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Revelations
05-03-2010, 19:36
Having seen the "confirmed" information on the Blood Angels Codex is seems my (and many other's) suspicions are continually being confirmed by GW. The updates to Imperial armies are hands down better than their previous incarnations while the Xenos armies are 'question raisers' to put it one way (Deffrollas, Flash Gitz, Doom-M, Pyrovore, etc).

The trend of "nerd-rage" threads also seem to support the Codex changes with every update. People happy/unhappy about Chaos Nerfs and Marine Buffs. People excited about IG but don't know what to think with Nids. Wolves being broken good, Daemons being broken functionally. Etc.

One doesn't need to make a very well educated prediction on the next few Codex releases... BA will rock, DE will be good because they haven't been updated in forever but won't rock, BT will rock, Necrons will be good because they haven't been updated in forever but won't rock, DA will rock, Chaos will get "fixed" again, 6th Ed will come around crippling/invalidating most Xenos armies with marginally affecting Marine armies.

If the pattern in history wasn't so obvious I'd be laughing more while writing this post. But there are few instances where the norm above has been broken (Orks, possibly due to the pt technicallity and the last DA update).

At what point would you draw the line? Would you call it quits? What will you do if your Codex update comes up subpar? What will you do when right before and right after your enemies Codex comes up outstanding? Are you even suprised anymore by the updates? Do you agree or disagree with this trend? Will you simply explain it away as obvious since SM sell the most while ignoring the obvious self fulfilling prophecy? Is there another trend you have witnessed?

Cpt_Baughan
05-03-2010, 20:01
I personally haven't noticed any particular trend towards the length of time since a codex has been updated and its potency, I think a trend is more give or take that each successive codex is suffering from a case of one-upmanship to attract people to buy that force.

I have also of course noticed a trend towards Imperial armies in terms of both rules and models which create the self fulfilling prophecy you quite righted pointed out. It isn’t that Imperial armies just have better rules its that each set of rules improve the strength of a force and Imperial armies are updated so frequently.

In terms of when will I draw the line – I would never give up because of rules, they are a guide line and I play with similar minded people so just alter rules. The more important issue however is if G/W don’t start turning out quality models for more than the top 3 selling races, then it will seriously damage the amount I spend and collect by the end of 2010.

SPYDER68
05-03-2010, 20:07
You cant go by what people say on forums.. its not even half the 40k players..

Wolves are far from broken..
Nibs can be very competetive..

The whole chaos thing is many years old now.
Base marines arent that good, the are a bit above average..
Daemons are what they were meant to be... they dropped the ball, but it could have been worse.

I play nids.. i love the new book, and ive had very good success with the army unlike others are crying about.

Id even go as far as saying not even 1/100 of the 40k players go to these forums.

Olja
05-03-2010, 20:18
Space Marines get most of the attention because they sell more. I sure the staff at GW aren't saying to themselves "Lets make Space Marines even better, and we will screw other races." They are trying to make money. And they make money by selling models people want to buy. If the rules for the models are poor or worthless in the game, few models are sold.

Until the latest codex, IG was the worst army in the game. Other writers just couldn't get it right. The Nid codex is fine, it is just different from past writings so may take some time for players to found out what works. Other xeno races will get theirs eventually. Will GW do a good job? they will try, but they are human and will blunder now and then.

Cpt_Baughan
05-03-2010, 20:26
Space Marines get most of the attention because they sell more

I quite agree that Space Marines sell more and always will they are quality, but are you honestly saying that you fail to see that G/W would loose out on large elements of the xenos market if they continued the trend, lets see how well marines sell when there are only marines left to play (I use that huge exaggeration to emphasise a point rather than it being a real possibility)


You cant go by what people say on forums.. its not even half the 40k players..

Well I wouldnít be surprised in the slightest if most players didnít go on these forums thatís not the point, when you conduct a survey you typically donít ask every affected person, you take a sample and I believe Warseer is a reasonable sample of the more serious hobbyists. A condition of the human psyche however is moaning, therefore you should never discredit the opinions of the masses on forums but take it with a large pinch of salt.

I do agree however that the codices of Space Marines, Space Wolves, Imperial Guard and probably soon Blood Angels are not notable more potent than Orks or Tyranids considering its not a perfect system.

puppetmaster24
05-03-2010, 20:35
i play cron's. my book cannot get much worse.

But if it gets too overpowered i may change my army to whatever i feel like at the time.

SPYDER68
05-03-2010, 20:57
I quite agree that Space Marines sell more and always will they are quality, but are you honestly saying that you fail to see that G/W would loose out on large elements of the xenos market if they continued the trend, lets see how well marines sell when there are only marines left to play (I use that huge exaggeration to emphasise a point rather than it being a real possibility)



Well I wouldnít be surprised in the slightest if most players didnít go on these forums thatís not the point, when you conduct a survey you typically donít ask every affected person, you take a sample and I believe Warseer is a reasonable sample of the more serious hobbyists. A condition of the human psyche however is moaning, therefore you should never discredit the opinions of the masses on forums but take it with a large pinch of salt.

I do agree however that the codices of Space Marines, Space Wolves, Imperial Guard and probably soon Blood Angels are not notable more potent than Orks or Tyranids considering its not a perfect system.

When you say more serious im assuming you mean competetive players.

Which i would say no.. it seems rather the opposite here.. most players are more so non competetive players compared to mostly competetive players

Project2501
05-03-2010, 21:04
I honestly feel one of the problems people lies with the decision to give certain SM chapters their own codex. If they would just put them all in one codex (like the salamanders/white scars/chaos legions in the 3.5 CSM dex) they would have more time/people to work on the rss of the armies.

I also feel that GW should allow us to buy bitz again. This will help (in general really) alleviate the lack of certain special models for any particular SM chapter whenever the SM codex comes out. Then just hype individual chapters when the new rangefor them is about to come out.

As for leaving them game because of any of this, I wouldn't truly stop playing, but i'd be ever more judicious in what I get and continue to question some decisions made.

Olja
05-03-2010, 21:15
I quite agree that Space Marines sell more and always will they are quality, but are you honestly saying that you fail to see that G/W would loose out on large elements of the xenos market if they continued the trend, lets see how well marines sell when there are only marines left to play (I use that huge exaggeration to emphasise a point rather than it being a real possibility)
.

Guys who state " I only play <insert Xeno army here> and if my codex isn't updated I'll quit!" exist but are only a small part of the market. A lot of people who make the above statement will continue to play albiet with less interest. In fact, most players I know own several armies. Wargaming minis are kinda like crack. I don't think GW is losing that much of the market when xeno releases are slow.

Now with that in mind, GW wants to sell as many models as they can. Logisticaly, they can only produce new models so fast. With Space Marines they already have a base to work with. A Space Wolf bolter dosen't look that different from a Ultra Marines bolter. A gauss flayer looks a lot different than a bolter. So it is less difficult to make models and new codex for a Marine style army. On top of that, Space Marines tend to sell so GW can expect to make the money invested in the project back.

On personal note, I don't play Space Marines. I play IG. I would like to see a diversity of forces out there. I like fighting Nids and Orks because they are easier to kill with my Griffon and lasguns. :D

carldooley
05-03-2010, 21:23
They are trying to make money. And they make money by selling models people want to buy. If the rules for the models are poor or worthless in the game, few models are sold.

this is why we can reliably expect the 'nid FAQ to come out about 2 months after the Doom's model. Everyone will flock to buy the broken model, and then GW will come along and nerf the Doom of Malan'tai.

azimaith
05-03-2010, 22:08
Every GW codex comes out with steaming piles because they don't seriously playtest anything (the alternative is so much worse.)

SM have the vanguard and legion (I actually sort of like the thunderfire.)
Orks have flashgitz.
Guard have Commissars, Punishers, Lord Commissars, Every special upgrade character, storm troopers, and rough riders.
Tyranids have pyrovores, venomthropes, lictors, flying rippers/rippers, and carnifex plus special characters outside of the swarm lord.
(Take a note that the tyranid codex and the IG codex both have a high number of "what the hell?!" units compared to others, the IG codex just buries it under a ton more choices. The shotgun effect so to speak.)

Eldar have shining spears, probably more.
Tau have vespid, pathfinders, and the sky ray.
Necrons have flayed ones, the Nightbringer, and Pariahs.
Sisters have Repentia.
There are more armies and crap but I think the point is clear.
GW has a long history of putting out retarded crap and the most developed armies tend to avoid suffering badly because they have many units thus they provide a competitive codex via the shotgun effect. Armies with a fewer choices tend to be harder hit.

tuebor
05-03-2010, 22:10
Updates seem to be going the way they have since I started playing (mid 3rd edition) so I imagine things will go the way they always have.

NagashTheSorcerer
05-03-2010, 22:24
The updates to Imperial armies are hands down better than their previous incarnations while the Xenos armies are 'question raisers' to put it one way

Well, I think that really only applies to Space Marines, and not the whole Imperium. Up until this last codex, Imperial Guard were far from being "hands down better" then any xenos army, and Sisters of Battle and the Inquisition have not had codex updates for nearly 8 years.

As for why Space Marines get special treatment, well, that should be obvious enough. From day one of Rogue Trader, Space Marines have been the fan favorite. They have become identified with 40k in a way that no other army has. I remember there being something in the introduction for Vol I of Index Astartes about "Big men with big guns in power armor are a classic staple of science fiction." If you look at military themed sci-fi media, that archetype is ever-present, from Starship Troopers (the book) to Aliens to 40k to Starcraft to Halo to Gears of War and, most recently, Avatar. With that said, 40k marines stand out a bit more because of the distinctiveness of the 40k universe, and the whole idea of the Dark Ages in Space. Not many other space marine archetypes combine the big guy in power armor with the themes of medieval knights and religious warrior orders (or viking werewolves, as is the case for Space Wolves :D)

And Space Marines are really no better then any other army. The are, however, easier for beginners to pick up and play, due to a combination of a good variety of options, a good balance between close combat and long range, and the fact that even basic marines are tough as nails. In the grand scheme of the game though, there are plenty of armies that can out fight, out shoot and out number SM.

Ultimately, I think SM have become the standard for all other 40k armies, in the sense that most armies can be described by their strengths and weaknesses relative to SM. That is not really a bad thing, per se, but it does mean that at a beginners level, SM spam will be the order of the day. But then again, it has been that way since 1987.....

Lord of Worms
05-03-2010, 22:49
What I don`t like is how they have taken everything to new heights of OTT stupidity. The game is becoming more and more "hero-hammer" like in 2nd Ed with characters having ludicrous stats and costing half your points allotment. While I like that characters can define your army in place of traits or doctrines, I really don`t like how cartoony and childish this has become. Aesthetically, the design of newer armies and model lines do nothing to make 40k look less geeky and childish to non-40k players. It`s worse than it`s ever been. The video-game industry has evolved itself to become a respected part of the mainstream for the most part. So have comics and "graphic novels". However, the bigwigs and Studio at GW seem to have an overriding mission statement to deliberately alienate anybody over the age of 16, and wreck the IP.

If I played Space Wolves, and had a character named Canis Wolf-Born riding a giant wolf on display in my living room cabinet , I would be embarrassed to have people over. People mock the "red period" of the mid nineties... I honestly fail to see how the current trend is any better. Sanguinor? Are you serious? Does Mephiston really need to have better stats than a freaking daemon prince three times his size?

Codex-creep is no longer even an issue of game balance. Sensible mechanics have nothing to do with 40k and haven`t for a while. The joy of it was the aesthetics and using your imagination to envision your lovingly crafted guys fighting your opponent`s equally lovingly crafted guys. Win or lose, it was fun to watch the nice looking models running around killing each other. Now, if I see a squad of overdone Werewolf-cultist Space Vikings riding giant wolves on the other side of the battlefield, the magic is gone due to the tasteless in-your-face nightmare that is the modern codex. In this specific case, I don`t care if they are the most powerful unit in the game or the weakest, my imagination can`t stretch far enough to find it cool.

Although personally I am dissatisfied with the current CSM codex, I have no small measure of apprehension as to what monstrosity Matt Ward and co. will foist upon us next.

Sunfang
05-03-2010, 22:59
What I don`t like is how they have taken everything to new heights of OTT stupidity. The game is becoming more and more "hero-hammer" like in 2nd Ed with characters having ludicrous stats and costing half your points allotment. While I like that characters can define your army in place of traits or doctrines, I really don`t like how cartoony and childish this has become. Aesthetically, the design of newer armies and model lines do nothing to make 40k look less geeky and childish to non-40k players. It`s worse than it`s ever been. The video-game industry has evolved itself to become a respected part of the mainstream for the most part. So have comics and "graphic novels". However, the bigwigs and Studio at GW seem to have an overriding mission statement to deliberately alienate anybody over the age of 16, and wreck the IP.


This...in a galaxy of countless billions, Calgar shows up for every skirmish and Yariel leads all Eldar on the front lines. Some how Vulkan lends his strength to every one wishing to use a melta/flamer and Abbadon has to exist in a million places at once.

I miss doctrines/traits, even if they needed to be tweaked a bit. If anything I would of like to see this for all of the armies and special characters simply bringing a slightly modified stat line and some cool sounding equipment. That way people can build armies that not only play more how they want to play but also increase the chances for people to create chapters, regiments and craftworlds.

The death of bitz sales didnt help this either.

LonelyPath
06-03-2010, 00:59
If the current trend continues, either the Inquisition or Dark Angels will dominate the earlier parts of 6th edition and we'll see C: SM player bandwagon onto GK or DA.

Okay, I'm kidding, but we've already seen DA happen in reverse.

Word Bearer
06-03-2010, 01:25
As has been said I find the main problem is that certain Chapters are given their own Codices. The problem is that they're already a branch off from an existing army rather than an entirely new force like all the other codices and so (at least for business sense) HAVE to be better than the C:SM. Had Codex: Space Wolves been released and all the rules did was make them worse than the standard Codex, why would anyone ever bothered to use them? They'd simply continue to use the standard book, look at Codex: Dark Angels for example.

As for the Imperial Guard, they simply got the boost they'd been needing for a long time, in much the same way that the Orks did. In fact I think that both of these books are equally on par with each other and are probably the best written books out there.
I do feel for the Nid players out there (myself included in fact), but I still think that it's a perfectly good book, we just need to adapt to the changes a lot more than with some of the other codex updates.

azimaith
06-03-2010, 07:39
You cant go by what people say on forums.. its not even half the 40k players..

Wolves are far from broken..
Nibs can be very competetive..

The whole chaos thing is many years old now.
Base marines arent that good, the are a bit above average..
Daemons are what they were meant to be... they dropped the ball, but it could have been worse.

I play nids.. i love the new book, and ive had very good success with the army unlike others are crying about.

Id even go as far as saying not even 1/100 of the 40k players go to these forums.

I fail to see the logic in your argument.
In group A we have 100 people saying what they think.
In group B we have 100,000 people saying nothing at all.
So we should automatically assume group B is diametrically opposed to what group A says? Wouldn't it make more sense to assume that our hundred is at least somewhat representative of that 100,000, being part of them? This silent majority BS is not an argument. Its trying to use no evidence as evidence. If we have no idea what they think because they don't hang around forums then they're effectively useless in concerns over balance and rules. Not being here doesn't prove anything other than they're not here. And even that is still assuming that they aren't here at all.

I've seen this argument over and over again and it hasn't gotten any smarter no matter how many times its been vomited back out.

big squig
06-03-2010, 07:41
Did you list deffrollas as bad?

Lord of Worms
06-03-2010, 07:46
I've seen this argument over and over again and it hasn't gotten any smarter no matter how many times its been vomited back out.

Its like saying people who dont vote support the government in every decision it makes.

People dont usually come to these forums to complain per se, they come to discuss. If they are dissatisfied, they will voice that opinion.

I firmly believe that at least some people in GW are interested in making a good product, like Jervis. Now, bearing that in mind, we also know that the stupidity and poor design of the rules and codices has nothing to do with their sales (as far as they think), because most players quit before they even learn how to play properly. One can only hope that they start trying to retain customers again, and that means a good ruleset.

Hellebore
06-03-2010, 08:05
What will happen is that, just before the tau, orks, eldar, and necrons get a new codex they will radically change design philosophy for the umpteenth time because of the sheer amount of crap they chucked into the game and so none of those armies will get WS11 S23 A56 models called Tau Tauson, Orkadred, Eldanor or Ternold Arminator. Instead they'll be nerfed down to the new design paradigm but by the time the marine codicies come back around they'll have changed their minds again and marines will get uber leet stats. And the cycle will continue.

Mephiston is just a stupid joke. WS7 S6 T6 I7 W5!? Better than a great unclean one in all ways (imagine if a great unclean one could fly around the bloody table top striking at S10).

EDIT: Mephiston should at most be: WS6 BS5 S5 T5 W3 I6 A4 Ld10

Jervis Johnson had self control, but it's obvious that GW doesn't want self control.

Hellebore

Lord of Worms
06-03-2010, 08:11
Mephiston is just a stupid joke. WS7 S6 T6 I7 W5!? Better than a great unclean one in all ways (imagine if a great unclean one could fly around the bloody table top striking at S10).

EDIT: Mephiston should at most be: WS6 BS5 S5 T5 W3 I6 A4 Ld10

Jervis Johnson had self control, but it's obvious that GW doesn't want self control.

Hellebore

Im still hoping the Mephiston thing is just some horrible internet joke or something.:shifty::(

Hellebore
06-03-2010, 08:14
Since the Heavy 20 Punisher cannon I've come to realise that any time you hear an outrageously dumb rumour it's more than likely going to be true. Tervigons spewing out over 10 termigants a turn, doom of malanti, swarm lord. T5 giant wolf riding space wolves, lone space wolves immune to instant death, special abilities that give people like Ragnar Blackmane a bazillion attacks. The rumours for these things were horrifying and the reality wasn't much different.

Hellebore

Lord of Worms
06-03-2010, 08:16
Since the Heavy 20 Punisher cannon I've come to realise that any time you hear an outrageously dumb rumour it's more than likely going to be true. Tervigons spewing out over 10 termigants a turn, doom of malanti, swarm lord. T5 giant wolf riding space wolves, lone space wolves immune to instant death, special abilities that give people like Ragnar Blackmane a bazillion attacks. The rumours for these things were horrifying and the reality wasn't much different.

Hellebore

Screw this crap, you wanna play Epic over Vassal?;)

Hellebore
06-03-2010, 08:18
Lol, well I've never played vassal, but EPIC is something I've always admired. It and BFG are my two favourite systems. Enough variety without it being silly.

Course, I still like playing 30 mm scale, so I'm writing my own rules based around D10s where characters aren't obscene.

Hellebore

Earthbeard
06-03-2010, 10:02
What will happen is that, just before the tau, orks, eldar, and necrons get a new codex they will radically change design philosophy for the umpteenth time because of the sheer amount of crap they chucked into the game and so none of those armies will get WS11 S23 A56 models called Tau Tauson, Orkadred, Eldanor or Ternold Arminator. Instead they'll be nerfed down to the new design paradigm but by the time the marine codicies come back around they'll have changed their minds again and marines will get uber leet stats. And the cycle will continue.

Mephiston is just a stupid joke. WS7 S6 T6 I7 W5!? Better than a great unclean one in all ways (imagine if a great unclean one could fly around the bloody table top striking at S10).

EDIT: Mephiston should at most be: WS6 BS5 S5 T5 W3 I6 A4 Ld10

Jervis Johnson had self control, but it's obvious that GW doesn't want self control.

Hellebore

This, oh god this!

Rick Blaine
06-03-2010, 15:16
At what point would you draw the line? Would you call it quits?

I drew the line at being able to wipe out a whole unit if you only see one guy's knee poking from behind a bunker.

There must be something wrong with me, because I simply stopped playing. I don't come on here and nerdrage until I'm blue in the face every day like most unhappy gamers.

(I still hang out here because GW still makes the best models and I buy them just to paint)

Lord_Of_Bats
06-03-2010, 15:16
Space Marines get most of the attention because they sell more.

You know i remember a time when I knew more Eldar players than Marine players! Sure it was in the 90's.. but back then you saw more Eldar art in white dwarf and saw more promotion of non-marines.

I think thats the problem. The marines got focussed on more and more, and sold more and more as a consequence and on it has gone. Epic was once a core-game. It used to be played by heaps of people. Necromunda did well despite the lack of marines.

GW worked out how to sell marines well, but hasn't put the same effort into the Xenos. It's not that Xenos don't interest people. Elves haven't lost their popularity amongst the general population for example.

GW needs to actively sell the xenos more. Find the attributes about them that people like and push them in white dwarf and in the art and black library too. The xenomorphs in aliens are still massively popular for all sorts of collectables without people needing to 'identify with them' so that should not really be so big an issue.

Back when the Vyper jetbike first came out there were tons of Eldar players and Eldar miniatures were pretty frontline products. I'm sure they still do ok as Xenos go but still they arent what they were as they don't get pushed.

Also Marines are the most straightforward to play. They require less large armies as they have high points values. That actually means the potential profit from swarm armies like Tyranids is far larger if they could be sold in similar numbers.

GW has to consider helping out non-marine early players more. Help them more with tactics and getting xenos players out on the right foot. They needn't give them unbalanced advatages, just offset the initial advantage the high armour save high ease of use low number of purchases marines get.

Then i'm sure we'd see more profit for GW, better xenos products and sales, a greater number of people playing 40k who otherwise might not and marine sales likely would hardly shift for the sake of even say a 50% increase in xenos coverage in white dwarf. Maybe even more.

Griffindale
06-03-2010, 16:14
Dark Eldar will come out with a codex at the top of the power level and buffed from so many years of waiting and it will be the end of the world as we know it.

Hellebore
06-03-2010, 23:46
Dark Eldar will come out with a codex at the top of the power level and buffed from so many years of waiting and it will be the end of the world as we know it.

If they come within the 'make everything stupidly uber' period of design that currently exists then yes. We'll have WS10 BS10 I10 Archons with S5 T5. That is unless of course GW specifically reserve such rules stupidity for space marines only.:eyebrows:

Hellebore

MegaPope
07-03-2010, 02:32
Err...Mephiston's stats are those of a WFB Vampire Lord from way back - which is what he always has been FYI. He's also always had S10, due to the way Force Weapons worked back in 2ed. He's also always been able to move around like lighting (due to old psychic powers like The Gate, Quickening, Teleport etc etc).

The difference is back in 2ed, the operational reach and damage output of characters was vastly different to what we have now, because the core rules were different. I used to use Mephy a lot when I had a small Marine army way back (lovely mini, wish I hadn't sold it) and ideally, I'd want him to take on my oppenent's tooled up characters one on one. Bog him down with a reasonable squad and he'd be stuck for at least two turns (more if you managed to put the kibosh on his psychics). And of course there was the ever-present danger of being vapourised by a single lascannon blast (S9, 2D6 wounds, -6 save mod) so you had to think carefully about what you did with him.

The potential problems may arise because, if rumours are true, they've taken the 2ed version of Mephy, polished him up a bit, and dropped him virtually unchanged into 5ed. Now in 5ed, characters in general are OP - they can break entire units single-handed, often in only one combat phase (thank god sweeping advance got taken out!). Quite a lot of the worst offenders either have T5+ or EW, meaning that heavy weapons just aren't the threat they used to be, as they don't multiwound. The problem with psychics is exacerbated because there is no overarching mechanism for dealing with psychics in the game, just a few bits of wargear reserved for the fortunate.

I'm using Mephy as an example of lazy game design - and of course, much of this is still speculation. But I think it does illustrate the point that needs to b hammered home - do a good job on the core rules and the rest will follow. Following directly on from this is point 2 once you have a strong set of core rules, don't lard them with tons of exceptions. Or if you do, you make damn sure that those beneficial exceptions come with a hefty slice of penalising exceptions.

Regardless of their shortcomings, I'll bet the development team for 3ed didn't spend one half as much time, care and attention on the creation of those rules, than the development team for 2ed did on that ruleset. The committee based 'quick-fix' nature of 3ed was obvious to me from Day 1...

duffybear1988
07-03-2010, 02:43
To be quite honest im finding all of Games Worshops games a bit boring, and plan to give them up in a few months (I cant right now as I run a wargames club who play pretty much only GW stuff). I am sick of price hikes, poor rules, people (including me) moaning about bad rules and price hikes, the terrible quality of WD, the lack of any real support for specialist games and the lesser played armies (where is the SoB mission in the new battle missions book?), the way that everyone turns up to a tournie with almost the exact army (the last one I went to had about 9 CSM players who were all using lash/oblits/plaguemarines).

I have been playing GW stuff since 1998 and guess its time to move on and look for something a little different that doesnt require hundreds of pounds or hundreds of hours painting to put a usuable army on the table.

Which is why I have started Anima Tactics, and its why you should do it also...

there is no better way to show disatisfaction than by moving on to other games.

Orktavius
07-03-2010, 04:17
Having seen the blood angels book at my local GW today...I think that's about right for mephistons stats...that being said he costs an assload of points as do just about every blood angel model. Course....Land raiders can deepstrike in and all the rhino's are fast and the baal pred is fast, has scouting and from what I read can take a redeemer flame cannon -_- still...you PAY heavily for blood angels. It's just a new ultra elite SM army and doesn't really bug me more then the wolves did

Badger[Fr]
07-03-2010, 09:14
Since the Heavy 20 Punisher cannon I've come to realise that any time you hear an outrageously dumb rumour it's more than likely going to be true. Tervigons spewing out over 10 termigants a turn, doom of malanti, swarm lord. T5 giant wolf riding space wolves, lone space wolves immune to instant death, special abilities that give people like Ragnar Blackmane a bazillion attacks. The rumours for these things were horrifying and the reality wasn't much different.

And the funny thing is, these OOT units are more often than not disappointing on the tabletop.

God, am I the only one to remember how insanely broken 4th and 3rd Editions were? Core rules that didn't make sense (the entire 3rd Edition ruleset, or the bias towards Skimmers, Monstruous Creatures, and Rending Weapons in 4th), Invicible Holo-Falcons, and of course, the infamous CWE and 3.5 CSM Codices. And some people still think the game is getting worse?

nedius
07-03-2010, 09:53
;4459558']And the funny thing is, these OOT units are more often than not disappointing on the tabletop.

God, am I the only one to remember how insanely broken 4th and 3rd Editions were? Core rules that didn't make sense (the entire 3rd Edition ruleset, or the bias towards Skimmers, Monstruous Creatures, and Rending Weapons in 4th), Invicible Holo-Falcons, and of course, the infamous CWE and 3.5 CSM Codices. And some people still think the game is getting worse?

I think mostly the tread is about codexes getting worse...

They fixed the main game, and now seem to be attmepting to break it again via the codexes.

It'll give them a good excuse to make a new version in the next couple of years - "Well, since people felt that SWs and BAs were so over powered, we felt we needed to address these imabalances, so have brought you the new improved 40k.6! That's be £60 for the main game, about another £50-£100 to buy the stuff you need to make your army work again, oh, and £50 for some of the new releases we've added that are the new 'uber'!"

Man, I sound cynical...

Juggalo
07-03-2010, 10:05
Every GW codex comes out with steaming piles because they don't seriously playtest anything (the alternative is so much worse.)

Guard have Commissars, Punishers, Lord Commissars, Every special upgrade character, storm troopers, and rough riders.


Commissars are awesome, and several of the upgrade characters are quite good. STs are overpriced by 2-3 points a model, but are pretty good otherwise. And there are plenty of folks who find the roughriders useful. But yes, I agree with your overall sentiment.

the1stpip
07-03-2010, 10:34
What will I do?

Well, I havent played with my Chaos army since the new codex came out. I think that says it all.

Poseidal
07-03-2010, 11:20
It sounds like Warhammer 7th ediion all over again. Great core rules (7th is much better to play than any recent 40k edition) ruined by unbalanced army books.

These new stats are getting more extreme than the 2nd ed ones, and back then you were more limited with what your stats could do. (n that environment, a single Heavy Bolter wound could kill a character or seriously dent a monster, and CC monsters could only kill what you fed them into base t base).

Askari
07-03-2010, 12:52
;4459558']The infamous CWE and 3.5 CSM Codices. And some people still think the game is getting worse?

3rd Edition was quite bad admittedly, but once it got into 4th it was alright, though 5th as a core set is better.

Craftworld Eldar and Chaos 3.5 is nothing to the power we have now.

Seriously, get a copy of those old books and make up an army. Now grab up a couple of the current edition books and make up an army. With average rolling, the new book will trounce the old one.

Regardless, it isn't the power which matters, it's the sheer childish fanboyism. Space Wolves riding space wolves? Super Space Vampire that can take on Star Gods? Heavy 20 guns? a Heavy Bolter is fast firing, and Assault Cannon is utterly horrendous... what the hell kind of speed does a Heavy 20 gun fire at?

ColonalKlink
07-03-2010, 14:41
if that heavy 20 gun is red...

jt.glass
07-03-2010, 15:12
Heavy 20 guns? a Heavy Bolter is fast firing, and Assault Cannon is utterly horrendous... what the hell kind of speed does a Heavy 20 gun fire at?Are you really trying to suggest that the number of dice you roll is proportional to cyclic rate? That's preposterous.


jt.

Badger[Fr]
07-03-2010, 15:27
Craftworld Eldar and Chaos 3.5 is nothing to the power we have now.
The power gap between these two Codices and other armies was by far wider than any discrepancy we may have now. Doom Siren alone makes even Lash and JotWW look underpowered. I have yet to see a couple of army builds dominate the whole game the way 4th Edition Nidzilla and Flying Circus did.



Seriously, get a copy of those old books and make up an army. Now grab up a couple of the current edition books and make up an army. With average rolling, the new book will trounce the old one.

If you play by 5th Edition rules? Of course it will, but it doesn't mean anything. Now, try to see how well the average mechanized, melta-toting 5th Edition army fare under the horrible 3rd/4th Edition vehicle rules. It won't end well.

carldooley
07-03-2010, 15:38
what the hell kind of speed does a Heavy 20 gun fire at?

metalstorm arrives at last!!!

MalusCalibur
07-03-2010, 15:48
I think the best way to avoid drowning in ones own cynicism (and I myself have done so many times) is to just have fun with the game regardless. Avoid tournaments and named characters (nothing screams 'uncreative dullard' like fielding a special character), and take whatever army and units appeal. I think the Punisher is a great example of this - all I ever hear is how bad it supposedly is, and that mathematically other choices outperform it. So what? I want a tank with a freaking gatling cannon on it, because it's AWESOME. 20 shots might be a few too many, but I love the potential for carnage there. Sure, it'll miss most of them...but it might not. Dice don't always roll the average, after all.
Though I am one to agree with the wolf-riding Space Marines as being utterly ludicrous. But then again, I'm not exactly a fan of Space Wolves anyway.

So long as you're playing the game with friends, there should be no reason to get too upset about what books are being updated ahead of others, or what units are silly. 40K is never going to be a perfectly balanced game, and was never really intended to be used in tournaments and the like.
Just leave Marneus Calgar and his ilk out of your army!

*My 2 pennies*