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Asher
05-03-2010, 23:09
At first I was inclined to say Iron Hands, as there is hardly any evidence of their existence in the current SM codex.

But for me Raven Guard takes the cake! I always seem to forget that they are a 1st founding chapter even; that is when I remember them at all!

Iron Hands have some interessting themes, but Raven Guard seem to be neglcted by GW to the point, that they don't even posses much of a character, unfortunately.

naloth
05-03-2010, 23:12
Iron Hands have some interessting themes, but Raven Guard seem to be neglcted by GW to the point, that they don't even posses much of a character, unfortunately.

Like Shrike and his fleet granting option? Sure, it would work much better if SM were more assault oriented (say bolter, pistol, CC like Grey Wolves) but it's still a good ability.

bigcheese76
05-03-2010, 23:12
I can see what you mean although there is very little mention of any of the chapters that arent Ultramarines, in comparison. Sometimes I wonder wether Codex Space Marines should have just been renamed Codex Ultramarines.

Samus_aran115
05-03-2010, 23:13
The night lords. Totally under rated. I've heard like nothing about them.

Archangel_Ruined
05-03-2010, 23:15
But it does raise the sticky subject of fleeting assault terminators... I quite like the 'neglected' nature of the iron hands, it means that any iron hands armies you run into tend to be well thought out, well modelled and thoroughly fluffy. The Night Lords are also very light on rules and special characters, so it isn't just the loyalists.

Khar
05-03-2010, 23:15
Iron Hands, for sure. Raven Guard have their special character at least. Iron Hands have nothing. Even in colour section of the codex they occupy less space than rest of first founding chapters - they're more or less squeezed between some successors.

As for traitor legions: Alpha Legion takes the prize. There's literally nothing in the codex to represent them properly.

blake
05-03-2010, 23:16
I can see what you mean although there is very little mention of any of the chapters that arent Ultramarines, in comparison. Sometimes I wonder wether Codex Space Marines should have just been renamed Codex Ultramarines.

NEWS FLASH: Codex - SM was actually going to be called Codex Ultramarines but they decided to throw in a few more characters and make it C:SM. Salamanders take the cake atm for most popular SM 1st founding chapter out of this codex. Vulkan ftw...

Iron Hands got a small nod with the introduction of Master of the Forge option for HQ, but its still the least mentioned or supported 1st founding chapter - that's still loyal.

chromedog
05-03-2010, 23:20
Given how many rules they 'brought' back from 2nd ed for 5th edition 40k, it's not unreasonable that the codex be called Codex:Ultramarines in addition to that.

Many 1st founding chapters have been ignored since RT. They just mix it up every so often to make some less neglected.

Lord of Worms
05-03-2010, 23:23
Iron Hands are definitely the most neglected first founding legion. They had a tactical squad box, a shoulder-pad line, and Lit Ed Iron Father model. That`s it. At least there`s the Master of the Forge option in the codex.

wazatdingder
05-03-2010, 23:26
I say Dark Angels. They got their own book and they're still lame as hell.

Samus_aran115
05-03-2010, 23:29
I say Dark Angels. They got their own book and they're still lame as hell.

lol, Inorite? They still stink.

Corrode
05-03-2010, 23:45
It's a toss-up between Raven Guard and Iron Hands. Raven Guard have Shrike, Iron Hands have the Iron Hands squad box. Neither has shoulder pads available. Raven Guard are at least getting the FW book about them, so I'm gonna go with Iron Hands; they're both kinda stuck in limbo though.

Lord of Worms
06-03-2010, 00:09
I say Dark Angels. They got their own book and they're still lame as hell.

Their primarch is named after a British closeted homosexual poet writing about his terrible secret. :wtf:
They were screwed from the start.

Noserenda
06-03-2010, 00:27
Iron Hands. Mostly due to the Poster which was at one time hanging in Warhammer world advertising marines. It featured 9 Marine Chapters on it. 8 of these were the loyalist Legions but instead of Iron hands it featured Crimson fists...

Needless to say the Iron Hands player with us has since been endlessly ribbed about this :angel:

Inquisitor Engel
06-03-2010, 00:29
Iron Hands, for sure. Raven Guard have their special character at least. Iron Hands have nothing. Even in colour section of the codex they occupy less space than rest of first founding chapters - they're more or less squeezed between some successors.

The Imperial Fists have just as much space dedicated to models, though they do have a special character, but since everyone plays him as someone else... meh.

Sparowl
06-03-2010, 01:03
Iron Hands are, if you excuse the pun, hands down the most neglected.

I feel like Imperial Fists got a bit of the shaft in the Codex: Ultramarines book, though.

We basically get the "second" best chapter status, behind the "OMG!ULTRAMARINES!WOWZER!" chapter. I especially disliked the "second most codex chapter", since Ultramarines have done more to move away from the Codex Astartes then the Imperial Fists have (Tyranic War Veterns? Not in the original Codex, I'm sure).

Pretty much all of the chapters that don't have their own books should be pretty annoyed by Codex: Ultramarines, though. Because apparently we're only good enough to be saved by the smurf marines.

SandQueen
06-03-2010, 01:16
Night Lords.

Most of the first founding groups have a special character, a unit that fits them better than anyone, or some specially made models from GW (Iron Hands tactical squad, noise marines etc). What do night lords have? Bat Hats. Yes, that's right, bat hats. Not extensive cybernetic limbs, not a special codex entry. all they get is some rediculous head gear.

Lord of Worms
06-03-2010, 01:21
Night Lords.

Most of the first founding groups have a special character, a unit that fits them better than anyone, or some specially made models from GW (Iron Hands tactical squad, noise marines etc). What do night lords have? Bat Hats. Yes, that's right, bat hats. Not extensive cybernetic limbs, not a special codex entry. all they get is some rediculous head gear.

In 2nd Ed, they were the studio army scheme for the standard unmarked marines.

SandQueen
06-03-2010, 01:27
In 2nd Ed, they were the studio army scheme for the standard unmarked marines.

you see? They're supposed to be NIGHT LORDS:skull: FEAR THE DARK! Not "Well we've got bats and a bad attitude but we're just not as motivated as those black legion guys" :angel:

LonelyPath
06-03-2010, 01:45
Out of those with a actual codex, Dark Angels. Out of those condencsed into C: SM, Iron Hands.

Lord of Worms
06-03-2010, 01:50
Not "Well we've got bats and a bad attitude but we're just not as motivated as those black legion guys" :angel:

It`s because their primarch was a bi-polar emo who thought he was Batman. :p
If my father was like that, I wouldn`t be very motivated either.

SandQueen
06-03-2010, 01:53
It`s because their primarch was a bi-polar emo who thought he was Batman. :p
If my father was like that, I wouldn`t be very motivated either.

lol'd :p

that was good

The Marshel
06-03-2010, 01:59
out of the loyalist legions, iron hands most diffidently, with raven guard not far behind

can't comment on the traitors though

Word Bearer
06-03-2010, 02:04
If you want to start including the Traitor's then I'd say that Word Bearers and Alpha Legion beat the Night Lords...we'd kill for some funky Bat hats!

Pinocchio
06-03-2010, 02:04
iron hands could be represented using space wolf codex very well, sarge with terminator armour, tecmarines that makes vehicle faster, no combat squads (tribal organization like the space wolf)

overall the chaos codex left the more first founding legions alone
iron warriors with no basilisk
alpha legion disappeared ( the irony...)
word bearers incapable of summoning a decent deamon
night lords transformed into the batman mahreens

Project2501
06-03-2010, 02:06
I'm goin to go with alpha legion.

Lord of Worms
06-03-2010, 02:09
I'm goin to go with alpha legion.

That`s a good point. But I think that was sort of deliberate, rather than simple neglect. They wanted them to be obscure, and often the only background mentioned was how some factions in the Imperium doubted they ever existed.

Leftenant Gashrog
06-03-2010, 02:43
Many 1st founding chapters have been ignored since RT.

... The only 1st Founding chapters to have been ignored since RT are the Valedictors and Desert Lions - every chapter which currently holds the status of 1st Founding had far more written (both fluff and rules) about it in 2nd edition than it ever did in RT.

I'd say its a toss-up between Alpha Legion or Iron Hands since both merit dedicated rules and neither has them - unless you count the Siege of Vraks Renegade Militia list.

TimLeeson
06-03-2010, 04:47
Another vote for Iron Hands here. Shame as I think they embody a visual theme that isnt represented in other marine armies ; that of the hardcore gritty cyborg soldier motif. I imagine a plastic upgrade kit would be awesome with all the bionics, robotic limbs and admech gear..sorta like the current boxset they have but more extreme and well, actually good.

Project2501
06-03-2010, 05:03
Iron hands can still be easily portrayed with the current SM codex with master of the forge/techmarines/thunderfire cannon.

Everyone else has/had a special character at least.

Alpha legion has/had... nothing. Only cultists in 3.5. They couldn't even summon demons, only the cultists could.



Edit:forgot thunderfire cannon.

Tomalock
06-03-2010, 05:27
I was a little suprised that the Imperial Fists didn't even rate a single painted marine beyond Lysander. It irked me enough to pull out my books and of all the current books in the range, cities of death was the last color picture I could find of the Imperial Fists. There is a picture of some marines in the LRB that appear to be fists, but of course they are black and white.

I dont see how anyone can argue that the raven guard are underrepresented. They have 8 painted models in the showcase section and a whole battle scene in the back cover. The Imperial fists get a single model. Granted, I could only find one Iron Hands model and they didnt rate their own character, but come on, the Imperial Fists defend Terra, its not like they are from some backwater sector handing out welfare checks to space honkys. I just wish GW would have a little pride with the chapters they build up in the fluff. Seriously, they gave how many no-name chapters a painted marine in the showcase? The freaking Silver Skulls got 2 painted marines. Has anyone ever heard of them? Is there a reason they stole the Grey Knights paint scheme? Bah, I'm going to go in the corner and rage at the internet some more now.

mughi3
06-03-2010, 06:25
Neglected in 5th-
loyalist
-iron hands
everybody else either has a special character unlock or a codex.

Traitor legions
.iron warriors
.night lords
.alpha legion
.word bearers


I still have all my volumes of index astartes so making a true fluffy list of the first founding chapters is very do-able.

Project2501
06-03-2010, 06:36
Neglected in 5th-
loyalist
-iron hands
everybody else either has a special character unlock or a codex.

Traitor legions
.iron warriors
.night lords
.alpha legion
.word bearers


I still have all my volumes of index astartes so making a true fluffy list of the first founding chapters is very do-able.


http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/armySubUnitCats.jsp?catId=cat1020025&rootCatGameStyle=


You're going to have to remove Night Lords and Iron Warriors if you're going by 5th.

vladsimpaler
06-03-2010, 06:54
The Crimson Fists or the Rainbow Warriors. ;)

Sternguard777
06-03-2010, 07:05
You're all wrong the most neglected first founding chapters are the ones from legions #2 and #11. they don't even have names.:rolleyes:

laudarkul
06-03-2010, 07:27
Iron Hands and Night Lords seems for me the most neglected chapters. Those chapters almost have nothing. Close by are the Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors and Imperial Fists Chapters (maybe they'll be in one big codex with BT and CF).
But maybe the Legions codexes will change this...

Lord of Worms
06-03-2010, 07:46
Iron Hands and Night Lords seems for me the most neglected chapters. Those chapters almost have nothing. Close by are the Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors and Imperial Fists Chapters (maybe they'll be in one big codex with BT and CF).
But maybe the Legions codexes will change this...

Imperial Fists have a character with stats depicting two stages of his career that eventually got lost in the warp, travelled through the future and popped out in the present. Neglected? Lysander is in direct competition with Marneus Calgar for KING OF THE UNIVERSE and heir to the dual crowns of Chuck Norris and Bob Saget.

weirdmaster
06-03-2010, 07:59
I'd have to say the Dark Angels. Granted, they have some sweet-looking special characters models and have the Deathwing and Ravenwing but seemingly precious little else.

The Imperial Fists of course get the shaft because their Primarch disagreed with the mightly Roboute Gulliman. At least Dorn actually fought alongside the Emperor against Horus. And where was Gulliman? Playing hide-and-go-seek with the Alpha Legion! A Legion he didn't like, if that insult he delivered to their Primarch was any indication. So much for his vaulted tactical brilliance. And the Imperial Fists were the legion who acted as the Emperor's guard, not the Ultramarines, so why are they getting little to no love?

As for the Night Lords, the Word Bearers and the Alpha Legion: I again agree that these guys get little to no love from GW. Not everyone can be Huron Blackheart and the Red Corsaris, after all.

Lord of Worms
06-03-2010, 08:05
Not everyone can be Huron Blackheart and the Red Corsaris, after all.

Those guys are clearly somebody from the Studios personal army in the nineties. I wonder whose?

Lord_Of_Bats
06-03-2010, 16:34
Night Lords.

Most of the first founding groups have a special character, a unit that fits them better than anyone, or some specially made models from GW (Iron Hands tactical squad, noise marines etc). What do night lords have? Bat Hats. Yes, that's right, bat hats. Not extensive cybernetic limbs, not a special codex entry. all they get is some rediculous head gear.

Yeah but the bat-hats look great in the artworks... but on the miniatures the small cool wings are instead so large and awkward they should get some sort of windsurfing special attack by using them as sails!

Edit: oh and i remember when the red corsairs were alien-psychic-influenced traitors but not substantially chaos worshippers, having to pay extra points for daemons etc and getting better access to more normally imperium-only gear. Till an Inferno Magazines poorly written story had Huron as some typical mustache twirling chaos lord.

Archangel_Ruined
06-03-2010, 17:21
The model doesn't even have a moustache, they missed a trick there... The nightlords helmets are a pretty crap consolation for years of neglect, back in 2nd they got much more love, all of the box art showed them (lightning bolts = made of win).

Chaos Undecided
06-03-2010, 17:24
Even with Lysander the Imperial Fists have it pretty bad they're little more than yellow ultramarines these days, and are pretty much over shadowed in the post heresy fluff by their successor chapters.

kevhooper
06-03-2010, 17:30
well as a 2nd founding Raven Guard player i feel like we definately got the shaft along with the Iron Hands. but in all honesty anyone who isn't Ultramarines got bummed! as for the chaos, if you're one of the "undivided" legions you're bummed.... Alpha Legion, Night Lords, Iron Warriors. Would be cool to see any and all of the legions (loyalist or chaos) got more coverage in general. the current SM codex is pretty much spot on, so just character updates or someting along that lines to do with you're chosen chapter (easily tailored if you happen to be a further on founding). but then what do i know as a humble customer.....

Archangel_Ruined
06-03-2010, 17:30
They're pretty much yellow ultramarines in all of the fluff since the Heresy, they're a straight laced, to the letter codex chapter. Thanks to Guillemans little side project as an author 99% of all marines are just ultramarines in another colour.

Hasan ibn Sabbah
06-03-2010, 17:30
I would go with Alpha Legion, it's just impossible to make fluffy army of them. No cultists, no special characters, nothing.

Whith loyalists, Iron Hands but since I always felt that the whole Idea of "Super Humans feeling not super enough" is a bit dumb. I jus wonder, seeing how many dreadnoughts can be put in new BA list, what would be done to IH to represent their love for dreads... dread tactcal squads?

Archangel_Ruined
06-03-2010, 17:37
You can make quite fluffy alpha legion lists with the DH list, guard as cultists, hosts as summoned nastiness and GK's as your few marines orchestrating things. It's never a good sign when the best way to represent your army isn't with their own codex though...

Hasan ibn Sabbah
06-03-2010, 18:11
In that way you can make any army, even squats. The point is that GW screwed chaos legions and DA with experimental codexes, now probably the best way to make Alpha legion is to make Ultrasmurfs list, paint them like ultrasmurfs and say that this is Alpha Legion army from late Horus Heresy just after Alpharius got killed.

InsideReticle
06-03-2010, 21:34
C:SM does say that it's dedicated to describing the Ultramarines and those who follow their example... pretty weak stuff.

Anyway, the only reason everybody in the Imperium thinks ultramarines are so neat is because they didn't all die off actually fighting Horus, being off doing their own thing or whatever. Lots more Ultras and ultra successors means more PR.

Gray Hunter
09-03-2010, 07:25
What about Space Wolves? We haven't had a new Codex or any new models since... oh wait. Sorry. Old habits and all that. :D

I'd have to say Iron Hands. Seriously, no special character in the Codex? They could have done something really cool (like he's mostly bionic) and then made a miniature later in the specialist range if they were pushed for time, but no.

Well, at least we have White Dwarf as a source of cool new rules and fluff, right? Oh wait, back to the old habits...

Carkey
09-03-2010, 08:17
Anyway, the only reason everybody in the Imperium thinks ultramarines are so neat is because they didn't all die off actually fighting Horus, being off doing their own thing or whatever.

Yeah Guilliman is supposed to be a strategic genius. Where was he when the Horus Heresy broke out? Oh, that's right, the other side of the galaxy.

I'd have to say either the Imperial Fists or the Iron Hands (anyone see a common theme?). The Fists are yellow smurfs and the Iron Hands are barely known. Maybe GW hates the Iron Hands because their Primarch was so easily killed by Fulgrim.

ltsobel
09-03-2010, 08:31
Silver skulls were one of the original chapters in RT, along with Rainbow Warriors, Blood Drinkers and Flesh Eaters they have been relegated (although i think last two are now BA successors?) I was having a look at RT last night also seem to mention a 'Dark Brotherhood' chapter hmm.

In terms of first founding id say Iron Hands or Imperial Fists. Imperial fists also have the problem that two of their successor chapters get/got much more love - Crimsons fists and Black Templars.

Grimbad
09-03-2010, 08:40
Iron Hands. I'd love to see them get their own codex. It would be a refreshing change from the standard GW formula:
-Take Space Marines.
-Give them flowing clothing- tabards, togas, robes wolf pelts, wings.
-Toss in a lot of running legs, everyone likes those better than battle-crouched ones.
-Emphasize close combat.
(except for dark angels, who got robes and running legs but no close combat)
Iron hands on the other hand... tanks, guns, bionics, servo-arms, cables. The no-nonsense look. Bolters with scopes. I'd love to see them as a marine chapter not focused on close combat but on short range infantry firepower (using toughened tactical squads, perhaps with master-crafted bolters) and long ranged heavy support.

AndrewGPaul
09-03-2010, 09:10
Yeah Guilliman is supposed to be a strategic genius. Where was he when the Horus Heresy broke out? Oh, that's right, the other side of the galaxy.

Because that's where Ultramar, and thus the end of the Legion's logistics trail is, and more importantly, because that's where Horus sent him. It doesn't matter how much of a genius you are if the guy giving your orders is a traitor and sends you out the way.

Norsehawk
09-03-2010, 09:12
Word Bearers and Alpha Legion are tied for the worst support from GW. Both have no special characters in the codex, and the only material support they have ever received are shoulder pads.
Nightlords at least got bat wing helmets and a produced hero, shoulder pads and the left arm.

As for Loyalists, That's a hard one. Iron hands at least got all those cybernetic arms and legs. But they have no special character that they can call their own in the rules. White Scars have a leader model, but he only comes on foot when he would in just about every case be fielded on his bike instead. Dark Angels have a ton of model support, but seem to be always hamstrung by the rules they are given. Imperial Fists have Lysander and decent enough rules. Raven Guard have Shrike and good rules for him.

I would have to say that the White Scars get the nod for being the most neglected first Founding loyalist chapter.

Logan_uc
09-03-2010, 09:27
Iron hands are a codex chapter arent they? so what more do they need,in 5th you can use them better than ever beffore.

Now Alfa Legion, Night Lords, Iron Warriors, Word Bearers (WB dont even have there color scheme, in the mid of a bazilion renegades) cant be represented, they are veteran and specialised armies.

But C.CSM dosent let you represent this, and the fluff is vague at best, there speciality can well be to play ping-pong with there lower parts form the point of view of C:CSM

CherryMan
09-03-2010, 18:29
Id say Iron hands, but I cant see them getting their own dex thou. Blood Angels seem to have tagged the "all units FNP for the win" rule, which would have suited a army of half super humans - half machine dudes:D

Asher
09-03-2010, 18:34
Id say Iron hands, but I cant see them getting their own dex thou. Blood Angels seem to have tagged the "all units FNP for the win" rule, which would have suited a army of half super humans - half machine dudes:D

I agree; the BA codex can be a good basis for a Iron Hands army. With a little imagination lots of rules can be 'explaned'.


The thing that bugs me with Ravenguard is, that they are supposed to be master infiltrators and specialinzing on distruption, sabotation and lightningstrike tactics. Rules-wise they are simply glorified sprinters; and that's a bit underwhelming.

Leftenant Gashrog
09-03-2010, 18:49
Iron hands are a codex chapter arent they? so what more do they need,in 5th you can use them better than ever beffore.


No they aren't, they are closer to the Space Wolves in regards to company structure (each Iron Hand Clan Company is standalone and handles its own recruiting, you don't get promoted from one company to another), also fluffwise the Iron Hands rarely field Terminator squads, instead preferring to issue Terminator Armour to the sergeants of power armoured squads - something that cannot be done with the vanilla dex.


Silver skulls were one of the original chapters in RT, along with Rainbow Warriors, Blood Drinkers and Flesh Eaters they have been relegated (although i think last two are now BA successors?) I was having a look at RT last night also seem to mention a 'Dark Brotherhood' chapter hmm.


Silver Skulls have had quite a few fluff mentions over the years, including in the current codex - as well as possibly the most colour schemes of any loyalist chapter.

Rainbow Warriors seemingly get a mention in the current 'dex, their chapter badge appears on the homeworld map but with purged/classified in place of the chapter name.

There was a Dark Brotherhood army in the 3rd edition dex.

Blood Drinkers and Flesh Tearers are both now BA successors and are always listed when such things are brought up.

By far the most neglected of the original chapters is the Flesh Eaters, not only have they not appeared in any game publication (tho they do get a name drop in on of Swallows books) since 2e came out, but the Flesh Tearers actually stole their distinctive pinky red colour and use of white for the chapter badge (FT were originally black and yellow)

Note of course that there was nothing in the RT rulebook to suggest that all 13 chapters therein were 1st Founding.

Drakcore Bloodtear
09-03-2010, 19:12
I collect DA, Iron Hands, Night Lords and often use my Iron Hands as Iron Warriors

Why GW have you forsaken me? :(

sabreu
09-03-2010, 19:52
Meh. None of the chapter's are 'neglected'. Don't cry over models that never existed, or pander for unique units that never did either. All of the chapters started off as simple color swaps and only with development did the others get more uniquer. and naff stuff

::grumble grumble::

TheMav80
09-03-2010, 23:55
Iron Hands are one of the chapters that really are better represented by Space Wolves.

You get a Dreadnought HQ, Wolf Guard Terminators leading tactical squads, acute senses for cybernetic enhancements too.

The only thing Iron Hands get out of C:SM is the Master of the Forge. In my opinion this isn't enough to off set the other features.

Also, I could be mistaken, I don't think the Hands have more dreads than any other chapter. I think they might have more venerables, and some of those are leaders of clans, instead of being thrown in stasis.

Archangel_Ruined
10-03-2010, 00:01
I thought the Iron hands had 6 dreads, total. Some obscenely low, impossible by fluff, daft number for the techiest army this side of the Ad Mech themselves. (This may have been retconned or imagined, I'm getting both old and forgetful)

borithan
10-03-2010, 00:06
Those guys are clearly somebody from the Studios personal army in the nineties. I wonder whose?Well, Huron Blackheart was introduced during the late 80s with the RT stuff (article on the Badab War)... I am not sure when they became the Red Corsairs, but but his renegade Space Marines have a long pedigree.