View Full Version : High Elves question?

03-03-2010, 03:48
I m going to put more investment on my high elves army, I do not know what should I get White Lion/ Sword master/ Phoenix Guard? Swordmasters have higher weapon skill, less str than white lion but they are more atk. On the other hand, phoenix guards they can cause fear and ward save 4+. I really do not know what should I pick?What do you guys think about silver helm and Dragon princes? I think silver hem are better. One more question, what do you guys think about dragon mage? I think he can be get killed so easy and enemy can steal the dragon, if the lord lose the duel.

Dark Apostle197
03-03-2010, 04:08
Definitely should post what you already own to get better answers. Swordmasters and Phoenix Gaurd are generally a safe bet unless you want all cav. For the extra points, Dragon Princes are definitely better than Silver Helms.

03-03-2010, 04:22
I do have 15 sword master and 15 white lion atm. I do have 3 squad of silver helm and 3 bow throwers and 3 squad of bowman. I also have 6 dragon princes atm and4 archmage. I m not so sure about the dragon mage, because they are large target. Should I get Tyrion and Teclis.

03-03-2010, 04:24
Dragon Princes are definitely superior to silver helms. Higher weapon skill, 1 more attack, immune to fire based attacks and the chance to take a banner up to 50pts.

Phoenix Guard are an excellent tarpit, heavy armor, 4+save, either immune to fear or cause fear not sure which, high weapon skill and leadership. White Lions are good in that small units can move through woods, 3+ save to shooting, strength 4, can really get into position for flank attacks. Swordmasters are good for just dishing out alot of strength 5 attacks hitting just about everything on 3s, Weapon skill 6 I believe. But again it all depends on what you have and what you're playing style is.

For games less than 3000pts, people will not field a dragon mage because he doesn't give +1 to dispel, is limited to lore of fire spells, can be easily killed and rides the weakest dragon all for over 400pts.

03-03-2010, 04:43
8 man squad for dragon princes, do you guys think it is good enough. Because on my Bret , I always use lance formation. So ,I do not know 8 man is better or 10 man is better.

The talking Squirell
03-03-2010, 05:02
swordmasters all the way, i never leave home without them, seriously ask anyone who has played against high elves and they will tell you swordmasters are their worst enemy, i dare say they're the best unit high elves have, 14 SM in two ranks will dish out 15 S5 at ASF, u cant tell me thats not good.
HOWEVER with that being said, WL and PG don't have their uses, WL are excellent cavarlry killers with an average of 6 str6 ASF attacks and with a 4+ save against shooting they're pretty durable, much more so then SM which are always shot down. PH as mentioned before are excellent tarpits which causes fear as well, but generally they dont do that well IMO, but against vamp count or hard hitting Choas they're pretty good at holding up a unit.

As for SH or DP, i like DP more, they look cooler and they're very hard hitting, suit them up with the battle standard with teh battle banner and they will plow through anything, though they are very expensive, SH while good just dont cut it for me, i'd rather another unit of spearmen.

And finally dont go for the dragon mage, they suck, the dragon doesnt do much and the mage sucks, just go for a normal mounted mage. A prince on star dragon however is a whole new stroy, i mean the high elves have the best dragon available, you might as well use it

03-03-2010, 07:17
I have been in a similar situation as you, bombevil.

I'm quite new to High Elves and can see reason in grabbing all 3 of our special units, I like them all differently and just can't seem to decide...

As far as I can tell...it's simply a matter of:

a. Personal Preference
b. Type of Army
c. How you want to play your army

If you're interesting in all out attacks and offensive strikes, it would make sense to lean towards Swordmasters, Chariots and Dragon Princes (yes, they are superior to Silver Helms, no doubt there) Keep in mind that Sword masters are a glass cannon - they go down fairly easily as they have no special defensive bonus's like WL or PG. If they get shot down before they reach their target (and it seems to happen quite often) you might find yourself quite dissapointed...

If you're interested in playing a defensive game, say one involving a lot of magic, you might run Phoenix Guards - the 4+ ward save is pretty fantastic and they could certainly defend a banner of sorcery along with a high level mage such as Teclis.

White Lions are my personal favorite as I like their lore (personal) but they are certainly very nice tank units. They are hard-ish to kill and hit hard-ish, as well. Remember that not only are they woodsman but they are stubborn, too. Quite nice. With their higher strength than most elves they are certainly not the worst unit to kill with, either.

I suggest getting them all at some point so you can play different lists, different styles, etc. That's what I'm doing...at least.

Good luck and I'm sure you'll get a lot more comments soon.

Desert Rain
03-03-2010, 16:15
First of: Dragon Princes >> Silver Helms

Which elite choice you take depends on your own play style, and what the rest of the army looks like. My favourite is the Swordmasters because of the huge amounts of damage they can dish out and the psychological effect they have on your opponents. Since I like to play aggressively they fit with my playing style as well.

I like white lions as well because of the stubborn rule and high strength. I use them as an anvil against enemy elites to hold them in place so I can deal with them.

Phoenix Guard, while they have lovely models, don't really fit into my army since the role they play are already taken by spears and white lions in my list. Therefore they would be redundant and I would be lacking in damage output.

So it really depends mostly on how you want to play the game and what you need in your list, and obviously on what models you like!

04-03-2010, 12:32
if you have to choose definatly swordmasters, as someone said earlyer if you ask anyone who takes them on they hate them, masses of st5 attacks and the vunrability can be easily solved by raising your shields of saphery (your going to have at least on mage, you would be a fool not to use high magic, you always get thay spell)

and i go for sliver helms as they are cheaper than dragon princes and use them in 5's as an annoyance and archer killing unit, if you want to take on enemy line fighting or elite units your swordmasters do the job better than any mounted unit high elves get

04-03-2010, 13:36
I think he can be get killed so easy and enemy can steal the dragon, if the lord lose the duel.

If the rider is killed, the enemy cannot "steal" the monstous mount...unless its a house-rule you use?

Btu regardless of the the Dragon Mage is a pretty poor choice as he's not a brilliant caster, nor a great fighter. You'd be better of with an Archmage, support wizard and a noble.

As others have said, Dragon Princes own Silver Helms any day of the week. It was different in the old book when SH were core, but nowadays there's very little use for them unless your going for a variety of cavalry.

An eagle or two in the army is always useful, so that would be my main suggestion.

04-03-2010, 15:47
and i go for sliver helms as they are cheaper than dragon princes and use them in 5's as an annoyance and archer killing unit

Why wouldn't you use Dragon Princes as an army killing unit? They have 1 additional attack and are beefier overall for not that many points additional... I really don't see how anyone can justify the use of Silver Helms over Dragon Princes and almost feel like since everyone owns them (because they were a core at one point) they justify them, still. Am I wrong?

05-03-2010, 00:06
I' am also a beginng player to H.E and warhammer in general (not a noob at any rate

though, as I seemingly beat the "norms" at the workshop with eazzzzzeee and

would say I'm acquaited enough to throw in my two cents) however, my take of the H.E

the units you have listed; obtaining S.M is a must.

Its almost mandatory to take

them in games 1,500 and over and debatable but almost a lock for under that.

Regarding S.H against D.P, I have yet to win a combat sucessfully with my D.P's -whether

they are flanking some flaggants or charging chaos knights (its been 5 games just

waiting for the first time they do! :D). I know and understand enough that D.P are in spite are

more elite, and the better option of the two (5 D.P naked 150, 5 S.H: shields, F.C 155). To me

the only time S.H are a viable option and have worked are in games 1,250 and under,

and even then this is debatable as I find a W.L chariot can do the samething only with

impact hits and more manuverablility than the S.H, and at a cheaper cost!

In essence, if you are looking at whats better thats my opinion. In spite of this looking at

what you have if I were you I would pick up Greater Eagles (2 of them) and a chariot

box as I find eagles one of three expendble things in a H.E book and not to mention the

Eagles is a phenominal M.B, warmachine crew hunter and C.R raiser (put him into a flank

and watch you win by +1, watch as the bestigors flee, panicking ungors and then the

gors next to the ungors and lastly a unit of minotaurs all off the board within two turns.

Well fun for you anyway! :D )

*side note. . . how do you put on a sig? i cannot find the upc for the life of me! X)

05-03-2010, 02:24
Top left corner of the forums, Control Panel, left hand side...edit signature :)

05-03-2010, 11:57
haha yer it is probably all of us who own silver helms because they used to be cheap core cav. i would probably go with dragon pronces if i could afford some (especially as you now need less core units and can have more special)

Desert Rain
05-03-2010, 17:28
I converted my dragon princes from silver helms simply by giving them cloaks and more impressive helmets. You can see pics in my paint log, link in my signature.
Most people would probably allow you to use silver helms as proxies for dragon princes anyway.

06-03-2010, 00:10
I sprung for them only not suffered the whole Silver Helm change, I can understand why others wouldn't want to. GW just bending you over, yet again.

07-03-2010, 06:53
1) Dragon Mages are worthless. If you're bringing a dragon, put a Prince on it.
2) Dragon Princes are MUCH better than Silver Helms this edition. SH used to be great when they were core. Run the DP in 2 units of 5 or 6.
3) Why not have all three? Each of them have some huge strengths and some weaknesses you have to account for:

White Lions - Stubborn, S6, 3+save against shooting, woodsmen.
Phoenix Guard - 4+ ward save, cause Fear.
SwordMasters - TONS of attacks, worst save.

Currently my favorite way to run them is to have 14 Phoenix Guard with Banner of Sorcery and my Archmage supported by 10 Swordmasters with musician. Then 14 White Lions with Lion Standard, my Noble and 5 Dragon Princes with Banner of Ellarion supporting them. Send the Lions and DB after the big nasty dragon/HPA/other terror causing monstrosity and they'll take care of them. And since both can move through woods with no penalty, there's nowhere to hide!

I've tried using larger blocks of Swordmasters in the past and everyone sends all of their magic/shooting at them and they hardly make it across the table. the WL and PG are much more resiliant to shooting, so they tend to work better as the larger blocks. Try using 7-10 SM as support units to your larger blocks. Enemies will still respect them, but be far more worried about your larger blocks.

Do you have any spearmen? It's not a bad idea to have a block of them for some relatively cheap SCR. Also Eagles are quite good and you should have a few of them as well. You'll find a good mix of throwers/eagles for any opponent. One other fun unit is a group of 5-7 Shadow Warriors. Scouts who hate everyone are fun. They clean up war machines and lone mages nicely.

08-03-2010, 13:30
Dragon Princes have always been my cavalry of choice (even when I didn't play high elves I advised my brother to get Princes back in 4th edition).

Dragon Mages are hard to use. Yes, the mage is fragile, but the Dragon can really dominate a section of the battle. Even if it does very little, it may keep a large amount of the enemy's forces busy, allowing everything else to do a tonne of damage (the metric tonne is about 200 lbs more than the imperial ton, so I'll stick with my country's 'official' form of measurement).

Ah, the Elites. So many choices and no solid answers. For those who talk of swordmasters as the almighty fighters, I've seen a single unit of Night Goblins deal with a unit shot up unit of Swordmasters (there were 7 left when they entered fighting range) and a full unit of Phoenix Guard.

Still, Swordmasters are my choice. Just be aware that anything that weakens their abilty to fight, such as Nets, largely strips their greatest advantage. Also, I would think that a small unit (the earlier suggested 7-10) would just be a more tempting target to shoot up as they will die off that much faster, leaving a gap in the battle line. (I love playing Devil's Advocate)

Now, some added insight, I've found that a Prince on foot with a great weapon and the Talisman of Loec is an excellent way to turn any fight around. Always Stike First, WS 7, S 6, A 4, reroll to hit, to wound, and enemy must reroll successful saves. The way it's worded, it's also possible for him to get a 'second' use out of it if you can have him pursue/overrun into another existing fight in that phase. I pulled it off once, the effects were devastating. Just be aware that this can be a suicide move as he will lose a wound. He can also work well in any unit. I tend to use him either in a unit of spearmen (Armour of Caledor and either the Vambraces of Defence or Bow of the Seafarer) or Shadow Warriors (Shadow armour + Bow or the Seafarer).

11-03-2010, 01:36
I pair my units of swordmasters (6 wide, 2 deep) with a unit of lothern seaguard. The LSG deploy with a wide frontage with the SMs behind them and the turn before the enemy charges, the LSG reform into ranks and expose the SMs for a counter/flank charge.

I also like the Phoenix Guard to anchor the center of my line - with so many fear-causing armies out there, it's good to have a dependable anvil. I've not personally made a lot of use of White Lions, but have seen them well-used in tourneys so I think that's mostly a matter of style. Personally, the 2 attacks per model for the SMs give me the odds-confidence I want in my ASF hitter; there's not much SCR in a 2-rank unit so kills are vital to winning the melee.

11-03-2010, 02:19
As an opponent of high elves, my recommendation is for white lions. But again, all the units work so its up to you.
White lions- very resistant to shooting (trundling through woods for cover and 3+ vs shooting is great), hit very hard having ASF great weapons with S6, and WS5 hits most anything on 3+, THEN they're stubborn. Swordsmasters I've killed in droves, I don't think I've ever killed a unit of white lions.