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kendaop
02-03-2010, 15:55
when GW finally releases codices (yes, this is correct spelling) for each race? Let's assume they release a codex for each major race before moving to 6th edition. Do you think they will go ahead and create 6th edition, just so they can begin re-doing all of the codices again? Or, do you think they will begin re-doing them anyway, even though they've all been updated? Do you think something else will happen?

MadHatter
02-03-2010, 15:59
well assuming this ever happen as you are hoping, I would like to see a new race. But I am sure they would begin doing it all over again. because that is the cycle of GW.

taffeh
02-03-2010, 16:06
the world will end cause this is unlikely to happen? Not meant to be negative but look at previous editions.

My want is a redone DA codex or proper FAQ before 6th. I very much doubt this...

Kurgash
02-03-2010, 16:10
I doubt they will fully update all the books before thinking of releasing 6th. You know some kind expansion series will be released like apoc or planetstrike, thus pushing the schedules back. And finally when the last book is maybe getting released Marines will cut the line again for their 6th ed release. Probably won't happen till about 2013ish or who know but at the rate of releases who knows.

sigur
02-03-2010, 16:11
GW don't redo codices (:yes: for correct spelling to you by the way. :) ) one after another with the aim to have them all redone at some point. It's an ever ongoing circle in no specific order.

kendaop
02-03-2010, 16:16
I understand this is VERY unlikely to actually happen, but what if it did? What would GW do next?

sigur
02-03-2010, 16:20
It can, by definition, not happen. Why do you think it could, did you have a look at the codex release history of the past 11 years? One codex is released after the other. At what point do you think you could draw a line and declare all codices have been redone anyway? The situation you describe is impossible to happen.

MadHatter
02-03-2010, 16:44
It can, by definition, not happen. Why do you think it could, did you have a look at the codex release history of the past 11 years? One codex is released after the other. At what point do you think you could draw a line and declare all codices have been redone anyway? The situation you describe is impossible to happen.

Nothing is impossible. though i agree with your thought process. But he is just throwing it out there; what if the universe stopped and for once GW did what it was suppose to.

kendaop
02-03-2010, 16:54
It can, by definition, not happen. Why do you think it could, did you have a look at the codex release history of the past 11 years? One codex is released after the other. At what point do you think you could draw a line and declare all codices have been redone anyway? The situation you describe is impossible to happen.

What are you talking about? Once all of the major races have a new codex, specifically designed for 5th edition, then it will have happened. I don't understand why you think it physically cannot happen.

Corrode
02-03-2010, 18:05
I understand this is VERY unlikely to actually happen, but what if it did? What would GW do next?

If third edition is anything to go by (it is), they'll start on releasing newer versions of old codices and adding new races/factions (some of which will end up not getting supported as they're concepts which only gain traction when there's nothing better to do; hi Inqusition and Necrons).

wazatdingder
02-03-2010, 18:14
Resurrect the Squats!!! Provide good online support!!! Bring back bit orders!!! Make White Dwarf worth the price!!!:eek:

You tease, you tease:cries:

Lord Malorne
02-03-2010, 18:20
Resurrect the Squats!!! Provide good online support!!! Bring back bit orders!!! Make White Dwarf worth the price!!!:eek:

You tease, you tease:cries:

Not worth it, not worth it, certainly not worth it, if only.

There you go :).

Lord of Worms
02-03-2010, 18:28
I would like to see a total reboot. The current cycle of codices in combination with the dreadful 5th ed rules means every new codex needs more and more patches to make it work, and just as when they "get it right" with the army itself (in a bubble of course) it ends up drastically more powerful than every other army. This whole edition was a massive failure, and a complete ****-fest.

EmperorEternalXIX
02-03-2010, 18:30
Actually it's entirely possible that maybe this go around they have focused on the Codex releases and haven't been developing 6th edition in any ongoing ways. After all, we're pretty deep into the cycle, and around this time in 4th ed we started seeing Codex releases referring to rules that weren't in the game yet (defensive grenades, etc).

I bet 6th edition's development will take place entirely during the last cycle when there are only like 2 or 3 codex releases left to update, and they will supplement income with special boxes and expansions or fantasy releases in the meantime.


I would like to see a total reboot. The current cycle of codices in combination with the dreadful 5th ed rules means every new codex needs more and more patches to make it work, and just as when they "get it right" with the army itself (in a bubble of course) it ends up drastically more powerful than every other army. This whole edition was a massive failure, and a complete ****-fest.I can't even begin to extoll how incredibly wrong this sentiment is.

Lord of Worms
02-03-2010, 18:32
I bet 6th edition's development will take place entirely during the last cycle when there are only like 2 or 3 codex releases left to update, and they will supplement income with special boxes and expansions or fantasy releases in the meantime.

It`s getting there soon, if they weren`t already thinking about the next edition by now, then there is literally no hope.



I can't even begin to extoll how incredibly wrong this sentiment is.
Then don`t try, you may hurt yourself.;)

But seriously, although a few concepts in 5th were logical progressions of 4th and 3.5, they tried to change too much. Half of the drastic changes introduced were artificial mechanics in order to balance out the "whiz-bang" features of TLOS.
TLOS giving an unfair advantage to shooty armies? Just tack on super-modifiers to the morale test for losing combat. Don`t have to take morale tests? TOO FREAKING BAD! Now they`ll drag you down anyway, making marines and chaos marines even less survivable . Yes, this "balances" assault and shooting.:rolleyes:

...wait, shooting`s still too good? Oh crap, what do we do now? Give everybody a 4+ cover save! (I bet this was Mat Ward`s idea) This of course makes marines and meq`s significantly crappier, relatively speaking by mitigating the weaknesses of other armies. Solution...Thunderwolf cavalry, speshul-roolz as long as your arm, Vulkan HeStan and Marneus Calgar. :rolleyes:

Now the door`s wide open for AP3 weapons, since armour doesnt really matter anymore anyway.

Infantry should be able to kill vehicles... lets give everybody krak grenades and let them hit rear armour automatically! Two games later they change the vehicle damage chart due to the uselessness of vehicles at 6" or closer.

Vehicles are too powerful because of the damage chart? Well, we`ll just introduce a lower threshold for defensive weapons, making every vehicle a pill box. (Except for recent armies that ignore this obviously bunk and demented retrogression, because clearly Leman Russes should be more maneuverable than Predators:rolleyes: ).

Our target demographic too dumb to use a calculator? Kill Points.

|end rant|

Do people remember back when a chaplain was a big deal because he had WS5, a power weapon and an invulnerable save? That`s all it took. :wtf:
Every successive release is more and more idiotic. They need to get their act together.

Kurgash
02-03-2010, 19:03
I liked 3rd ed. Was fun, simple and easy to understand. Things died, people fought, ran, got chased after. It was exciting.

4th came along with the target priorities and sweeping advances and 'vehicle penned? BAIL OUT!' shenanigans. It's mildly taxing watching zerkers bail out every turn of shooting.

5th rolls up...and basically just says 'let's make it, simple, stupid and where you can twist every rule into something it's not. While we're at it, let's write books that give obscure rulings, half-arsed intentions and twistable logic!

MadHatter
02-03-2010, 19:06
Resurrect the Squats!!! Provide good online support!!! Bring back bit orders!!! Make White Dwarf worth the price!!!:eek:

You tease, you tease:cries:

If squats would make you happy, then sure you can have them.
White Dwarf would be nice if it was worth the 10 bucks.
Well I think good online support would be nice to have too.
And Getting the Bitz orders back so i can totally customize my armies would be really nice. So i vote for this one.

Lord of Worms
02-03-2010, 19:07
4th came along with the target priorities and sweeping advances and 'vehicle penned? BAIL OUT!' shenanigans. It's mildly taxing watching zerkers bail out every turn of shooting.


That was typical GW overreaction to the incredibly cheap BA rhino-rush of 3rd ed. If they took 4th and basically just house-ruled it with common sense solutions that crop up after playing the game for a few months they would have had a perfect game.

Corrode
02-03-2010, 19:42
Then don`t try, you may hurt yourself.;)

But seriously, although a few concepts in 5th were logical progressions of 4th and 3.5, they tried to change too much. Half of the drastic changes introduced were artificial mechanics in order to balance out the "whiz-bang" features of TLOS.
TLOS giving an unfair advantage to shooty armies? Just tack on super-modifiers to the morale test for losing combat. Don`t have to take morale tests? TOO FREAKING BAD! Now they`ll drag you down anyway, making marines and chaos marines even less survivable . Yes, this "balances" assault and shooting.:rolleyes:

...wait, shooting`s still too good? Oh crap, what do we do now? Give everybody a 4+ cover save! (I bet this was Mat Ward`s idea) This of course makes marines and meq`s significantly crappier, relatively speaking by mitigating the weaknesses of other armies. Solution...Thunderwolf cavalry, speshul-roolz as long as your arm, Vulkan HeStan and Marneus Calgar. :rolleyes:

Now the door`s wide open for AP3 weapons, since armour doesnt really matter anymore anyway.

Infantry should be able to kill vehicles... lets give everybody krak grenades and let them hit rear armour automatically! Two games later they change the vehicle damage chart due to the uselessness of vehicles at 6" or closer.

Vehicles are too powerful because of the damage chart? Well, we`ll just introduce a lower threshold for defensive weapons, making every vehicle a pill box. (Except for recent armies that ignore this obviously bunk and demented retrogression, because clearly Leman Russes should be more maneuverable than Predators:rolleyes: ).

Our target demographic too dumb to use a calculator? Kill Points.

|end rant|

Do people remember back when a chaplain was a big deal because he had WS5, a power weapon and an invulnerable save? That`s all it took. :wtf:
Every successive release is more and more idiotic. They need to get their act together.

I don't think there was a single thing in this post with which I agreed. Actually there was; defensive weapons should be S5 or scrapped altogether and replaced with BS modifiers for moving. That was it, though.

Lord of Worms
02-03-2010, 19:49
So kill points, TLOS, 4+cover on everything, useless tanks and Vulkan have honestly improved your gameplay experience? I enjoyed myself way more when AP3 was a big deal, and when marines didn`t have to cower in their rhinos to get sh1t done.

I stand by my original position that if they tweaked the 4th ed transport rules to make a mechanized list viable, it would be much better. Now, mechanized lists are virtually necessary due to their hamfisted overreactions.

MadHatter
02-03-2010, 19:55
So kill points, TLOS, 4+cover on everything, useless tanks and Vulkan have honestly improved your gameplay experience? I enjoyed myself way more when AP3 was a big deal, and when marines didn`t have to cower in their rhinos to get sh1t done.

I stand by my original position that if they tweaked the 4th ed transport rules to make a mechanized list viable, it would be much better. Now, mechanized lists are virtually necessary due to their hamfisted overreactions.

I like 4th alot better, and I would agree these just needed common sense solutions. now you do not even need to worry about armor save as your opponent own army is going to give you a 4+ save.

Corrode
02-03-2010, 20:10
So kill points, TLOS, 4+cover on everything, useless tanks and Vulkan have honestly improved your gameplay experience? I enjoyed myself way more when AP3 was a big deal, and when marines didn`t have to cower in their rhinos to get sh1t done.

I stand by my original position that if they tweaked the 4th ed transport rules to make a mechanized list viable, it would be much better. Now, mechanized lists are virtually necessary due to their hamfisted overreactions.

Kill Points are a wash for me; they can be stupid as hell but I've yet to play a game where I've honestly felt that the result came down to a quirk of the KPs and didn't reflect the actual events of the game. They can be unintuitive, but I find most of the reactions on these boards to very 'sky is falling' about them which isn't, in my experience, justified.

TLOS is great. It's the system I've always used (I skipped 4th) and the 4th ed. rules for 'you can see my models but not really' don't strike me as any more intuitive, especially misapplied as they often apparently were.

4+ cover on everything simply isn't as true as people like to represent it. Those in my gaming group are mature enough to agree that a feature might not be worth a 4+ save, though, and we use a good amount of terrain without slathering the board in it, so maybe that's just us. Even in those cases where neither of us have felt like going through the terrain piece by piece and just gone '**** it, 4+ for everything' I've not had my experience terribly cheapened by doing so. It certainly doesn't feel like I never get benefit out of high AP weapons.

I've already agreed that defensive weapons needs 'reworking' to put it charitably, but I don't think tanks are as neutered as some would claim - that said, see my qualifier at the end.

AP3 doesn't bother me. Sternguard can get it (with Gets Hot!, which when rapid-firing for a squad of 5-10 models can get nasty quickly), Thousand Sons get it (but they're expensive and they suck), there's a few weapons with random AP which will have it half the time (and a lot of them are either on platforms which suck, like Flash Gitz, or can be countered like the PBS). The main offender in this regard is the Imperial Guard, but if anyone's going to have a lot of bloody great guns that turn Marines into paste it's them. Besides which, the vaunted 4+ cover (or staying in the Rhino) helps ;)

Vulkan is another wash. The gimmick is a little trite (ohlol the best two weapons in this edition are twin-linked and I make rock-solid TH/SS Termies even more rock-solid), and Vulkan himself is undercosted (a friend and I worked out his gear to cost 190pts on its own, never mind the fact that he carries 3 weapons (the 3++ being essentially a storm shield effect)), but the real problem with that particular character is scaling and at 1500pts it just isn't all that apparent. The guy I know who uses him is a very good player, but to be honest it's his Vindicators that do all the heavy lifting, not Vulkan.

A lot of your points seem to centre around what you apparently regard as a 'weakening' of MEQ, and I really don't think that's true. Space Marines haven't had a good Codex since I've been playing, and the current one is certainly better than 3rd or 4th, but Space Wolves and CSM are both pretty strong and BA look set to continue the trend.

To put some of my points into perspective, my armies as of right now are Orks and Space Marines (from the vanilla 'dex, you can probably guess the Chapter). Orks of course enjoy the proliferation of cover saves, though benefit little from true LoS (it's hard to hide 30 Orks), don't really care about tanks, and Kill Points are a wash because an Ork list (even ones which aren't Nob Bikers) can have relatively few kill points in it whilst having plenty of stuff. As far as Marines go I don't tend to run Predators - I have MM/HF Speeders and Vindicators as my main vehicles, and I've recently taken to running an LRC (which doesn't care much for defensive weapon rules since it can move 6" and fire to full effect, and has Machine Spirit to deal with cruising speed). I imagine that if I were playing an army which cared more about firing multiple weapons on the move I might be more annoyed by the restrictions on tanks, but they've affected me relatively little even if they're one of the things I'd change given the opportunity.

Sunfang
02-03-2010, 21:21
Corrode, well said.

Ive been playing since 3rd and read a lot on here but rarely comment at all on anything.

I guess I would like to see GW slow their development cycle a year or two. Allow themselves some breathing room in between editions and really think about what they want to implement in ongoing editions. As it is now it seems they are hustle and bustle just to release codices for future implementation of a new release. It gets annoying.

As far as the current edition being a wash...hardly. As usual the extremes come out on these boards but I find for the most part things are just fine in 40k land.

The things more or less that **** me off are lack of bitz sales for army customization. Things like standard armorment not being sold in the box, i.e. dreadnought comes base with a multi-melta...no multi-melta in the box... so I have to find/buy the full box. Finding a thunderhammer for an assault squad has become a laborious task. The fact that wraithgaurd are still metal instead of a plastic 5-man box.

The shift to special characters based armies, especially marines makes me want to vomit. Although I know the trait system was flawed...whats happened now is the suck.

I dont know, its the small things.

Lord of Worms
02-03-2010, 21:55
4+ cover on everything simply isn't as true as people like to represent it. Those in my gaming group are mature enough to agree that a feature might not be worth a 4+ save, though, and we use a good amount of terrain without slathering the board in it, so maybe that's just us. Even in those cases where neither of us have felt like going through the terrain piece by piece and just gone '**** it, 4+ for everything' I've not had my experience terribly cheapened by doing so. It certainly doesn't feel like I never get benefit out of high AP weapons.


The problem with the rules as they stand is that they aren`t very tweakable. Something seemingly minor, like changing the cover rules has drastic consequences due to the plethora of uber-killy weapon options. Thousand sons used to be tolerable, until everything you pay for is rendered useless by the cover saves. This is my point. AP3 doesn`t matter (which is why they gave them to storm troopers), nor do invulnerable saves which is why they are thrown around like candy. This is why they made Storm Shields so good, because invulnerable saves only matter in cc. This is wrong. Your bog-standard marine is worse than useless, and the squads are now just melta-gun and PW delivery systems. AP3 and invulnerable saves used to mean something, now they don`t matter at all. Giving Terminators a 5++ save was the difference between a crappy unit, and a good unit. "Wow! The whole unit has an invulnerable save!" Now people are complaining that because a chaplain can only have 2 wounds and BS 4 he`s "nerfed".:rolleyes:


A lot of your points seem to centre around what you apparently regard as a 'weakening' of MEQ, and I really don't think that's true. Space Marines haven't had a good Codex since I've been playing, and the current one is certainly better than 3rd or 4th, but Space Wolves and CSM are both pretty strong and BA look set to continue the trend

My complaints about MEQ were just examples off the top of my head of how convoluted and counter-intuitive the whole mess is.
The only thing that makes any builds from those lists any good are a patchwork of "speshul-r00lz" that need to be applied so that they have any chance in the current ruleset. With their meddling with the prices and vehicle rules, you would be a total fool not to play mech. This in turn is the primary cause of the proliferation of Vulkan lists. I never meant to say this, or any other "power build" is unbeatable, but it`s obnoxious and results in an annoying game environment where everything is about "meta", with the actual game as a formality.

If you compare this endless cycle of frustration to playing EPIC, you`ll see what I mean. I didn`t believe it at first but it`s true. Every list has a dozen possible builds that are each unique and equally fun....and the "all-comers" list is no holy grail. A good, balanced army is just that, a good balanced army. The actual game itself changes from turn to turn and actually rewards sound tactical thinking, not gamey mechanics. Unless you actually don`t know how to play, no list or build is intrinsically superior but each has a style that you need to develop an affinity for.


I might be more annoyed by the restrictions on tanks, but they've affected me relatively little even if they're one of the things I'd change given the opportunity. I agree. They realize how stupid the rule is, so every codex released "post-epiphany" has rules that ignore it. Fast vehicles ignore it (basically), Land Raiders (except Chaos) ignore it, Leman Russ ignores it. :wtf:


I`m sorry if I come off adversarial when discussing 40k, it just fills me with disgust at how much of a bloated mess it became.

Project2501
02-03-2010, 22:02
If third edition is anything to go by (it is), they'll start on releasing newer versions of old codices and adding new races/factions (some of which will end up not getting supported as they're concepts which only gain traction when there's nothing better to do; hi Inqusition and Necrons).


I concur.

I am biased though as I would also like for this to happen again. I hope GW takes a breather and does some housekeeping/fun projects before jumping into changing it allagain, especially as it would give them a better idea as to what to do for the next edition(s).

Corrode
02-03-2010, 23:31
The problem with the rules as they stand is that they aren`t very tweakable. Something seemingly minor, like changing the cover rules has drastic consequences due to the plethora of uber-killy weapon options. Thousand sons used to be tolerable, until everything you pay for is rendered useless by the cover saves. This is my point. AP3 doesn`t matter (which is why they gave them to storm troopers), nor do invulnerable saves which is why they are thrown around like candy. This is why they made Storm Shields so good, because invulnerable saves only matter in cc. This is wrong. Your bog-standard marine is worse than useless, and the squads are now just melta-gun and PW delivery systems. AP3 and invulnerable saves used to mean something, now they don`t matter at all. Giving Terminators a 5++ save was the difference between a crappy unit, and a good unit. "Wow! The whole unit has an invulnerable save!" Now people are complaining that because a chaplain can only have 2 wounds and BS 4 he`s "nerfed".:rolleyes:

I think GW have recognised this somewhat with the growing number of template and blast weapons which ignore cover. I mean, in some ways it can be viewed as a band-aid again - 'oh ****, cover's too powerful, let's put things in which ignore cover!' It does play into the perception that 40k isn't so much a rules set as a list of exceptions, and in this instance there's some truth in that. That said, I think there's something to be said for using the right tool for the right job - ignore cover rounds for digging out Orks, AP3 for taking out MEQ (or even just reducing them to a cover save), incinerators to mess up everyone's day. The problem to my mind lies in uneven distribution - a lot of newer codices (5th Space Marines onward) have some form of ignore-cover ability, but a lot of the older ones don't.


My complaints about MEQ were just examples off the top of my head of how convoluted and counter-intuitive the whole mess is.
The only thing that makes any builds from those lists any good are a patchwork of "speshul-r00lz" that need to be applied so that they have any chance in the current ruleset.

I don't think that's entirely true. Let's take Space Wolves as an example - they have ATSKNF, Acute Senses and Counter-Attack. ATSKNF has been unchanged since 3rd edition, and Acute Senses and Counter-Attack are both USRs - one of which is basically just for flavour and has a marginal in-game effect. One of the really solid Wolf builds at the moment is Mech Grey Hunters - bog-standard infantry with zero special rules above the army-wide ones. The option of dual special weapons, and the close combat weapon (possibly the most basic piece of gear in the game) added to the bolter/bolt pistol load out make them a solid choice which can handle itself in all situations. It can be adapted to a number of different roles, handle itself in pretty much all situations, and do so without any reliance at all on any special rules not found in the base 40k rulebook.

CSM are much the same to my mind - even if we take the Lash/Plague/Oblit power-list, you have Daemon Princes (which have a single special rule, Eternal Warrior, which is a USR and which makes plenty of sense on them), Plague Marines (one USR, Feel No Pain, and admittedly a squad-unique rule in having T4 (5)) and Obliterators (which are, at their core, Terminators with multiple weapons). Besides the Obliterators it's not a list that relies on special rules at all - in fact, it barely uses any. Lash doesn't count - psychic powers are abilities, and although again unevenly distributed (psychic defence in particular being hilariously uneven) it's just another power; psychic powers are supposed to do things which aren't just 'shoot that dude lots of times' (we have guns for that!). It's even a relatively simple mechanic - move some dudes the distance on the dice.

Now, that's not to say that there aren't places in both codices (well, in Space Wolves, anyway) that aren't chock-full of special rules, many of which serve only to patch up holes in the original rule set. But ascribing all the power of a 'dex to the special rules contained therein is possibly a little short-sighted.


With their meddling with the prices and vehicle rules, you would be a total fool not to play mech. This in turn is the primary cause of the proliferation of Vulkan lists. I never meant to say this, or any other "power build" is unbeatable, but it`s obnoxious and results in an annoying game environment where everything is about "meta", with the actual game as a formality.

I think this is an area where we're going to have to agree to disagree. Personally I think the proliferation of mech is a good thing - it's 40k, there's walkers the size of city blocks, the basic infantryman shouldn't be wandering around with his **** hanging out his trousers. This is particularly true of small, elite armies which value the lives of their troops - noticeably, the Imperial Guard (where the human wave is still relatively acceptable) can run a workable human wave, which sits fine with me. Cheap transports suit my image of the game 'as it should be played'.


If you compare this endless cycle of frustration to playing EPIC, you`ll see what I mean. I didn`t believe it at first but it`s true. Every list has a dozen possible builds that are each unique and equally fun....and the "all-comers" list is no holy grail. A good, balanced army is just that, a good balanced army. The actual game itself changes from turn to turn and actually rewards sound tactical thinking, not gamey mechanics. Unless you actually don`t know how to play, no list or build is intrinsically superior but each has a style that you need to develop an affinity for.

Yeah, Epic is a game which is often brought up in these kinds of comparisons. It's easy to see why - it's a clear, easy to use ruleset, which is much more internally consistent than 40k, and it's much more about tactics than army-building. I don't think 40k necessarily needs to be the same kind of game as Epic, but it would definitely benefit from the slimmed-down, comprehensive rules set.


I agree. They realize how stupid the rule is, so every codex released "post-epiphany" has rules that ignore it. Fast vehicles ignore it (basically), Land Raiders (except Chaos) ignore it, Leman Russ ignores it. :wtf:

Actually the Russ is mostly about ignoring the damn stupid 'Ordnance means you can't fire anything else!' rule. The tank would be unusable otherwise. Even then, if you take sponsons you're sacrificing half your weapons every time you move, and if you do want to move and forego firing entirely then you're at randomised movement (which seems to work against moving the tank even more so than the usual restrictions).



I`m sorry if I come off adversarial when discussing 40k, it just fills me with disgust at how much of a bloated mess it became.

I think some of your argument is a little hyperbolic, but there's some fair points in there. I'm personally happy with the game, but I know a few people would much prefer it to be something else and I can see why - I wouldn't be opposed to a game that felt much the same but had much more comprehensive and clear-cut base rules.

Lord of Worms
02-03-2010, 23:49
I think this is an area where we're going to have to agree to disagree. Personally I think the proliferation of mech is a good thing - it's 40k, there's walkers the size of city blocks, the basic infantryman shouldn't be wandering around with his **** hanging out his trousers. This is particularly true of small, elite armies which value the lives of their troops - noticeably, the Imperial Guard (where the human wave is still relatively acceptable) can run a workable human wave, which sits fine with me. Cheap transports suit my image of the game 'as it should be played'.


I think that mech is a good thing too, don`t get me wrong, but they made it too tempting. As a reaction to people not using it in 4th they both made them significantly cheaper, made vehicles more resilient in general, AND removed every disadvantage to transported units. It`s slightly OT, but IRL APCs are often seen as deathtraps whenever dealing with anything other than small-arms fire. As it stands right now there are basically no consequences for being in a rhino that gets blown up, it`s just an ablative 35 point LOS-blocker that anybody who owns one will take every time. That means that everybody else has to take things to deal with that, because there is every reasonable expectation of having to deal with it at a tourney (for example). This effectively makes about 15-25% of your army choices for you straight off the bat. If you don`t have fast-melta, you will lose. I don`t like that, it needs to be toned down, which is exactly why Vulkan is popular. He`s what appears to be a niche character that actually turns out to be an ideal choice practically 100% of the time.

I don`t really want to discuss the CSM list, it`s just going to **** me off and I`ll start raving again.


I think GW have recognised this somewhat with the growing number of template and blast weapons which ignore cover. I mean, in some ways it can be viewed as a band-aid again - 'oh ****, cover's too powerful, let's put things in which ignore cover!' It does play into the perception that 40k isn't so much a rules set as a list of exceptions, and in this instance there's some truth in that.

Exactly. This is why I stopped playing Magic:The Gathering in Junior High. Every time I look at the 5th Ed rulebook I think of MTG. (shudder)

Corrode
03-03-2010, 12:34
I think that mech is a good thing too, don`t get me wrong, but they made it too tempting. As a reaction to people not using it in 4th they both made them significantly cheaper, made vehicles more resilient in general, AND removed every disadvantage to transported units. It`s slightly OT, but IRL APCs are often seen as deathtraps whenever dealing with anything other than small-arms fire. As it stands right now there are basically no consequences for being in a rhino that gets blown up, it`s just an ablative 35 point LOS-blocker that anybody who owns one will take every time. That means that everybody else has to take things to deal with that, because there is every reasonable expectation of having to deal with it at a tourney (for example). This effectively makes about 15-25% of your army choices for you straight off the bat. If you don`t have fast-melta, you will lose. I don`t like that, it needs to be toned down, which is exactly why Vulkan is popular. He`s what appears to be a niche character that actually turns out to be an ideal choice practically 100% of the time.

I think there's something of a disconnect between APCs now and APCs in the future - the only real APC in the game is the Rhino, and for the Marines riding in it it's less of a death trap than getting out. Even if the vehicle explodes, it has about the same effect as if a Marine punched himself in the face - and even then a Marine is wearing a tank anyway, so it's not like he's struggling to survive a small explosion. Compare that to the krak missile which blew up the Rhino hitting the Marine in the face instead, and you can see why he feels safer sitting it out in the Rhino firing pot-shots at things. In real life, of course, if you're in a tank that gets destroyed you're likely to die a violent death, but the Marine is odds on to survive.

That said, I would much prefer it if the Razorback (a proper IFV, though not as good as the Chimera) were the main transport for Marines, and Rhinos largely retired. Never going to happen, but one can dream.

I don't actually think lots of fast melta is necessary for popping transport spam, though. Fast melta is a response to the amount of AV13 and particularly AV14 showing up - Land Raiders are actually worth taking now, for example. The reason that Vulkan lists feature so much is that melta works just fine against AV10-12 too, and Vulkan himself buffs them so heavily - and they suit the playstyle of a Marine army, too. The other weapon which has gained in prominence recently is the autocannon, which is a more direct response to the proliferation of Rhinos and particularly Chimeras - Rifleman dreadnoughts, Guard infantry squads with autocannons (or lascannon-list-of-doom), ACLC Predators are all much more direct responses to the rise of the transports than melta is.

Whether or not that makes it any better is up to how strongly you feel about transport dominance and its effect on the game, of course.


Exactly. This is why I stopped playing Magic:The Gathering in Junior High. Every time I look at the 5th Ed rulebook I think of MTG. (shudder)

I would love to see the rules more carefully written and a number of the exceptions covered more clearly. Whether that will happen or not is up to the studio, though.

Luxem
03-03-2010, 12:40
What if they released the new DE and Inquisiton Codices? I assume 2012 happened and a great spiritual change took place.