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Eternus
04-03-2010, 09:54
I have been thinking about trying a small Campaign at my local club - we have about 8/9 Fantasy players, and I don't think they've ever played a campaign there before. They are all for me setting this thing up, but they now want to combine a Campaign with some kind of Tournament!

It's gonna be really hard to have everyone play everyone else like our 40K Tournament we did last year and still have a cohesive back story that doesn't seem completely random and contrived, so I've been trying to come up with a few ideas.

How about if we have 8 players, 4 Order and 4 Disorder -

Round 1 - the armies of Order and Disorder engage each other in a huge battle, the battlefield itself streching over miles of front, so what we have is 4 separate battles. Each group of generals must decide where each army will be placed in the extended line - Left Wing, Centre Left, Centre Right and Right Wing, each portion fighting on a different battlefield. If we have a map as well, we could have each location with differing terrain themes, like a heavily wooded battlefield good for skirmishers etc, a clear battlefield good for shooting, one with buildings dotted about good for protecting cavalry from shooting, etc. They will not know their opponents organisation until after they have commited to their own, so once both armies have been organised, people will find out what army they will be facing.

Battles are fought as per standard pitched battle and victory conditions.

Round 2 - The remnants of the armies from round 1 are joined together to fight in a larger battle -

-Units wiped out in the first battle do not take part.
-Characters killed in the first battle do not take part, or maybe take part on a roll of 4+ but on just 1 wound.

-Core Units that survived the first battle take part at full strength, because Core units are easy to replace losses for.
-Special Units that survived take part at either their strength at the end of the 1st battle or at half strength, whichever is higher. They will not be increased back to full strength because they are harder to replace losses for than Core units.
-Rare units start at the same strength as they ended the 1st battle on - they do not regain any strength, because they are almost impossible to replace, hence 'Rare'.

-Characters that survived the first battle take part at 1 wound higher than they finished the 1st battle on, as they regain some strength.

Hopefully this will give us two workable though unusually constructed armies, one evil and one goody two shoes. The only way it will be one sided is if all the armies on one side get slaughtered in the first battle. We don't want too many units to survive the first Round because we don't want huge armies in Round 2.

The remenants of the two Centre portions of each side start on the table, the two wings start off the table as flankers/reserves, so the two armies on the wings would do well to be more mobile than the the Central armies.

After Round 2, the team that win the big battle are the winners of the Campaign. In order to judge who is the overall Champion, we can use a Championship Points system:


Every enemy Lord worth 151 points or more killed - 3 points

Every enemy Lord worth 150 points or less killed - 2 points

Every enemy Hero worth 101 points or more killed - 2 points

Every enemy Hero worth 100 points or less killed - 1 points

Enemy General is worth 1 extra point if killed

Enemy Battle Standard is worth 1 extra point if killed or captured


Core Unit worth 151 points or more wiped out - 2 point

Core Unit worth 150 points or less wiped out - 1 point


Special Units worth:

0-100 points - 1 point
101-200 - 2 points
201+ - 3 points

Rare Units worth:

0-100 points - 2 points
101-200 - 3 points
201+ - 4 points

Points are totalled for each player during both rounds and at the end of Round 2, the player who has accrued the most points is the overall winner.

The idea of the points scoring system is to make people go all out to destroy the enemy rather than sneak a minor win, because you might win the battle, but you won't be Champion unless you get stuck in. Equally, you don't want to risk your army unnecessarily in the first battle, because you will make your side struggle in Round 2. Also, people who have more Core units will have less Championship Points to give away in the first place, so people have to decide whether to be balanced or go all out on Special and Rare units that will give away lots of points if they get killed.

Probably needs tweaking, but what do you think?

Condottiere
04-03-2010, 11:22
Sounds good. I may have missed it, but how many points do the armies cost?

Eternus
04-03-2010, 11:40
Sounds good. I may have missed it, but how many points do the armies cost?

You didn't miss it, I didn't put it in - it depends on how much time and space you have for the big battle in round two, because if there are 4 Order armies and 4 Disorder armies and no unit gets entirely wiped out in Round 1, then potentially you could get 4 complete armies per side in the big battle.

I reckon most armies will lose around half to two thirds of their force wiped out in the first game, or maybe even more! So if the armies in Round 1 are 2000 points, then I expect the big battle to be around 2500-3500 points per side, with plenty of Core units, and not enough uber characters or units to dominate the battle given that there are 8 separate armies on the field, but having flanking forces should make it interesting.

Also, armies could target certain units in the first round so that the combined armies won't have to deal with them in the big battle. Imagine if a WoC army manages to get Marauder Horsemen into the rear of a Dwarf or Empire army and take out the artillery in the first battle - no big boom guns in the big battle!

If you have a really big battlefield for the 2nd battle, then the starting armies could be bigger than 2000 points.

Gromdal
04-03-2010, 11:41
Stuff like this is why warhammer is a fun game.

Condottiere
04-03-2010, 13:35
I love the strategic aspect, not something you get to experience much in one off games, but can be demoralizing if something major happens either due to bad luck or carelessness.

N810
04-03-2010, 14:03
Wow this sound like great fun,
do you know what armies will be participating ?

Stuffburger
04-03-2010, 14:27
Sounds like a pretty good plan, but I'm a little concerned about how you are going to carry over special units at half strength. I'm picturing a bunch of 2-3 strong cavalry units, warmachines with 1 crew and unusably small units of infantry looking more like a warbands game.

Maybe tally up the surviving points of special troops and they can re-buy their specials with that amount, or half of what they originally had, whichever is greater? Probably best to keep it restricted to specials that were present in the first game. The same thing could work for rare too.

EDIT: Whoops, missed the "survived" part somehow... Makes more sense now :( Most of the units would be in pretty good shape if they survived the first battle anyways, that or gone.

Are you counting units that fled as survivors or gone?

Eternus
04-03-2010, 15:25
Wow this sound like great fun,
do you know what armies will be participating ?

We will probably be looking at using:

1 Warriors of Chaos Army
1 Skaven Army
1 Vampire Counts Army
1 Dark Elf Army

1 High Elf Army
1 Dwarf Army
1 Bretonnian Army

Not sure exactly what the final armies will be, but this is what I'm expecting.


Sounds like a pretty good plan, but I'm a little concerned about how you are going to carry over special units at half strength. I'm picturing a bunch of 2-3 strong cavalry units, warmachines with 1 crew and unusably small units of infantry looking more like a warbands game.

Maybe tally up the surviving points of special troops and they can re-buy their specials with that amount, or half of what they originally had, whichever is greater? Probably best to keep it restricted to specials that were present in the first game. The same thing could work for rare too.

EDIT: Whoops, missed the "survived" part somehow... Makes more sense now :( Most of the units would be in pretty good shape if they survived the first battle anyways, that or gone.

Are you counting units that fled as survivors or gone?

Fled counts as survived, but I may decide to impose a -1 Ld on units that fled the battlefield in Round 1 during the Round 2 battle. Also, the turn on which the Flanking forces arrive may depend on their points composition -

All flanking forces start rolling for reserves on turn 2, arriving that turn on 4+, but they get -1 if they are more than 50% infantry/immobile warmachines, no modifier if they are at least 50% mounted and +1 if they are more than 75% mounted/6"+, but an additional +1 if they won their first battle and -1 if they lost to represent a defeated army having to be reformed and reorganised before they can move and a victorious army being well organised and in high spirits after their win, or something similar to make army selection and the deployment of the various forces even more of a consideration.

TheSil
05-03-2010, 08:51
sounds fun!

so to get this straight (because I have thought about similar scenarios as well)
discounting possible penalties, the following would survive a battle:

- troops that successfully flee off the table
- troops that were removed due to fleeing through impassable terrain etc
- troops that end the game fleeing

and the following would lead to a complete loss:

- troops that were removed due to fleeing through enemy troops
- troops that flee and get run down by enemy forces
- heroes that end up in a unit that fled and got run down by the enemy (they don't really "die" right?)

is this about your plan so far?

of course you could always give run down troops a chance to come back later (at half strength, with a leadership tests etc.) or make unlucky heroes survive with half wounds unless wounded directly in the battle
also removal due to moving through the enemy could be treated more lightly than being run down by them

but I guess in your situation its better if not too many units survive
and in a lot of games not many units do...

Eternus
05-03-2010, 10:47
sounds fun!

so to get this straight (because I have thought about similar scenarios as well)
discounting possible penalties, the following would survive a battle:

- troops that successfully flee off the table
- troops that were removed due to fleeing through impassable terrain etc
- troops that end the game fleeing

and the following would lead to a complete loss:

- troops that were removed due to fleeing through enemy troops
- troops that flee and get run down by enemy forces
- heroes that end up in a unit that fled and got run down by the enemy (they don't really "die" right?)

is this about your plan so far?

of course you could always give run down troops a chance to come back later (at half strength, with a leadership tests etc.) or make unlucky heroes survive with half wounds unless wounded directly in the battle
also removal due to moving through the enemy could be treated more lightly than being run down by them

but I guess in your situation its better if not too many units survive
and in a lot of games not many units do...

I was thinking of this:

- any unit/model that successfully flees off the table - Survive, but -1Ld during next battle

- troops that were removed due to fleeing through impassable terrain etc - don't these count as destroyed?

- troops that end the game fleeing - Survive

- troops that were removed due to fleeing through enemy troops - Destroyed

- troops that flee and get run down by enemy forces - Destroyed

- heroes that end up in a unit that fled and got run down by the enemy - Destroyed

The idea is that the end battle should be large, but not too big to complete in a session, so if I plan for the armies to lose about 50%-75% of their starting list in Round 1, then this should give reasonable armies for Round 2.

I have been considering having a 3rd Round, which would become round 1 before the first battle - is would be a smaller battle where the vanguard of each army meets the enemy vanguard in a prelude to the first large battles.

The vanguards facing each other would be a separate list from the armies that will fight in the first proper battle, probably about 750 points, and the winners would have successfully scouted the enemy force and the area they are going to meet for their first proper battle - this would then allow the winner of this first game to choose either:

- Whether to move first or second in the following battle

or

- To move up to 3 peices of scenery after deciding table edge and before deployment

or

- To allow an additional unit to flank in the battle, which would be start rolling for reserves at the start of turn 2, 4+, 3+ etc

The Vanguards are then 'absorbed' into the main list for the first battle. Thoughts?

TheSil
05-03-2010, 11:48
- troops that were removed due to fleeing through impassable terrain etc - don't these count as destroyed?

well technicly yes, in the same way as fled units count as "destroyed" I'd say

There is no logical reason why running into a big rock would destroy a whole unit - ok if they would literally run into the rock at full speed, but that's not what they are supposed to do
If I remember correctly it was mentioned that they "spread in all directions" or "find a place to hide until the battle is over" so nothing prevents them from reuniting after the battle



The vanguard idea sounds fun too
do they also suffer from attrition? I wouldn't let them do so, otherwise the losses in the initial conflict might become more relevant than the suggested boni

Eternus
05-03-2010, 12:10
well technicly yes, in the same way as fled units count as "destroyed" I'd say

There is no logical reason why running into a big rock would destroy a whole unit - ok if they would literally run into the rock at full speed, but that's not what they are supposed to do
If I remember correctly it was mentioned that they "spread in all directions" or "find a place to hide until the battle is over" so nothing prevents them from reuniting after the battle

The vanguard idea sounds fun too
do they also suffer from attrition? I wouldn't let them do so, otherwise the losses in the initial conflict might become more relevant than the suggested boni

I'll check through the description for fleeing into impassable terrain etc - if it says they scatter, than I'll treat is as if they'd fled off the table.

The vanguard will not suffer attrition - they are additional to the main list and are just used for the initial encounter. The point of playing this first game is to gain the bonus for the second game, which then affects the third game through casualties and when flanking reserves arrive.

TheSil
05-03-2010, 12:22
That's what I meant, sounds fine to me

all three options are meaningful and have a reasonable impact on the game (maybe you could add "... and the opponent has to start with deployment" to the first option, but that's only marginal)