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View Full Version : help choosing army: skaven vs. orc



skullkandy
03-03-2010, 18:44
I am just starting warhammer and have basically settled on warriors of chaos (although lizardmen are trying to pull me that way because they look like they have more flexability in making an army list instead of just always having the exact same thing)

I've also convinced one of my 40k friends to join in on warhammer with me as well. He's having trouble deciding on an army as well and since I'm new I don't really have any advice to offer.

He likes hord armies.

1. Hord armies in warhammer to me look a lot more HORD than 40k, as in a hord army in 40k has a lot less models than a hord army in fantasy, is this true?

2. How much more expensive are hord armies in warhammer, do the larger number of models in a box make up for the fact that you need more models or do they cost a ton more than the non hords anyway?

3. The two armies he's looking at are orcs and skaven because like me he doesn't like playing humanish armies, any opinions either way?

4. Can stomrvermin replace clanrats? as in could you have an entire army that used stormvermin as their main infantry blocks and not take a single unit of clanrats in order to go slightly more towards elite than hord?

He likes both model ranges equally so most of the decision comes down to $$$ since we're both in sales and the economy is killing our commissions and competativeness because we're planning on going to some of the smaller tournaments at our LGS that is about 50% dark elf players.

martinmshine
03-03-2010, 18:56
1) I think fantasy is alot more horde like than 40K. My orc 2000 point army has 100-150 models.
2) The price depends on what kind of horde you use, a box of night goblins cost 18 (i dont know about dollars) and only 100points. While orc big uns can be 300 points. I don't know enough about 40K to know about its pricing.

3)ORCS! You can get a pretty good set if you but BFSP with lots of night gobbos. It depends what you want, skaven have crazy magic and machines, while orcs have crazy troops and monsters. His choice.

4)I don't have a clue!

Hope I have helped :)

Malorian
03-03-2010, 19:06
1. Horde armies in fantasy come close to 200+ models. Horde 40k rarely gets anywhere near that although it is possible with guard, nids, and orks.

2. If you want plain core then it can be very cheap. If your friend like golbins (part of orcs) then you should look at all the models you get in the starter set.

3. Both are great but as a new player I'd suggest he starts with skaven. Dont' get me wrong orcs are a ton of fun but can be frustrating when you are just learning the game. And the skaven army box can get your a horde fairly quickly (buy two boxes) whereas the orc army box has non-horde elements like a chariot and fast cav.

4. I think you can but I wouldn't suggest it anyway. Much like big'uns for the orcs you only seem them in the armies of people that are trying to have fun or are new.

Pacorko
03-03-2010, 19:11
1.- Horde armies in WHFB are really big--150+ models at 2000 points, in most cases. So, I'd say yes, they tend to be bigger in size compared to typical 40K ones.

2.- Depends on where you buy your stuff, but it's a safe bet you are going to spend a bit more on your fantasy armies as you need more models. That said, the Skaven batallion box still is a pretty nice deal, and they are a diverse and effective Horde army.

3.- Well, stand-alone Orcs are tough, but a bit limited--taht may change by May, probably. Mixed with Gobbos, they make for a fun army to play, although not a "tourney winner" one. Skaven are pretty solid, have nice models, nothing is too over-the-top in terms of rules, and they have lots of nice war-machines. The ratmen would be my choice if I were your friend.

4.- As a matter of modelling, I don't see why not. In game terms, it's valid as per Army Builder parametres--I don't have the book with me right now.

Yet, I don't think that is an intelligent choice (money and game-wise). Having a "more elite" army, takes out the need to have a horde for a horde's reason is that lacking enough, highly-especialized troops (i.e.: Stormvermin), it compensates with sheer numbers. Besides, the cost of the Storvemin kit would make it a little prohibitive to field 4+ units, and then you'd only get 80 (20 per box) ratmen with LD 5 (and 8 if you field them 5x4)... I'm not too sure that would work too well against other armies with cav or heavy on the war machine department.

That's all I can tell you right now, as I need to get back to work, but I hope that helps.

LiamTaylor
03-03-2010, 19:12
4. Yes you definately can replace the clanrats with stormvermin but I cant see why you would want to for every unit, 1 or 2 quite possibly.

Consiidering you want it to be fairly competitive I would go for Skaven because Orcs in their current state arn't that competitive (read: at all) for the new players, skaven are much easier to pick up in my opinion

Liam

skullkandy
03-03-2010, 19:41
thanks for all the info guys. I'll pass this along.

while I've got people posting here and without making a whole new thread. Convince me to stick with my warriors of chaos instead of switching to lizardmen.

I keep hearing that warriors of chaos have one list. You take knights of chaos, knights of chaos, and more knights of chaos or you lose hilariously. but damn their models are sexy. That sounds really boring and lizardmen sound like they have a lot more flexability in building lists (which is half the fun for me in 40k) but again....damn chaos are sexy.

minionboy
03-03-2010, 19:51
Both Skaven and Orcs are good choices for horde armies, it just depends on your personal style.

Skaven lack cavalry, and don't have the tough infantry that orcs have, while O&G lack the crazy war machines that skaven get. Both armies have access to cheap, expendable troops and both have a fair bit of randomness.

I personally love my night goblin army and part of what makes me love orcs is that you can have heavily themed armies if you like.

Olyphant
03-03-2010, 20:08
The main difference is how the horde armies are, skaven won't fail a vital charge due to animosity, while orcs won't blow themselves up as much. Another difference is the miscast chart for magic which is horrific for o'n'g I hate facing a WoC army with the puppet :(

I started with o'n'g and switched to skaven recently cause if i blow up my own troops i'm still doing the killing :D rather than standing there to be on the recieving end of a charge

skullkandy
03-03-2010, 20:16
The main difference is how the horde armies are, skaven won't fail a vital charge due to animosity, while orcs won't blow themselves up as much. Another difference is the miscast chart for magic which is horrific for o'n'g I hate facing a WoC army with the puppet :(

I started with o'n'g and switched to skaven recently cause if i blow up my own troops i'm still doing the killing :D rather than standing there to be on the recieving end of a charge

hahah, that's a great way to look at it.

outbreak
03-03-2010, 20:24
I love my skaven, they can do magic lists, shooty lists, sneaky lists, combat lists, monster lists whatever. I didn't find them too expensive, 2 battalions and some gnobblars/bfsp night gobbos/whatevers lying around for slaves can give a decent starting force. Add in another box of clannies and he can run 3x30 clanrats, 30 plaugue monks, 4 rat ogres (or as i did convert 2 and a chariot into a hellpit abomination), 6 censer bearers (very easy conversion from the monks), and a couple of giant rat units with all the left over rats on sprues. Add in 3-4 slave units if he can find the bfsp models cheap and there's a decent start to his army just needing to have its rares and characters (which can easily be converted) fleshed out.

Malorian
03-03-2010, 20:56
while I've got people posting here and without making a whole new thread. Convince me to stick with my warriors of chaos instead of switching to lizardmen.

Lizardmen have just as many builds as warriors of chaos.

Just like you see many WoC armies just ahve a bunch of knights, much LM armies just are cookie cutter versions of:

slann in temple guard
engine of the gods
spear saurus
skinks to fill in needed core
terradons
salamander


If you think the warriors of chaos look 'sexy' then stay with them. If you are getting bored then try out some of the less popular units and spice things up.

Or, better yet, play both armies :D

skullkandy
03-03-2010, 21:46
Lizardmen have just as many builds as warriors of chaos.

Just like you see many WoC armies just ahve a bunch of knights, much LM armies just are cookie cutter versions of:

slann in temple guard
engine of the gods
spear saurus
skinks to fill in needed core
terradons
salamander


If you think the warriors of chaos look 'sexy' then stay with them. If you are getting bored then try out some of the less popular units and spice things up.

Or, better yet, play both armies :D

well I can't be bored yet because I haven't started playing. I bought some beastmen a couple months ago because i love the minis and wanted to paint them. The new beastmen book came out and even being the noob I am I instantly noticed that everything is overpriced and they got crapped on by being the only army that doesn't either have high leadership or some sort of tools for managing low leadership.
Beastmen basically got treated as a hord army, minus psychology managing tools, and minus the cheap cost of hord armies.
....but that's enough whining and crying from me.

So I'm going to use the gors I got as marauders at the brilliant advice of another forum poster here. I just slightly entertained the idea of lizardmen because I heard chaos was an army with one single list and no real deviations from it. although I guess in the GW game lines that's pretty much par for every army in every game.

Malorian
03-03-2010, 21:53
Now wait a second, if that's why you 'think' you should be dropping beastmen then you should rethink it.

A lot of old timer beastmen players may have been upset about the changes but they are still a great army.

Between the ultra cheap and effect throw-away units in the form of the hounds and ungor raiders, along with the super hard hitting units you have a hell of an army.

Leadership is fixed by a Ld 9 beastlord, and if you like the look of the regular gors there is no reason why you can't smash your opponents with them rather than minotaurs. You'll need to set up flank attacks but with your cheap throw-away units that's pretty easy.


So really, if you like the look of beastmen then by all means give tham a go first before converting them over to another army.


If you like the look of both armies... play both :D

outbreak
03-03-2010, 22:32
I thought the new beast book is quite powerful (not top tier but competetive), my gripe is that it seems abit more generic and everything from models, rules, fluff seems to have changed slightly too much for my liking.

Zarroc
04-03-2010, 10:45
Skaven, enough said

mrtn
04-03-2010, 12:44
skullkandy, don't give up on the beastmen, they're so cute! Oh, and deadly, of course. If you want some more beastmen info check out the Herdstone forum (link in my sig). Since even some old beastmen generals have problems agreeing on how powerful the new book is, maybe you shouldn't dismiss it immediately if you're just starting out? :)

As for your friend, may I suggest that he play skaven with a lot of goblin slaves? It's common to use the BfSP night goblins as skaven slaves in a skaven army, I've done this, and it's a nice change from painting skaven, while you can still tie them in with the colour of their clothes and such.

Condottiere
04-03-2010, 13:37
They're only cute if you model them as furries, but their rules/tactics, at least under the old edition, were rather interesting.

Stuffburger
04-03-2010, 14:49
If it comes down to strictly a monetary decision then it's possible to build an O&G horde for substantially less than a skaven horde- if you're willing to use starter box guys from 6th and 7th editions. They're mostly one piece but are pretty easy to convert with a $8 jewler's saw, and you can always get some spare arms from eBay for cheap to change out weapons.

As for WoC vs. LM, it's probably true that cavalry spam is the most effective build but also true most armies only have 1 really powerful build, then several good builds and then plenty of mediocre ones. Try out a monster horde (w/ throgg), infantry horde, all marauders and chariot heavy for some variety. I would agree LM have more variation though.

Pacorko
04-03-2010, 21:51
Try out a monster horde (w/ throgg), infantry horde, all marauders and chariot heavy for some variety. I would agree LM have more variation though.

Or if you can, try and collect enough WoC to try them all. I did, and the Old Fluff (StD, L&D) apart I didn't like Chaos that much in all previous editions ruleswise.

Now, I kind have a soft spot for them, and they look incredible in a "horde" config with 20 Chaos Knights on Chaos steeds, 20 on "manticores" (for variety and conversion-fun purposes only, don't panic) made with old Cold One bodies, leftover Ogre heads, some metal spikey bitz and greenstuff manes... I call them Kaozmassu. Then, I have 30 Marauder riders, 60 Chaos Wariors, 80 marauders 10 Chaos trolls (with a converted Throgg), 16 furies and 20 hounds.

I've yet to paint/repaint half of it, but when I tallied all my recent buys and what I already had... they looked impressive on the table, and I got everything for under 500 bucks!

I'm pretty sure that if you and your friend hunt for bargains here or on ebay, you can get your "hordes" that will give you plenty of options and hours of fun paiting them. Then, comes the gaming time! :D

All in all, as pointed out by Stuffburger there's plenty of options in all armies. If you aren't too inclined to get just "efficient competitive builds", you can do almost anything with your chosen army and enjoy all the matches you play.

ChaosVC
05-03-2010, 00:08
Rumours says there will be a new orc army....anyway, to be on the safe side, if he love hamsters and mouse, he can try the rat hordes and play skavens.