (icon options)
"Chaos Bada**" (title in progress) - single PA-armored guy running around like Marbo or an assassin. Variety of options. Allow for AL or NL-type terror operative.
Plague Marines
Berzerkers
Noise Marines
Thousand Sons

Troops:
CSM, icon options
Lesser Daemons

Fast Attack:
Bikers (with some cult options)
Raptors (with some cult options)
Cavalry (generic type plus god-specific options like juggernauts/disc riders etc.)
Spawn

Heavy Support:
Land Raider
Vindicator
Defiler
Obliterators
Havocs (with some cult options)

duffybear1988
07-03-2010, 02:23
I agree with everything Juggalo posted above. (post number 201).

Born Again
07-03-2010, 06:34
Ok...my list of changes

-Drop the cult marines
-Change icons to just teleporter homers. No more "mark" icons.
-Any unit other than oblits may be given marks for xpts per model. Change the marks to the following:

-Mark of Khorne: +1 attack. For xpts, any non-daemon model with a mark of khorne may be upgraded to a world eater. World eaters have +1WS and furious charge.

-Mark of Nurgle: +1 toughness. For xpts, any non-daemon model with a mark of nurgle may be upgraded to a death guard. Death guard have feel no pain and defensive grenades.

-Mark of Slaanesh: +1 initiative and fearless. For xpts, any non-daemon model with a mark of slaanesh may be upgraded to an emperor's children. Emperor's Children may replace their weapons with sonic blasters for free. One emperor's children per unit may replace their weapons with a blast master for free. Emperor's children chaos lords and aspiring champions may be given doom sirens for xpts each.

-Mark of Tzeentch: 5+ invulnerable save (or +1 to an existing save). For xpts, any non-daemon model with a mark of tzeentch may be upgraded to a thousand son. Thousand sons have slow and purposeful and replace their weapons with inferno bolters. Thousand son terminators have slow and purposeful and replace their weapons with twin-linked inferno bolters and power weapons. Thousand sons aspiring champion and chaos lords get one psychic power and a force weapon for free.


I like these ideas of yours and were thinking similar things myself. I'd be tempted to use the wordings of "Berzerker" and "Plague Marine" instead of "World Eater", "Death Guard" etc, but the way the marks work, then have icons as teleport homers (for summoning daemons) would be good.


Please don't wish too hard for this one. The idea of Chaos Marine venerating different powers while working together has been around since the 2ed Codex. It's the DAEMONS that should have some kind of restriction. Even then, you could field them in the same army - it's just that nasty things could happen if two Daemon units of opposing powers got within 12" of each other.


What? Can it be someone else remembers the fact Chaos fluff hasn't changed that much in the past 14 years?

Vermin-thing
07-03-2010, 07:14
Ha, totally missed this thread. Now for some epic wish-listing:

Army wide rules: re-rolls vs codex marines, marks for all units.

HQ: Daemon price taken out. :D Chaos lord with full two pages of options including dreadnought armor, and daemon price upgrades.

Exulted daemon as a sort of Chaplin that gives units battle frenzy/whatever depending on marks.

Sorcerer lord: as per chaos lord but physic powers and stuff, upgrade to thousand suns dreadnought. Starts cheep and can get expensive.

Mid level character for small games. Can have a number of "blessings" and powers.

Traitor lord: leader of lost and the damned armies, makes traitor guard scoring, as well as elite with veteran upgrades.

Troops: Generic chaos marines, can upgrade to any of the legions, and several major warband factions; iron warriors, alpha legion...

Traitor guard: don't count as scoring. large squad size, 20+ (no cap) can have chimeras of sorts.

Possessed marines, and guard. 5-15 squad sizes, champions may take "gifts".

Rage dreadnoughts: 1-3 squad, almost no armor, 2 CCW, can buy homers for deep-striking. Insane, on a 1 or 6 they get fearless, furious charge. Number of upgrades. Non scoring.

Elite: Terminators, fire frenzy dreadnoughts, warped dreadnought, possessed assault troops, kill squads (see death company), mutant ogres.

Fast attack: Rapters, death reapers (winged daemons with scythe power weapons), insane berserkers (khrone guys with more attacks), close combat terminator (1 guy) with deep strike, bikes.

Heavy support: Iron warrior influenced stuff, soul grinder, defiler, great daemon, oblitorators, havocs.

Lanparth
07-03-2010, 09:07
One quick note-

Has anyone noticed the 3.5 Chaos Codex looks almost tame compared to some of the new nightmares being released now?

Space Wolves. Blood Angels. Orks.

All the newer codexes seem to be shifting towards being monster books. Where as Daemons, Dark Angels, and Chaos Marines kinda got pooped on.



But back on topic. I'd want Legions, and nothing short of. If GW wants to sell these damn minis again and see people play, they'd best cater to that wish.





Edit: One quick thing.

Regularly marked Chaos Squads are not going away. As in "I give my Squad of marines Mark of Nurgle" and ect. Why? The models. Icons and their bearers are here to stay for economic reasons, not reasons of sense. GW wants you to have icons so they can sell more marine boxes and icon bearers. Its really that simple. Its pathetic, and sucks, but there you go.

samiens
07-03-2010, 09:17
I actually quite like the chapter tactics type approach- if you bring back marks then for Nurgle you simply have a rule like:

If you take (let's be honest it'll be special character based) Typhus, then units with the mark of nurgle get feel no pain and so on.

Maybe chaos glory should be a bit buffed to compensate. The fact is that we are starting to look a little overcosted so the balance needs redressing somehow- though following imthe trend we should get 15 point chaos marines with counter-attack, chaos glory, the whole weapon panapoly and maybe furious charge too ;)

Askari
07-03-2010, 10:53
It's nice and reassuring to see many of the posters on this thread are wishing for the same things.

We might even get it now... (I stress the might)

Earthbeard
07-03-2010, 14:05
It's nice and reassuring to see many of the posters on this thread are wishing for the same things.

We might even get it now... (I stress the might)

We can hope, but I fear the codex will end up being at the fore front of another design shift.

jthdotcom
07-03-2010, 14:27
Characters with Eternal Warrior!! And some better than 5+ invunerable saves would make sense,without needing mark of tzeentch

BladeWalker
07-03-2010, 15:19
I'd like some Fast Attack choices that are viable. I'd like more options for Princes/Lords, god specific Daemons, and the ability to give Terminators cult troops abilities rather than just a Icon.

I play Black Legion so my wishlist is shorter, I actually still enjoy the current book (but would love to have a newer book asap).

williamhm
07-03-2010, 15:54
It's nice and reassuring to see many of the posters on this thread are wishing for the same things.

We might even get it now... (I stress the might)

Well first I think Dark Eldar and Necrons are due but after those two it should be chaos then Tao then Eldar, at least thats the order id do them in.

Griffindale
07-03-2010, 17:28
Characters with Eternal Warrior!! And some better than 5+ invunerable saves would make sense,without needing mark of tzeentch

Design shift seems to be going away from this. At most its given to characters that are going to be attacking last and need it to get their shots in, but even that they're shying away from.

carl
07-03-2010, 22:01
As others have pointed out, they don't. The IW, NL, and AL don't. I don't think BL is overzealous. Those legions have individuals that worship Chaos, but the majority of them don't. They use Chaos as a means to an end. Of course they recognize the power of daemons and such, but they don't build altars. If you want to call four of the original Chaos legions renegades, then be my guest.



They turned willingly, but they didn't turn to Chaos initially. They turned away from the Emperor. They thought that they knew a better path for humanity (WB being the exception). The LW followed their primarch. He was one of the most loved and respected men in the Galaxy. His legion was proud of him. They were his children (of sorts). A lot of them even looked like Horus. The IW were already jealous of the other legions in being denied glory. Their homeworld rebelled. They slaughtered the population of Olympia in a fit of rage. Once they realized what they had done, they were kinda stuck with Horus.



I'd say that most began to fall out of loyalty, duty, and martial pride. The WB are the biggest reason for the HH. They orchestrated the whole thing. They are the big exception. They were already worshipping Chaos before the Heresy. The WE have several reasons for falling. They could shed blood, and that's what eventually led them to Korne. However, part of it is Angron never forgave the Emp for leaving his men on his homeworld to die. The EC did seek perfection. They were vain. That did make for a match with Slaanesh. Their big fall came when their primarch became possesed though.



Have you ever been in the military? When the fighting starts, you are not fighting for some flag. You are fighting for yourself and your buddies right next to you. You follow the man leading you without question. There were studies of German soldiers post WW II. The majority of them said they were fighting for the men next to them. They didn't fight for Nazi idealogy. They weren't even fighting for a greater Germany. What I'm saying is say a civil war broke out in the U.S. Most of the guys in 10th Mountain will fight for the guys in 10th Mountain. They wouldn't care if they were fighting against guys in the 101st.



You won't get any argument from me on this point. Once Chaos gets it's claws on you, you are likely to follow down that path. Some of the Fallen might be exceptions. If GW still has the Illuminatti, then they'd be another exception.



Oh, the legions I mentioned are Chaos. They just don't worship Chaos. I'm not trying to say any of them are nice. I'm just saying they don't do evil for evil's sake. They do whatever they can to better themselves.



Well, the four cult legions and WB are devout worshippers of Chaos. Those weren't the guys I was really arguing about. Although that's not why they initially fell (again, WBs excepted).



Agreed. However, I will maintain that they don't do evil just to do it. They do things to better their position in the EoT. Sometimes it might be for entertainment.



Well a lot of the stories do make it more tragic.



Agreed as far as the current timeline is concerned. However, the long war is at the forefront of most (undivided) CSMs' thinking.



I liked Bale and Sindri. They were decent examples of a CSM's motivation. I don't like a lot of the units' lines in the game. Eliphas is a WB, so his motivations are different from other undivided CSM.



I will argue the worshipping bit. I'd also argue that the motivation is important to an extent. That hatred is something that is iconic to CSM as far as I'm concerned.

.

Exactly.




Most of them don't. DPs are rewarded for doing a good job. You don't have to worship something to have the same goals. By achieving those goals, they get rewarded. Sorcerors use the power of the Warp. They may or may not worship Chaos. If this is your reasoning, then all farseers and librarians worship Chaos as well. Bezerkers may or may not worship Chaos. I do believe that some IW do worship Korne, and go way down that path. Possessed make deals with daemons. Just because you make deals with daemons does not mean that you worship the Chaos gods. Don't inquisitors bind/use daemons? Do they worship Chaos? The Avatar is a daemon. Does that make all Eldar Chaos worshippers? There is a difference between using what you can to advance your agenda and actually building altars and worshipping the Chaos gods.




This is why I have always pushed for multiple codices. If the OP wants to know what I really and truly want from the next Chaos dex, it's five codices.

The first would be like the current dex but with more loyalist weapons and fewer daemons and ancient weapons. It would be called Renegades. It would be for newer CSM.

The second will be for the cults. It would include rules for WE, DG, EC, and TS. They would get more daemons, but would be restricted to units from their own cult list. Animosity would definately play a big part (in Apocalypse/allied games).

The third would be for the remaining five legions. It would be similar to the 3.5 lists (though a bit toned down).

The fourth book would be daemons or daemon world armies. It would be like the current daemon book or maybe more like the daemon world army list from 2nd ed.

The last book would be LatD. It would have cultists, traitor guard, and mutants. It could include beasts if the daemon book didn't. It might have some daemons (I'd vote for the generic kind or the ones from the daemon list, but restricted in numbers).

If GW broke Chaos down into 5 codices, then everyone would be happy (except maybe DE players who would have to wait another decade for their codex :p).


Sorry for taking so long to get back to you, been relaxing and chilling the last few days instead of posting much.

Overall i think where largely on the same page and i think i clarified my position re: worship just prior to your post so i don't think we need to go there. In fact i think the only point left for us to cover is with regards your point about them foloowing horus becuase he;s in charge e.t.c.

I'm not arguing that those factors don't play a part, rather that even in a hevaily indoctrined military enviroment it is verty rare for the entierty of a military force to folow the kind of orders horus gave at the outset of the herasy. Military training, and the nature of SM's does make it easier than with say a joe off the street. But likewise as history's collection of military coups turned civil wars tends to showm, give a large enough force of men sufficently unushual orders and they will question themm, training and loyalty irrespective.

The fact that horus recived so littile questioning, (as did many of the other legions) clearly points to some additinal outside factor being in place that effectivlly dealt with that for horus IMHO.



Now to wade in on the actual topic:


Here's how i'd handle things:

Each basic CSM squad type, (RAptors, Havocs, Terminators, basic CSM, e.t.c). Would be handled through a simple system. Here's hopw iot would run:

Choose basic squad, (not including aspiring champion who is now a seperate form of upgrade handled a littile diffrently).

You may now give them any combination of the following:

Mark of Chaos
1 Vetran Skill

Units which take a mark may be upgraded to Cult Troops, (Undivided lets you take a second Vetran Skill instead). These are treated in all respects as current Legion Troopers, (i.e. they get the same equipment and most of the same special rules).

Units which take a mark and do not take Vetran Skills may alternativly be upgraded to Legion status. This gives them a new profile plus Cult unit equipment and special rules, (plus the odd extra benefit, not counting how it affects aspiring champion).

In all probability 6 profiles will be neeed, one basic profile, one for each god specific legion, and one for the rest of the legions.

In addittion units would gain the aility to take the posesed upgrade (regardless of all other upgrades). This gives them the ability to take one demonic mutation, (or 1 more than normal if they allready have acess to them), but comes with some form of downside.


This leads into HQ's and Aspiring Champions and Chosen.

Chosen simply consists of 3-10 Aspiring Champions with any combination of upgrades you wish, (and diffrent models may take diffrent upgrades, marks, e.t.c.).

HQ choices are very simila to basic troops in the sense of one base profile and the leguion profiles, options for marks, vetran skills, and cult/legion upgrades. Their main diffrance is wargear and demonic mutations access. Though they do get the aspiring champion upgrades with regards TS sourcourwers, WB Dark Apostles, e.t.c.


Aspiring champions are where the big changes happen.

Specificlly they have all the upgrades of the units avalibile to them, but can also take HQ grade wargear and can be heavilly upgraded. Initially their just basic CSM/Legion CSM troopers with +1A. If taken for a unit they must take all upgrades the unit takes and start with the same wargear as the basic troopers in the unit. Otherwise they may take what they please beyond that, with the exception that non legion units cannot take the Champion upgrade on their Aspiring Champions.

The addittinol upgrades and limitations they oporate under beyond normal wargear is:

Any can be upgraded to eithier Favoured or Champion Status, (bearing in mind the prior limitation with regards non-legion units). Favoured and Chosen are just +1A. Those upgraded to Champion status gain a new profile which is better than that of a favoured Aspiring champion, (notably one more attack and +1W). They also get access to more demonic mutations as they go up. Aspiring Champions can have 1. Favoure 2. Champions 3, and Chosen 4. Of course they can have [possesion for an extra one. Leguion specific ones can also get extra upgrades, (WB can become dark apostles with the same effect for their squad as a SM Chaplin, TS can become full sourcerers, e.t.c.). Also simple aspiring chapions only get bvasicv deamon weapons, favoured get a few more, Champions a few more still, and Chosen get everything but the cool HQW only toys.


Deamon Weapons: Full expanded list of them with a veriety of weapons, ranging from basic to all out. As noted above full acess for Aspiring champions but with limitations. HQ chioces each get a few specific items for themselves. Plus Lords (unlike DP's and Sourcerers), can take some of the more killy or sourcoures weapons that are avilibile to the DP or the Sourcerour but not their oppsossitte number. In effect he gets a few itmes all of his own,. plus most f what the other two get. only the most powerful itmes specific to these two are denied the Lord.



What does all this boil down to:

Well first, whilst an annoying number of profiles would be needed, (10 for the GT's and LEsser Deamons, 6 for each of the CSM squads , 6 each for the CL and Sourcourer, and another 1 for the DP, plus 6 each for the Aspiring Champions/Champions). It opens a great deree of customisation within a framework thats far more controllable than it's 3.5 vershion. More importantly it lets you represent anything form basic chaos renegades warband. All the way upto a legion force led by a really nasty set f HQ's.

The aspiring Champions in particular are my favirote part as they let you represent every concivable variation, from the basic just starting through to the, just below Lord level, 9allthough the Legion Chosen Champions are allmost an equal for the non-Legion Loprds to be fair, and just as crazilly costly.)

Askari
07-03-2010, 22:18
If Warseer had a Facebook style "like" button, I'd like the above.

Rapator
09-03-2010, 16:53
Hi guys,
nice bunch of wishies but there is one think you have to consider: Trend in codices is to simplyfy and reduct, so there will SURELY be no page of options for Lord (although DP could have more) and they stopped restricting units so I doubt there will be any restricton for DPs. Just compare it to SMs and orks, they can have two chapter masters(!) and two warbosses (perosnally think thats bigger nonsense as two DPs...). DP is equivalent of SM CHM or ork warboss and CHL is equivalent of SM Commander. So what I miss? Lesser fragility to our characters. Yes DP is EW and SM chars are not but is targetable even by shooting while both SM chars accompanied by honor guard are untargetable and lesser vunerable to PFs (Same as warboss is lesser vunerable thanks to T5). But CHL has no way to protect himself against PFs. DP has it but he suffers terribly from shooting. Also more options for DP would be great his wargear options are quite poor compared to warboss or CHM. And CSM commanders and named chars. could provide some bonus for army just like Shrike or SM captain with bike....

Also more love to Undivided and its legions would be great (why it doesnt have own steed?, there are four cult troops so why no new "undivided-unique cult troop"?)

Some of you mentioned icon=>mark=>cult troop system but you forgot about one think: cult troops ARE nothing more than just marked troops. Icons are fine IMO and I even can understand why marines lost blessing of their patron when icon bearer falls: If you are chaos god you have to be pretty arrogant and selfish so it can upset you if those pesky ants drop your flag. There is another way how to deal with it: AFAIK you can give icon to anyone even to champ. It is favoured of god and his death may result to loosing gods patronage. But, It would be nice if cult troops werent just power armoured footsloggers. If dex could contain basic CSM, chosen and bikers in just one page, why it couldnt contain options for cult troops? (e.g. Zerks on juggernauts - as bikers, aspiring sorcs on discs of tzeench as raptors). Also I think that PM and KB need to be nerfed a little and TS and NM boosted or get cheaper. I think GW excluded cult termies because of balance: WS5 FC or T5 FNP /w BG fearless termies would be nasty (they are nasty even now with icon and lesser bonuses), maybe they would need nerfing in other way (DG I3 and just one attack? WE termies - no shooting weapons and no invul sv?) Also I am against veteran skills, in my opinion its too overpowered, maybe even option to buy heavy weapon even to 5-man squad would be great... And give termies option to buy heavy weaopns for every thir termie and make RA cheaper please...

Also I think that raptors and bikers cost too much, drednought needs to be either much cheaper or his crazed rules have to change (and why not change COMPLETELLY? little variations of same rule since 3rd ed is quite boring), possesed arent completely random they are always CC oriented and quite worhtwhile if marked and in rhino (if they roll scout move in rhino, their transpor can also scout) but should be cheaper or be cavalery/beast or simply moving faster. Also cheaper pred and even cheaper LR would be nice. Maybe move oblits to elite to avoid people spamming them and taking them before another HS choices.

Last but not least: AFAIK every 5ed codex has a special squad commander who can be attached to squad to provide some bonus for it (you know what I think - chars like Snikrot or Tellion) so why chaos dex does not?

carl
09-03-2010, 17:36
@Rapator@ the thing is thats what the iconds in the current dex replaced. he old marks.

Cult troops are not siomply markled troops, (who are tose with the favour of a given god), they are those who have given themselves over entierly to the worship of said entity. They're effectivlly that gods favoured marked troops.

Likewise the current icon system is a balance FUBAR of epic proportions. Icons are somthing you pay a lot for and that are worth a huge amount on the feild. Lose that early in the game and your suddenlly fighting at a major disadvantage. you specificlly gave up the option of spending those points on more units to buy those icons. Those icons NEED to earn the extra points back you payed for them in terms of increased unit efectivness on the feild. If you lose the benefits of said icon your going to find that very hard to do, on the other hand your still several models per icon down on arm size. your effectivlly now fighting as if you where feilding an army smaller than your opponnents in total points.

lastly. No one is asking for pages of options. Consider that the current SM Captain/Chapter Master has no less than 6 seperate items in his options that a CSM Lord could not be expected to have and you realise that it would be quite easy to add in gifts with no increase in number of options and only a small increase would be needed to accommodate varied deamon weapons. Especially since for the sake of balance the various mark specific Deamon weapons would HAVE to be of comparable power, (and thus price), to prevent one combo being instantly supriour. Thus like many SM options they could be listed as a unifed "May take X, Y, or Z for +XPt's".

GrogDaTyrant
09-03-2010, 17:39
It's definitely been said already, but I think seeing the Chaos Dreadnought worth fielding again would be cool.

Ozendorph
09-03-2010, 18:04
Step 1: Make the shunned units more appealing. Chaos Spawn, Dreadnoughts, Possessed...having random rolls is fine (chaos, after all) but make sure the unit cost/stats/rules make them a tempting if inconsistent choice. Right now the upside just isn't what it needs to be.

Step 2: Make Cult/Legion armies more viable. Many players like themed armies with interesting options. Help these guys out. I'd list out a bunch of ideas (most of which can be found in some form in "Slaves to Darkness" and "The Lost and The Damned"), but I think you all understand what I'm getting at.

Step 3: Include cultists. Even just a couple unit entries to act as followers/serfs would make so many themes possible. Options for Marks and/or mutations and the inclusion of heavy stubbers would lead to a lot of fist pumping and high fives.

Big bonus points for marked vehicles, plastic raptors, plastic Dread kit, and sexy wargear/options for the Chaos Lord.

overthrow
10-03-2010, 13:51
as a preface, i started 40k in 4th ed but have read some of the earlier codexes and i'm pretty bored with the codex. i'm not including points adjustments but the general trend i'd like to see is for chaos space marines to become less tech-poor renegade and more of an elite fighting force. any shift towards chaos legions is obviously strongly welcomed but neither should they abandon the black legion / renegade feel, so as not to invalidate the current codex either. Also, I'm not saying that all of these should be implemented; if they were we'd end up with a horrifically unbalanced codex.

the newer codexes often include some drastic changes to the codex that bring units to new levels. For example, expansion of platoons in IG, vendetta / valkyrie IG flyers, thunderwolf cav to space wolves, from what I read on the internets every single thing in the blood angels codex, expansion of tyranid monstrous creatures... I'd like to see a unit from the current chaos codex be promoted to that new 'level'. My choice would be chosen/terminators or cult terminators, detailed below.

morale: basic CSM troop archetypes have an issue with morale. there's no reason that a blob of imperial guard with a commissar should have better morale than our troops. Stubborn, or stubborn with reroll could be appropriate, or some funky rule akin to ATSKNF/Combat Tactics.

icons should be turned into marks, especially for lesser daemons / possessed. marks should expand to include an appropriate option for word bearers for example, or a weapon option for iron warriors. alternately, other legions with legion-appropriate HQs could unlock portions of the FOC as troops. for example, iron warriors HQ allows 1-n havoc squads as troops, night lords unlock 1-n bikers/raptors as troops, alpha legion unlock chosen or cultists as troops or give infiltrate ability to basic CSM.

basic CSM / bikers / raptors / havocs: there should be some differentiation between these units besides has a jet pack / has a bike / has a heavy weapon. besides the aforementioned icon and morale problems, there's still no focus on what makes these troops unique from any other troop in another army that has a jet pack / has a bike / has a heavy weapon. to use havocs as an example, something creative like the long fang split fire or something more mundane like the 'tank hunter' USR could certainly find its way into these squads as appropriate to differentiate chaos space marine troops. raptors could incur morale penalties for their enemies, and biker gangs could perhaps get a CC weapon option or boost to combat abilities. character upgrades to these squads would be a welcome addition.

HQs: besides kharn, most chaos HQs don't scale down effectively and they don't scale up effectively. Fabius Bile is arguably the only support HQ we get. Expanding HQ support roles would be great -- sorcerers provide psychic defense or better psychic offense, or chaos HQ provides fearless or equivalent of inquisitor 'iron will' to troops for word bearer chaplain equivalent, for example. a 2 wound lord / sorceror would help the HQ selection to scale down for lower points games. daemon princes shouldn't occupy the middle ground of HQ slots, they should be amped up. character HQ abilities could be adapted to reflect the imperial conflict. For example, a night lords HQ fearsome prowess could negate the abilities of combat tactics / ATSKNF to nearby loyalist marines.

warp technology: 10,000 years of daemonic technology progress should yield better upgrades for elite and hq slots. 2+ armor saves from ensorcelled armor, guns that shoot warp matter, etc.

scale better for 2500 point games and above: create some new thing or take some old thing. allow us to squadron it. allow creation of uber squads with uber point levels and corresponding uber abilities instead of point sinks. Again, looking squarely at chosen and terminators here.

iron warriors / tech marine / technobliterator: for 10,000 years, chaos space marines have been creating chaos-infused vehicles and technology. make an awesome model and put them on the board as an elite / heavy / hq.

Foot lists vs. mech: half of our cult troops are shooty but lack what it takes to make viable foot lists, something needs to change. either they should get the grit they need to be viable on foot, or something else. an open-topped transport vehicle boosts the chaos troops that aren't plague marines.

daemonic possession allows all weapons to shoot at bs3 if the vehicle moved < 6". put that in your pipe and smoke it, machine spirit!

cult terminators: they should exist, either as upgrade opportunities to chosen/terminators, or separately.

chosen and terminators: I feel the weakness of our codex most strongly here, the elite section of our codex just isn't that elite. tactically, the elites are used to get suicide melta, more land raiders, or field the models that you really like, or some combination of the three. chosen should be able to purchase terminator upgrades, land raiders as a transport, WS5 or BS5 with champ upgrade, and should be fearless. I'd like to see chosen become the non-cult terminator codex of equivalent of command squads, retinues, wolf guard, nobz, incubis, whatever. if they want to honor the days of suicide terminators, make this squad size 1-10.

possessed: champion upgrades, icons converted to marks (if the daemon is within, why does the stick matter?), and separation of movement skills and close combat skills could make rolling for daemonkin more interesting. Seriously, I wouldn't gripe about random abilities if I was getting both a movement and combat skill, or got to choose one or the other. roll for daemonkin ability prior to deployment.

spawn: 4+ invulnerable save or dramatic points readjustment. it could be interesting to make them an upgrade for possessed.

cult troops: as they stand, they are great troops, though some tweaks would be welcomed. assault weapons for khorne berserkers (note the 'burn' in kill! maim! burn!), perhaps cover-busting options or magical bs5 for thousand sons, and maybe provide more close combat upgrades to emperor's children.

hordelings / lesser daemons / cultists: start with cc option. allow for a shooty upgrade. also allow for chaos god marks, which require deep strike from an icon and allow assault after deep strike. the previous codex could have made this a somewhat palatable choice for several legion-specific builds and allowed 3e armies to keep a semblance of look and feel.

obliterators: obliterators are great. allowing them in troop sizes of 1-4 would help chaos scale up for high point games.
defiler:
vindicator / predator: add chaos god specific weaponry to differentiate from loyalists.
dreads: allow for marks and chaos god specific weaponry, clarify rules for firing on own troops.
land raider: chaos god specific weaponry and daemonic possession rule change above.

bonus: include daemon units or flyers from forgeworld in the codex.

sliganian
10-03-2010, 15:46
Ooo, one I forgot about that would be nice:

DREADCLAWS!

(that's a 'Drop Pod' to you Loyalist scum).

Mannimarco
10-03-2010, 15:55
theres a reoccuring theme of "more! bigger! better!"

nobody wants CSM to be "loyalist marines with spikes" however a lot of what people are asking for is "I want X Y and Z, like what the loyalist dex gets"

malisteen
10-03-2010, 15:59
theres a reoccuring theme of "more! bigger! better!"

nobody wants CSM to be "loyalist marines with spikes" however a lot of what people are asking for is "I want X Y and Z, like what the loyalist dex gets"

The current book is very 'streamlined' - to some it feels almost skeletal, so 'more & bigger' seem like reasonable requests. Better? well, the current book isn't exactly non-functional. you can build perfectly decent armies out of it. While there are lousy options (I'm looking at you possessed), I'm not looking for the army overall to be made more powerful. Just more involved - more interesting.

I agree that asking for the same options as loyalists defeats the point of having a chaos marine book in the first place, but I could see people reasonably wanting a similar number of options to loyalists. I don't care about having land speeders, or 3+inv terminators, or even drop pods (although I wouldn't mind the latter either). What I would like would be a codex where the 'unit description' section of the book was more close to the number of pages in that section of the marine book.


I'd like to see a greater focus on modern chaos legions, rather then heresy era legions or modern non-legion traitor forces. Particularly an idea of their structure and recruitment. I'd like to see a three tiered system:

Full Legion Members: heroes, vets, terminators, & cults, basically, including oblits as unaligned cults, and maybe elevating raptors back to this level. These are the guys who have been fighting the imperium for thousands of years, whether they're original heresy traitors or not. These are the inner circle of the Legions, elite fighters hand picked by an individual chaos lord. Some of these choices might be restricted based on HQ (ie, you can't have plague marine terminators unless you have a nurgle marked hero), or might have additional access granted (ie, take a khorne marked lord and you can have berzerkers as a core choice).

Prospectives/Recruits: basic troops, fasts, & heavy units in power armor. These are new recruites, either recently turned traitor marines or cultists elevated to chaos marines using stolen geneseed. While they have power armor, they're less elite and less loyal then full legion members or even regular space marines. fewer equipment options. their champs would be full legion members tasked with judging the recruits. These units are given more dangerous and less glorious jobs, such as holding objectives (basic chaos marines), manning artillery (devastators), or advance scouting (bikes). Rank-wise, these would be similar to scouts in loyalist marines, though in terms of status they rate much lower, as evidenced by less in the way of special rules and equipment.

Rabble: lowest on the totem pole would be cultists, mutants, traitor guard, and summoned daemons. Being neither legion members nor prospective legion members (though cultists would always be fighting in the hope that they might one day be elevated to the rank of prospective), they would be viewed as completely expendable cannon fodder.


A distinction would be made in the fluff between daemons who fully manifest during a warp rift or incursion, and daemons who are summoned or bound into artificial bodies - whether flesh & blood sacrifices or warp-energy puppets. Chaos marines would use bound or summoned daemons because they could be controlled. This would justify having separate stats for 'greater daemon' and 'lesser daemon' rather then the individual stats from the daemons books, though some options - marks at least - would be ideal. Bound greater daemons would have less stature in chaos marine armies then they do in daemon armies (in much the same way as daemon princes have less stature in daemonic armies), and would be moved to heavy support. Lesser daemons would be used as expendible shock troops, and fielded as fast attack.

Following the conventions of recent codeces, there would be a lot of special characters, and these characters would be used to introduce army variants.

Ideally, the book would be able to support LatD style armies, elite Legion armies, or something inbetween, as well as being able to adequately support aligned armies. Of course, to fit everything in the same book some things, say noise marine bikers or thousand sons sorcerer covens, still wouldn't fit, so there'd still be room for individual legion armies if FW wanted to support them.




Overall Structure might look like:

HQ-
- 12 special characters - 1 for each legion plus Bile, Cypher, and Blackheart
- Daemon Prince
- Chaos Lord, w/ sorc upgrade.

Elite-
- Legionnaires (undivided-only vets w/ termie option)
- Berzerkers (w/ termie option)
- Noise Marines (w/ termie option)
- Plague Marines (w/ termie option)
- Thousand Sons (w/ termie option)
- Possessed
- Dreadnought

Troops-
- Traitor Marines
- Cultists (shooty fodder, possibly with option for infiltrate)
- Mutants (fighty fodder, w/ option for a couple spawn/big mutants)

Transports-
- Rhino
- Land Raider (for elite units)

Fast-
- Raptors (possibly their own cult with extra special rules, no marks)
- Bikes
- Summoned Daemons (markable, assault on the turn they deep strike)

Heavy-
- Devastators
- Oblits
- Predator
- Vindicator
- Land Raider
- Defiler
- Daemonhost / Bound Greater Daemon


Maybe a few extras here or there. Perhaps a 'traitor tank' in heavy similar to ork looted vehicles - possibly as a replacement for the vindicator? maybe a new fast attack daemon engine? maybe a new land raider variant? maybe drop pods/dread claws as a new transport option? Maybe a lesser hero option, or giving each mark it's own unique 'chaos lord' entry, making it easier to assign individual stats and special rules for generic aligned heroes?

Certainly not all of the above, but enough new toys to make the book interesting to established players. And give them something to buy, of course.


It goes without saying that even a well thought out structure to the army doesn't mean anything if the options aren't balanced though. Everything would need to be playable - nothing like the current spawn, possessed, or dreadnought. And nothing that overshadows other options, either - so nothing like the current lash of submission, either.

Vaktathi
10-03-2010, 16:11
cult troops ARE nothing more than just marked troops. Not exactly.

CSM's devoted to Khorne are bloodthirsty killers, but a Berzerker is so much more, involving psycholobotomization and the like in addition to a devotion to Khorne. That's why there's a difference CSM's with an Icon of Khorne and Berzerkers. However, this difference is not showcased in any FoC slot other than basic troops, with things like Terminators only being able to take the Icons instead of being able to be true Cult Legion units.


nice bunch of wishies but there is one think you have to consider: Trend in codices is to simplyfy and reduct When the CSM & DA books were written, that was true. That said, between the SM, IG, SW and upcoming BA book (especially BA's) they have thrown in more things than we've had since 2E.

Scribe of Khorne
10-03-2010, 16:12
What they did for BA's, they should do for WE's. That would be a start.

A Daemon Prince should be, really, a God on the field of battle. This is a being who has fought for 1000's of years, has the power of the warp at his back, and is generally there to wreck people, yet....he goes down if caught in the open by heavy bolters.

Sorcerers should be ATLEAST as good as librarians.

Add some new special characters that mess with force org or special army wide rules like the SM codex.

Bring back real daemons, take your cash grab elsewhere...

Either make a massive Codex: Chaos (legions, renegades (zzzz), LatD, Daemons) or give us specific books for each Legion.

I really dont like the current codex, its very boring, and needlessly restrictive unless you just really LOVE plague marines and oblits...:(

samiens
10-03-2010, 16:54
There are only 2 choices in the current book...as for restrictive- that would be individual legions.

seriously, all we need is something to give us our niche, most of the ideas here would just make chaos super marines with no weaknesses which would be awful for the game

Revelations
10-03-2010, 17:26
seriously, all we need is something to give us our niche, most of the ideas here would just make chaos super marines with no weaknesses which would be awful for the game
Unfortunately with the removal of Daemons, we lost a huge Niche. The random aspect was handed off to Orks (at least the useful and fun side of random) and our Elite status was given to the SW & BA players. So instead of being the Doomsdays we should have been, we got turned into Bizzaros.

Given the trend of current armies I think it would be neat to pull a 180. While other armies are all about syngery and buffing/complimenting each other, it would be interesting if Chaos was the other way; all about every man for himself and breaking how the enemy army functions. Disrupting army cohesion and having some kind of sliding scale where the individual Chaos units gain prestige and power through acts they commit on the battlefield while others try to compete for the same glories...

...dear god, I need to go make some changes to my Dex! :D

DeeKay
10-03-2010, 17:29
There are only 2 choices in the current book...as for restrictive- that would be individual legions.

seriously, all we need is something to give us our niche, most of the ideas here would just make chaos super marines with no weaknesses which would be awful for the game

I wouldn't use the word restrictive for the legions... fluffy maybe but not restrictive.

Yes, we do want something that gives us our niche but much of that was removed when GW decided to split CSM and daemons into seperate books. In my eyes, CSM are technologically inferior to normal marines but should have the ability to make up for that with the powers of the chaos gods, the entities that they are fighting for. Some people might argue that not all CSM worship chaos and that is true, but their actions further the cause of the gods, willingly or otherwise.

I don't think that having Cult upgrades for pretty much any of our units would be too powerful if they were inhibited by the mark they have in relation to the Leader of the army. i.e. If an army led by a Lord of Slaanesh is taken, they may upgrade Terminators, Havocs etc to Noise Marines for x points a model but may not have any unts with the mark of Khorne. Any Troops taking an upgrade of a different God are shifted into Elites and Elites, Fast Attack and Heavy Support options may not take other God's upgrades. That way, you avoid the army with Death Guard Terminators (BTW personally, I don't think T5 FNP 2+/5+sv is broken compared to Storm shield Termies) led by an Emperor's Children leader.

In truth, the 4th Ed book is not an uncompetitive book given the current state of the game. It is showing its age and its minimalist design process though. Some glaring fluff and rules issues don't help it either.

With regards,
Dan.

Edit: Damn it, beaten to it!

BobTheZombie
10-03-2010, 17:53
What Malisteen said.

I would love some more Daemon engines. Those, and some capacity for traitor guard/LatD, although they would be better served with their own codex. There is more than enough scope to make the next codex interesting and unique without making it overpowered.

overthrow
10-03-2010, 17:54
if there are restrictions on units taken depending on lords taken, you castrate black legion....

Vaktathi
10-03-2010, 17:58
if there are restrictions on units taken depending on lords taken, you castrate black legion....

Black Legion was built up to be the "we have everything" generic legion. It wasn't always such, not even all that long ago. the presence of all the specialized Cult units being a part of the Black Legion was overemphasized in the most recent codex.

DeeKay
10-03-2010, 18:06
@overthrow: I don't think that would be the case. Black Legion pretty much are the Vanilla flavour of the CSM so have a little of everything. You can have a Black Legion Lord with a Mark other than Chaos Undivided. However, whilst you give with one hand, you must take with the other to achieve balance, which is why only Death Guard armies are going to have Death Guard Terminators, and only Emperor's Children will have Blastmaster Havoc squads.

With regards,
Dan.

Dark Primus
10-03-2010, 20:44
I would want to see Predators armed with only Reaper Autocannons. That would be rather logical.
But it should be able to fire 8 shots st7 ap4 shots and the re-roll comes with it still.

loveless
10-03-2010, 20:53
Sonic options for:
- Lord
- Daemon Prince
- Sorcerer
- Noise Marines
- Chosen
- Terminators
- Havocs
- Bikes
- Predators (Blastmaster turret with Doom Siren sponsons - you know you'd love it).

Sonic weapons to not be ridiculously overcosted on non-Noise Marine options

Access to a decent (4+) Invulnerable save without resorting to being Tzeentchian

Reworked possessed - the models are far better than the rules.

Pictures of an all plastic Emperor's Children box to rival the Grey Hunters and Death Company boxes.

Dark Primus
10-03-2010, 21:27
And regarding Daemon Prince I want them with the option 2+ armor save as they were in the 3rd edition and still be T6.

Lord of Worms
10-03-2010, 21:27
if there are restrictions on units taken depending on lords taken, you castrate black legion....

No you dont.It's the way they always did it in the good codices.You'll run out of points before you run out of FOC.

Warmaster Bill
06-08-2010, 03:01
Being a CSM player, I would love to see the return of legions and veteran skills. However I can see some justification as to why there are no more veteran skills, time flows differently in the warp. It is the same reason that justifies the CSMs living to the age of 10,000.

ICEMANQ
06-08-2010, 03:34
I'd love to see decent bikers.

Isn't stopping me seriously contemplating a 27 bike/2 prince/2 zerker squads in rhinos 1850 point list for a tournament in Feb :p

Paraelix
06-08-2010, 03:43
Given they moved toward a more "renegade marine" codex. I'd like to see options representing this;
Stormbolters
Assault Cannons
Thunderhammers and Storm Shields
Scouts
Land Speeders
Land Raider Variants
Drop Pods
Better Psychic Powers

barrangas
06-08-2010, 04:39
Given they moved toward a more "renegade marine" codex. I'd like to see options representing this;
Stormbolters
Assault Cannons
Thunderhammers and Storm Shields
Scouts
Land Speeders
Land Raider Variants
Drop Pods
Better Psychic Powers

Honestly I'd rather see a C:SM SC that allowed Icons and Daemons to be taken at the expense of ATSKNF. Say a Relict.or Librarian with a Daemon Weapon. That way you could easily do a renegade chapter with all the regular SM toys fairly easily.