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Minigiant
01-03-2010, 16:48
Could Vampire counts play very well like the old fashion horde armies
Reasons why
1) they have enough magic available to them to grow into a horde army
2) they have the tarpit units and units manaevourable enough for the flank- Vanhels helps
3) They are immune to the biggest problem that faces horde- Leadership and Fear
4) an added bonus i think if designed right could have so many more tricks than just basic horde or basic VC

Ixquic
01-03-2010, 17:08
I guess.

Vampire Counts are in a bad situation right now. Against your standard pickup friendly game they are overpowered and un-fun to play against. Just by their nature they all cause fear, are ItP and have a lot of casting dice. Many armies (especially ones people throw together because of look or theme) can't deal with this.

However in the tournament scene they have recently gone down and are no longer top tier like they were when their book came out although a lot of people don't realize this. Many new armies have lots of magic defense making single dice casting risky (black tongue puppet combo, Slann discard 6s discipline, new beatman monster, fail leadership test and all failed casts are miscasts). Additionally Vampires just aren't that great in hand to hand against enemy characters. In the current metagame however Infernal Gateway will potentially one shot your entire army if you play the caster lord since he won't be in combat so that's not as viable a list anymore. Its "big monster" the Vargulf is also very weak after Hydras, ASF giants, Hellpit abominations, Stegadons and the Beastmen's trifecta which have become very important in Monsterhammer 7th edition. Vampires are also very weak against demons which are top dog and are always present at tournaments. The troops are still a great value but they just can't stand up to the sorts of ridiculousness that's happening when every book creeps up (beastmen actually don't look too crazy to me at this point though).

So basically you've got an army that has a (somewhat deserved) reputation for being overpowered, but can't measure up to the current power lists.

Leogun_91
01-03-2010, 17:45
Shouldn't this be in tactics.

I however do think it could work, it has lots of good things to help it and your fairly big army could quickly grow into a massive ASF horde, it's still not very powerful though but it could defenitively work.

The Red Scourge
01-03-2010, 17:50
My VC are based on big skellie/wight blocks with small 10 man ghoul blocks to negate ranks, and it works quite well - (only) supported by 9 PD, no Helm of Cheese or Hasslehoff banner, and my chances for even getting VHDM is quite limited :)

And its a lot more fun than playing an invo-spam list :)

@Leogun. ASF is really overrated in VC, it won't help against high elves, and tactics and invocation will take care of most other armies :)

Maoriboy007
01-03-2010, 20:46
Beastmen are actually pretty good against VC, having some very good combat units.

Alltaken
01-03-2010, 20:59
actually I believe VC to be a horde army, just not a starting horde, but grow horde in the amount of things you rise. You have to take into account that that number does go vary because of death and resurection cicle. But they play pretty much the same tactic

BigbyWolf
01-03-2010, 22:14
I'm doing my best to prove that VC can survive, or at least be moderately competitive without magic (as seen here...http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=246760), but only time will tell how this little descent into madness will work out!

shredshredxx
01-03-2010, 23:34
VC are not an intrinsically magic heavy army, like everyone seems to think they are. I play a list with one level 2 and 2 level 1 casters, 6 power dice. I do just fine. If you want to bunker up with a caster lord, waste awesome combat potential, and spam invocation to raise obscenely large units, go for it. That's an effective strategy against a lot of armies, and it relies on "horde army" tactics. It's just not as fun as some other lists. I enjoy balancing hordeyness with deathstarness and close combat characters, and i think the risk of throwing your general into combat is a lot more fun, but that's just me.

Maoriboy007
02-03-2010, 01:32
VC are not an intrinsically magic heavy army, like everyone seems to think they are. I play a list with one level 2 and 2 level 1 casters, 6 power dice. I do just fine. If you want to bunker up with a caster lord, waste awesome combat potential, and spam invocation to raise obscenely large units, go for it. That's an effective strategy against a lot of armies, and it relies on "horde army" tactics. It's just not as fun as some other lists. I enjoy balancing hordeyness with deathstarness and close combat characters, and i think the risk of throwing your general into combat is a lot more fun, but that's just me.

I play pretty much the same, although I'll go for 6 levels of magic (L3 L2 & L1).

Chainaxe07
02-03-2010, 22:00
Yes, they can be an horde army, and a decent one at that.
Just dont commit your general to combat, most if not all other armies can field characters that either hit harder or are more difficult to kill, or both really. And, on top of that, they dont over compromise their army if their generl dies, you do.
So yes, a horde army with casting, non fighting vampire general is probably the best way to go with VCs. And, to be honest, no one i know ever considered VCs overpowered, most old players (including me) even dropped the army as it was not considered competitive enough, especially against demons.
One note of colour, or curiosity if you allow me: in our (rather vast) gaming group the general consensus is that dwarves are, by a long shot, the most unbalanced, atrocious powergaming army...and are rather popular because of this! After them it's probably either demons or Lizardmen, and this is also reflected by the popularity of these armies.
Here on warseer, however, i notice many (not most, but still many) posters seem to think VCs (or the brilliant but certainly very far from overpowered Dark Elves) are right after the demons in power scale. So where do you put the nuclear holocaust dwarf gunline in this scale of comparison?

Nathangonmad
03-03-2010, 07:49
I guess.

Vampire Counts are in a bad situation right now. Against your standard pickup friendly game they are overpowered and un-fun to play against. Just by their nature they all cause fear, are ItP and have a lot of casting dice. Many armies (especially ones people throw together because of look or theme) can't deal with this.

However in the tournament scene they have recently gone down and are no longer top tier like they were when their book came out although a lot of people don't realize this. Many new armies have lots of magic defense making single dice casting risky (black tongue puppet combo, Slann discard 6s discipline, new beatman monster, fail leadership test and all failed casts are miscasts). Additionally Vampires just aren't that great in hand to hand against enemy characters. In the current metagame however Infernal Gateway will potentially one shot your entire army if you play the caster lord since he won't be in combat so that's not as viable a list anymore. Its "big monster" the Vargulf is also very weak after Hydras, ASF giants, Hellpit abominations, Stegadons and the Beastmen's trifecta which have become very important in Monsterhammer 7th edition. Vampires are also very weak against demons which are top dog and are always present at tournaments. The troops are still a great value but they just can't stand up to the sorts of ridiculousness that's happening when every book creeps up (beastmen actually don't look too crazy to me at this point though).

So basically you've got an army that has a (somewhat deserved) reputation for being overpowered, but can't measure up to the current power lists.


Of all the things you listed only the hydras breath weapon scares my power gaming vampire list. Seriously the Vargulf isn't work taking, that ''magic defence'' you listed doesn't bother me. Daemons damn horror unit spam still has the best anti magic and I win allot of games vs very very hard daemon armies. Vampires arn't as faceroll as they once were but trust me they can still bring the beat down on any army.

maze ironheart
03-03-2010, 09:35
I aggree vampires are not overpowered I've always seen them as a strong army to fight I have just begun work on my vampire army.